Outsourcing issue flares up at Stanford chip conference
ziliath
David Fabian
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/08/24/HNoutsourcingissue_1.html
Excerpt:
"I think outsourcing is good for Americans, it creates jobs in America,"
said T. J. Rodgers, founder, president and chief executive officer of
Cypress Semiconductor Corp.
He is either a liar or a complete idiot, who would give away his money,
while thinking he is getting richer.
David Fabian
Right. And breathing causes suffocation, drinking water makes you thirsty,
sitting on a hot stove gives you frostbite, ... I guess he needs a boot up his
ass so he can take a good shit.
7
You have to spend money to make money and each amount
spent has to be efficiently spent, which in times gone
by would have meant investing in USA, but not any more.
Its no different to printing monopoly money and handing it
to these wingers. It ain't gonna bring those jobs back.
Times are changing and you change with it or fuck off die.
This vicious anti-social campaign against outsourcing
must stop and everyone affected restructure - not keep
asking for handouts after handouts and a protected
market - thats just commies in disguise policy
- because that money comes from tax payers
and tax payers can expect value for money in how
it is spent. If it is squandered through the activities
of a vocal minority, it will damage businesses, government
and the general tax payer because all around them the
products these over paid developers are going to be producing
funded from this gravy train
will make the companies and organisations they work for
highly inefficient and uncompetitive compared to the
rest of the world and unable to compete in the real world.
All companies would like to charge more because they
can earn more, if they don't outsource,
but the reality is that any product
they develop will not be competitive in the global
market, and they will not be able to adapt to the
changes that are coming on time, and they as good as
dead when they have to face real competition in the
global market.
Steel, clothing, cars, etc were all once made in USA, but
the bulk of that is made elsewhere because the dick heads
didn't spend the money to restructure and make themselves
able to compete.
Before replying, remember, flat screens costing
US$20,000 and made in USA is available
if any dickhead wants to buy because there are
laws to protect America's consumers from
those nasty $199 LCD makers from supplying the same thing.
Zalek Bloom
I think he is right - replacing American workers by cheap foreign
workers (called outsourcing) is excellent for America - for
rich America. Replacing American $80k/year engineer by $5k Indian engineer
saves corporation $75k/year - which means bigger bonuses for corporate
management. And not only big management gains - they can spend more
money on lobbying the Senate and Congress - that means our politicians
gain too.
And the truth is that American voters overwhelmingly support this trend
- about 80% of them will be voting for Bush/Kerry team - both support
replacing American workers by cheap foreigners.
Zalek
ajv2003
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/08/24/HNoutsourcingissue_1.html
It's time to label those people who are so cavalier to ship jobs
overseas for the benefit of a stockholders and to the detriment of the
general populations who in the final analyses pays for the
infrastructure of this country as traitors?
It’s good to bare in mind that Corporations contribution to the tax base
directly is less than 5,000 million a month in comparison to the
individual tax payer who pays 60,000 million a month plus a further
55,000 million toward his/her social security and retirement. When will
we stop giving the Corporations voices so much weight on their *paltry*
contribution to the wellbeing of our society?
ajv2003
> David Fabian wrote:
>
>
>>"David Fabian" <david.m...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>news:CoPXc.13922$bY6....@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...
>>
>>>"ziliath" <zil...@myway.com> wrote in message
>>>news:6b963d7f.04082...@posting.google.com...
>>>
>>>>http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/08/24/HNoutsourcingissue_1.html
>>>
>>>Excerpt:
>>>
>>> "I think outsourcing is good for Americans, it creates jobs in
>>> America," said T. J. Rodgers, founder, president and chief executive
>>> officer of Cypress Semiconductor Corp.
>>>
>>>He is either a liar or a complete idiot, who would give away his money,
>>>while thinking he is getting richer.
>>
>>Right. And breathing causes suffocation, drinking water makes you
>>thirsty, sitting on a hot stove gives you frostbite, ... I guess he needs
>>a boot up his ass so he can take a good shit.
