Patterned Self-Defense Technique Fails: Store Clerk Shot, Criminal Escapes

[Admin]

Great article:
Watch video and read original here:
http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/02/robert-farago/armed-encounter-denvers-kung-fu-clerk-comes-a-cropper/#more-33060

"What’s wrong with this sentence: “Being trained in martial arts, Edri
tried to disarm the robber.” I mean, if that’s all you knew about the
story, would you approve or disapprove of Alethea Edri’s decision to
take on an armed robber at Denver’s Colefax Avenue Video One store?
Let’s add some details, you make up your mind, and THEN watch the
video. Starting with this: the robber entered the store, pointed a gun
at Ms Edri at nearasdammit point blank range and told her to get on
the floor . . .

That’s not good. Why would he tell he to get on the floor instead of
the usual “Gimme the money”? But judging from the video [which you'll
watch in a minute], Edri was standing in front of a plate glass window
when the robber gave her the command. Not herded into a back room or
standing behind the counter.

OK, so Edri is a trained martial artist. She doesn’t look like one, or
move like one, or talk like one, but let’s assume she is one. A really
good one. If you have mad martial arts skills and the assailant was
within spitting distance, would you, at that point, attack with your
hands?

It’s a good time to do so, right? Fight early and fight viciously.
“I threw the bag down and grabbed the gun and stepped up to hit him in
the jugular,” said Edri, manager of Video One.

The problem is she missed because she says the gunman is left-handed.
“I’m used to disarming a right-handed person,” said Edri.

So I guess we could say that didn’t work out so well for Edri. The
assailant “stepped back” and shot her.

Or maybe Edri did the right thing. The bullet was a through-and-
though, in one side of her arm and out the other. She lived to tell
the tale. Isn’t that all that matters?

Then again, maybe it was stupid. Maybe she should have just hit the
deck and let the robbery play out. Most vide store robberies are not
assassinations. Judgment call? You tell me. While I tell you [who
hasn't watched the vide yet] this: post-incident, she insults the
robber. Calls him stupid. A man who owns a gun, isn’t afraid to use
it, remains at liberty and, presumably, owns a TV. And/or knows people
who do.

Edri says she’s now afraid of being shot. Be afraid Ms. Edri, be very
afraid. And now would be a good time to get a CCW permit. Perhaps.
What good would a gun have done in this situation? Enquiring minds
want to know."
=============

What do you think? Was her training appropriate? Is any training
appropriate?
Should she have acted at all?
Comment on our Forum

[Art Reynolds]

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 8:49 PM, Art Reynolds <awrey...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am not afraid of guns,But i am afraid of getting shot.Ya me to.we
practice a lot of gun and knife stuff,it never looks good,it rarely
gos as planned.it sucks! my daughter just started a job working a cash
register at a pizza shop. i told her if someone comes in to rob the
place,open the register,put your hands up,step away from the
register,be quiet,stay out of there way, make it quick and easy for
them to get the money and split. that video store women was real
lucky!!!

On Feb 21, 1:34 pm, Admin <attackpr...@mail.websitewizard.com> wrote:
> Great article:

> Watch video and read original here:http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/02/robert-farago/armed-encounter-de...

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[Art Reynolds]

I am not afraid of guns,But i am afraid of getting shot.Ya me to.we
practice a lot of gun and knife stuff,it never looks good,it rarely
gos as planned.it sucks! my daughter just started a job working a cash
register at a pizza shop. i told her if someone comes in to rob the
place,open the register,put your hands up,step away from the
register,be quiet,stay out of there way, make it quick and easy for
them to get the money and split. that video store women was real
lucky!!!

On Feb 21, 1:34 pm, Admin <attackpr...@mail.websitewizard.com> wrote:

> Great article:
> Watch video and read original here:http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/02/robert-farago/armed-encounter-de...

[Ari]

Lucky? Yes--lucky that despite obviously inadequate (non-adaptive)
training, she got shot "only" in the arm.

