biogas to run cars

[ritz]

Has anyone has tried to run cars using biogas or for that matter the
cow dung dry cakes.?

Seen few videos on youtube using woodgas.

Ritesh

[Jerry Scovel]

Ritz,

We used a LNG carburetor but had to change the jets and the ignition
timing, a 20 lb. tank would give my car (1957 VW) about a 90 mile range.

Jerry.

[Manu Sharma]

On 8/9/08, ritz <rit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Has anyone has tried to run cars using biogas or for that matter the
cow dung dry cakes.?

 

Yes! Europe has done a lot of work on this. There are places where you can even feed biogas generated into a national grid after scrubbing.

 

Manu 

 

[Vishal Kadam]

Hi,

Bio gas is nothing but Methane - CH4, which is the major content of Natural Gas. Currently we use CNG - Compressed Natural Gas in a SI-Spark Ignition engines.

Due to low energy content, Natural gas needs high compression for transportation and storage. If we compress bio gas similar to natural gas it can surely be used in automobiles.

With regards to cow dung cakes, the engine would be a Steam Engine used in primitive automobiles.

Vishal
MS Automotive Systems.

--- On Sun, 8/10/08, Manu Sharma <orang...@gmail.com> wrote:

[ritz]

I had seen that there are lots of projects in europe which are doing
this work. Read that almost 8% of germany electricity is coming from
biogas.

Is it correct to say that removal of H2S from biogas is the only
factor preventing it from being used as a fuel for vehicle?

Which parts of an automobile are effected by using biogas with H2S? I
am new to these discussions,kindly excuse if these are dumb questions.

Are there any natural srubbers?




On Aug 10, 1:20 am, "Manu Sharma" <orangeh...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Manu Sharma]

Ritz, Prof. Chandak described a way to make a water based H2S scrubber in a recent post to the list. Check archives.

 

Thanks,

Manu

[Ajay Chandak]

Passing biogas over rusted iron cuttings (from machine shop) removes H2S.
Iron oxide absorbs H2S. Moreover when these iron cutting is exposed to open
air again for few days, it regenerates back to iron oxide and can be reused.
Making two sets, one for use and one for regeration makes sense.

Actually with proper operation, I feel H2S problem can be reduced. When
engine is running, at high temp. sulphuric acid formed because of H2S is
also in vapor form and gets expelled out through exhaust. When the engine
stops, any sulphuric vapors left inside cylinder will condense damaging
cylinder lining or piston. I feel it may be a good practice to suddently
close biogas valve, when we wish to stop the engine. In that case the
momentum of engine will still go through few revolutions, without biogas,
only air and in that case all exhause can be expelled out. Somebody really
need to try it out.
Regards,

Prof. Ajay Chandak.

----- Original Message -----
From: "ritz" <rit_...@yahoo.com>
To: "India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living"
<green...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: 10 August, 2008 6:48 AM
Subject: [Green-India] Re: biogas to run cars

[Shireesh Kedare]

Kirloskar Oil engines is doing it with the help of a group called Gangotree.
 

Regards,

- Shireesh
______________________________
Dr. Shireesh B. Kedare

Adjunct Associate Professor,
Department of Energy Science and Engineering,
IIT-Bombay, Powai, Mumbai 400076, India
Ph. (022) 2576 7835
www.ese.iitb.ac.in/~sbk

Director
Clique Developments Private Limited
134-A/B, Government Industrial Estate
Charkop, Kandivali (West),
Mumbai 400067, India
Ph. (022) 2860 9011
www.clique.in

 

[ritz]

There seems to be many such plants in India which are doing this work.
But the cost of enriching the biogas seems to be a blocking factor for
it to operate in a decentralised model in rural india.

Still looking at possible low cost options to produce at least
100litre equivalent of petrol.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Ritesh

On Aug 11, 9:31 am, "Shireesh Kedare" <sbked...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kirloskar Oil engines is doing it with the help of a group called Gangotree.
>
> Regards,
>
> - Shireesh
> ______________________________
> Dr. Shireesh B. Kedare
>
> Adjunct Associate Professor,
> Department of Energy Science and Engineering,
> IIT-Bombay, Powai, Mumbai 400076, India
> Ph. (022) 2576 7835www.ese.iitb.ac.in/~sbk
>
> Director
> Clique Developments Private Limited
> 134-A/B, Government Industrial Estate
> Charkop, Kandivali (West),
> Mumbai 400067, India
> Ph. (022) 2860 9011www.clique.in
>

> On 10/08/2008, Manu Sharma <orangeh...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> > On 8/9/08, ritz <rit_bl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> Has anyone has tried to run cars using biogas or for that matter the
> >> cow dung dry cakes.?
>
> > Yes! Europe has done a lot of work on this. There are places where you can
> > even feed biogas generated into a national grid after scrubbing.
>

> > Manu- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[ritz]

Hi All,

Has anyone used a biogas upgradation mechanism being sold by Indian
Compressor for bottling as CBG?