>
>
> You have to spend money to make money and each amount
> spent has to be efficiently spent, which in times gone
> by would have meant investing in USA, but not any more.
Aha, thus all them State Governments in this Union are waisting Tax
dollars trying to attract factories, R&D facilities? They should be
investing the money in China, India, Polen, Russia?
>
> Its no different to printing monopoly money and handing it
> to these wingers. It ain't gonna bring those jobs back.
Maybe you can hire some of these displaced workers as a body guard to
protect your efficiently spend dollars after you buy the goods bought
from outside this country, better yet get some visa for body guards from
overseas the'll be cheaper as they won't have to pay the going rate in
taxes and they will be happy to live in the old chicken coup on your
property.
>
> Times are changing and you change with it or fuck off die.
Many will die but you might not enjoy living here.
>
> This vicious anti-social campaign against outsourcing
> must stop and everyone affected restructure - not keep
> asking for handouts after handouts and a protected
> market
Right you are we should sell out everything. Bigger tax breaks to the
rich so they can more efficiently spend the dollar and let the working
classes pay-off the huge 7,000,000 Million deficit. Great advice!
- thats just commies in disguise policy
We were all surprised when the USSR fell and we found how well the party
favorites were living.
> - because that money comes from tax payers
> and tax payers can expect value for money in how
> it is spent.
You may keep in mind who is the major tax payer. It is not the 1% of the
folks who own 72 % of the whealth in this nation.
If it is squandered through the activities
> of a vocal minority, it will damage businesses,
Hey, businesses are abandoning this nation for greener pastures.
government
> and the general tax payer because all around them the
> products these over paid developers are going to be producing
> funded from this gravy train
You have to be a CEO, upper management, whealthy or a politician to be
on this gravy train
> will make the companies and organisations they work for
> highly inefficient and uncompetitive compared to the
> rest of the world and unable to compete in the real world.
Funny, Europe is doing well without the mass dislocation of jobs, but
than those governments know who votes there,
>
> All companies would like to charge more because they
> can earn more, if they don't outsource,
> but the reality is that any product
> they develop will not be competitive in the global
> market, and they will not be able to adapt to the
> changes that are coming on time, and they as good as
> dead when they have to face real competition in the
> global market.
Really. Chea, just finished economy 101?
>
> Steel, clothing, cars, etc were all once made in USA, but
> the bulk of that is made elsewhere because the dick heads
> didn't spend the money to restructure and make themselves
> able to compete.
Yup, I'm driving my last made in the US automobile and truck. the next
one's are going to be from Japanese companies who also compete globaly
but do not devestate the workers in their econmies. a bit of principle
is in order.
>
> Before replying, remember, flat screens costing
> US$20,000 and made in USA is available
> if any dickhead wants to buy because there are
> laws to protect America's consumers from
> those nasty $199 LCD makers from supplying the same thing.
>
Yup there are suckers born every minute. Probably was a Military purchase.
Richard Hutnik
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/08/24/HNoutsourcingissue_1.html
The outsourcing advocate says that outsourcing produces jobs. Which
jobs are they saying it produces?
- Richard Hutnik
q...@q.com
But Ron Hira, an assistant professor of public policy at Rochester
Institute of Technology and member of the IEEE Career and Workforce
Policy Committee, took issue with those statistics. There have only been
self-interested, industry-sponsored studies that don't tell much, he said.
"How much work has actually moved offshore? No one knows, because nobody
has collected data on it. I think this is a major failing of government
policy," Hira said. The Department of Commerce is doing a study, but it
is unlikely to bring up new information because it is underfunded, he said.
Despite his criticism of the research, Hira said it is clear that
offshore outsourcing is accelerating. "It is a really bad deal for
workers," he said.
