Biofuel Industry and OPEC. A Must Read!

[Fuelguru]

The biofuels industry is responding to OPEC's claims that ethanol is
the reason for high gas prices. Yeah right! Ethanol keeps the prices
lower. Several biofuels organizations issued the following press
release to draw attention to their ad in the Financial Times.

If you click on the link at the bottom you can view the full ad.

Links:
http://www.goodfuels.org/opec
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2008/7/prweb1115304.htm

[Jerry Scovel]

Ethanol uses more energy than it produces and it drives up food
prices, if it were not for subsidies by the government it would not
be able to compete. When you calculate costs you need to factor in
all of the variables, not just those that are convenient.

[matt]

Actually, Ethanol does NOT use more energy than it yields. The
information about the inefficiency of ethanol comes from studies that
were conducted during the 1970s. This information is spread by OPEC
and the Big Oil companies who want to squash biofuels because they are
a competitor. You should look into it more.

Back in the 1970's, it was very inefficient to produce ethanol. The
test plants that were studied at that time did not have heat recovery
methods that are employed today. More importantly, they only used
field corn, and did not have an understanding of Cellulosic enzymes or
other feedstocks such as sugarcane that make ethanol much more
efficient.

The media continues to quote the efficiency studies that were done 35
years ago.

There are new technologies that make efficiencies much higher.

Depending on the feedstock and methodology:

Sugarcane: 8:1 efficiency ratio
Cellulosic: 5:1 efficiency ratio
Field Corn: 1.31:1 efficiency ratio

Further, the rise in grain prices is more attributable to the rise in
the price of diesel fuel. Ethanol only consumes a small proportion of
our overall grain production. It affects localized areas around
ethanol plants. However, the United States continues to EXPORT grain.
There is NO SHORTAGE.

In fact, in 2007, the U.S. exported approximately 13% MORE grain than
it did in 2006 according to the USDA. If we are INCREASING our
exports, then there couldn't possibly be a shortage caused by ethanol
production.

The United States is the largest producer of ethanol in the world. We
surpassed Brazil in 2006.

[Manu Sharma]

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 9:39 AM, matt <matt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually, Ethanol does NOT use more energy than it yields. The
information about the inefficiency of ethanol comes from studies that
were conducted during the 1970s.

Matt,

That's not really true. There have been a number of recent studies that have shown grain based ethanol consuming more energy than it yields. If you like I can quote you sources.


Matt wrote:

Sugarcane: 8:1 efficiency ratio
Cellulosic: 5:1 efficiency ratio
Field Corn: 1.31:1 efficiency ratio

While those numbers are questionable, see this 2005 study for example that found that "ethanol production using corn grain required 29% more fossil energy than the ethanol fuel produced," you also fail to mention that Sugarcane isn't done in US much and that Cellulosic ethanol is still under development. Corn is the primary crop that US uses for ethanol. And the one responsible, in part, for the world food crisis as per the leaked world bank report.

Manu

[keva...@aol.com]

Ethanol uses more petroleum than it replaces in the US and it drives up food prices when it is made from corn.

Ethanol is a useful fuel alternative when it is made from sugar cane and other sources. The stat that is mind blowing is that I understand Brazil can produce more ethanol from sugar cane for the money that the US spends in ethanol subsidies than the US produces with all of the transportation and agriculture costs added to the subsidy money.

Corn Ethanol is Crazy.

Cane Ethanol makes money.

Kevin

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[livelylawry]

Hi Fellow Energizers,
There is no doubt that the global economy is hungry for energy. it
will use whatever source available to quench its thirst. Remember the
oil shock of the 1970s and the resultant ethanol usage in Brazil...
Sugarcane is a good source for ethanol since its molasses can still
produce ethanol even after sugar extraction.

now, we need to look at the present food crisis created by the ethanol
production from corn. when crude oil prices sky rocket, the markets
are bound to search for alternatives. If only the US government, (or
any govt) had taken cue from Brazil and established an alternative
energy source mechanism, this situation would not have occurred. now
that has it occured, we better to look at the positive aspects.

