Re [Green-India] Re: Talk on SunCube in Pune this evening
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chan...@sancharnet.in
Nov 20, 2009, 9:09:12 AM11/20/09
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People do make such high claims.
Any takers for installing system on my roof top. I am ready to make agreement at Rs. 10/- per kWh.
Regards,
Ajay Chandak.
--------Original Message -------
Hello everyone,
I happened to attend Square Engineering's presentation in Pune.
Mr. Kelkar, the CEO of Square gave the presentation. There was no
product demonstration (expectedly).
The Suncube is a 300Wp CPV unit. It has nine units in one module, each
with a 1 cm2 triple junction PV cell. The concentration is 1000x. The
fresnel lens used is ~33cmX33cm. Efficiency is approximately 37%.
What I thought interesting was that the tracking mechanism is a very
small parasitic load. Tracking is done by sensing the voltage of the
actual triple junction cell, basically homing down on the position
that gives the highest voltage. It also memorizes the positions along
with the time of day, so it can reference that for the next day, in
case there are intermittent clouds. It rests face down during the
night. The next morning it computes the starting point based on the
setting position on the previous day.
Cost is Rs 45,000 per unit, which roughly results in USD 3.3/Wp, which
is quite low given that PV is between USD 2-4/Wp today. And of course,
the cost of generation is more important, and CPV being more efficient
than normal PV will generate more. According to Square, the cost of
generation is between Rs 3-4.5/kWh for a 25 year plant. That is really
low, and is at grid parity. I am sure of all the assumptions in their
calculations, but even if it is double that, it is still way
attractive compared to normal PV. This cost of generation most likely
does not include the IRR etc for the developer. So it might be Rs 6-7/
kWh, still more attractive to the Rs12-15/kWh for normal PV.
Here are the specs of Suncube: http://www.squareengg.com/Images/SUNCUBE%20SPECIFICATIONS.pdf
Square also talked about their "Big Dish", a concentrating parabolic
dish.
Cheers,
Ranjit
On Nov 19, 11:52 am, Manu Sharma <orangeh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If anyone in Pune got to attend this, please share your notes!
>
> Thanks,
> Manu
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Manu Sharma <orangeh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Members based in and around Pune might want to attend this talk by Mr.
> > Deepak Kelkar of Square Engineering, Indian licensee of SunCube, a
> > pioneering Concentrated Photovoltaic product.
>
> > The talk is being organised by Indian Institute of Production Engineers
> > (IIPE), Pune
>
> > What : Renewable Energy sources ? Specially Solar.
> > Speaker : Mr. Deepak Kelkar
> > Venue: COEP Pune Production Engineering department.
> > Date: Wednesday, 18th Noember 2009.
> > Time: 18=30 hrs. to 20=00 hrs.
> > Charges: Free for all. No registration required.
>
> > Mr. Deepak Kelkar is mechanical engineer. He has huge experience in sugar
> > industry to install and commission different equipments. He has started
> > Squre Engineering Pvt. Ltd. in 1986, as EPC company and they are specialized
> > in Renewable Solar energy. They have collaboration with many renouned names
> > in the field. They are working in renewable energy sources since 1992. Mr.
> > will be sharing his experieces in this field. Suare Engineering has
> > developed SUNCUBE ? innovative system. The system genrates DC power by using
> > ?Tripple Junction PV cells under concentration of 1000X of Sun light.
>
> > Source:
> >http://punetech.com/renewable-energy-sources-solar-energy-iipe-meet-1...
>
> > Thanks,
> > Manu
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Any takers for installing system on my roof top. I am ready to make agreement at Rs. 10/- per kWh.
Regards,
Ajay Chandak.
--------Original Message -------
Hello everyone,
I happened to attend Square Engineering's presentation in Pune.
Mr. Kelkar, the CEO of Square gave the presentation. There was no
product demonstration (expectedly).
The Suncube is a 300Wp CPV unit. It has nine units in one module, each
with a 1 cm2 triple junction PV cell. The concentration is 1000x. The
fresnel lens used is ~33cmX33cm. Efficiency is approximately 37%.