What is the approximate cost of the whole plant and any other details
which we have to look for.?

Also, read a lot of funny stuff that about 85% of methane from a cow
comes from its mouth and not from the manure/dung. There are few
mechanisms being tried in argentina to get this 85% also. Is this
true?

Again, lot of queries!

Ritesh

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Manu Sharma]

On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 9:51 PM, ritz <rit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

Has anyone used a biogas upgradation mechanism being sold by Indian
Compressor for bottling as CBG?

Hi Ritesh,

I wasn't aware of biogas bottling and use as CNG in India. It's an interesting application so looked it up. Apparently it has been tried by several people. See here (Orissa) and here (Gujarat). IIT Delhi's Centre for Rural Development and Technology have done a detailed study on it. Here's another paper by the same authors. You can find contact info of Dr. Virendra Kumar, one of the authors of these papers, here.

Then there are news reports that talk about using compressed biogas as transport fuel...

Compressed biogas is set to fuel vehicles
Indian sugar mills to produce 'bio-CNG' from cane biomass
TVS Motor to roll out CNG-fueled motorbikes, allows leapfrogging with biogas

The first story mentions a Delhi based company called Indian Compressors Ltd as having the expertise to compress purified biogas.

about 85% of methane from a cow comes from its mouth and not from the manure/dung. [...] Is this true?

I'm not sure of the exact percentage but yes it's indeed correct that most of their emissions come from the mouth. I've never heard of it being captured though. I did come across a story on altering their feedstock to ensure lower methane emissions.

Thanks,
Manu

[Ajay Chandak]

Biogas is primarily mixture of methane and CO2, and of course traces of H2s etc. Once we scrub CO2 what remains is methane rich gas, which has properties very close to Natural Gas. This gas can be directly used in CNG engines without any modifications and alterations in the CNG engines.

Very high compression required seems to be hurdle. Biogas is generated in decentralised manner and making investment in high capacity compressors for small quantities of biogas seems to be a problem.

Regards,

 

Prof. Ajay Chandak.

----- Original Message -----

From: Manu Sharma

To: green...@googlegroups.com

Sent: 20 August, 2008 12:00 AM

Subject: [Green-India] Re: biogas to run cars

[ritz]

I had gone through those links before and had also tried to contact
Indian Compressor via email - still awaiting their response.

Basically, the technology looks the same for the IIT/Indian compressor
and the ENV engg comp.I heard the whole thing is costing around 10
lakhs.

I got the Indian Compressor information from Mr. Vijendra Kumar and an
awaiting their response.

I think in rural india this can possibly work viably. But the plant
would have to be mobile and leave the CBG cylinders filled at each
station/farm a day.

That way across many farms the bottling/upgradation cost would be
minimised.

Ritesh

On Aug 20, 8:06 am, "Ajay Chandak" <chanda...@sancharnet.in> wrote:
> Biogas is primarily mixture of methane and CO2, and of course traces of H2s etc. Once we scrub CO2 what remains is methane rich gas, which has properties very close to Natural Gas. This gas can be directly used in CNG engines without any modifications and alterations in the CNG engines.
> Very high compression required seems to be hurdle. Biogas is generated in decentralised manner and making investment in high capacity compressors for small quantities of biogas seems to be a problem.
> Regards,
>
> Prof. Ajay Chandak.
>
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Manu Sharma
>   To: green...@googlegroups.com
>   Sent: 20 August, 2008 12:00 AM
>   Subject: [Green-India] Re: biogas to run cars
>

>   On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 9:51 PM, ritz <rit_bl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>     Has anyone used a biogas upgradation mechanism being sold by Indian
>     Compressor for bottling as CBG?
>
>   Hi Ritesh,
>
>   I wasn't aware of biogas bottling and use as CNG in India. It's an interesting application so looked it up. Apparently it has been tried by several people. See here (Orissa) and here (Gujarat). IIT Delhi's Centre for Rural Development and Technology have done a detailed study on it. Here's another paper by the same authors. You can find contact info of Dr. Virendra Kumar, one of the authors of these papers, here.
>
>   Then there are news reports that talk about using compressed biogas as transport fuel...
>
>   Compressed biogas is set to fuel vehicles
>   Indian sugar mills to produce 'bio-CNG' from cane biomass
>   TVS Motor to roll out CNG-fueled motorbikes, allows leapfrogging with biogas
>
>   The first story mentions a Delhi based company called Indian Compressors Ltd as having the expertise to compress purified biogas.
>
>     about 85% of methane from a cow comes from its mouth and not from the manure/dung. [...] Is this true?
>
>   I'm not sure of the exact percentage but yes it's indeed correct that most of their emissions come from the mouth. I've never heard of it being captured though. I did come across a story on altering their feedstock to ensure lower methane emissions.
>
>   Thanks,

[ritz]

Another interesting article ---

---------
Tata Motors to introduce Air Car - Is it the next big thing?