Carl Everett, a partner at Silicon Valley venture capital firm Accel
Partners, argued that outsourcing offers an opportunity companies should
take advantage of. By using offshore capabilities, they can bring a
product to market faster and at a lower cost, which will increase
profitability and ultimately generate jobs, he said.
Natasha Humphries has a different perspective. Humphries was laid off
last year from PalmOne Inc. after having trained workers in Bangalore,
India, to do her job as a software quality assurance engineer.
"Increased profit margins will create new jobs, but they may not be in
the U.S. and they may not pay as well," she said.
Humphries also noted wage depression as an effect of offshore
outsourcing. Salaries of between $75,000 and $125,000 a year for
individuals with her skills are no longer the norm. "My skills are still
marketable, yet I can't market them at the same price," she said.
Some audience members appeared anxious about the prospect of losing
their jobs to outsourcing. They chimed in with calls to panel members to
pressure the U.S. government to take action against outsourcing.
Questions were also asked about how to motivate students to study
engineering when the job perspective is grim.
Rodgers of Cypress Semiconductor said taking a protectionist stance
would ultimately cost more jobs than it would save because of a backlash
by trade partners. "We will be a big loser and there will be a lot more
people on the streets if you start attacking outsourcing," he said.
And when it comes to students, Cypress Semiconductor is hiring. "Our
plan is to hire about 2,000 engineers over the next five years," Rodgers
said. However, there is a caveat. "We will go wherever we need to go to
find those engineers."
U.S. companies should create jobs in new areas such as biotechnology,
nanotechnology and fuel cell technology, said Vinod Dham, cofounder of
NewPath Ventures LLC, which invests in companies that do most of their
work overseas. "Where is the next event that will create a boom in the
market for jobs?" he asked.
Meanwhile, the California bill banning outsourcing for government
agencies is expected to pass the state assembly, according to local news
reports. The bill will then land on the desk of Governor Arnold
Schwarzenneger, who has yet to take a position on it.
ziliath wrote:
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/08/24/HNoutsourcingissue_1.html
>
Tom Wilson
Since the open source model has done wonders to blunt bullshit coming
from the software industry, perhaps it could somehow be applied to
corporate management?
Maybe some kid could get a SourceForge account and come up with, I don't
know, KorporateSpeak.
I't be easy. Just a shell script that printed "Bullshit! All you're
creating are low tech service sector jobs and destroying the middle
class. The very class you are marketing to. You are slitting your own
throats but are too stupid and greed-blinded to see it."
--
Tom Wilson
A Riverside, California, health ordinance states that two persons may
not kiss each other without first wiping their lips with carbolized
rosewater.
leslie
:
: Aha, thus all them State Governments in this Union are waisting Tax
: investing the money in China, India, Polen, Russia?
State governments are spending money offshoring their work...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W25224ED8
Your Tax Dollars At Work...Offshore:
How Foreign Outsourcing Firms Are Capturing State Government Contracts
The original link, wrapped to 2 lines:
http://www.washtech.org/wt/report/TaxDollarsAtWork/
offshoring_finaltext_pdf.pdf
Your Tax Dollars At Work...Offshore:
How Foreign Outsourcing Firms Are Capturing State Government Contracts
--Jerry Leslie
Note: les...@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email
ajv2003
Lobbyist for the outsourcing campaign?
ajv2003
I knew that, but "mister get with it" did not. Good posts
Peter Hayes
> Excerpt from the article:
<snip 35 (thirty-five) lines>
Believe it or not, I can click on the OP's link as well as the next
person. Why repost it?
You posted so much, there's probably a copyright violation in there.
I didn't spot any original material from yourself either.
> ziliath wrote:
>
> > http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/08/24/HNoutsourcingissue_1.html
> >
--
Peter
Peter Hayes
> Richard Hutnik wrote:
> > zil...@myway.com (ziliath) wrote in message
> > news:<6b963d7f.04082...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> >>http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/08/24/HNoutsourcingissue_1.html
> >
> >
> > The outsourcing advocate says that outsourcing produces jobs. Which
> > jobs are they saying it produces?
