The Google App Engine SDK currently only has functionality for sending
your app up to Google's servers... it would be nice if we could also
run this process in reverse.
I work on several different machines (and even operating systems)
depending on where I am, so it would be nice to be able to pull the
latest build down from Google instead of lugging it around on a Flash
drive.
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 2:42 PM, SimianLogic <learnyoura...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Google App Engine SDK currently only has functionality for sending > your app up to Google's servers... it would be nice if we could also > run this process in reverse.
> I work on several different machines (and even operating systems) > depending on where I am, so it would be nice to be able to pull the > latest build down from Google instead of lugging it around on a Flash > drive.
Can't you just check-in your app into a source control repository (or
use Google Code if it's an open source app) and then just check it out
onto your different development boxes?
Carrying source code on a Flash drive is not a good idea.
On Apr 9, 3:42 pm, SimianLogic <learnyoura...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Google App Engine SDK currently only has functionality for sending
> your app up to Google's servers... it would be nice if we could also
> run this process in reverse.
> I work on several different machines (and even operating systems)
> depending on where I am, so it would be nice to be able to pull the
> latest build down from Google instead of lugging it around on a Flash
> drive.
@Ryan
Missed that one. I'm not a big fan of the proposal, though it might
work. It would essentially mean zipping your entire directory and
placing it on there as a static file every time you update, which
seems a bit cumbersome.
@Mahmoud
That's one solution, but again--seems cumbersome. You'd have to both
check your code in to Google Apps and then check your code in to
source control every time. (I'm not actually using a flash drive--I
just uploaded it to another server of mine.)
Both solutions require an unnecessary step IMHO--especially
considering that Google appears to be doing some sort of version
control on their backend already.
Honestly, I'd prefer to skip the local setup entirely--these python
scripts are just text-files, so I don't see why we couldn't just edit
them online. That would allow me to work on it with any connected
computer/OS.
On Apr 9, 1:02 pm, Mahmoud <mahmoud.ar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can't you just check-in your app into a source control repository (or
> use Google Code if it's an open source app) and then just check it out
> onto your different development boxes?
> Carrying source code on a Flash drive is not a good idea.
> On Apr 9, 3:42 pm, SimianLogic <learnyoura...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The Google App Engine SDK currently only has functionality for sending
> > your app up to Google's servers... it would be nice if we could also
> > run this process in reverse.
> > I work on several different machines (and even operating systems)
> > depending on where I am, so it would be nice to be able to pull the
> > latest build down from Google instead of lugging it around on a Flash
> > drive.
I agree with SimianLogic.
Collaborating on code with a distributed team would be a lot easier if
you could just open the files online and edit them, Google Docs
style.
I'd certainly love to edit my apps from anywhere.
Since you can't write to the disk from your own app, it appears this
would be hard to build ourselves.
Thanks to Ryan and Brett for the tip on storing the source code.
Filip.
On Apr 9, 10:11 pm, SimianLogic <learnyoura...@gmail.com> wrote:
> @Ryan
> Missed that one. I'm not a big fan of the proposal, though it might
> work. It would essentially mean zipping your entire directory and
> placing it on there as a static file every time you update, which
> seems a bit cumbersome.
> @Mahmoud
> That's one solution, but again--seems cumbersome. You'd have to both
> check your code in to Google Apps and then check your code in to
> sourcecontrolevery time. (I'm not actually using a flash drive--I
> just uploaded it to another server of mine.)
> Both solutions require an unnecessary step IMHO--especially
> considering that Google appears to be doing some sort ofversioncontrolon their backend already.
> Honestly, I'd prefer to skip the local setup entirely--these python
> scripts are just text-files, so I don't see why we couldn't just edit
> them online. That would allow me to work on it with any connected
> computer/OS.
> On Apr 9, 1:02 pm, Mahmoud <mahmoud.ar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Can't you just check-in your app into a sourcecontrolrepository (or
> > use Google Code if it's an open source app) and then just check it out
> > onto your different development boxes?
> > Carrying source code on a Flash drive is not a good idea.
> > On Apr 9, 3:42 pm, SimianLogic <learnyoura...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The Google App Engine SDK currently only has functionality for sending
> > > your app up to Google's servers... it would be nice if we could also
> > > run this process in reverse.
> > > I work on several different machines (and even operating systems)
> > > depending on where I am, so it would be nice to be able to pull the
> > > latest build down from Google instead of lugging it around on a Flash
> > > drive.- Hide quoted text -
I agree with Mahmoud - use subversion/cvs/git/etc for managing your
source. While GAE may do some version control of your deployed
application, you can only rely on that if you conclude every
development session with a deployable, stable code base. What happens
when you want to save some changes you made on machine 1 so you can go
to machine 2 but you're not in a state at which you can (or want) to
deploy? What if more than one person is working on the code base? It
quickly breaks down, but source code repositories meet these needs
well. Also, if Google is the only place you have your source all your
eggs are in one basket - that might be acceptable for email, but I'd
rather have my source backed up to another location as well (and my
email too, for that matter).
