danielo_google: Hi everyone, welcome to our fourth official IRC chat
session. We have a few Googlers here tonight: marzia_google, dan_google, and
myself.
[7:01pm] nor3: fantastic
[7:01pm] danielo_google: This is sort of designed ot be free-form Q&A. So go
wild.
[7:01pm] woid: Hello
[7:01pm] marzia_google: re: SearchableModel in many languages - we would
like to support more robust searching in general
[7:01pm] amichail: Could you extend request deadline to one minute?
[7:02pm] marzia_google: which would include additional languages
[7:02pm] gutworth: speaking of which, are there plans to provide py3k
support?
[7:02pm] xp_prg: nor3 here it is:
http://biobench.appspot.com/json/BioBricks.json.gz
[7:02pm] nor3: question - is polling the only way to achieve comet
functionality? should i bother doing cometish stuff on app engine?
[7:02pm] ironfroggy_: Speaking of "multiple languages", im really curious
how app engine is going to help us keep a coherent community and set of
recipes, tools, and libraries when we have more than one language available.
I'd really love to see support for app-internal services, particularly when
running the dev server.
[7:03pm] marzia_google: re: Request deadline, instead of extending the
deadline per se, we plan on supporting offline processing so that you can
retrieve/analayze more data than you would be able to in 10 secs
[7:03pm] danielo_google: gutworth: Not at the moment, last I checked,
If/when we do support py3k, it would likely be in a new major version.
[7:03pm] jlivni: Hi there.  Thanks for hosting this.  I am curious what the
memcache quota is -- is it based on #of items, # of hits, just # of sets ..
etc ?
[7:03pm] gutworth: fair enough
[7:04pm] xp_prg left the chat room. ("This computer has gone to sleep")
[7:04pm] Leeds: marzia_google: so something to replace running a cron job
elsewhere which does an http ping to fire an event?
[7:04pm] p0windah: using the google auth signin page: what are the plans for
improving the usability of this page, in particular allowing a 3rd party
image/screenshot to help brand the experience?
[7:04pm] warreninaustinte: offline processing will open up some great
possibilities - looking forward to working with it
[7:05pm] ozgurcemsen: i'm eagerly waiting on offline processing too. that's
indeed great to hear
[7:05pm] amichail: I have a problem with urlfetch sometimes requiring more
than 10 seconds.  It would be helpful if the deadline were extended to a
minute.
[7:05pm] marzia_google: well there is certainly need for both cron jobs and
other types of offline processing
[7:05pm] marzia_google: both of which are of interest
[7:05pm] danielo_google: jlivni: Limits on memcache are currently
size-based, if that's what you mean. The specific limit may change in the
future.
[7:05pm] ironfroggy_: im more interested in "other types of offline
processing" than anything cron-like
[7:06pm] ironfroggy_: because its more vague and has more possibilities.
[7:06pm] _tmatsuo: marzia: good to hear that. How about Japanese language?
Will SearchableModel support Japanese?
[7:06pm] jlivni: danielo_google: Thanks for the response.  A followup:  Do
you mean total size in memcache?  Because the docs imply when you 'run out
of space' it will simply delete older items (based on first_created, as I
understand it)
[7:06pm] dan_google: gutworth: Guido has said that if we were to support
Py3k, it'd be treated as a separate language entirely.
[7:07pm] ironfroggy_: jlivni: that is just basic memcached behavior.
[7:07pm] danielo_google: jlivni: Yup, that's the case. The limit is fairly
high, compared to the other size limits we have in place.
[7:07pm] p0windah: jlivni, theres good information on how data is retired on
the memcached website
[7:07pm] gutworth: well, how about 2.6?
[7:07pm] nor3: could communicating between appengine apps be made cheaper
than communicating with other http services?
[7:08pm] marzia_google: re:Japanese, certainly at some point that is
something we'd like to support
[7:08pm] ironfroggy_: OK, so my number one appengine request: I want it
easier signin when im already logged into my google account, especially when
its from a hard-to-type device like my G1
[7:08pm] jlivni: danielo_google: ok - so there must be some other memcached
limit then, regarding # of times you can hit it.  After some number of hits
of [unknown] type, memcache returns only Null for any get/set request
[7:08pm] ironfroggy_: with that, appengine would be my best choice for
developing mobile apps
[7:08pm] jlivni: I'm curious what 'some number' and [unknown] should be
replaced with
[7:08pm] Leeds: ironfroggy_: be serious... why would you expect google stuff
to work well on the G1?