Also lucky in that the general mindset she portrays in the news clip
(caveat: an edited news clip can make a person "seem" however the
editors/producers want her to seem, so what's portrayed in the clip
may not be reflective of her actual personality/mindset/outlook--but
it's all we have to go on) could easily get her killed and has gotten
others killed. Sounds like her mental model for self-defense
situations was primarily action movies, not reality, and her
inadequate martial arts training did nothing to change that (perhaps
because she never worked against chaotic/resistant situations in
training, and so she never truly failed to be successful in training--
just like heroes in movies never fatally screw up). This opens a whole
can of worms: Can unrealistic martial arts training actually put the
students in MORE danger than if they knew nothing? Does it make them
more likely to attempt something stupid? This is why John repeatedly
references in every class the true chaos and unpredictability of real
violence, so that his students get the RIGHT mindset about such
situations and understand their true gravity and unpredictability.

Regarding her decision to resist, I'm not sure that's such a clear-cut
judgement. The robber did tell her to get on the floor. That's often a
precursor to an execution. She may have truly felt (based on his
request and the totality of the situation) that he was going to kill
her. Then again, maybe not. Maybe he just wanted to render her less
able to chase him or reach for a phone or alarm.

In 20/20 hindsight, the fact that the robber stopped at shooting her
"only" in the arm (unknown whether this was intentional or an
unintended result of the struggle over the gun) shows that he likely
never had any intention of killing her. This is a general fact about
criminals that people often don't understand: We're largely powerless
to change a criminal's intentions. If a criminal commits his crime
with the full intention of killing the victim, generally nothing we do
or say will change that outcome unless we can render the criminal
incapable of carrying it out, or escape before he has full control. If
a criminal goes in with NO intention of killing (i.e. he wants to
"limit his liability" to robbery, rape, etc. and not potentially face
a murder rap), we generally won't change his mind unless we put HIM in
fear for his safety (i.e. force him to defend himself) or royally piss
him off or "chump" him in front of his buddies (easier to do with some
less stable characters). Then there's the "tweaker" in desperate need
of drugs or insane criminal whose actions are highly unpredictable and
who may kill out of startle, frustration or hallucination, despite
having no initial intention to do so (or he simply doesn't care either
way). That's why we always repeat, "If you see a GUN, RUN!!! (if at
all possible)" People ask, "What if he shoots at you for running
away?" General fact: If he tries to kill you for trying to escape
(putting him in no danger--we're talking about running here, not
attacking him), he almost certainly would have killed you point-blank
at some point had you NOT tried to escape. Usually.

So, in this case, it wasn't clear to the victim exactly what the
robber's intentions were. He was masked, which could have meant he
would be less hesitant to kill her in full view of the window (because
it would be difficult for witnesses to identify him). I don't think
it's clear from the video whether the robber demanded money first or
told her to get on the floor first, or if he already had the money
before telling her to hit the deck. It's also not clear whether she
might have had a way to escape without attacking the robber, or
whether she was cornered.

Art, in general, I think your advice is sound. You might want to add
something about GETTING OUT if she has a clear path to escape, after
opening the register (trying to escape before opening the register
might piss them off and threaten their success). Again, if the robbers
just want the money and have no intention of killing anyone, they'll
likely let her run. What she should NOT do (generally) is cooperate
with robbers' demands to move into the back of the store, or anything
else that sounds like a prelude to an execution or torture. The
general idea in such situations is to let the armed robbers get what
they came for, as long as what they came for was money/goods only. In
such a case, they'll typically want to get in, get the loot, and get
out as quickly and cleanly as possible. If they came in with other
ideas, or if they're "tweaking" to the point of losing control and
shooting someone accidentally or out of spontaneous anger or
frustration, best hope is to ESCAPE, preferably WITHOUT forcing the
robbers to try to defend themselves. Attacking them is the best
solution typically only if your only route of escape is through them,
or if you cannot leave due to a sacred responsibility for the welfare
of others present who may not be able or willing to escape.

Oh, and as to the question of whether a gun in the hands of the good
guy could help in such a situation? The answer is generally yes--IF
the good guy is well trained in the full spectrum of self-defense
(armed and unarmed) and knows how and when to deploy his/her firearm.
See Attackproof Newsletter #167 for a tragic example of when NOT to
deploy the firearm and why.