Joel
On Apr 22, 2:01 pm, Filip <filip.verhae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with SimianLogic.
> Collaborating on code with a distributed team would be a lot easier if
> you could just open the files online and edit them, Google Docs
> style.
> I'd certainly love to edit my apps from anywhere.
> Since you can't write to the disk from your own app, it appears this
> would be hard to build ourselves.
> Thanks to Ryan and Brett for the tip on storing the source code.
> Filip.
> On Apr 9, 10:11 pm, SimianLogic <learnyoura...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > @Ryan
> > Missed that one. I'm not a big fan of the proposal, though it might
> > work. It would essentially mean zipping your entire directory and
> > placing it on there as a static file every time you update, which
> > seems a bit cumbersome.
> > @Mahmoud
> > That's one solution, but again--seems cumbersome. You'd have to both
> > check your code in to Google Apps and then check your code in to
> > sourcecontrolevery time. (I'm not actually using a flash drive--I
> > just uploaded it to another server of mine.)
> > Both solutions require an unnecessary step IMHO--especially
> > considering that Google appears to be doing some sort ofversioncontrolon their backend already.
> > Honestly, I'd prefer to skip the local setup entirely--these python
> > scripts are just text-files, so I don't see why we couldn't just edit
> > them online. That would allow me to work on it with any connected
> > computer/OS.
> > On Apr 9, 1:02 pm, Mahmoud <mahmoud.ar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Can't you just check-in your app into a sourcecontrolrepository (or
> > > use Google Code if it's an open source app) and then just check it out
> > > onto your different development boxes?
> > > Carrying source code on a Flash drive is not a good idea.
> > > > The Google App Engine SDK currently only has functionality for sending
> > > > your app up to Google's servers... it would be nice if we could also
> > > > run this process in reverse.
> > > > I work on several different machines (and even operating systems)
> > > > depending on where I am, so it would be nice to be able to pull the
> > > > latest build down from Google instead of lugging it around on a Flash
> > > > drive.- Hide quoted text -
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Filip <filip.verhae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with SimianLogic. > Collaborating on code with a distributed team would be a lot easier if > you could just open the files online and edit them, Google Docs > style. > I'd certainly love to edit my apps from anywhere. > Since you can't write to the disk from your own app, it appears this > would be hard to build ourselves.
so let me see if I got this right, you want to edit an application while it's running? what happens if you make a mistake, you will bring the system down?
> Thanks to Ryan and Brett for the tip on storing the source code.
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Filip <filip.verhae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I agree with SimianLogic. > > Collaborating on code with a distributed team would be a lot easier if > > you could just open the files online and edit them, Google Docs > > style. > > I'd certainly love to edit my apps from anywhere. > > Since you can't write to the disk from your own app, it appears this > > would be hard to build ourselves. > so let me see if I got this right, you want to edit an application > while it's running? what happens if you make a mistake, you will bring > the system down?
> > Thanks to Ryan and Brett for the tip on storing the source code.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:04 AM, Peter Svensson <psvens...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm editing my GAE apps while they're running all the time. It just works.
no you are running your next version of the app while the old version is running.
> On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:22 AM, Jorge Vargas <jorge.var...@gmail.com> > wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Filip <filip.verhae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I agree with SimianLogic. > > > Collaborating on code with a distributed team would be a lot easier if > > > you could just open the files online and edit them, Google Docs > > > style. > > > I'd certainly love to edit my apps from anywhere. > > > Since you can't write to the disk from your own app, it appears this > > > would be hard to build ourselves. > > so let me see if I got this right, you want to edit an application > > while it's running? what happens if you make a mistake, you will bring > > the system down?
> > > Thanks to Ryan and Brett for the tip on storing the source code.
Hmm. I'm not quite sure I'm following you. DO you mean that there are two version of the same app being run on port 8080 when I save the file I'm editin and the new behavior just shows?
Cheers, PS
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 7:23 AM, Jorge Vargas <jorge.var...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:04 AM, Peter Svensson <psvens...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > I'm editing my GAE apps while they're running all the time. It just > works.
> no you are running your next version of the app while the old version > is running. > > Cheers, > > PS
> > On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:22 AM, Jorge Vargas <jorge.var...@gmail.com> > > wrote:
> > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Filip <filip.verhae...@gmail.com> > wrote:
> > > > I agree with SimianLogic. > > > > Collaborating on code with a distributed team would be a lot easier > if > > > > you could just open the files online and edit them, Google Docs > > > > style. > > > > I'd certainly love to edit my apps from anywhere. > > > > Since you can't write to the disk from your own app, it appears > this > > > > would be hard to build ourselves. > > > so let me see if I got this right, you want to edit an application > > > while it's running? what happens if you make a mistake, you will bring > > > the system down?
