Dub? Hold your fire...

[Cristy]

Okay - I realize that this is a controversial topic. But our recent
cold snap, and the traffic on the "how do I keep my water liquid"
thread has me thinking about combs and how they relate to heat loss
from a chicken's body.

I'm seeing my birds with frozen tips after our early snap with several
-25 nights, and although I realize I could switch completely over to
pea or rose combed birds, the realities of my flock consisting of
neighbor's orpingtons, washed up production layers, sex links and
barnyard mutts makes me wonder how that naked flap of skin up there
affects a bird's ability to control it's temperature in cold
weather.

I know that chickens were originally tropical creatures, and I would
guess that a comb may have at least in part evolved to radiate heat,
like ears of an elephant. I know that the jack rabbit ears here sure
(western wy) look different than the jack rabbit ears in Az, (I'm sure
a function of heat regulation) and I wonder if a dubbed chicken might
be able to keep him/her self warmer.

I've read several things about dubbing, and with emotional uproar it's
hard to sort out what was really behind the practice, (other than
making a fighting cock more sleek) and how it functions (or doesn't)
with regard to heat loss. I've read the following:
1. Dubbing early in a birds life can help keep it small (huh?)
2. Frostbite can cause sterility (why would that be? just the
stress? or is frostbite an indicator of being too cold for too long,
which might have fallout in other areas of the bird's health? Why
would freezing tips hurt a bird if chopping the whole comb doesn't?

I'm not saying I'm going to dub all my flock... it's just something
I've been curious about. I hope this is a place for rational
discussion about this - I know it's done for game birds, both show
and.... well... "game". I'd like some input from truly informed folks
about how traumatic is really is, how real the inherent risks might
be, and how (or if) it would affect the way single combed hens and
roosters cope with the cold.
I understand that there may be some big philosophical opposition
here. I hope folks will set their initial reaction aside and let
those with knowledge of the history and practice say what they have to
say.
Thanks for humoring a curious Wyomingite..
Once again - I may cross post this question to "yardpoultry" and see
what they say over there... forgive me if you see it twice.
Cristy

[Robert Plamondon]

I've never seen the point of dubbing. For one thing, I'm not convinced
that rose-comb and pea-comb chickens do any better than single-comb
ones in the winter. Every single commercially successful breed is
single-combed, and always has been, so how big of an issue can it be,
really?

I'm a big advocate of "First, do as little as possible and see how
that works." That way, you only try to solve problems that are really
real, and really happen to you. Otherwise, life is one big snipe hunt.

Robert Plamondon
http://www.plamondon.com

[Karen]

I have had single-comb roosters over winter and yes, sometimes they do get
some frostbite on their combs. If you want to show them that would be an
issue -- although most single-comb breeds can't be dubbed if you're showing
them -- but I haven't noticed any other problems with their overall health.
Of course, I always have too many roosters so it's hard to tell whether one
is infertile, and I don't let too many hens set anyway because we use the
eggs.

I have an embden gander who actually froze his penis -- long story -- but he
recovered and at least thinks he was the father of the goslings born the
next summer. Personally, I think the toulouse was the father but the embden
was the one guarding the nest and then the babies along with the mother. He
definitely still mates -- no idea whether it's effective because again we
have multiple goose boys, but SOMEONE is getting the job done because we had
goslings again last summer.

Anyway, I agree with Robert, don't do anything unless it's really necessary.

Just my two cents. . .

Karen in MT

[Cristy]

Thanks, Karen - and Robert. I don't want my "life to be a snipe hunt"
*grin* - (I like that concept - I could apply it to a lot of
situations)
and I will adopt a "wait and see" attitude this winter... I'm just
concerned because I'm seeing evidence of freezing, (blackened tips,
white apparently dead backs of combs, hens and roosters both) and I
hope there isn't an ounce of prevention that I should be using to help
them adapt...
It's balmy right now, 12 above, and they are out picking through
their hay and table scraps... I'm pretty sure the damage is happening
during the day when they are out, because I'm keeping the house warm
enough to keep the water liquid. A neighbor gave me a rooster that
he'd rescued from someone yesterday who is missing most of his claws
and toe ends, so I know the potential is there for some real damage.
His entire comb is missing as well - I can't tell if it was frozen off
or something else happened to him, but his head looks like one of
those game cocks, except that I think he's a leghorn...see what you
think -

http://picasaweb.google.com/cristyanspach/NewChickens#

Crossing my fingers... telling my sweeties to be tough!
Cristy

[Chris Squires]

I believe dubbing is done at hatching, when the comb is not that
developed. I wouldn't try it on an adult bird. It's a little like
castrating a larger animal -- tissues which are still small and have
little blood supply at birth will grow quite a bit more complicated and
full of blood vessels and nerves in the adult.