> >
> > - Richard Hutnik
>
> Since the open source model has done wonders to blunt bullshit coming
> from the software industry, perhaps it could somehow be applied to
> corporate management?
>
> Maybe some kid could get a SourceForge account and come up with, I don't
> know, KorporateSpeak.
>
> I't be easy. Just a shell script that printed "Bullshit! All you're
> creating are low tech service sector jobs and destroying the middle
> class. The very class you are marketing to. You are slitting your own
> throats but are too stupid and greed-blinded to see it."
The individuals doing it don't care - they're salting away cash for
their cushy retirement. It'll be someone else's problem.
--
Peter
ziliath
> You have to spend money to make money and each amount
> spent has to be efficiently spent, which in times gone
> by would have meant investing in USA, but not any more.
If Americans have no jobs and no money to spend,
how will the economy stay afloat? Answer: it won't,
the since the US is widely perceived as being the
engine of the world economy, the world economy
will also take a dive.
> Times are changing and you change with it
How do you suggest? Move to India? Win the lottery?
> This vicious anti-social campaign against outsourcing
> must stop and everyone affected restructure
This quasi-religious idea that new success will come
if we just believe in it enough is very ignorant. The rich
are screwing the poor and the middle-class in America,
and there is no solution but regime change.
ziliath
> And the truth is that American voters overwhelmingly support this trend
> - about 80% of them will be voting for Bush/Kerry team - both support
> replacing American workers by cheap foreigners.
No, this next election will hinge entirely on gay marriage.
That's the real issue!
But seriously, I've never heard so many Americans publicly (not on Usenet)
complain about a president before. If the voting machines aren't
rigged (if...) then Kerry will win.
You can be quite certain that the polls are rigged though...
The conservatives are hoping for a lemming effect.
That reminds me, in more serious democracies they make it illegal
to print poll information in the days before an election.
ziliath
> Since the open source model has done wonders to blunt bullshit coming
> from the software industry, perhaps it could somehow be applied to
> corporate management?
I think it would be more effective to have capitalism recognized
as a religion and demand separation of church and state.
Tom Wilson
No. Nothing wrong with capitalism. What's needed is to force these
executives to have all their goods and services supported by Indian call
centers. That'd teach 'em. Let them get all their precious reports done
in "Engrish". Let them cope for a week in the trenches with these people
and see how damned ineffective and expensive this offshoring nonsense is
in the long run.
--
Tom Wilson
"I love to eat them Smurfies
Smurfies what I love to eat
Bite they ugly heads off,
Nibble on they bluish feet."
Stefan Monnier
> to market faster and at a lower cost, which will increase profitability and
> ultimately generate jobs, he said.
By "ultimately" in such articles, you have to read "when hell freezes over".
Always the same crap: "get money now, and promise social improvement for
later".
Stefan
Tim Jowers
Did the CEO of Cypress at least get booed? Or thrown to the curb?
Zalek, you are not kidding! I read all over johnkerry.com and the only
positive thing I can come up with is that they promise to STOP TAX
BREAKS for companies that move work overseas! Wow, what kinda BS
politicians are running this country that they have given tax breaks
to ENCOURAGE shutting down plants in the USA? Kerry has an outstanding
letter requesting his position on OFFSHORING and VISA ABUSES but hsa
taken no position (He and Edwards DID vote to raise H1B to 800k we all
know.) Well, I tried to track this issue with my Congressional
candidates too since Congress levies the taxes. Hollings is retiring
and not one other candidate will speak out for American jobs so far!!!
Hell, one of my senators, Joe Wilson, is the Co-Chair of the India
Caucus!!!! Talk about some bullshit. 1 in 7 people in South Carolina
live in poverty and we have a senator working to send jobs to India.