> > > > Thanks to Ryan and Brett for the tip on storing the source code.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Peter Svensson <psvens...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hmm. I'm not quite sure I'm following you. DO you mean that there are two > version of the same app being run on port 8080 when I save the file I'm > editin and the new behavior just shows?
no that is what the original poster suggested, I totally disagree with it.
> On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 7:23 AM, Jorge Vargas <jorge.var...@gmail.com> > wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:04 AM, Peter Svensson <psvens...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > I'm editing my GAE apps while they're running all the time. It just > works.
> > no you are running your next version of the app while the old version > > is running.
> > > Cheers, > > > PS
> > > On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:22 AM, Jorge Vargas <jorge.var...@gmail.com> > > > wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Filip <filip.verhae...@gmail.com> > wrote:
> > > > > I agree with SimianLogic. > > > > > Collaborating on code with a distributed team would be a lot easier > if > > > > > you could just open the files online and edit them, Google Docs > > > > > style. > > > > > I'd certainly love to edit my apps from anywhere. > > > > > Since you can't write to the disk from your own app, it appears > this > > > > > would be hard to build ourselves. > > > > so let me see if I got this right, you want to edit an application > > > > while it's running? what happens if you make a mistake, you will bring > > > > the system down?
> > > > > Thanks to Ryan and Brett for the tip on storing the source code.
> On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Peter Svensson <psvens...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hmm. I'm not quite sure I'm following you. DO you mean that there are two
> > version of the same app being run on port 8080 when I save the file I'm
> > editin and the new behavior just shows?
> no that is what the original poster suggested, I totally disagree with it.
> > Cheers,
> > PS
> > On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 7:23 AM, Jorge Vargas <jorge.var...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:04 AM, Peter Svensson <psvens...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > I'm editing my GAE apps while they're running all the time. It just
> > works.
> > > no you are running your next version of the app while the old version
> > > is running.
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > PS
> > > > On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:22 AM, Jorge Vargas <jorge.var...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Filip <filip.verhae...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > I agree with SimianLogic.
> > > > > > Collaborating on code with a distributed team would be a lot easier
> > if
> > > > > > you could just open the files online and edit them, Google Docs
> > > > > > style.
> > > > > > I'd certainly love to edit my apps from anywhere.
> > > > > > Since you can't write to the disk from your own app, it appears
> > this
> > > > > > would be hard to build ourselves.
> > > > > so let me see if I got this right, you want to edit an application
> > > > > while it's running? what happens if you make a mistake, you will bring
> > > > > the system down?
> > > > > > Thanks to Ryan and Brett for the tip on storing the source code.
Off course you need to take the best parts of source code repositories. You seem to be under the impression that source code repositories are incompatible with a Google integration. I believe the contrary is true.
Google App Engine appears to have version control built-in natively. I don't think it is fully activated yet, since you can't seem to set older versions as the default version in the Admin panel. But the presence of the "default" button shows that this is precisely what they intend to do (any advise on activating this feature is welcome!).
Obviously, the idea is that you work on the version that comes after the default version, which is not live to the users but which is live for development and testing. Only after things are thoroughly tested through, the users are upgraded.
When you talk about things breaking down when more than one person works on a piece of code, I'd like to offer you an analogy. Everyone knows that you "can't" edit the same Word/Excel document with more than one person. "Things break down pretty quickly" certainly applies. Certainly, for documents it would be a good idea to put them into a source repository. And that is exactly what many companies working with teams on documents do.
But then Google Docs did things differently (to be sure, they weren't the first or only ones - but that is not relevant here). Google Docs shows that you CAN work on the same piece of document (it could be the same piece of source code) with multiple people, see each others changes in real time, and still make sense of it all. In fact, you can build better documents faster this way. I've used Google Docs for many multi-location collaboration documents, and it is really great for that.
My point is that you appear to think that traditional source code repositories are the only and best way to do things. I disagree. A different way, and in my view better - but this is perhaps just my preference, would be to simply have version control on everything you do. Create a new python file on the server, edit it, press "test" (or "publish" or "save"). Test early, often and incremental. Never do anything without source control. If you open a file already being edited by someone else, you wouldn't need to check out unreserved copies that you need to merge later, simply see the edits of the other person as he is typing along. Web development would actually be easier than desktop development. That was hard to even consider before GAE came along. Today, I can see it happen.
The nice thing is that Google has already implemented most pieces to do this. So that's my take on the ideal evolution for the GAE development environment (I hope Google is reading). But you are obviously free to use SVN or other tools you feel are more suited. There's more than one way to do things here.