[7:08pm] dan_google: gutworth: I don't know of any plans to move up to 2.6
in the python runtime.  We might consider it if we do a 3.0 runtime, to give
people a transition path.  But again, no known plans.
[7:08pm] e-Jah joined the chat room.
[7:08pm] e-Jah: hi
[7:09pm] ironfroggy_: Leeds: i didnt say anything about expectations, only
what i wanted in reality.
[7:09pm] Leeds: ironfroggy_: 'twas a joke
[7:10pm] Wooble: I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed that filtering on
a UserProperty fails horribly if you're searching for a User object with an
email address containing a hyphen.
[7:10pm] h_tuttle joined the chat room.
[7:10pm] nor3: is it worth doing comet-powered services on appengine?
[7:11pm] p0windah: nor3, with the timeouts, I imagine not
[7:11pm] ozgurcemsen: i'm not sure, if there are any posts on the Google
Groups; Is AppEngine  still lacking the mechanism to backup the data in the
datastore?  Aral Balkan had an application for that, however didn't follow
up with the latest on that front either
[7:11pm] dan_google: Wooble: eek.  File a bug.
[7:11pm] dan_google: nor3: I'd say no, not at this time.
[7:12pm] dan_google: ozgurcemsen: There's no official bulk download tool
yet, but with key queries, it's easy to write one.
[7:12pm] danielo_google: jlivni: I'd have to look into what quota you're
hitting in that case.
[7:12pm] danielo_google: It's likely not the size quota in that case.
[7:12pm] nor3: dan_google: what would have to change? cheaper http requests?
[7:12pm] ozgurcemsen: dan : it's easy to write one, however, it all boils
down to processor thresholds
[7:13pm] jlivni: danielo_google: yes, almost certainly not the size quota.
The dashboard just says you're over some quota, but doesn't specify.  Nor do
the logs.  Is there a way I am missing to find out exactly what the quota is
(I know it is some kind of memcache quota, presumably based on get/set
requests)
[7:13pm] jlivni: or another way to phrase:  What are the memcache quotas
that are in place by default that are not total size related?
[7:14pm] dan_google: nor3: Both the 10 second request timer and the fact
that the response is only sent once the request handler exits are
intentional aspects of the current design.  Anything supporting persistent
connections, even short-lived ones, would need different infrastructure.
[7:14pm] dan_google: nor3: It's not impossible, but it's not a minor change.
[7:14pm] danielo_google: What's your app ID jlivni? I can dig around for an
answer after this session.
[7:14pm] danielo_google: Or an example app ID.
[7:15pm] jlivni: danielo_google: thanks - in this case the memcache quota
has already been raised -- perhaps that will help find it.  i will pm you
the id now (not quite released api we're building)
[7:15pm] danielo_google: Awesome, thanks.
[7:15pm] _tmatsuo: marzia: The main difficulty in supporting Japanese in
SearchableModel is to divide sentences into each word. We normally use
C-extension for that purpose, But GAE won't allow C-extension.
[7:15pm] ironfroggy_: I am wondering about the internal datastore stuff, as
I've looked into it a bit and I see that part of any key is the appid and
that i can try to make requests for entities in other apps, but i get
permissions errors. is that going to be supported at some point?
[7:15pm] jlivni: thanks
[7:15pm] ironfroggy_: Perhaps with handlers defined in the other app to
decide if im allowed that access?
[7:16pm] amichail: Could you please extend the deadline to a minute so we
can handle expensive requests to other services (e.g., twitter search)?
[7:16pm] pranny|Sleeping is now known as pranny.
[7:16pm] woid: is it possible to get more than 10 apps for my google
account? (before you roll out paid programs)
[7:16pm] ozgurcemsen: amichail:  I'm not with Google and i would love to see
a longer deadline threshold, but 1 minute is a loooong time !
[7:16pm] danielo_google: ironfroggy_: It may be worth turning into a feature
request. The current state of keys is a consequence of how we're treating
entries in BigTable.
