How Green are electric scooters (was: Greening Our Schools)

[Manu Sharma]

On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 2:27 AM, Ramakrishna Kandula <ramakrish...@gmail.com> wrote:

But what about the new range of electric bikes that are coming out.
How green are they?

Quite a bit depending upon what you replace by their use. We're buying one so I had already done some calculations. Here's a comparison with a car...

Electric scooter range: 75-80 km
Electricity consumption: 1.58 kWh (Yo Speed)

Small car fuel efficiency in city: 17 km per litre (Maruti 800)  
Same distance by car would use: 77.5/ 17 = 4.56 litre petrol

CO2 emissions from petrol: 2321.544 grams / litre (source)
CO2 emissions from electricity = 703.07 grams / kWh

Car CO2 emissions: 2321.544 x 4.56 = 10.59 kg
Electric scooter CO2 emissions: 703.07 x 1.58 = 1.11 kg

So green by a factor of TEN if you compare it with the most fuel efficient small car in the market.

The difference in terms of savings from fuel cost is much higher (32 times). As is the difference in terms of energy content in fuel used (25 times).

Note, the electric scooter compared here has a max speed of 45 km/h. Most other models in the market come with a maximum speed of 25km/h and consume even less electricity (around 1 kWh).  

The Delhi government has just announced a subsidy of 15% for electric vehicles. Combined with the already exempted sales tax, total subsidy amounts to 29% according to an advertiser.

With the petrol prices skyrocketing it's a great time to consider an electric scooter.

Manu

[Ramakrishna Kandula]

But Manu, you are comparing scooter with a car. But what about with a regular scooter/ bike.

For example, if we get around 50 to 70 km/ liter for a typical scooter/ bike. In this case
only 4 kg of CO2 emissions for a regular bike over 1.1 kg for e-bike.

Which is still good and also reduce our dependence on foreign oil. I think
oil usage is big factor than CO2 here.

And i had this idea in mind if it's only for CO2 factor. I am not sure how practical and feasible it is.
With this we reduce the CO2 footprint to near ZERO.

A fast track battery replacement for e-bikes:

1. Every e-bike owner will get a smart card
2. Just like we have petrol pumps we will have fast track battery replacement centers
    (may be inside petrol bunk itself)
3. Once the e-bike comes we will replace the discharged battery with a fully charged battery.
    (may be takes 5 minutes?) Just like you fill up your regular bike at fueling station.
4. And we will record this replacement in the smart card.
5. We can buy smart cards 10, 25, 50 or 100 charges. (Price per charge may be 10 Rs?)

Advantages:
1. No need to wait to charge the e-bike at home. We will charge it for you.
2. Battery care
3. No need to worry about battery. Free replacement for life.
4. Since it's central we can get the electricity to charge the batteries using solar panels
    to reduce CO2 emissions.

Disadvantages or Issues:
1. Can we change the battery in less than 5 mins?
2. Do all the e-bikes use same battery type?
3. What if the customer doesn't come  back after say 100 charges? Are we loosing a good
    functional battery?

Thanks,
Ramakrishna

[Manu Sharma]

Ramakrishna,

I agree a 4X difference in CO2 emission compared with a petrol bike is still quite significant. There are other advantages as well such as silent operation, no on-road pollution and therefore no health related issues. Plus, if you charge it with solar panels or another renewable energy resource, your emissions essentially reduce to zero.

Battery replacement / quick charging stations are a great idea that some countries are already pursuing. Since electric vehicles (EV's) do not have not mass adoption yet (except perhaps in some Asian countries) standards for batteries / charging can be built into the industry.

There's something called pulse chargers (used on industrial scale) that can charge a battery very quickly (used for charging electric forklifts). Several places in the UK, have already started installing battery charging points. Workplaces might soon follow as EV's get popular.

Manu

[Ramakrishna Kandula]

Hi Manu,

 It's been an year we discussed this idea, Better place unveiled this 500k a piece

 automatic battery swapping station where all the batteries can be charged with solar panels.

 Read on... The video is also kool..

 http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/better-place-unveils-battery-swap-station/

Thanks,

Ramakrishna

[Gunajit]

I like the idea of Battery replacement centers with Smart Card
technology.

I drive Yo Speed (my first motor-vehicle). Its good for city drive,
but not feasible for long distance.

If the above discussed centers came into existence, then problems like
recharging, for E-vehicle owners like me, will be taken care of.

But present models of higher watt powered EV (Yo Speed comes with a
750W motor) have a sealed, undetachable battery pack which can be
reassembled only at the designated service centers.

If the BRCs (Battery replacement centers) (which can be incorporated
within the fuel stations) came into existence, then it will also
generate employment opportunities.

I would like to answer (give an alternative) to Ramakrishna's queries
[in peranthesis]: -

1. Can we change the battery in less than 5 mins? [Time factor might
not be a problem in the long run]
2. Do all the e-bikes use same battery type? [Govt. need to intervene
or impliment a regulation that will standardize all battery packs
(similar like LPG gas units)]

3. What if the customer doesn't come back after say 100 charges? Are

we loosing a good functional battery? [Once the Smart card technology
is implemented, it might not matter, unless the customer doesn't want
to ride the EV or he/she wants to upgrade the vehicle.]