> I agree with Mahmoud - use subversion/cvs/git/etc for managing your > source. While GAE may do some version control of your deployed > application, you can only rely on that if you conclude every > development session with a deployable, stable code base. What happens > when you want to save some changes you made on machine 1 so you can go > to machine 2 but you're not in a state at which you can (or want) to > deploy? What if more than one person is working on the code base? It > quickly breaks down, but source code repositories meet these needs > well. Also, if Google is the only place you have your source all your > eggs are in one basket - that might be acceptable for email, but I'd > rather have my source backed up to another location as well (and my > email too, for that matter).
> Joel
> On Apr 22, 2:01 pm, Filip <filip.verhae...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I agree with SimianLogic. > > Collaborating on code with a distributed team would be a lot easier if > > you could just open the files online and edit them, Google Docs > > style. > > I'd certainly love to edit my apps from anywhere. > > Since you can't write to the disk from your own app, it appears this > > would be hard to build ourselves.
> > Thanks to Ryan and Brett for the tip on storing the source code.
> > Filip.
> > On Apr 9, 10:11 pm, SimianLogic <learnyoura...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > @Ryan > > > Missed that one. I'm not a big fan of the proposal, though it might > > > work. It would essentially mean zipping your entire directory and > > > placing it on there as a static file every time you update, which > > > seems a bit cumbersome.
> > > @Mahmoud > > > That's one solution, but again--seems cumbersome. You'd have to both > > > check your code in to Google Apps and then check your code in to > > > sourcecontrolevery time. (I'm not actually using a flash drive--I > > > just uploaded it to another server of mine.)
> > > Both solutions require an unnecessary step IMHO--especially > > > considering that Google appears to be doing some sort > ofversioncontrolon their backend already.
> > > Honestly, I'd prefer to skip the local setup entirely--these python > > > scripts are just text-files, so I don't see why we couldn't just edit > > > them online. That would allow me to work on it with any connected > > > computer/OS.
> > > > Can't you just check-in your app into a sourcecontrolrepository (or > > > > use Google Code if it's an open source app) and then just check it > out > > > > onto your different development boxes? > > > > Carrying source code on a Flash drive is not a good idea.
> > > > > The Google App Engine SDK currently only has functionality for > sending > > > > > your app up to Google's servers... it would be nice if we could > also > > > > > run this process in reverse.
> > > > > I work on several different machines (and even operating systems) > > > > > depending on where I am, so it would be nice to be able to pull > the > > > > > latest build down from Google instead of lugging it around on a > Flash > > > > > drive.- Hide quoted text -
Perhaps there are two different discussions going on here. In its
current state GAE does not provide the functionality of SVN (or some
other SCM), so I'd encourage the use of SVN + GAE for accomplishing
what SimianLogic wanted:
>I work on several different machines (and even operating systems)
>depending on where I am, so it would be nice to be able to pull the
>latest build down from Google instead of lugging it around on a Flash
>drive.
I agree that things don't have to be this way and I can see an
argument for online development. When I read your first comment about
Google Docs I immediately thought of Google Mashup Editor (http://
code.google.com/gme/) - if you want proof that online development is
possible, there you go :)
On Apr 23, 12:00 am, "Filip Verhaeghe" <filip.verhae...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> To JoelPM and related remarks:
> Off course you need to take the best parts of source code repositories. You
> seem to be under the impression that source code repositories are
> incompatible with a Google integration. I believe the contrary is true.
No, not really. I just don't see any evidence that things are headed
that way.
> Google App Engine appears to have version control built-in natively. I don't
> think it is fully activated yet, since you can't seem to set older versions
> as the default version in the Admin panel. But the presence of the "default"
> button shows that this is precisely what they intend to do (any advise on
> activating this feature is welcome!).
I believe that GAE's versioning will be geared more towards allowing
you to revert to a last known good configuration if something should
go wrong - similar to the way Capistrano (http://capify.org/) keeps
around old deployed versions so you can quickly revert. I could be
wrong, but I don't necessarily see this as being an indicator that GAE
is going to incorporate a full source control solution.
> Obviously, the idea is that you work on the version that comes after the
> default version, which is not live to the users but which is live for
> development and testing. Only after things are thoroughly tested through,
> the users are upgraded.
> When you talk about things breaking down when more than one person works on
> a piece of code, I'd like to offer you an analogy. Everyone knows that you
> "can't" edit the same Word/Excel document with more than one person. "Things
> break down pretty quickly" certainly applies. Certainly, for documents it
> would be a good idea to put them into a source repository. And that is
> exactly what many companies working with teams on documents do.
> But then Google Docs did things differently (to be sure, they weren't the
> first or only ones - but that is not relevant here). Google Docs shows that
> you CAN work on the same piece of document (it could be the same piece of
> source code) with multiple people, see each others changes in real time, and
> still make sense of it all. In fact, you can build better documents faster
> this way. I've used Google Docs for many multi-location collaboration
> documents, and it is really great for that.
