Reality Check

[N. Tedesco]

"Once that happens, perhaps the critical mass will be reached and
agencies at that time will have no choice but to join or be left
behind."
(from a post in late May)

It's nice to see so many people want Google to add their local transit
agency, but I'd like to provide a little reality check regarding what
that means for smaller agencies.

Google does not add transit agency data; transit agencies compile
their data and make it available to Google. If an agency does not
have a scheduling database or other software with export capabilities
and keeps their schedules in spreadsheets or on pieces of paper, this
means literally writing the GTFS line-by-line! And proofreading/
troubleshooting it line-by-line! And maintaining it line-by-line! If
that transit agency also has only one tech person on staff to handle
all of the office hardware and software and on-bus hardware and
software, I hope you can see why Google Transit is a lovely idea, but
unlikely to happen for that agency.

It's not that transit agencies are digging in their heels and refusing
to join, as suggested by that post in late May. I think that a lot of
agencies would love to join. The issue is that building and
maintaining the GTFS is a burden and we don't have the resources to
carry it.

So, this is my challenge to Google and to all of you transit buffs out
there: build us a very cheap or free database or other software that
will maintain schedule data and export to GTFS. There are products
out there on the market, but they cost an arm, a leg, and your
firstborn. There is huge market potential for someone to build an
excellent product, sneak into the market, and grab up all of the
smaller customers that wouldn't touch one of the big companies (and
vice versa).

Thanks for reading. Best wishes to everyone in the transit & Google
communities.

Nicole Tedesco
Service & Operations Analyst
TCAT
Tompkins County, NY

[Brian Bradford]

No, the problem stands with agencies who are short-sighted combined with a governmental structure that doesn't want to catch up with the times and/or wants to ignore the importance of public transportation.

In the transit governance area, there's a lot of "out of sight, out of mind"' of which I'm personally aware.

Sad but true.

Brian Bradford
Kennewick, WA

[N. Tedesco]

> No, the problem stands with agencies who are short-sighted combined with a governmental structure that doesn't want to catch up with the times and/or wants to ignore the importance of public transportation.
>
> In the transit governance area, there's a lot of "out of sight, out of mind"' of which I'm personally aware.

Brian, I don't understand what you mean. Would you please elaborate
on what you mean by short-sighted transit agencies and governmental
structure and how that relates to resource constraints that prevent
small transit agencies from taking advantage of the opportunity of
Google Transit?

Nicole Tedesco

[Roger L. Cauvin]

Nicole,

Is your agency's area covered by the Trips123.com trip planner?

Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: google...@googlegroups.com [mailto:google...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of N. Tedesco
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:53 AM
To: Google Labs - Google Transit Trip Planner

[N. Tedesco]

Roger:

No, we are not in Trips123.com. We have discussed the possibility of
including TCAT with Jim Davis of NYSDOT, but we decided that it wasn't
the right choice for us at this time, mostly because (when I spoke to
them last) they were still at "proof of concept" stage for the Upstate
region. That may have changed since our last conversation, and I know
the trip planner is already functional for the Downstate region. What
I liked most about Trips123.com is that it has a great user interface
for managing data.

I think that's what it comes down to: Google Transit needs an
interface for entering data. Of course, it would be great to
integrate it into other software that transit agencies use, but just
having a form to enter a time table and have the trips automatically
be extracted would be a fantastic start.

Nicole

[Bob Heitzman]

The GTFS structure is a bit complex but I think it is manageable with
typical MS Office tools like Excel or Access.

Most of the data a transit planner can provide without too much
difficulty.

Good documentation would make the job a lot easier for the planner to
get over the Google Transit learning curve. Just defining the table
structure is not enough. A user manual is needed.

One area that a planner would need support with is building the stops
and shape records, mainly coming up with the lat/long values. I would
guess most current transit maps are built using drawing tools like
Photoshop and the planners do not have the accurate GIS data needed
for the GTFS tables.

Perhaps the Google Transit team could come up with some Google Map
tools that allow the creation of the stops and shape records. For
example a tool that would allow one to define a route turn by turn and
then export the result, could even be to a simple text web page that
could be copied and pasted into Excel sheet using the same columns as
the shapes data:

shape_id,shape_pt_lat,shape_pt_lon,shape_pt_sequence,shape_dist_traveled

All the planner would need to do is then change the shape_id to match
their other data.

Ditto for stops:
stop_id,stop_name,stop_desc,stop_lat,stop_lon,zone_id,stop_url

The tool would only need to provide lat/long and blanks for temp data
for the reset of the fields. If the tool could begin a session and let
the user add points until they have a batch defined before export that
would be great. Even a simple lat and long would be fine and the user
can paste into excel intot he proper spot.

The above GIS tricks are easy for someone with the right GIS tools but
I would guess most small agencies can barely spell GIS. Both of the
above features would be useful to many Google Map users for other
purposes. Maybe the tool could be sold as a way for the user to
generate KML files using point and clicks in Google Map. Or perhaps a
Google Earth extension to do the same would be more appropriate for
the Google Transit task?

Another suggestion: improve the Google Transit import routtines to
handle .CSV files exported from Excel and/or Access.

[Brian Bradford]

From my time in New York, a couple of perfect examples that come to mind are PART (putnam county transit), MTA Long Island Bus (collapsing under high ridership and a neglectful Nassau County Legislature who's more interested in the doings of the agnelli boys than in providing essential public services), and Suffolk Transit (who seem to have yet to capture that public transit is a public service, not a business).

Understand, of course that my prejudices about transit systems are based upon being from the beautiful state of Washington, where we have rain forests and deserts, both in the same county, and some of the best hiking in the world. Oh, and did I mention, public transit that can take you anywhere you want to go west of the cascade mountains.

Brian Bradford
Kennewick, WA

-----Original Message-----
From: "N. Tedesco" <nt1....@gmail.com>

[N. Tedesco]

@ Bob:

I agree that defining spatial characteristics is a challenge, but
there actually is a large pool of resources already established for
handling transit-related GIS issues. MPOs (metropolitan planning
organizations, which are involved in regional transportation planning)
often provide GIS support for transit agencies, as do county or State
governments, universities and other educational institutions, etc.
But I agree that it can be a challenge to track down the necessary
resources, and there may be other regions or states that don't have
the type of institutional support that we get here in Ithaca, NY.

The agency for which I work has an ArcGIS (ESRI) license, but I
personally prefer Google Earth because it's better suited to my needs
(i.e. looking up small batches of GPS coordinates).

@ Brian:

I haven't had any coffee yet today, but I still don't get the
connection between the transit agencies you cited, Washington's
transit agencies, and resource constraints that prevent agencies from
joining Google Transit. But like I said, I'm not awake yet!

I'm glad to see that this has generated some interesting
conversation. Thanks, all!
Nicole

[cuec...@gmail.com]

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