[SeanW]

There are many variables in this. The robber got the jump on her so too speak, and from that point you are at a supreme disadvantage. Also the robber probably planned his attack at least to some extent, but I don't get the sense that the lady was very prepared, for instance, natural weapons, suspicious behavior, etc. Unfortunately staff in most places train on how to take cover and evacuate a building in natural disasters, but often neglect people problems, like fights or robberies. In my line of work (libraries) they have given us very basic resources to handle situations which could turn violent or are violent. Most of them deal with trying to cool the person down. In context of what I know from Guided Chaos, the training is woefully inadequate. Many people even develop a type of bravado that will get them killed. Now here are some things to think about also. There should be always two or more staff in the building. Now this is not always possible or realistic, I know. Typical targets are lone workers like in gas stations, convenience marts, etc. It seems to me that her situation could have turned differently if there were two trained workers in the store. Yes, it is a small mom and pop, but they could have had a dead manager too. Not good for business. The video reiterated to me the need to be completely prepared in a spontaneous way. Perhaps she had too much time to think and overanalyzed the situation. "Now I am going to grab the gun and go in for a throat chop." Also, Ari, would you tell me how to access Newsletter #167. I'm not seeing it in the archives. Thanks! Seán

[SeanW]

Additonal thoughts from other articles: Edri said she felt the robber would have shot her anyway. “Or maybe the customer would have tried to make a move.” Hey, customers, do you have your concealed carry? It came down to instinct and the economy. “We’re a small store. I’ve worked here since May and we can’t afford to lose any money.” Let the money go! Please separate your "instinct" from finance! Hahn has beefed up security. There are surveillance cameras and a mace gun. The front door is now locked from 10 p.m. until midnight. Someone must knock in order to come in. There is also a security guard at the store every night from 10 p.m. until midnight. The store has also installed a security camera. So they do have money for a second staff member, and security resources?

The problem is she missed because she says the gunman is left-handed. "I'm used to disarming a right-handed person," said Edri.

Ouch. "I was not trying to be a superhero," said Edri. "I was just trying to not get shot." "I have gotten a lot of praise for (being) a badass," said Edri. There is even a card on the checkout counter from a customer who said she is a "badass." I would drop the badass thing.

[Ari]

Sean, make sure you're subscribed to the newsletter. See
http://www.attackproof.com/FREE-self-defense-NEWSLETTER.html

Here is the relevant article from #167:

[Thanks to Brad Steiner]

by PoliceOne Contributor Scott Buhrmaster
Article submitted by PoliceOne member who would like to remain
anonymous

In response to a recent Force Science News article ( Have Gun, Will
Travel? ) discussing the issue of off-duty/concealed carry, a sergeant
in California shared the following account of a horrific off-duty
engagement he and his family unexpectedly fell into. The hard-earned
lessons he shares may save your life in an off-duty encounter, so we
hope you will take them to heart.

[Editor’s note: Because of the impact this incident has had on his
family, this sergeant has asked for anonymity.]

He writes:

I had taken my family to a McDonald’s Restaurant on our way to a pool
party. I was off-duty, in civilian clothes, and armed.

I was standing in line and oblivious (like all the other patrons) to
the fact that an armed suspect had taken the manager hostage and was
forcing her to open the safe in the restaurant’s office. One of the
cashiers had seen this and I overheard her telling another employee
that the business was being robbed.

At that time, I had approximately 15 years of experience and was a
SWAT team member and use-of-force/firearms instructor. I had talked to
my wife about such an occurrence and we had a preplanned response.
When I told her to take the children and leave the building, she did
not hesitate. I began quietly telling employees and patrons to leave.
My thinking was to remove as many innocent bystanders as possible and
then leave myself.

I thought that because I did not see the suspect enter he must have
come in from a side door or employee entrance and I assumed (wrongly)
that he would go out the same way. As I was standing near the front
counter trying to get some of the kitchen help to get out, the suspect
came from the office area and began running in my direction.

I immediately noted the large semi-automatic pistol in his hand. The
distance was about 15 to 20 yards. I drew my weapon, announced myself
and took a kneeling position behind the counter. Unfortunately, the
suspect raised his weapon at me and the gunfight erupted. The suspect
fired a total of 2 rounds in my direction. I fired 11, striking him 10
times.