What I thought interesting was that the tracking mechanism is a very
small parasitic load. Tracking is done by sensing the voltage of the
actual triple junction cell, basically homing down on the position
that gives the highest voltage. It also memorizes the positions along
with the time of day, so it can reference that for the next day, in
case there are intermittent clouds. It rests face down during the
night. The next morning it computes the starting point based on the
setting position on the previous day.
Cost is Rs 45,000 per unit, which roughly results in USD 3.3/Wp, which
is quite low given that PV is between USD 2-4/Wp today. And of course,
the cost of generation is more important, and CPV being more efficient
than normal PV will generate more. According to Square, the cost of
generation is between Rs 3-4.5/kWh for a 25 year plant. That is really
low, and is at grid parity. I am sure of all the assumptions in their
calculations, but even if it is double that, it is still way
attractive compared to normal PV. This cost of generation most likely
does not include the IRR etc for the developer. So it might be Rs 6-7/
kWh, still more attractive to the Rs12-15/kWh for normal PV.
Here are the specs of Suncube: http://www.squareengg.com/Images/SUNCUBE%20SPECIFICATIONS.pdf
Square also talked about their "Big Dish", a concentrating parabolic
dish.
Cheers,
Ranjit
On Nov 19, 11:52 am, Manu Sharma <orangeh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If anyone in Pune got to attend this, please share your notes!
>
> Thanks,
> Manu
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Manu Sharma <orangeh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Members based in and around Pune might want to attend this talk by Mr.
> > Deepak Kelkar of Square Engineering, Indian licensee of SunCube, a
> > pioneering Concentrated Photovoltaic product.
>
> > The talk is being organised by Indian Institute of Production Engineers
> > (IIPE), Pune
>
> > What : Renewable Energy sources ? Specially Solar.
> > Speaker : Mr. Deepak Kelkar
> > Venue: COEP Pune Production Engineering department.
> > Date: Wednesday, 18th Noember 2009.
> > Time: 18=30 hrs. to 20=00 hrs.
> > Charges: Free for all. No registration required.
>
> > Mr. Deepak Kelkar is mechanical engineer. He has huge experience in sugar
> > industry to install and commission different equipments. He has started
> > Squre Engineering Pvt. Ltd. in 1986, as EPC company and they are specialized
> > in Renewable Solar energy. They have collaboration with many renouned names
> > in the field. They are working in renewable energy sources since 1992. Mr.
> > will be sharing his experieces in this field. Suare Engineering has
> > developed SUNCUBE ? innovative system. The system genrates DC power by using
> > ?Tripple Junction PV cells under concentration of 1000X of Sun light.
>
> > Source:
> >http://punetech.com/renewable-energy-sources-solar-energy-iipe-meet-1...
>
> > Thanks,
> > Manu
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Rangan Banerjee
Nov 20, 2009, 10:59:21 AM11/20/09
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Interesting data. Though Rs 3-4.5/ kWh does not seem correct
If we annualise the capital cost Rs 45000 and divide by the annual output
(300 W p 2000 hrs/ yrapprox 600 kWh)we get about Rs 9-10/kWh itself.
Still this is worth exploring
Rangan
If we annualise the capital cost Rs 45000 and divide by the annual output
(300 W p 2000 hrs/ yrapprox 600 kWh)we get about Rs 9-10/kWh itself.
Still this is worth exploring
Rangan
BHAVANI PALAPARTHI
Nov 20, 2009, 12:48:49 PM11/20/09
to green...@googlegroups.com, reg.w...@greenandgoldenergy.com.au
Dear Greg Watson,
Please ask Mr.Dipak Kelkar to do the needful as Prof Ajay Chandak is a respectable gentleman and people like him get convinced, its easy to convince others.