My theory is that large groups react slowly but forcefully; so, in a
few years what we think now will be accepted widely. A few weeks ago I
emailed a request to an SC tech group to lobby the SC Employment
Security Commission and eventually the Department of Labor so all H1
and L1 jobs be listed on public well-known job sites so Americans can
apply and do you know what? Three people emailed me saying they don't
support my political views!!! One person emailed that her tech company
had been all but wiped out by cheap foreign labor.
What is happening is that the US Government wants to drive inflation
through immigration but in turn they are driving poverty (fact) as
Americans are replaced by immigrants who themselves are barely earning
enough to escape poverty and certainly not enough to raise a family
and thrive.
You have to be a masochist to vote for Bush but Kerry has been in
Congress 20 years so how much better is he? We cannot campaign for him
as he will not state a position on VISA ABUSES and has only stated the
weakest position on OFFSHORING.
My observation,
TimJowers
ziliath
> ziliath wrote:
> > Tom Wilson <twi...@notinyourlife.com> wrote in message news:<lDUXc.48204
> >
> >
> >>Since the open source model has done wonders to blunt bullshit coming
> >>from the software industry, perhaps it could somehow be applied to
> >>corporate management?
> >
> >
> > I think it would be more effective to have capitalism recognized
> > as a religion and demand separation of church and state.
>
> No. Nothing wrong with capitalism.
Really? Strange idea. What makes you say that?
zalek...@hotmail.com
Jim,
We (working Americans) are being screwed - and the sad reason is that
majority of working Americans are not very smart - politicain and rich
people are much smarter then us.
I talk to a few friends on my (working Americans) - tried to convience
to vote, but not for Kerry of Bush - without any success. Their logic
- Kerry is better then Bush, so any voter for Nader (or other dude) is
vote for Bush. My logic is - voting for Kerry gives to Democrats the
correct impression that voters approve Democrats policy of replacing
American workers by cheap foreigners, so voting for Nader (even it
means 4 more years of Bush) will teach Democrats to change this
policy. The smartest argument of my friend (I hope Suzan you are
reading this post) - Democrats are too stupid to learn anything, but
she will vote Democrats, because Republicans are even more stupid.
So guys, chear up!!! As colege graduates start working in McDonalds
and Walmart - the services will be better and hamburgers taster and we
will tell proud stories to our granchildren:
"when I was your dad age I worked as engineer, not like your dad
delivering pizza".
Zalek
Some ideas how to slowdown outsourcing:
http://www.geocities.com/saveusajobs/outsourcing_laws.htm
q...@q.com
the man who knew too much
you need to read this. it is the real reason why the u.s economy is going
down the toilet & why it would be better just not to vote at all.
http://educate-yourself.org/nwo/
http://www.pushhamburger.com/
--
It's a shame Linux has such difficulty running some of the more popular
Windows applications: Nimda, CodeRed, Klez, WPA, Swen, SoBig, ILOVEYOU,
MyDoom, Witty, Netsky, sober, Mimail, Dumaru......
Windows was created to keep idiots away from Unix.
threeseas
there is NOT an outsourcing problem.
if you do your research and follow the money you will find it was
wrongful, world level, stock market manipulation that caused such events
as the dot com boom and bust as well as events leading up to 9/11... and
even the war on iraq.
meaning, if there is a real outsourcing problem then the US would simple
make up a bunch of lies against any country getting such outsourcing and
then go and kick their ass.
do a search on google for "Trillion dollar bet" and find and read teh
transcript. ---- then ask yourself what really caused world com and
enron bust?
Money doesn't appear and disappear out of thin air and money of the
amount around a trillion is hideable by how?
this idea some seem to have about abusing labor in other countries in
order for the US to be top economic ....bla bla bla... is crap.
Outsourcing is really doing nothing more than contributing to balancing
economic fairness in the world.
if you have a problem with that, then its clear what kind of person you
really are.
michael douglas
>
> > "ziliath" <zil...@myway.com> wrote in message news:6b963d7f.04082...@posting.google.com...