as indicated in the markets, the ethanol demand is pushing up the corn
prices to an exorbitant level. soon we will find that food users will
find it unaffordable and later even it will cross the tolerance limit
of ethanol users.
http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9378875
as you can see, more energy is being put into producing corn as
compared its energy potential itself. this obviously will defeat the
purpose and soon we will find market economics crush the corn prices
back to earth where it belongs!
so lets start the debate about what is the next alternative biofuel
available
regards
Lawry

> Links:http://www.goodfuels.org/opechttp://www.prweb.com/releases/2008/7/prweb1115304.htm- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Thaddeus Ward]

Hello all,

We need to be careful on the issue of corn ethanol because there is a
lot of spin, politics and money on both sides of the equation. Any
way you slice it however, corn ethanol is one of the least efficient
biofuel sources, and not all of us can grow sugar cane.

A farmer near me has been producing decent quantities of bio diesel
and says it is a win/win for him because all he takes out of his crop
is the oil which is cows can't digest anyway. Even in normal cow feed
it has to be processed out. So he's been experimenting with soy,
canola, sunflowers, etc extracting the oil and finding himself left
with a perfect crop of feed which then somehow converts itself into
milk, meat, and manure. He sells the first two and plows the last one
back into to his land. "The more of the organic sh*t I keep on my
land the better." He processes the oil into biodiesel an currently
has a closed-loop system that is self sustaining. He's looking to run
a surplus of biodiesel this year.

Biodiesel can be real. Cellosic can be real. Sugar can is real.
Corn may or might not, there's too much money and politics floating
around to be sure. My concern with corn is that it fits very clearly
into and the existing industrial agro power structure that is
dominated by a a few very wealthy and very well connected companies
who have a lot at stake making this look like it will work even if it
won't.

-TW

On Jul 24, 3:33 am, livelylawry <levinela...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Fellow Energizers,
> There is no doubt that the global economy is hungry for energy. it
> will use whatever source available to quench its thirst. Remember the
> oil shock of the 1970s and the resultant ethanol usage in Brazil...
> Sugarcane is a good source for ethanol since its molasses can still
> produce ethanol even after sugar extraction.
>
> now, we need to look at the present food crisis created by the ethanol
> production from corn. when crude oil prices sky rocket, the markets
> are bound to search for alternatives. If only the US government, (or
> any govt) had taken cue from Brazil and established an alternative
> energy source mechanism, this situation would not have occurred. now
> that has it occured, we better to look at the positive aspects.
>
> as indicated in the markets, the ethanol demand is pushing up the corn
> prices to an exorbitant level. soon we will find that food users will
> find it unaffordable and later even it will cross the tolerance limit

> of ethanol users.http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9378875

> > Links:http://www.goodfuels.org/opechttp://www.prweb.com/releases/2008/7/prw...Hide quoted text -

[greenhorn]

Hi all,

I find it shocking that the production of ethanol requires 29% more
fossil energy than the fuel produced. A quick question - does the bio-
fuels industry exist today only because it makes business sense to
produce bio-fuels since they are priced higher than fossil fuels?

Also it beats me why governments are pushing for up to 25% ethanol
blending if it's actually detrimental to the environment...

Thanks.
Shyam

[Hitesh Karandikar]

Hi all,   Can any body tell, life expectancy of thermal/Hydro Power stations, Transformers, Transmission lines, Substations? Any authentic papers?   regards Hitesh

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[T.jayaraman]

hi,

There are two points

1. The energy requirement for ethanol is depending on the raw material used
2. Not all the energy need to come from fossil fuels.

Like in every industry, there would be companies which work with "CONTACTS" to make their money, and there would be companies, which would make money based on their commitment.

It is our choice whom we support.  No single bio fuel can be a panacea for all needs - each is to be taken based on individual area, availability, need and costs

T.Jayaraman

[Manu Sharma]

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 3:48 PM, greenhorn <spen...@gmail.com> wrote:

I find it shocking that the production of [CORN] ethanol requires 29% more

fossil energy than the fuel produced. A quick question - does the bio-
fuels industry exist today only because it makes business sense to

produce bio-fuels...