Tata Motors is taking giant strides and making history for itself.
First the Landrover-Jaguar deal, then the world’s cheapest car and now
it is also set to introduce the car that runs on air, compressed air
to be specific.

Air Car

With fuel prices touching nearly $150 per barrel, it is about time we
heard some breakthrough !

India’s largest automaker Tata Motors is set to start producing
the world’s first commercial air-powered vehicle. The Air Car,
developed by ex-Formula One engineer Guy Nègre for Luxembourg-based
MDI, uses compressed air, as opposed to the gas-and-oxygen explosions
of internal-combustion models, to push its engine’s pistons. Some 6000
zero-emissions Air Cars are scheduled to hit Indian streets in August
of 2008.

The Air Car, called the MiniCAT could cost around Rs. 3,50,000 ($
8177) in India and would have a range of around 300 km between
refuels.

The cost of a refill would be about Rs. 85 ($ 2). Tata motors also
plans to launch the world’s cheapest car, Tata Nano priced famously at
One lakh rupees by October.

The MiniCAT which is a simple, light urban car, with a tubular chassis
that is glued not welded and a body of fiberglass powered by
compressed air. Microcontrollers are used in every device in the car,
so one tiny radio transmitter sends instructions to the lights,
indicators etc.

There are no keys - just an access card which can be read by the
car from your pocket. According to the designers, it costs less than
50 rupees per 100Km (about a tenth that of a petrol car). Its mileage
is about double that of the most advanced electric car (200 to 300 km
or 10 hours of driving), a factor which makes a perfect choice in
cities where the 80% of motorists drive at less than 60Km. The car has
a top speed of 105 kmph. Refilling the car will, once the market
develops, take place at adapted petrol stations to administer
compressed air. In two or three minutes, and at a cost of
approximately 100 rupees, the car will be ready to go another 200-300
kilometers.

As a viable alternative, the car carries a small compressor which can
be connected to the mains (220V or 380V) and refill the tank in 3-4
hours. Due to the absence of combustion and, consequently, of
residues, changing the oil (1 litre of vegetable oil) is necessary
only every 50,000Km.] The temperature of the clean air expelled by the
exhaust pipe is between 0-15 degrees below zero, which makes it
suitable for use by the internal air conditioning system with no need
for gases or loss of power.


-----------
Full link of the page:-

http://www.indiandefenceforum.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=14008.0

This sounds very promising, any pros/cons?

Ritesh

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Manu Sharma]

On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 2:29 PM, ritz <rit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Another interesting article --- Tata Motors to introduce Air Car [...]  sounds very promising, any pros/cons?

Ritesh,

We've had had detailed discussion on this on Green-India when the first media reports started appearing internationally over an year ago. To follow the discussions, see here, here and here.

Thanks,
Manu

[Jerry Scovel]

Where I live it would be ideal, nearly every farm has an air compressor.

[ritz]

There have been detailed discussions on this.I should have gone
through the old archives before posting.

Thanks for the links.

Ritesh

On Aug 22, 2:30 pm, "Manu Sharma" <orangeh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 2:29 PM, ritz <rit_bl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Another interesting article --- Tata Motors to introduce Air Car [...]
> > sounds very promising, any pros/cons?
>
> Ritesh,
>
> We've had had detailed discussion on this on Green-India when the first
> media reports started appearing internationally over an year ago. To follow
> the discussions, see

> here<http://groups.google.com/group/green-india/browse_thread/thread/78cd7...>,
> here<http://groups.google.com/group/green-india/browse_thread/thread/a3ef4...>and
> here<http://groups.google.com/group/green-india/browse_thread/thread/94720...>
> .
>
> Thanks,
> Manu

[Sanchayan Nath]

Any other information on similar concepts?

-----Original Message-----
From: green...@googlegroups.com [mailto:green...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of ritz
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 2:30 PM
To: India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living

[see...@aol.com]

What are the greenhouse consequences of the compressed-air car?

Seema

-----Original Message-----
From: Sanchayan Nath <sanchay...@gmail.com>
To: green...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:00 am
Subject: [Green-India] Tata Air Car

Any other information on similar concepts?



-----Original Message-----
From: green...@googlegroups.com [mailto:green...@googlegroups.com

] On
Behalf Of ritz
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 2:30 PM
To: India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living
Subject: [Green-India] Re: biogas to run cars


Another interesting article ---

---------
Tata Motors to introduce Air Car - Is it the next big thing?

Tata Motors is taking giant strides and making history for itself.
First the Landrover-Jaguar deal, then the world’s cheapest car and now
it is also set to introduce the car that runs on air, compressed air
to be specific.