> >> http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/08/24/HNoutsourcingissue_1.html
> >
> > Excerpt:
> >
> > "I think outsourcing is good for Americans, it creates jobs in America,"
> > said T. J. Rodgers, founder, president and chief executive officer of
> > Cypress Semiconductor Corp.
> >
> > He is either a liar or a complete idiot, who would give away his money,
> > while thinking he is getting richer.
>
> I think he is right - replacing American workers by cheap foreign
> workers (called outsourcing) is excellent for America - for
> rich America. Replacing American $80k/year engineer by $5k Indian engineer
> saves corporation $75k/year -
Check out management salary rise or for that matter the oft-fabled ceo
compensation rise(the farters only quote stock options(not the
exercise date) in
calculationg compensation)
And this MEANS a $99 DVD player, BTW most indian engineers are in the
$12k-20k
range...and eastern europeans including poles are CHEAPER than indians
in salary $7k average...
ajv2003
Tim Jowers
Tax and Withholding
USA worker: $50k
China worker: $2.5K
India worker: $3K
Jobs gone. Pay rates gone. Tax revenues gone.
Tax and spend government fails. Smart US citizens see the writing on the wall.
TimJowers
JEDIDIAH
On 2004-09-07, Tim Jowers <timj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ajv2003 <alb...@verbrugh.net> wrote in message news:<10jkvg6...@corp.supernews.com>...
>> threeseas wrote:
>>
>> > ziliath wrote:
>> >
>> >> 7 <website_...@www.ecu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>> > Money doesn't appear and disappear out of thin air and money of the
>> > amount around a trillion is hideable by how?
>> >
>> > this idea some seem to have about abusing labor in other countries in
>> > order for the US to be top economic ....bla bla bla... is crap.
>> >
>> > Outsourcing is really doing nothing more than contributing to
>> > balancing economic fairness in the world.
Nope. An Indian company cleaning Microsoft's clock with Indian
labor would be balance and econonmic fairness. As things are now they just
have foreign interests exploiting their resources for (limited) foreign gain.
>> >
>> > if you have a problem with that, then its clear what kind of person
>> > you really are.
>>
>> Oh, t'is so nice to make your home in Disneyland.
>>
>> --
>
> Tax and Withholding
>
> USA worker: $50k
> China worker: $2.5K
> India worker: $3K
>
> Jobs gone. Pay rates gone. Tax revenues gone.
This is made all the worse when you consider that the current state
of the tax code will tend to place bigger burdens on that USA worker and his
$50K. (versus a proprietor with a similar net income)
Soaking the middle class and then decimating the middle class is not
really a bright idea.
>
> Tax and spend government fails. Smart US citizens see the writing on the wall.
--
vi isn't easy to use. |||
/ | \
vi is easy to REPLACE.
Kamal R. Prasad
Not exactly. It is about getting the best return for money spent on
services. The folks who come to the US on H1B or work in MNCs may not
necessarily the ones most in need of work. Its more about reducing
production costs and less about poverty alleviation. If CEOs &
shareholders could not care less for their own fellow citizens -there
is no reason why they would give a damn about citizens of another
country.
> > > if you have a problem with that, then its clear what kind of person
> > > you really are.
> >
> > Oh, t'is so nice to make your home in Disneyland.
> >
> > --
>
> Tax and Withholding
>
> USA worker: $50k
At 30-35% tax rate, you need an income of $150,000 p.a to pay income
tax totalling $50,000. Why on earth are you complaining with that kind
of salary?
> China worker: $2.5K
> India worker: $3K
>
Tax is levied as a percentage of income. And it turns out that even if
we wearn 1/5th US incomes -we pay the same tax rate as in US (approx
30-35%).
regards
-kamal
Kamal R. Prasad
> > timj...@yahoo.com (Tim Jowers) wrote in message news:<b1b4167f.04090...@posting.google.com>...