I agree that it's possible - SubEthaEdit did that before Google Docs
did (and I'm sure they weren't the first) - but I'm not convinced that
it's better than using SVN and merging changes.
> My point is that you appear to think that traditional source code
> repositories are the only and best way to do things. I disagree.
I don't think it's the only way; I do think it's the best way
currently available. But, I also respect your right to disagree with
me.
> A different
> way, and in my view better - but this is perhaps just my preference, would
> be to simply have version control on everything you do. Create a new python
> file on the server, edit it, press "test" (or "publish" or "save"). Test
> early, often and incremental. Never do anything without source control.
I would also like to see this happen. I've thought on-and-off about
having my home dir stuck in SVN.
> If
> you open a file already being edited by someone else, you wouldn't need to
> check out unreserved copies that you need to merge later, simply see the
> edits of the other person as he is typing along.
This is a different concept that version control - when you're
simultaneously editing a file with someone else you lose, or at least
dilute, the concept of versions.
> Web development would
> actually be easier than desktop development. That was hard to even consider
> before GAE came along. Today, I can see it happen.
I think Google Mashup Editor is a good argument for doing development
in a web-browser.
> The nice thing is that Google has already implemented most pieces to do
> this. So that's my take on the ideal evolution for the GAE development
> environment (I hope Google is reading). But you are obviously free to use
> SVN or other tools you feel are more suited. There's more than one way to do
> things here.
Agreed. Like I said, think there are two different discussions going
on here. One discussion is about the best way to manage source editing
across multiple computers and the other discussion is about how things
could be done differently in the future.
> On 4/22/08, JoelPM <joel.me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I agree with Mahmoud - use subversion/cvs/git/etc for managing your
> > source. While GAE may do some version control of your deployed
> > application, you can only rely on that if you conclude every
> > development session with a deployable, stable code base. What happens
> > when you want to save some changes you made on machine 1 so you can go
> > to machine 2 but you're not in a state at which you can (or want) to
> > deploy? What if more than one person is working on the code base? It
> > quickly breaks down, but source code repositories meet these needs
> > well. Also, if Google is the only place you have your source all your
> > eggs are in one basket - that might be acceptable for email, but I'd
> > rather have my source backed up to another location as well (and my
> > email too, for that matter).
> > Joel
> > On Apr 22, 2:01 pm, Filip <filip.verhae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I agree with SimianLogic.
> > > Collaborating on code with a distributed team would be a lot easier if
> > > you could just open the files online and edit them, Google Docs
> > > style.
> > > I'd certainly love to edit my apps from anywhere.
> > > Since you can't write to the disk from your own app, it appears this
> > > would be hard to build ourselves.
> > > Thanks to Ryan and Brett for the tip on storing the source code.
> > > > @Ryan
> > > > Missed that one. I'm not a big fan of the proposal, though it might
> > > > work. It would essentially mean zipping your entire directory and
> > > > placing it on there as a static file every time you update, which
> > > > seems a bit cumbersome.
> > > > @Mahmoud
> > > > That's one solution, but again--seems cumbersome. You'd have to both
> > > > check your code in to Google Apps and then check your code in to
> > > > sourcecontrolevery time. (I'm not actually using a flash drive--I
> > > > just uploaded it to another server of mine.)
> > > > Both solutions require an unnecessary step IMHO--especially
> > > > considering that Google appears to be doing some sort
> > ofversioncontrolon their backend already.
> > > > Honestly, I'd prefer to skip the local setup entirely--these python
> > > > scripts are just text-files, so I don't see why we couldn't just edit
> > > > them online. That would allow me to work on it with any connected
> > > > computer/OS.
> > > > > Can't you just check-in your app into a sourcecontrolrepository (or
> > > > > use Google Code if it's an open source app) and then just check it
> > out
> > > > > onto your different development boxes?
> > > > > Carrying source code on a Flash drive is not a good idea.
> > > > > > The Google App Engine SDK currently only has functionality for
> > sending
> > > > > > your app up to Google's servers... it would be nice if we could
> > also
> > > > > > run this process in reverse.
> > > > > > I work on several different machines (and even operating systems)
> > > > > > depending on where I am, so it would be nice to be able to pull
> > the
> > > > > > latest build down from Google instead of lugging it around on a
> > Flash
> > > > > > drive.- Hide quoted text -
Wrt diluting versions, that is true to a certain extend. It is
certainly something to think about, especially in a context where part
of the development team is working toward completing and debugging a
particular release version, while another part of the team is already
done with that version and works on the next generation features.
And also in case you want to debug older versions for support reasons.
So there would be a need for somewhat more explicit version control,
but the collaborative principles would stay in my opinion.