My weapon was now empty and I ran from the line of fire to reload my
spare magazine. I then approached the downed suspect and could tell
that he was seriously wounded. It was right then that I considered
that there might be more than one "bad guy" (the thought had not
crossed my mind before this) and I began to scan the 360 to check.

I immediately noticed a small child lying behind me. I saw blood
pooling under her head and knew at a glance she was dead. One of the
bullets fired at me had struck this child. Unbeknownst to me, my
family had tried to exit out the fire door, which was locked. My wife
was still trying to get out when the shooting started and she pushed
my kids under a table where they all witnessed the gunfight.

The end result was that the suspect died, I survived, but a 9-year-old
girl did not.

I tell you this story because I think that this topic is of utmost
importance. It is largely ignored in mainstream police training. I
want to tell you some of the lessons I learned from this incident:

1. If you are going to carry a firearm off-duty, you should carry
extra ammo. Security camera video of this incident revealed that I
fired all 11 rounds from my Glock 26 in about 2 seconds. My extra mag
held 17 rounds. Words cannot describe the emotion I felt when I
slammed that mag into my weapon and was able to still be in the
fight.

Mostly because of circumstances (distance) and my training, my rounds
were on target. It could have happened differently and the reality is
that most of us miss more than we hit when involved in a gun battle.

2. You cannot have the typical police mind-set in an off-duty
situation. I ended up in this incident without a radio, without
backup, without body armor, handcuffs, other force options and without
taking the time to think it through. I was truly most frightened when
the gunfight was over and I was standing there covering the suspect
with my weapon in my T-shirt and shorts.

I was really worried that one of my own guys might not recognize me. I
was worried too that there might be some other off-duty copper around
who would think I was the bad guy.

The smartest, most responsible thing I could have done would have been
to take care of my family first. I should have seen personally to
their safety. If I had grabbed them and gone outside, I would have
spared them this entire experience and that little girl would probably
still be alive today.

Again, words cannot describe the emotions that we all went through
after this incident. I recognized afterward that it could have been
one of my children lying dead because of my actions. When you are off-
duty your first responsibility is to your family. You should never
forget this.

3. I survived this incident. Partly due to my training and tactics.
Partly due to God's grace and blind luck. But the other side of the
coin is that I got into this incident because of my training. I
switched immediately into “cop” mode without stopping to consider that
I was at a great tactical disadvantage. Most of us are driven and
dedicated to the point of self destruction and I think good cops die
because we are taught to place our personal safety second when others
are in danger.

Because I had never trained realistically for a situation like this, I
was unprepared. Most of the guys I worked with then and now carry off-
duty weapons. But few of them, if any, have really taken the time to
engage in realistic training and preparation for how to handle an off-
duty incident.

Training can be as simple as discussing these types of situations with
your coworkers. Since this shooting, I have devoted at least one
quarterly range session with my students to off-duty encounters and
the associated considerations.

4. The responsibility of carrying a firearm is huge. I had devoted
countless hours to training for the fight, but was not fully prepared
for the aftermath. None of the training scenarios, books, films, etc.
that I learned from touched upon the fact that when you take that gun
out and decide to take action, 9-year-old kids can get killed. Even if
you do everything by the book, use good tactics, and are within policy
and the law, the outcome can still be negative.

You have to remember that the suspect does not go to the range and he
does not practice rules of weapons safety. He does not care about
what's in his line of fire. If it’s you or him, you gotta do what you
gotta do, but whether you’re on-duty or off-duty we need to train to
look at the totality of the incident.

Letting the bad guy go because doing otherwise would place innocent
people in grave danger needs to be more “socially acceptable” amongst
our ranks. I think we're starting to see more of this in the pursuit
policies of most agencies and I have tried to carry this message over
into my training and teaching.

I guess the bottom line here is that it’s good to be on “auto pilot”
when it comes to tactics in these situations, but we can’t go on auto
pilot in our assessment and examination of the environment and
circumstances leading up to and during the event. On-duty mind-set and
off-duty mind-set need to be strongly separated and the boundaries
clear.

- A California Sergeant