[7:16pm] p0windah: _tmatsuo, similar programs for traditional/simplified
chinese
[7:17pm] danielo_google: i.e. app IDs as additional prefixes before
user-specified keys.
[7:17pm] ironfroggy_: danielo_google: i expected something like that, but i
thought it would be an interesting thing to have. one could develop an app
as a service for other developers.
[7:17pm] p0windah: amichail, maybe twittier ought to get their act together
[7:17pm] ironfroggy_: is the dashboard running in an environment like the
appengine itself? on appengine itself?
[7:18pm] p0windah: so any of you google guys care to comment on customised
sign-in page?
[7:18pm] marzia_google: the admin console runs on app engine
[7:18pm] dsymonds joined the chat room.
[7:18pm] _tmatsuo: powindah: yep. CJK(Chinese, Japanese, Korean) languages
have the same difficulties.
[7:18pm] ironfroggy_: and it has access to other apps data, which is why i
bring it up.
[7:18pm] p0windah: same multibyte issues sadly
[7:18pm] r0ver joined the chat room.
[7:19pm] marzia_google: given access to data between apps is interesting,
but as you can imagine security is a huge priority
[7:19pm] marzia_google: so
[7:19pm] marzia_google: it's not something to look for in the short term
[7:20pm] nor3: that kind of gets at the question i asked
[7:21pm] SDr left the chat room. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by
peer))
[7:21pm] dan_google: ironfroggy_: Yes, the Admin Console is an App Engine
app.
[7:21pm] ozgurcemsen: where is the AppEngine team located?
[7:21pm] SDr joined the chat room.
[7:21pm] nor3: could communication between apps on app engine be made
cheaper than http requests?
[7:21pm] danielo_google: ironfroggy_: Yep, there are quite a few interesting
use cases for it. Some other feature requests also overlap, regarding APIs
between apps.
[7:22pm] ironfroggy_: maybe requests within appengine could be cheaper? aws
often works that way for internal network usage.
[7:22pm] p0windah: nor3, interesting idea, but I wonder how many people
would exploit such a feature to avoid maxing out their quotas
[7:22pm] ironfroggy_: if there were direct support for http services between
apps i wouldnt even want to share data.
[7:22pm] dan_google: p0windah: We don't have anything to announce with
regards to customizable sign-in screens.  It's a great idea, though, and
there's an issue filed for it that you can track.
[7:22pm] ironfroggy_: p0windah: if you use your quota you use it. i dont
think we have a limit of app numbers, just a total quota across all our
apps.
[7:23pm] warreninaustinte: ironfroggy:  isn't there already support for http
services between apps?  Just write the handler in one app and the requestor
in the other
[7:23pm] dan_google: ironfroggy_: Currently quotas are per-app, and each
account gets a limited number of apps.
[7:23pm] amichail: Why not have quotas for all 10 apps, rather than on a per
app basis?
[7:23pm] p0windah: ironfroggy_, i see, I didnt assume the sharing would be
limited to the same account
[7:24pm] p0windah: amichail, it provides a sensible and granular way of
track each apps performance?
[7:24pm] p0windah: not to mention invoicing
[7:24pm] nor3: warreninaustinte: that still uses urlfetch quota
[7:24pm] danielo_google: amichail:  The same developers don't necessarily
correspond to the same apps.
[7:24pm] _tmatsuo: marzia: is there any posibility that GAE will allow
MeCab(C library for Morphological Analysis) or something like that?
[7:25pm] dan_google: Also, I wouldn't want the popularity of one of my apps
to impede access to another app.
[7:25pm] dsymonds: _tmatsuo: that sounds like a pretty specialised library
[7:25pm] danielo_google: If we only allowed one developer per app, it would
be simplified, But that isn't likely to happen at this point.
[7:26pm] marzia_google: i'm really not sure how various languages searches
would be supported in the future, but really the best way to make sure such
things get considered is to make sure they are entered in the issue tracker
[7:26pm] amichail: It would be nice to have a database quota that is ten
times larger for your main app...
[7:26pm] warreninaustinte: nor3: okay, now i understand the concern
[7:27pm] danielo_google: amichail: That may be solved when billing launches
then.