Hi Shyam,

Broadly speaking, that would be correct. Production of ethanol is highly profitable to farmers and that is the primary reason we saw a boom in production over the last couple of years. It has nothing to do with ethanol being environmentally benign (which it obviously isn't).

See: Farmers Earn Bundles Growing Corn for Ethanol

 

Also it beats me why governments are pushing for up to 25% ethanol
blending if it's actually detrimental to the environment...

The Bush administration has never cared about the environment. Until very recently it even refused to admit exist global warming existed. It has been known to actively censor research in climate change.

It also has long standing links with the oil lobby. Pushing ethanol as a green alternative helps divert attention from real alternatives.

Welcome to energy politics. =)

Thanks,
Manu

[Manu Sharma]

Correct link:

Farmers Earn Bundles Growing Corn for Ethanol

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/344649/farmers_earn_bundles_growing_corn_for.html?cat=3

[keva...@aol.com]

Lots of interests are involved: Petroleum interests, government interests, farming interests, supposedly green interests that are just in it for the money. And many of these interests are inter-related.

Remember not all ethanol is a poor energy choice. Cane ethanol is much better for the environment than the old practice of burning off the cane fields where they lay.

Improvements are coming. Gradually.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: greenhorn <spen...@gmail.com>
To: India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living <green...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 6:18 am
Subject: [Green-India] Re: Biofuel Industry and OPEC. A Must Read!

[greenhorn]

Does anybody know the energy input figures for production of bio-
diesel from jatropha and pongamia seeds?

Thanks in advance.
Shyam

> 0A- Hide quoted text -

[Manu Sharma]

On 7/29/08, greenhorn <spen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Does anybody know the energy input figures for production of bio-
> diesel from jatropha and pongamia seeds?

Don't have the figures but among among all bio-fuels, the yield is
highest with Jatropha. Except perhaps biofuel made from algae.

Manu

[mahesh]

Look at this

 

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question707.htm

 

Mahesh

----- Original Message -----

From: Manu Sharma

To: green...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 4:32 PM

Subject: [Green-India] Re: Biofuel Industry and OPEC. A Must Read!

[BhaskarMV]

Hi

Sweet Sorghum may be the best option.

Pl see - http://www.icrisat.org/Biopower/BVSReddyetalSweetSorghumBrochureJan2007.pdf

Louisiana State of US has enacted a law that pushes people to use
Sweet Sorghum as the source for ethanol -
http://www.legis.state.la.us/billdata/streamdocument.asp?did=480484

Dr Palaniswamy of Hyderabad holds a few patents on the technology to
use Sweet Sorghum as feedstock for ethanol, this was developed in
association with ICRISAT.

all the best

Bhaskar

>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Manu Sharma
>   To: green...@googlegroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 4:32 PM
>   Subject: [Green-India] Re: Biofuel Industry and OPEC. A Must Read!
>
>   Correct link:
>
>   Farmers Earn Bundles Growing Corn for Ethanol
>

>  http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/344649/farmers_earn_bundles_...- Hide quoted text -

[Thaddeus Ward]

530 liters of fossil fuel to grow 1 acre of corn seems like a very
high number. Can someone check on that? Or does some one know where
there is reliable data about typical fuel inputs for various crops?

Thanks,
-TW

>  http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/344649/farmers_earn_bundles_...

[mahesh shelar]

dear all i am attaching papers on energy balance of ethanol for claims on favourable or unfavourable balance for corn  read pimental and shapouri we need detailed study in indian context on ethanol from sugarcane and sweet sorghum ,biodiesel from jatropa and pinnata pongomia i am always fascinated by sweet sorghum because it can be grown under rainfed conditions as against sugarcane grown consuming lot of precious water and that too in water deficient regions like maharastra   mahesh       Prof Mahesh Shelar M.Tech Energy Systems Engg Certified Energy Auditor Department of Mechanical Engg KKW Institute of Engg Education and Research NASHIK 9822052351 --- On Wed, 30/7/08, Thaddeus Ward <thadde...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Thaddeus Ward <thadde...@gmail.com> Subject: [Green-India] Re: Biofuel Industry and OPEC. A Must Read!

To: "India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living" <green...@googlegroups.com>

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