I'm not sure whether Google is moving in this direction of online
editing. Maybe it is just what I'd want to do if I was program manager
there. What is for sure, is that it would be good for GAE platform. It
would make GAE even easier to get started. Microsoft has been
traditionally very strong with developers tools. However, it is still
a hassle to set the environment up, especially with version control.
Google might pull the rug from under Microsoft's tools by having a
much simpler interface where the use of the tools is implicit. That
would make Google the ultimate development environment (at the tool
level). With GAE, they've already taken web applications and made them
as easy to build as local applications (quite a feat, if you ask me).
I'm just thinking that online development tools are the logical next
step.
But off course, there are many other topics at least as worthy to
improve GAE as a platform.
Filip.
On 23 apr, 18:52, JoelPM <joel.me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps there are two different discussions going on here. In its
> current state GAE does not provide the functionality of SVN (or some
> other SCM), so I'd encourage the use of SVN + GAE for accomplishing
> what SimianLogic wanted:
> >I work on several different machines (and even operating systems)
> >depending on where I am, so it would be nice to be able to pull the
> >latest build down from Google instead of lugging it around on a Flash
> >drive.
> I agree that things don't have to be this way and I can see an
> argument for online development. When I read your first comment about
> Google Docs I immediately thought of Google Mashup Editor (http://
> code.google.com/gme/) - if you want proof that online development is
> possible, there you go :)
> > Off course you need to take the best parts of source code repositories. You
> > seem to be under the impression that source code repositories are
> > incompatible with a Google integration. I believe the contrary is true.
> No, not really. I just don't see any evidence that things are headed
> that way.
> > Google App Engine appears to have version control built-in natively. I don't
> > think it is fully activated yet, since you can't seem to set older versions
> > as the default version in theAdminpanel. But the presence of the "default"
> > button shows that this is precisely what they intend to do (any advise on
> > activating this feature is welcome!).
> I believe that GAE's versioning will be geared more towards allowing
> you to revert to a last known good configuration if something should
> go wrong - similar to the way Capistrano (http://capify.org/) keeps
> around old deployed versions so you can quickly revert. I could be
> wrong, but I don't necessarily see this as being an indicator that GAE
> is going to incorporate a full source control solution.
> > Obviously, the idea is that you work on the version that comes after the
> > default version, which is not live to the users but which is live for
> > development and testing. Only after things are thoroughly tested through,
> > the users are upgraded.
> > When you talk about things breaking down when more than one person works on
> > a piece of code, I'd like to offer you an analogy. Everyone knows that you
> > "can't" edit the same Word/Excel document with more than one person. "Things
> > break down pretty quickly" certainly applies. Certainly, for documents it
> > would be a good idea to put them into a source repository. And that is
> > exactly what many companies working with teams on documents do.
> > But then Google Docs did things differently (to be sure, they weren't the
> > first or only ones - but that is not relevant here). Google Docs shows that
> > you CAN work on the same piece of document (it could be the same piece of
> > source code) with multiple people, see each others changes in real time, and
> > still make sense of it all. In fact, you can build better documents faster
> > this way. I've used Google Docs for many multi-location collaboration
> > documents, and it is really great for that.
> I agree that it's possible - SubEthaEdit did that before Google Docs
> did (and I'm sure they weren't the first) - but I'm not convinced that
> it's better than using SVN and merging changes.
> > My point is that you appear to think that traditional source code
> > repositories are the only and best way to do things. I disagree.
> I don't think it's the only way; I do think it's the best way
> currently available. But, I also respect your right to disagree with
> me.
> > A different
> > way, and in my view better - but this is perhaps just my preference, would
> > be to simply have version control on everything you do. Create a new python
> > file on the server, edit it, press "test" (or "publish" or "save"). Test
> > early, often and incremental. Never do anything without source control.
> I would also like to see this happen. I've thought on-and-off about
> having my home dir stuck in SVN.
> > If
> > you open a file already being edited by someone else, you wouldn't need to
> > check out unreserved copies that you need to merge later, simply see the
> > edits of the other person as he is typing along.
> This is a different concept that version control - when you're
> simultaneously editing a file with someone else you lose, or at least
> dilute, the concept of versions.
> > Web development would
> > actually be easier than desktop development. That was hard to even consider
> > before GAE came along. Today, I can see it happen.
> I think Google Mashup Editor is a good argument for doing development
> in a web-browser.
> > The nice thing is that Google has already implemented most pieces to do
> > this. So that's my take on the ideal evolution for the GAE development
> > environment (I hope Google is reading). But you are obviously free to use
> > SVN or other tools you feel are more suited. There's more than one way to do
> > things here.
> Agreed. Like I said, think there are two different discussions going
> on here. One discussion is about the best way to manage source editing
> across multiple computers and the other discussion is about how things
> could be done differently in the future.
> Cheers,
> Joel
> > Filip.