[7:27pm] woid: amichail: would be nice to manage total purchased quota and
split/allocate it to your apps
[7:28pm] _tmatsuo: marzia: got it
[7:29pm] woid: quite technical: can you explain "a bug in App Engine's app
caching logic" mentioned in this article?
http://code.google.com/appengine/articles/django10_zipimport.html
[7:30pm] warreninaustinte: danielo_google: yes, that may be solved when
billing launches - any new information on the timeframe for billing to
launch?
[7:30pm] MBoffin_ joined the chat room.
[7:30pm] woid: I have strange problems with imports and modifying sys.path,
sometimes it works, sometimes it throws strange errors and I need to
reimport libs
[7:30pm] danielo_google: warreninaustinte: Nothing apart from what's on our
roadmap.
[7:30pm] dsymonds: warreninaustinte:
http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/roadmap.html
[7:30pm] ozgurcemsen: I'd like to get some input on  XML Sitemaps ? Say, I
have a zillion pages in my site! . No filesystem access, I cannot have the
sitemap.xml file. I cannot generate it on the file, because it's either
gonna take too much time, or I'll hit the 1000 record limit... Any ideas?
(*offline processing would be awesome for this, at the least to be able to
store it cache).
[7:30pm] marzia_google: the sys.path is reset for each request
[7:31pm] marzia_google: that is the issue
[7:31pm] gutworth left the chat room.
[7:31pm] ozgurcemsen: * i meant ... "i cannot generate it on the fly"
[7:31pm] danielo_google: ozgurcemsen:  Store it to the datastore, and
reference it by key?
[7:33pm] nor3: are there plans to extend the image manipulation api?
[7:33pm] ozgurcemsen: danielo : i'll give that a shot sometime. thanks.
[7:33pm] woid: are you guys planning some logging of database operations
during request? i'd like to know because of firepython
[7:34pm] woid: would be nice to have something like logging QGL queries and
their results
[7:34pm] erus` left the chat room. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by
peer))
[7:34pm] marzia_google: @woid, you could log this information yourself
[7:34pm] danielo_google: woid: It's possible to do that already by extending
db.Model
[7:34pm] r0ver: probably this question was answered already, but wich is
going to be new runtime language to be supported ?
[7:35pm] woid: danielo_google: ok, I just wanted to know, if there are no
such official plans to not reinventing the wheel
[7:36pm] woid: by the way, current screenshot of firepython:
http://public.hildebrand.cz/firepython-0.3.png
[7:37pm] dan_google: r0ver: We haven't announced the next language yet.
[7:37pm] dan_google: woid: yay for firepython!
[7:37pm] • woid wants it to be ruby
[7:38pm] nor3: will http requests always be equally expensive? is there
anything about the infulstructure that could make fetch from google servers
cheaper?
[7:39pm] amichail: Are you worried that GAE (and more generally cloud
computing) will hurt Linux?  I will stop using Linux after my web server
expires.
[7:39pm] pranny: I have been working on a module that can abstract
dataModels and UI. All you need to do is to pass the model(s), exclusion
list and it will generate a AJAX UI which can search/create new/modify
existing/delete entities from the set. I have a proof of concept (almost)
ready on my dev server.
[7:39pm] nor3: the roadmap mentions "# Service for storing and serving large
files"  - how much larger will the maximum capacity be?
[7:39pm] dsymonds: amichail: What OS do you think the GAE servers are
running on?
[7:40pm] amichail: dsymonds:  That's not the point though.
[7:40pm] nor3: will this 'Service for storing and serving large files'
effectively be g-disk? google data storage?
[7:40pm] uhs left the chat room. ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12")
[7:40pm] p0windah: amichail, I imagine google being such large users of
linux, it can only be a good thing
[7:40pm] dan_google: nor3: re: both HTTP request billing and large file
support, we don't have anything to announce beyond the roadmap at this
point.
[7:40pm] warreninaustinte: pranny: sounds interesting. care to share your
proof of concept?
[7:41pm] p0windah: pranny, nice
[7:41pm] pranny: warreninaustinte.. sure, I will be finishing it and sharing
on google code
[7:41pm] nor3: if you were us, what kind of questions owuld you be asking,
uh, yourselves, right now?