A bird dubbed at hatching will not suffer from comb injuries -- which
are, after all, amputations or worse. It was done to save the bird
from stress and pain and possible death from an injury. It still
works. It was done for certain breeds in the past, and is still done
because 1) some types of birds are more likely to go looking for trouble
and 2) it is the way a well-groomed bird of that breed looks (Game
Birds). It is a little like ear-cropping on terriers. For people who
object strongly to dubbing, I want you to think about how some breeds
are fiestier and will get into mischief -- whether it is tangling with a
thorn bush, roosting outdoors during ice-storms, squabbling amongst
themselves or protecting their hens from a predator attack.

Frostbite may cause infertility for a while in an adult bird because the
bird is so terribly stressed -- depending on how bad it is, it can
become a major amputation or start gangrene. Really rough on the animal.

Side note: Actually, most dubbing, ear-cropping and tail docking in
agriculture was due to trying to keep animals alive in a harsh world in
the days before antibiotics. Now that we have some working antibiotics,
people think it is unnecessary, however, if our antibiotics all stop
working, it may not look so cruel or harsh compared to letting an animal
die of gangrene when an injury gets out of hand. That was a daily
certainty in the bad old days, pre-science.

Think about it -- a nice soft and delicate bit of tissue full of blood
is bitten by a cat or raccoon's dirty teeth -- infection sets in. It
could get really nasty and deadly.
I wouldn't dub your adult birds, but consider ordering rose-combed or
other short-combed birds in the future (try the Russian Orloff or the
Canadian Chantecleer or any of the Wyandottes). Or order your
production chicks pre-dubbed at the hatchery.

Just a thought.
Chris
Little Biddy Farm

--

"Humankind cannot take too much reality."
T.S. Eliot

[Chris Squires]

Well, I had a Toulouse goose (female) guard a turkey hen on eggs for at
least four weeks (28 days to hatch, another two weeks before that to lay
the eggs) and they hatched out nine baby turkeys! You should have
seen the proud parents! :)

However, they did this in August.

Chris
Little Biddy Farm

[Chris Squires]

He's got frostbite on his ear lobes and cheeks, but it is hard to
determine what's going on with the comb. It doesn't look particularly
damaged (usually the tissue turns purple and black where something has
sloughed off recently - -his earlobes may turn black as he starts to
heal). I suspect that he was from a commercial flock and he was dubbed.

Another possibility is that he is older, and lost some of it earlier in
the year or last year -- in which case he has already recovered from
that trauma.

Good luck with him.

Chris
Little Biddy Farm

Cristy wrote:

> A neighbor gave me a rooster that
> he'd rescued from someone yesterday who is missing most of his claws
> and toe ends, so I know the potential is there for some real damage.
> His entire comb is missing as well - I can't tell if it was frozen off
> or something else happened to him, but his head looks like one of
> those game cocks, except that I think he's a leghorn...see what you
> think -
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/cristyanspach/NewChickens#
>
> Crossing my fingers... telling my sweeties to be tough!
> Cristy
>
>
> On Dec 15, 11:15 am, "Karen" <kschoen...@q.com> wrote:
>
>> I have had single-comb roosters over winter and yes, sometimes they do get
>> some frostbite on their combs.
>>
>
>

[Cristy]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Chris.
I think that he is older.. and from the looks of his feet I'm sure the
damage occurred last winter or before.
That skin with the white on his ears are does look frosted, but it's
not - it's just the whitish pigment that Mediterranean breeds have...
I caught him and felt it and looked close. He doesn't have any
frostbite on him right now - and that comb looks dubbed to me too. I
wondered if somebody had used him to fight, but they usually take
wattles too, as I understand it. I hadn't thought of a commercial
flock. Hmmmm.....
It's interesting, anyway. He's surprisingly meek.
Cristy