Do share your thoughts on this.

Thanks,
Gunajit B

On May 13, 11:00 pm, Ramakrishna Kandula

<ramakrishna.kand...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Manu,
>  It's been an year we discussed this idea, Better place unveiled this 500k a
> piece
>  automatic battery swapping station where all the batteries can be charged
> with solar panels.
>
>  Read on... The video is also kool..
>

> http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/better-place-unveils-bat...
>
> <http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/better-place-unveils-bat...>

> >> With this we reduce the CO2 footprint to near *ZERO*.

>
> >> A fast track battery replacement for e-bikes:
>
> >> 1. Every e-bike owner will get a smart card
> >> 2. Just like we have petrol pumps we will have fast track battery
> >> replacement centers
> >>     (may be inside petrol bunk itself)
> >> 3. Once the e-bike comes we will replace the discharged battery with a
> >> fully charged battery.
> >>     (may be takes 5 minutes?) Just like you fill up your regular bike at
> >> fueling station.
> >> 4. And we will record this replacement in the smart card.
> >> 5. We can buy smart cards 10, 25, 50 or 100 charges. (Price per charge may
> >> be 10 Rs?)
>
> >> Advantages:
> >> 1. No need to wait to charge the e-bike at home. We will charge it for
> >> you.
> >> 2. Battery care
> >> 3. No need to worry about battery. Free replacement for life.

> >> 4*. Since it's central we can get the electricity to charge the batteries
> >> using solar panels
> >>     to reduce CO2 emissions.*

>
> >> Disadvantages or Issues:
> >> 1. Can we change the battery in less than 5 mins?
> >> 2. Do all the e-bikes use same battery type?
> >> 3. What if the customer doesn't come  back after say 100 charges? Are we
> >> loosing a good
> >>     functional battery?
>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Ramakrishna
>

> >> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Manu Sharma <orangeh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 2:27 AM, Ramakrishna Kandula <
> >>> ramakrishna.kand...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> But what about the new range of electric bikes that are coming out.
> >>>> How green are they?
>
> >>> Quite a bit depending upon what you replace by their use. We're buying
> >>> one so I had already done some calculations. Here's a comparison with a
> >>> car...
>
> >>> Electric scooter range: 75-80 km

> >>> Electricity consumption: 1.58 kWh (Yo Speed<http://www.induselectrans.com/yo_speed.htm>)

>
> >>> Small car fuel efficiency in city: 17 km per litre (Maruti 800)
> >>> Same distance by car would use: 77.5/ 17 = 4.56 litre petrol
>

> >>> CO2 emissions from petrol: 2321.544 grams / litre (source<http://www.epa.gov/OMS/climate/420f05001.htm#calculating%20>
> >>> )

> >>> CO2 emissions from electricity = 703.07 grams / kWh
>

> >>> *Car CO2 emissions*: 2321.544 x 4.56 = *10.59 kg*
> >>> *Electric scooter CO2 emissions*: 703.07 x 1.58 = *1.11 kg*

>
> >>> So green by a factor of TEN if you compare it with the most fuel
> >>> efficient small car in the market.
>
> >>> The difference in terms of savings from fuel cost is much higher (32
> >>> times). As is the difference in terms of energy content in fuel used (25
> >>> times).
>
> >>> Note, the electric scooter compared here has a max speed of 45 km/h. Most
> >>> other models in the market come with a maximum speed of 25km/h and consume
> >>> even less electricity (around 1 kWh).
>
> >>> The Delhi government has just announced a subsidy of 15% for electric
> >>> vehicles. Combined with the already exempted sales tax, total subsidy
> >>> amounts to 29% according to an advertiser.
>
> >>> With the petrol prices skyrocketing it's a great time to consider an
> >>> electric scooter.
>

> >>> Manu- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Sanjay Chitnis]

Regarding Battery replacement, see the interview related to Tesla Roadster, an electric sports car that claims to go 244 miles per charge and sells for $101,500 or more. http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=2240 

We own a Reva car. Battery needs to be replaced after 30000 KM and costs about 60000. And the battery life depends on the usage. The older it becomes, the total capacity keeps on decreasing. So personally, an owner may not like to swap a good battery as the replacement may not be a good battery. I am not sure how much is the cost of Yo battery and how much is the life. But same problem may be valid there.

Charging EVs is not a problem if your total run in a day is less than the battery capacity - one can always charge it overnight. The problem is if range is 80 KM and you want to drive 160. 

Sanjay Chitnis

--
Sanjay Chitnis
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sanjaychitnis
+91 98863 79597/+91 80 25480018
--
It's not what is poured into a student, but what is planted -- Linda Conway

[Sanjay Chitnis]

I read the earlier thread on Shai Agassi of Better Place just now and now I am very optimistic that similar solutions based on infrastructure of quick charging (< 5 min) or battery replacement (batteries owned by infratructure provider) will come up in India for electric 2-wheelers in just a couple of years - probably from Tata after acquiring YoBykes.....

Sanjay Chitnis