[7:41pm] amichail: p0windah:  The number of Linux servers might go up, but
the number of people who know anything about Linux will go down.
[7:41pm] p0windah: amichail, that doesnt even make any sense
[7:42pm] dan_google: amichail: I'm not worried.  AE may reduce the need for
some web developers to learn coding for the operating system, but that's not
the only use for Linux, and it won't displace it entirely.
[7:42pm] woid: doing or not doing something  because it possibly hurts or
doesn't hurt some technology is ridiculous to me
[7:42pm] woid: do something because it makes difference
[7:43pm] p0windah: so, is there anything of note you googlers *can* tell us
that isnt in the roadmap ? that may be of interest to us
[7:43pm] warreninaustinte: questions about terms: if i am looking to hire a
developer with GAE experience, is it appropriate to put a job posting in the
Google group?  i read the terms of service and it wasnt clear to me
[7:43pm] woid: i'm still looking for some ORM libraries on top of GAE, or
python general
[7:43pm] woid: any pointers?
[7:43pm] r0ver: a non technical one. What's the target of google app engine
?, besides of developers, is it oriented to let small business provide
services locally on it ?, or big corporations ?, web2.0 shops ?
[7:43pm] marzia_google: @warreninaustinte for now it seems like this is ok
[7:44pm] dan_google: Mature, efficient development environments are those
that let the developer work at a level of abstraction appropriate to their
task.  I'm not convinced the OS layer is always the best level for web
development.
[7:45pm] marzia_google: @p0windah in terms of what features may be coming
out soon, the roadmap is really the most authoritative source
[7:45pm] p0windah: rgr
[7:46pm] woid: warreninaustinte: would be great to have some job board for
GAE ... thinking about opening some, but have not much time. maybe for
christmas
[7:46pm] dan_google: p0windah: Anything you'd like to know about features
that have already launched?
[7:46pm] marzia_google: @r0ver any web application that needs to be able to
scale easily and quickly is what app engine is designed for
[7:47pm] _3DStudio left the chat room.
[7:47pm] amichail: Could you provide an easy way to delete an entire
database?
[7:47pm] woid: I NEED a button in admin section to delete all apps but
default one, it is anoying to delete them manually when debugging something
reproducible only on production site
[7:47pm] p0windah: while I have so many fresh faces here, if anyone wants to
stress test my app, I'd appreciate it  just PM me your email
[7:48pm] woid: s/all apps/all versions of app/
[7:48pm] danielo_google: amichail: Iterating over entities is the fastest
way. Was thinking that might be easier now that we support __key__ in
queries, but realized that it shouldn't have a significant impact when
deleting.
[7:49pm] MBoffin left the chat room. (Remote closed the connection)
[7:49pm] marzia_google: this is a great time to stress again the importance
of entering and starring features in the issue tracker
[7:49pm] marzia_google:
http://code.google.com/p/googleappengine/issues/list
[7:50pm] marzia_google: this is really our best way to gauge the community
interest in any given feature
[7:51pm] dsymonds: and please don't post "+1" comments to those issues!
[7:51pm] woid: all people entering +1 to issues should be immediately
rickroll'd, no exceptions
[7:52pm] amichail: Do you plan to use a newer version of django soon?  I
encountered an obscure unicode problem with the current version and gave up
on using it.
[7:53pm] danielo_google: A new version of django would be in a new major
version, if released.
[7:54pm] emanuel joined the chat room.
[7:54pm] dan_google: I recommend to everyone planning to use Django to
follow the instructions in the articles on bundling Django 1.0.2 with the
app.  I commented on this in the Group, but basically you want to be in
charge of your own dependencies as much as possible.
[7:55pm] danielo_google: Agreed. We're also never going to be able to
release new versions in perfect sync with Django's own updates.
[7:55pm] dan_google: Django is included with AE mostly to make it easier to
get started.  Once you've got a real app, you should bundle your own
version.
[7:56pm] ozgurcemsen: dan : this is a pretty bold statement.
[7:57pm] dan_google:
[7:57pm] pranny: is there any way we (non googlers) can edit existing/submit
new articles? I am not very satisfied with your AJAX article... somethings
need to be done in the post method para
[7:57pm] marzia_google: you can absolutely submit new articles
[7:57pm] marzia_google: we would love it
[7:57pm] marzia_google: just email me
[7:57pm] danielo_google: And if an article contains glaring errors, it may
be worth adding them to the issue tracker.