> > > ajv2003 <alb...@verbrugh.net> wrote in message news:<10jkvg6...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > threeseas wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ziliath wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > if you have a problem with that, then its clear what kind of person
> > > > > you really are.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, t'is so nice to make your home in Disneyland.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > >
> > > Tax and Withholding
> > >
> > > USA worker: $50k
> >
> > At 30-35% tax rate, you need an income of $150,000 p.a to pay income
> > tax totalling $50,000. Why on earth are you complaining with that kind
> > of salary?
> >
> > > China worker: $2.5K
> > > India worker: $3K
> > >
> > Tax is levied as a percentage of income. And it turns out that even if
> > we wearn 1/5th US incomes -we pay the same tax rate as in US (approx
> > 30-35%).
>
> AMOUNT is meaningFUL. Rate has less usefulness. The Amount is what a
> company calculates into its decision to Offshore.
>
> Say you make $10k. Then you pay $5k tax. You take home $5k.
> Now say I make $50k. And I pay $30k tax. Now I take home $20k.
>
> The tax and witholding load is about 60% but that's probably quite
> conservative. A business will surely go to you since you cost 1/5th.
> Of course, with $5k house property tax and $1k car property tax then I
> really have $14k to spend. With the cost of goods and services being
> much higher in the USA, probably living in India gives a better
> quality of life.
Yes - a business will find it better to send work to a country with
the same rate of taxation but lower absolute amounts of taxes paid. I
was trying to convey that there is no unfair trade practice by the
Ind. govt. If tax rates remain the same and salaries rise -taxes will
also rise. BTW -yes quality of life is better for a sw engr in India.
To enjoy life in the USA -you need to be rich.
> The USA is caught in a trap - either cut spending and taxes or cut
> job loss and pay decreases. So far, the US people are being squeezed
> in this trap. What they are doing is foregoing health insurance (1.4M
> more this year) etc. This is why the dem.s are pushing for government
> funded health insurance. The health insurance companies see the
> writing on the wall. Increased poverty amongst Americans spells a
> slowing economy. Records profits with absolutely no jobs recovery and
> a steady fall in income for those employed may mean corporate profits
> have topped.
They have a lobby to help them out -and the fact that anyone alive
needs medical treatment at some pt means continuous demand.
> BTW, I estimate the cost of a worker in India to be twice that of
> the international lowest rate. India has a great headstart but may
> soon find itself in the same situation as America. People in Nigeria
> can answer the phone even cheaper! At some point, the savings have to
With our cost of living and relative political stability (meaning an
ability to think in terms of retirement savings unlike war-torn
countries), we can only hang onto jobs higher up the value chain [like
sw development].
> be passed on through lower product prices and lower taxes. In the case
> of Autos and Housing, these have doubled relative to salaries in the
> last 50 years in the USA. Offshoring brings profits but not better
> product costs. Innovation has not improved the quality of life of the
> average person as much as it could.
>
Offshoring increases disparity of income. Companies don't have to
share their wealth with their fellow citizens. If your govt came up
with policies to make american workers competitive -then it will
affect the bottomline of the rich but also increase employment among
americans. But the way things are going, work that is trivial won't be
done in the USA -and work that is challenging may not come to
americans because they don't necessarily represent the best manpower
on earth.
regards
-kamal
> Thanks Kamal,
> TimJowers
Richard Hutnik
> "ziliath" <zil...@myway.com> wrote in message news:6b963d7f.04082...@posting.google.com...
> > http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/08/24/HNoutsourcingissue_1.html
>
> Excerpt:
>
> "I think outsourcing is good for Americans, it creates jobs in America,"
> said T. J. Rodgers, founder, president and chief executive officer of
> Cypress Semiconductor Corp.
>
> He is either a liar or a complete idiot, who would give away his money,
> while thinking he is getting richer.
Not a liar, and there is some truth it in. Short of a whole new niche
in high tech being developed, these are examples of the types of jobs
that get created:
1. Walmart workers, to stock shelves and help customers, buy Chinese
made products, because that is what people can only afford due to
declining wages.