Cheers,
BHAVANI PALAPRTHI
soumyabrata rahut
Nov 20, 2009, 2:57:15 PM11/20/09
to green...@googlegroups.com, reg.w...@greenandgoldenergy.com.au
the interesting thing is that with fresnel lenses its the direct radiation that counts. in a lot of cities the diffuse component is very high. so even with an efficiency of 31% the output might be lessthan anticipated .
also what i found really impressive was that according to Mr Kelkar only 8% of the raw material is imported. the main thing is the tri junction cell but everything else is manufactured here.
Mr Kelkar also said that his assembly line in satara works from an array field that he has set up. this is actually very impressive as he is demonstrating the abilities of this system.
also a 9-10 rs / kwh is really competetive in terms of solar this could be a really interesting solution for RE.
otherwise as ranjit said their tracking system is very innovative specially because of the miniscule load that it has.
--
Soumyabrata Rahut
Consultant
Energy Efficiency
(Prayas Energy Group)
also what i found really impressive was that according to Mr Kelkar only 8% of the raw material is imported. the main thing is the tri junction cell but everything else is manufactured here.
Mr Kelkar also said that his assembly line in satara works from an array field that he has set up. this is actually very impressive as he is demonstrating the abilities of this system.
also a 9-10 rs / kwh is really competetive in terms of solar this could be a really interesting solution for RE.
otherwise as ranjit said their tracking system is very innovative specially because of the miniscule load that it has.
2009/11/20 BHAVANI PALAPARTHI <bpv...@gmail.com>
--
Soumyabrata Rahut
Consultant
Energy Efficiency
(Prayas Energy Group)
Ranjit Deshmukh
Nov 21, 2009, 3:45:04 AM11/21/09
to India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living
Hi everyone,
A correction in my earlier email, when I said "I am sure of all the
assumptions", I meant "I am not sure of all their assumptions".
Rangan, I am not sure about the Rs 9-10/kWh cost of generation. The
plant load factor that they are assuming is 28%. So annual generation
would be ~736 kWh. The plant life they are assuming is 25 years. So
just merely annualizing their Rs 45,000 cost over 25 years and
dividing by the total electricity generated will give a cost of
generation of Rs 2.5/kWh. Of course, this neglects a whole lot of
things like O&M costs, discount rates, debt equity etc. So perhaps,
Rangan, I misinterpreted how you calculated your cost of generation.
Anyway, I did a background check on their numbers. I assumed a PLF of
28%, depreciation rates, discount rate (16%), O&M costs for PV (Rs 9
lakhs/MW) according to CERC norms.
For 100% equity, the average cost of generation comes to Rs 3.10/kWh
and levelized cost of generation (uses the above discount rate) to Rs
4.10/kWh. For a 30% equity, avg cost of generation is Rs 4.30/kWh and
levelized cost of generation is Rs 6.70/kWh.
These numbers do not take into account any return on equity, which
will basically increase the price to almost Rs 15/kWh in case of 100%
equity and Rs 10/kWh for 30% equity.
So my guess is they are quoting the average cost of generation. But
even with a 30% equity and including the generous RoE accorded by
CERC, the levelized tariff is Rs 10/kWh, which is very competitive.
Manu, Mr. Kelkar did not mention how many kWh the unit will generate
in India. He assumed a PLF of 28%, which leads to 736 kWh/y for the
300 Wp units. That's about 6 kWhs a day. Most decent Indian sites have
4.5 to 5.5 DNI. So I would imagine the output to be less in India.
Rooftops in cities will have much more diffuse component, so the
output will drop further. Also, I am not sure about whether the Rs
45,000 is cost of mfg, or retail.
Cheers,
Ranjit
A correction in my earlier email, when I said "I am sure of all the
assumptions", I meant "I am not sure of all their assumptions".
Rangan, I am not sure about the Rs 9-10/kWh cost of generation. The
plant load factor that they are assuming is 28%. So annual generation
would be ~736 kWh. The plant life they are assuming is 25 years. So
just merely annualizing their Rs 45,000 cost over 25 years and
dividing by the total electricity generated will give a cost of
generation of Rs 2.5/kWh. Of course, this neglects a whole lot of
things like O&M costs, discount rates, debt equity etc. So perhaps,
Rangan, I misinterpreted how you calculated your cost of generation.