[7:57pm] dan_google: we also welcome updates and bug fixes!
[7:57pm] pranny: sure, that will be great. Thanks
[7:58pm] danielo_google: "Glaring" sounds bad there, but things like
misspellings or factual inaccuracies.
[7:58pm] p0windah: amichail, I use django 1.1 btw
[7:58pm] woid: would be nice to have app engine skeleton app generator in
style of rails (something like http://rubigen.rubyforge.org/) or
http://gaeutilsuit.appspot.com/ (but I don't like it is web based and not on
github)
[8:00pm] ozgurcemsen: dan : is there an article or tutorial on AppEngine doc
site about how to bundle your own Django (or alikes) ?
[8:00pm] dan_google: woid: agreed!  We could use Google Code to host project
templates.
[8:01pm] dan_google: ozgurcemsen: Yup:
[8:01pm] dan_google:
http://code.google.com/appengine/articles/appengine_helper_for_django...

[8:01pm] dan_google:
http://code.google.com/appengine/articles/django10_zipimport.html
[8:01pm] ozgurcemsen: thanks much.
[8:01pm] dan_google: I use Helper + Django 1.0.2 via zipimport for most of
my projects.
[8:02pm] Wooble: does using zipimport cause quota problems?  presumably it
uses more CPU than normal importing.
[8:02pm] dan_google: Wooble: It only uses more CPU on first load on an
instance.
[8:02pm] dan_google: Wooble: After that, imported modules are cached in
non-zip form.
[8:03pm] woid: I'm playing with GAE from september, I've expected stronger
community gain, many PHP guys from freehostings. Do you have some
explanations? Maybe entering the platforms is not so easy as advertised
[8:03pm] muthu_ joined the chat room.
[8:03pm] woid: that is my personal opinion and I'm quite worried about the
community ...
[8:04pm] dan_google: As an alternative to the Django AE Helper, there's also
app-engine-patch.  I haven't used it myself, but it's got a great feature
list, and enthusiastic developers.  Worth checking out:
http://code.google.com/p/app-engine-patch/
[8:04pm] Wooble: From the starred issues, it seems to me that there are lots
of PHP people who aren't willing to give python a chance.
[8:05pm] Wooble: I suspect most of them never even looked at it, or took 1
look at the syntax and gave up.
[8:06pm] woid: for example when entering and learning python I had big
problem to debug my code under OSX, ended with PDB in terminal which is
quite oldskool and far from productive
[8:06pm] woid: all big editors needed me to wrap dev_appserver.py call to
their debugging-enabling wrapper
[8:06pm] ozgurcemsen: Wooble: I'm a night time PHP person, with MiaCMS
project. And I love Py.  Once you go Py, you don't go back
[8:07pm] woid: wrappers
[8:07pm] danielo_google: To be fair, a lot of those PHP users are often
interested in running existing libraries, many of which don't have python
parallels.
[8:07pm] warreninaustinte: Python is a better language than PHP.  it doesnt
have as many libraries (yet) but it is a more elegant language
[8:07pm] danielo_google: The same is true for most languages: People are
less interested in languages than frameworks.
[8:07pm] Wooble: I'm a Perl hacker myself; I miss CPAN but I'll live.
[8:08pm] dan_google: woid: Check out Eclipse and PyDev.  We've got a video
and an article on it to start, and it's possible (but not mentioned in the
video) to run the dev_appserver inside PyDev's visual debugger.
[8:08pm] p0windah: woid, I am using it to build a commercial app, its good
stuff
[8:08pm] ozgurcemsen: ok. "Once you go Py, you don't go back"  this was
bold. I still go all over the prog langs, but so far Python the one I liked
the most.  *wished Android allowed python apps developed on them.
[8:09pm] dan_google: Thanks all, I gotta catch a bus.  See you next time!
[8:09pm] dan_google left the chat room.
[8:09pm] danielo_google: Yep, our chat officially ended nine minutes ago, I
now realize.
[8:09pm] Wooble: thanks for working late, guys.
[8:09pm] marzia_google: yeah it's time to call this chat time officially
over