Air Car

With fuel prices touching nearly $150 per barrel, it is about time we
heard some breakthrough !

    India’s largest automaker Tata Motors is set to start producing
the world’s first commercial air-powered vehicle. The Air Car,
developed by ex-Formula One=2
0engineer Guy Nègre for Luxembourg-based
MDI, uses compressed air, as opposed to the gas-and-oxygen explosions
of internal-combustion models, to push its engine’s pistons. Some 6000
zero-emissions Air Cars are scheduled to hit Indian streets in August
of 2008.

The Air Car, called the MiniCAT could cost around Rs. 3,50,000 ($
8177) in India and would have a range of around 300 km between
refuels.

The cost of a refill would be about Rs. 85 ($ 2). Tata motors also
plans to launch the world’s cheapest car, Tata Nano priced famously at
One lakh rupees by October.

The MiniCAT which is a simple, light urban car, with a tubular chassis
that is glued not welded and a body of fiberglass powered by
compressed air. Microcontrollers are used in every device in the car,
so one tiny radio transmitter sends instructions to the lights,
indicators etc.

    There are no keys - just an access card which can be read by the
car from your pocket. According to the designers, it costs less than
50 rupees per 100Km (about a tenth that of a petrol car). Its mileage
is about double that of the most advanced electric car (200 to 300 km
or 10 hours of driving), a factor which makes a perfect choice in
cities where the 80% of motorists drive at less than 60Km. The car has
a top speed of 105 kmph. Refilling the car will, once the market
develops, take place at adapted petrol stations to administer
compressed air. In two or t
hree minutes, and at a cost of
approximately 100 rupees, the car will be ready to go another 200-300
kilometers.

As a viable alternative, the car carries a small compressor which can
be connected to the mains (220V or 380V) and refill the tank in 3-4
hours. Due to the absence of combustion and, consequently, of
residues, changing the oil (1 litre of vegetable oil) is necessary
only every 50,000Km.] The temperature of the clean air expelled by the
exhaust pipe is between 0-15 degrees below zero, which makes it
suitable for use by the internal air conditioning system with no need
for gases or loss of power.


-----------
Full link of the page:-

> wrote:
>
> >     Has anyone used a biogas upgradation mechanism being sold by Indian
> >     Compressor for bottling as20CBG?
>
> >   Hi Ritesh,
>
> >   I wasn't aware of biogas bottling and use as CNG in India. It's an
interesting application so looked it up. Apparently it has been tried by
several people. See here (Orissa) and here (Gujarat). IIT Delhi's Centre for
Rural Development and Technology have done a detailed study on it. Here's
another paper by the same authors. You can find contact info of Dr. Virendra
Kumar, one of the authors of these papers, here.
>
> >   Then there are news reports that talk about using compressed biogas as
transport fuel...
>
> >   Compressed biogas is set to fuel vehicles
> >   Indian sugar mills to produce 'bio-CNG' from cane biomass
> >   TVS Motor to roll out CNG-fueled motorbikes, allows leapfrogging with
biogas
>
> >   The first story mentions a Delhi based company called Indian
Compressors Ltd as having the expertise to compress purified biogas.
>
> >     about 85% of methane from a cow comes from its mouth and not from
the manure/dung. [...] Is this true?
>
> >   I'm not sure of the exact percentage but yes it's indeed correct that
most of their emissions come from the mouth. I've never heard of it being
captured though. I did come across a story on altering their feedstock to
ensure lower methane emissions.

>
> >   Thanks,
> >   Manu- Hide quoted text -=0
D
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

---

Get the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More!

[Manu Sharma]

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 3:42 PM, <see...@aol.com> wrote:

What are the greenhouse consequences of the compressed-air car?

Seema

Hi Seema,

Good to hear from you again after a long time. It's hard to make a comparison with a traditional car until we know the official specs of the air car. There are different figures for range etc that are floating around the net. Will make an estimate once we know how far it travels in different modes (it's actually a bi-fuel car) consuming how much energy.

Thanks,
Manu

[see...@aol.com]

Thanks, Manu. I am moving to the realm of Climate Change officially. Will be joining the newly launched ClimateWorks Foundation as the Director of the India Energy Initiative. Am amidst a move from Geneva to San Francisco, and hence have not been able to keep track of all the discussions.

Best Wishes,
Seema

-----Original Message-----
From: Manu Sharma <orang...@gmail.com>
To: green...@googlegroups.com

[Manu Sharma]

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 5:20 PM, <see...@aol.com> wrote:

Thanks, Manu. I am moving to the realm of Climate Change officially. Will be joining the newly launched ClimateWorks Foundation as the Director of the India Energy Initiative.

Congratulations, Seema. Do give us your overview of the foundation once you've settled down. All the best.

Thanks,
Manu