> > On 4/22/08, JoelPM <joel.me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I agree with Mahmoud - use subversion/cvs/git/etc for managing your
> > > source. While GAE may do some version control of your deployed
> > > application, you can only rely on that if you conclude every
> > > development session with a deployable, stable code base. What happens
> > > when you want to save some changes you made on machine 1 so you can go
> > > to machine 2 but you're not in a state at which you can (or want) to
> > > deploy? What if more than one person is working on the code base? It
> > > quickly breaks down, but source code repositories meet these needs
> > > well. Also, if Google is the only place you have your source all your
> > > eggs are in one basket - that might be acceptable for email, but I'd
> > > rather have my source backed up to another location as well (and my
> > > email too, for that matter).
> > > Joel
> > > On Apr 22, 2:01 pm, Filip <filip.verhae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I agree with SimianLogic.
> > > > Collaborating on code with a distributed team would be a lot easier if
> > > > you could just open the files online and edit them, Google Docs
> > > > style.
> > > > I'd certainly love to edit my apps from anywhere.
> > > > Since you can't write to the disk from your own app, it appears this
> > > > would be hard to build ourselves.
> > > > Thanks to Ryan and Brett for the tip on storing the source code.
> > > > > @Ryan
> > > > > Missed that one. I'm not a big fan of the proposal, though it might
> > > > > work. It would essentially mean zipping your entire directory and
> > > > > placing it on there as a static file every time you update, which
> > > > > seems a bit cumbersome.
> > > > > @Mahmoud
> > > > > That's one solution, but again--seems cumbersome. You'd have to both
> > > > > check your code in to Google Apps and then check your code in to
> > > > > sourcecontrolevery time. (I'm not actually using a flash drive--I
> > > > > just uploaded it to another server of mine.)
> > > > > Both solutions require an unnecessary step IMHO--especially
> > > > > considering that Google appears to be doing some sort
> > > ofversioncontrolon their backend already.
> > > > > Honestly, I'd prefer to skip the local setup entirely--these python
> > > > > scripts are just text-files, so I don't see why we couldn't just edit
> > > > > them online. That would allow me to work on it with any connected
> > > > > computer/OS.
> Wrt diluting versions, that is true to a certain extend. It is
> certainly something to think about, especially in a context where part
> of the development team is working toward completing and debugging a
> particular release version, while another part of the team is already
> done with that version and works on the next generation features.
> And also in case you want to debug older versions for support reasons.
> So there would be a need for somewhat more explicit version control,
> but the collaborative principles would stay in my opinion.
> I'm not sure whether Google is moving in this direction of online
> editing. Maybe it is just what I'd want to do if I was program manager
> there. What is for sure, is that it would be good for GAE platform. It
> would make GAE even easier to get started. Microsoft has been
> traditionally very strong with developers tools. However, it is still
> a hassle to set the environment up, especially with version control.
> Google might pull the rug from under Microsoft's tools by having a
> much simpler interface where the use of the tools is implicit. That
> would make Google the ultimate development environment (at the tool
> level). With GAE, they've already taken web applications and made them
> as easy to build as local applications (quite a feat, if you ask me).
> I'm just thinking that online development tools are the logical next
> step.
> But off course, there are many other topics at least as worthy to
> improve GAE as a platform.
> Filip.
> On 23 apr, 18:52, JoelPM <joel.me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Filip,
> > Perhaps there are two different discussions going on here. In its
> > current state GAE does not provide the functionality of SVN (or some
> > other SCM), so I'd encourage the use of SVN + GAE for accomplishing
> > what SimianLogic wanted:
> > >I work on several different machines (and even operating systems)
> > >depending on where I am, so it would be nice to be able to pull the
> > >latest build down from Google instead of lugging it around on a Flash
> > >drive.
> > I agree that things don't have to be this way and I can see an
> > argument for online development. When I read your first comment about
> > Google Docs I immediately thought of Google Mashup Editor (http://
> > code.google.com/gme/) - if you want proof that online development is
> > possible, there you go :)
> > > Off course you need to take the best parts of source code repositories. You
> > > seem to be under the impression that source code repositories are
> > > incompatible with a Google integration. I believe the contrary is true.
> > No, not really. I just don't see any evidence that things are headed
> > that way.
> > > Google App Engine appears to have version control built-in natively. I don't
> > > think it is fully activated yet, since you can't seem to set older versions
> > > as the default version in theAdminpanel. But the presence of the "default"
> > > button shows that this is precisely what they intend to do (any advise on
> > > activating this feature is welcome!).
> > I believe that GAE's versioning will be geared more towards allowing
> > you to revert to a last known good configuration if something should
> > go wrong - similar to the way Capistrano (http://capify.org/) keeps
> > around old deployed versions so you can quickly revert. I could be
> > wrong, but I don't necessarily see this as being an indicator that GAE
> > is going to incorporate a full source control solution.