Anyway, I did a background check on their numbers. I assumed a PLF of
28%, depreciation rates, discount rate (16%), O&M costs for PV (Rs 9
lakhs/MW) according to CERC norms.
For 100% equity, the average cost of generation comes to Rs 3.10/kWh
and levelized cost of generation (uses the above discount rate) to Rs
4.10/kWh. For a 30% equity, avg cost of generation is Rs 4.30/kWh and
levelized cost of generation is Rs 6.70/kWh.
These numbers do not take into account any return on equity, which
will basically increase the price to almost Rs 15/kWh in case of 100%
equity and Rs 10/kWh for 30% equity.
So my guess is they are quoting the average cost of generation. But
even with a 30% equity and including the generous RoE accorded by
CERC, the levelized tariff is Rs 10/kWh, which is very competitive.
Manu, Mr. Kelkar did not mention how many kWh the unit will generate
in India. He assumed a PLF of 28%, which leads to 736 kWh/y for the
300 Wp units. That's about 6 kWhs a day. Most decent Indian sites have
4.5 to 5.5 DNI. So I would imagine the output to be less in India.
Rooftops in cities will have much more diffuse component, so the
output will drop further. Also, I am not sure about whether the Rs
45,000 is cost of mfg, or retail.
Cheers,
Ranjit
Dr. Srinivasa Chakrawarthy Ravuri
Nov 21, 2009, 4:55:32 AM11/21/09
to green...@googlegroups.com
hi all,
On enquiry with Sq. engg., Pune., I got a quote for rs. 50 000/suncube (no discounts irresp of retail or wholesale)
the gen. capacity is 1.8 units/day (assume this to be the max)
Best conditions is 300 sunny days (max, again) gives not more than 600 units per year,
now add the cost of battery-bank, maintainance etc, interest on loan , and I am sure it will work out much more than the Rs. 10.00 figure.
(and, Bhavani, (a) people in India are very shrewd---they look for most bang for least of their bucks! , (b) Apart from tax-breaks is there any country providing soft-loans on PV/renewable energy products /)
The cost, low or high, does not rob the nice innovation evident in this product, however!
cheers
ChakrawarthyDr. Srinivasa Chakrawarthy Ravuri
Renewable Energy Technopreuner
Solar-thermal; Bio-gas; Rain-water harvesting
chakra...@gmail.com; 09908212812
On enquiry with Sq. engg., Pune., I got a quote for rs. 50 000/suncube (no discounts irresp of retail or wholesale)
the gen. capacity is 1.8 units/day (assume this to be the max)
Best conditions is 300 sunny days (max, again) gives not more than 600 units per year,
now add the cost of battery-bank, maintainance etc, interest on loan , and I am sure it will work out much more than the Rs. 10.00 figure.
(and, Bhavani, (a) people in India are very shrewd---they look for most bang for least of their bucks! , (b) Apart from tax-breaks is there any country providing soft-loans on PV/renewable energy products /)
The cost, low or high, does not rob the nice innovation evident in this product, however!
cheers
Chakrawarthy
Renewable Energy Technopreuner
Solar-thermal; Bio-gas; Rain-water harvesting
chakra...@gmail.com; 09908212812
Manu Sharma
Nov 21, 2009, 8:24:53 AM11/21/09
to green...@googlegroups.com
On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:27 AM, soumyabrata rahut <soumyabr...@gmail.com> wrote:
Mr Kelkar also said that his assembly line in satara works from an array field that he has set up. this is actually very impressive as he is demonstrating the abilities of this system.
This is one of those things that Greg mandates from all manufacturing facilities -- they must meet their electricity demand directly from SunCubes. I think there are plans to get all their suppliers meet their demand from SunCubes as well.
So in effect, you have the whole supply chain as close to being carbon neutral as possible.
Thanks,
Manu
Rangan Banerjee
Nov 21, 2009, 12:11:58 PM11/21/09
to green...@googlegroups.com
> Hi everyone,
> A correction in my earlier email, when I said "I am sure of all the
> assumptions", I meant "I am not sure of all their assumptions".