2. Maids, butlers and cooks for the uberrich.
3. McDonalds manufacturing jobs.
4. Multilingual American project managers to take the blame for
offshore IT workers screwing up projects.
5. Salespeople to go to businesses to have them outsource their IT
departments to IT companies that offshore IT work.
6. Instructors to teach people from foreign countries to speak
Americanese (American version of English) correctly to facility the
offshoring of helpdesk phone calls.
7. Lawyers specializing in foreign intellectual property theft, so
they can help legally go after foreign nationals who steal code.
8. Government project managers who can help offshore development and
tech people meet demands of U.S law when they have government money
outsourced.
See, there is a plentitude of new jobs that will be created by
offshorting. I gave 8 examples. By the way you techies thank you for
laying down the roads/pipeline/fiber to facilitate your jobs going
overseas.
- Richard Hutnik
ajv2003
The USA is caught in a trap - either cut spending and taxes or cut job loss and pay decreases. So far, the US people are being squeezed in this trap. What they are doing is foregoing health insurance (1.4M more this year) etc. This is why the dem.s are pushing for government funded health insurance. The health insurance companies see the writing on the wall. Increased poverty amongst Americans spells a slowing economy. Records profits with absolutely no jobs recovery and a steady fall in income for those employed may mean corporate profits have topped.They have a lobby to help them out -and the fact that anyone alive needs medical treatment at some pt means continuous demand.BTW, I estimate the cost of a worker in India to be twice that of the international lowest rate. India has a great headstart but may soon find itself in the same situation as America. People in Nigeria can answer the phone even cheaper! At some point, the savings have to
threeseas
> Tom Wilson <twi...@notinyourlife.com> wrote in message news:<JL3Yc.51328$0o5....@bignews1.bellsouth.net>...
>
>>ziliath wrote:
>>
>>>Tom Wilson <twi...@notinyourlife.com> wrote in message news:<lDUXc.48204
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Since the open source model has done wonders to blunt bullshit coming
>>>
>>>>from the software industry, perhaps it could somehow be applied to
>>>
>>>>corporate management?
>>>
>>>
>>>I think it would be more effective to have capitalism recognized
>>>as a religion and demand separation of church and state.
>>
>>No. Nothing wrong with capitalism.
>
>
> Really? Strange idea. What makes you say that?
Economic systems are based on some theory(s) as to how they are to work,
but in real life those theories don't hold up and the result is that we
get a system not pure in its application of the theory it is based upon.
ie. capitalism in the US has elements of socialism in it, such as social
security, food stamps, etc..
There are also some bad outcomes, especially when theories are applied
in a manner of convience (only when it benefits the applier). We see
this in the doings of MS all the time... teh applying of war like
tactics in business, where breaking the law, getting caught and being
fines is considered a part of teh "cost of doing business" resulting in
little or no incentive to not continue such criminality.
Capitalism provides good incentive to compete fairly, so long as it is
kept fair, otherwise it becomes nasty and the purpose of the theory is
neutralized..... benefit to the consumers/buyers gets converted to
anti-trust issues....
Many recognize capitalism as teh best system so far, but we can do
better and as the scope of econimics worldwide improves the value of
capitalism (in application, not theory) can become reduced.
At what point does our advancement of technology enable us all to have
more free time or time to enjoy life, rather than working at some job to
make a living?
In otherwords, this foundation idea that we must have jobs 40+ hours a
week is for the benefits of who? Who and/or what are you working for?
Is this what we are born/grown for?
On the subject of outsourcing..... perhaps its time to start looking at
other things that can take away or reduce your personal work load.
Like MS Software Factories.... you know, so you can make MS/Bill Gate
more money...
Or get to the point, we are all in this together and disneyland
(correction) Disneyworld is not a bad place to live, where the odds are
far less that you will die of some war machine.
whos building it for who?
for the people by the people.... GPL...