> > > Obviously, the idea is that you work on the version that comes after the
> > > default version, which is not live to the users but which is live for
> > > development and testing. Only after things are thoroughly tested through,
> > > the users are upgraded.
> > > When you talk about things breaking down when more than one person works on
> > > a piece of code, I'd like to offer you an analogy. Everyone knows that you
> > > "can't" edit the same Word/Excel document with more than one person. "Things
> > > break down pretty quickly" certainly applies. Certainly, for documents it
> > > would be a good idea to put them into a source repository. And that is
> > > exactly what many companies working with teams on documents do.
> > > But then Google Docs did things differently (to be sure, they weren't the
> > > first or only ones - but that is not relevant here). Google Docs shows that
> > > you CAN work on the same piece of document (it could be the same piece of
> > > source code) with multiple people, see each others changes in real time, and
> > > still make sense of it all. In fact, you can build better documents faster
> > > this way. I've used Google Docs for many multi-locationcollaboration
> > > documents, and it is really great for that.
> > I agree that it's possible - SubEthaEdit did that before Google Docs
> > did (and I'm sure they weren't the first) - but I'm not convinced that
> > it's better than using SVN and merging changes.
> > > My point is that you appear to think that traditional source code
> > > repositories are the only and best way to do things. I disagree.
> > I don't think it's the only way; I do think it's the best way
> > currently available. But, I also respect your right to disagree with
> > me.
> > > A different
> > > way, and in my view better - but this is perhaps just my preference, would
> > > be to simply have version control on everything you do. Create a new python
> > > file on the server, edit it, press "test" (or "publish" or "save"). Test
> > > early, often and incremental. Never do anything without source control.
> > I would also like to see this happen. I've thought on-and-off about
> > having my home dir stuck in SVN.
> > > If
> > > you open a file already being edited by someone else, you wouldn't need to
> > > check out unreserved copies that you need to merge later, simply see the
> > > edits of the other person as he is typing along.
> > This is a different concept that version control - when you're
> > simultaneously editing a file with someone else you lose, or at least
> > dilute, the concept of versions.
> > > Web development would
> > > actually be easier than desktop development. That was hard to even consider
> > > before GAE came along. Today, I can see it happen.
> > I think Google Mashup Editor is a good argument for doing development
> > in a web-browser.
> > > The nice thing is that Google has already implemented most pieces to do
> > > this. So that's my take on the ideal evolution for the GAE development
> > > environment (I hope Google is reading). But you are obviously free to use
> > > SVN or other tools you feel are more suited. There's more than one way to do
> > > things here.
> > Agreed. Like I said, think there are two different discussions going
> > on here. One discussion is about the best way to manage source editing
> > across multiple computers and the other discussion is about how things
> > could be done differently in the future.
> > Cheers,
> > Joel
> > > Filip.
> > > On 4/22/08, JoelPM <joel.me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I agree with Mahmoud - use subversion/cvs/git/etc for managing your
> > > > source. While GAE may do some version control of your deployed
> > > > application, you can only rely on that if you conclude every
> > > > development session with a deployable, stable code base. What happens
> > > > when you want to save some changes you made on machine 1 so you can go
> > > > to machine 2 but you're not in a state at which you can (or want) to
> > > > deploy? What if more than one person is working on the code base? It
> > > > quickly breaks down, but source code repositories meet these needs
> > > > well. Also, if Google is the only place you have your source all your
> > > > eggs are in one basket - that might be acceptable for email, but I'd
> > > > rather have my source backed up to another location as well (and my
> > > > email too, for that matter).
> > > > Joel
> > > > On Apr 22, 2:01 pm, Filip <filip.verhae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I agree with SimianLogic.
> > > > > Collaborating on code with a distributed team would be a lot easier if
> > > > > you could just open the files online and edit them, Google Docs
> > > > > style.
> > > > > I'd certainly love to edit my apps from anywhere.
> > > > > Since you can't write to the disk from your own app, it appears this
> > > > > would be hard to build ourselves.
> > > > > Thanks to Ryan and Brett for the tip on storing the source code.
> > > > > > @Ryan
> > > > > > Missed that one. I'm not a big fan of the proposal, though it might
> > > > > > work. It would essentially mean zipping your entire directory and
> > > > > > placing it on there as a static file every time you update, which
> > > > > > seems a bit cumbersome.
> > > > > > @Mahmoud
> > > > > > That's one solution, but again--seems cumbersome. You'd have to both
> > > > > > check your code in to Google Apps and then check your code in to
> > > > > > sourcecontrolevery time. (I'm not actually using a flash drive--I
> > > > > > just uploaded it to another server of mine.)
> > > > > > Both solutions require an unnecessary step IMHO--especially
> > > > > > considering that Google appears to be doing some sort
> > > > ofversioncontrolon their backend already.