>
> Rangan, I am not sure about the Rs 9-10/kWh cost of generation. The
> plant load factor that they are assuming is 28%. So annual generation
> would be ~736 kWh. The plant life they are assuming is 25 years. So
> just merely annualizing their Rs 45,000 cost over 25 years and
> dividing by the total electricity generated will give a cost of
> generation of Rs 2.5/kWh. Of course, this neglects a whole lot of
> things like O&M costs, discount rates, debt equity etc. So perhaps,
> Rangan, I misinterpreted how you calculated your cost of generation.
I annualised with a discount rate of 10% (taking time value of money is
> A correction in my earlier email, when I said "I am sure of all the
> assumptions", I meant "I am not sure of all their assumptions".
>
> Rangan, I am not sure about the Rs 9-10/kWh cost of generation. The
> plant load factor that they are assuming is 28%. So annual generation
> would be ~736 kWh. The plant life they are assuming is 25 years. So
> just merely annualizing their Rs 45,000 cost over 25 years and
> dividing by the total electricity generated will give a cost of
> generation of Rs 2.5/kWh. Of course, this neglects a whole lot of
> things like O&M costs, discount rates, debt equity etc. So perhaps,
> Rangan, I misinterpreted how you calculated your cost of generation.
essential in any costing). Most tech developers try to show more
attractive numbers. I feel that if 45000 is the total cost (unlikely),
this is still worth exploring.
Rangan
Greg Watson
Nov 20, 2009, 4:05:50 PM11/20/09
to green...@googlegroups.com
Hi Bhavani,
The SunCube is currently under going both IEC62108 and UL 1703
certification by UL. We trust those 3rd party and independent certifications
will do the talking.
I have worked with Square and Deepak for over 4 months in
India, over the last 1 1/2 years. Even though I caught Malaria on my 2nd to last
visit, I still love India, it's friendly, respectable and intelligent people,
cultures and food. I feel Satara is like my 2nd home.
All the best,
Green and Gold Energy Pty., Ltd
Greg Watson, CEO
7 Provident Avenue, Glynde, 5070
South Australia, Australia, +61 8 8365 5844
http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au
"SunCube" and "SunBall Solar Battery" are
trademarks of Green and Gold Energy Pty Ltd
Manu Sharma
Nov 22, 2009, 1:04:48 PM11/22/09
to green...@googlegroups.com
On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 2:35 AM, Greg Watson <greg....@greenandgoldenergy.com.au> wrote:
The SunCube is currently under going both IEC62108 and UL 1703 certification by UL. We trust those 3rd party and independent certifications will do the talking.
Hi Greg,
How long realistically do you think you will acquire these?
Also, the website of your US licensee Helios Solar says their SunCube is 750 sun concentration and ground mount only. Is that a slightly different device? I presume the SunCube by Square is roof mountable?
I have worked with Square and Deepak for over 4 months in India, over the last 1 1/2 years. Even though I caught Malaria on my 2nd to last visit, I still love India, it's friendly, respectable and intelligent people, cultures and food. I feel Satara is like my 2nd home.
Happy to know that, Greg.
Thanks,
Manu
Greg Watson
Nov 22, 2009, 3:25:41 PM11/22/09
to green...@googlegroups.com
Hi Manu,
The concentration figure on the Helios Solar web site is
incorrect. It should say 1,370 suns geometric. Until they get their
manufacturing facility operational, in about 12 months, GGE will supply them
with SunCubes from Adelaide.
All the best,
Green and Gold Energy Pty., Ltd
Greg Watson, CEO
7 Provident Avenue, Glynde, 5070
South Australia, Australia, +61 8 8365 5844
http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au
"SunCube" and "SunBall Solar Battery" are
trademarks of Green and Gold Energy Pty Ltd
----- Original Message -----From: Manu SharmaSent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:34 AMSubject: Re: Re [Green-India] Re: Talk on SunCube in Pune this evening
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