Does VM support the maildir format? If not, what are people using to read maildir in Emacs? I think Gnus supports it,, but I'm not quite ready to abandon ship unless absolutely necessary.
My ISP is transitioning to qmail using maildir To work around this, I have my incoming mail run through procmail which delivers all my mail to one of ~10 mbox-style files in a mail-spool directory.
Unfortunately, my ISP has not yet mounted the common emacs lock directory on their POP server, so I cannot have procmail create emacs-compatible lock files to ensure atomic operation between procmail and VM w.r.t. the spool files. I'm working on them to get the lock directory installed on the server.
2 questions: Does VM support maildir? Is there a better way to address this file locking issue? It seems to me that I need to either use maildir, or get procmail back to using emacs-compatible lock files for the mail spool files. Failing this, I run some risk of losing email should VM be pulling mail out of my spool files while procmail is trying to deliever a new message. Correct?
Todd <t...@io.com> writes: > Does VM support the maildir format?
No. The last time I asked about it here and by e-mail to Kyle I received no response. I don't know if it's a sore spot with Kyle, or if I just caught him at a bad time. I looked at the vm code to try to get a handle on what would be required to support maildirs. All of the mailbox operations in vm assume that a mailbox is a file. Some rework/trickery would be required to handle maildirs efficiently.
Maildir is a *very* nice mailbox format, and it's now supported by two major MTA's: qmail and postfix. Maildir support in vm would be a big win. People are leaving vm for mutt just to get maildir support. I won't go that far, but I will say that I use mutt at home, and it's pretty nice.
> If not, what are people using to > read maildir in Emacs?
I think mew supports maildir. Don't know much about it, though.
> My ISP is transitioning to qmail using maildir To work around this, I > have my incoming mail run through procmail which delivers all my mail > to one of ~10 mbox-style files in a mail-spool directory.
You don't need procmail to either deliver to mbox-format mailboxes or direct list mail to separate mailboxes. Just resubscribe to lists using extension addresses like tdh-list-...@io.com and create a ~/.qmail-list-foo containing:
./Mail/spool/foo
Then point vm-spool-files to "~/Mail/spool/foo" etc.
> Unfortunately, my ISP has not yet mounted the common emacs lock > directory on their POP server, so I cannot have procmail create > emacs-compatible lock files to ensure atomic operation between > procmail and VM w.r.t. the spool files. I'm working on them to get > the lock directory installed on the server.
I'm not sure how vm reads spool files, but I've never seen any locking problems. If it uses movemail, isn't that atomic?
-- Dave Sill <MaxFree...@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <URL:http://web.infoave.net/~dsill> Lockheed Martin Energy Research Oak Ridge National Lab Workstation Support "Life with qmail", everything you always wanted to know: <URL:http://lwq.w3.to>
Dave Sill <MaxFree...@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> writes: > Maildir is a *very* nice mailbox format, and it's now supported by two > major MTA's: qmail and postfix. Maildir support in vm would be a big > win. People are leaving vm for mutt just to get maildir support. I > won't go that far, but I will say that I use mutt at home, and it's > pretty nice.
Dave, you do know that it's not the MTA that supports maildir, it's the LDA (local delivery agent). Tell Sendmail to use an LDA that uses maildir and it will support maildir too.
> I'm not sure how vm reads spool files, but I've never seen any > locking problems. If it uses movemail, isn't that atomic?
VM uses movemail, POP, or IMAP to nab your spool. If nobody gets around to writing maildir support for movemail, then I'd suggest pointing VM at a POP or IMAP server that understands maildir if you want to read mail stored in a maildir spool.
-- Steve VanDevender "I ride the big iron" http://jcomm.uoregon.edu/~stevev ste...@efn.org PGP key fingerprint=929FB79734DF8CC0 210DA447510FF93B "bash awk grep perl sed df du, du-du du-du, vi troff su fsck rm * halt LART LART LART!" -- the Swedish BOFH
> VM uses movemail, POP, or IMAP to nab your spool. If nobody gets > around to writing maildir support for movemail, then I'd suggest > pointing VM at a POP or IMAP server that understands maildir if > you want to read mail stored in a maildir spool.
That's basically my position. maildir is way to spool messages and VM has not, to date, concerned itself with that. maildir as a folder format has been discussed here, at least obliquely. The same comments about MH-style folders apply to it, I think.
Steve VanDevender <ste...@efn.org> writes: > Dave, you do know that it's not the MTA that supports maildir, > it's the LDA (local delivery agent). Tell Sendmail to use an LDA > that uses maildir and it will support maildir too.
Yes, of course. Some MTA's, like qmail and postfix, are also MDA's, though.
> VM uses movemail, POP, or IMAP to nab your spool. If nobody gets > around to writing maildir support for movemail, then I'd suggest > pointing VM at a POP or IMAP server that understands maildir if > you want to read mail stored in a maildir spool.
Oh spare me. I'm not going to pop/imap my mail off the local system just so I can simultaneously use maildirs and vm. That's like running an apache server so you can read HTML docs. I'll either use a browser that can read from a file or I'll stick to plain text docs.
-- Dave Sill <MaxFree...@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <URL:http://web.infoave.net/~dsill> Lockheed Martin Energy Research Oak Ridge National Lab Workstation Support "Life with qmail", everything you always wanted to know: <URL:http://lwq.w3.to>
kyle_jo...@wonderworks.com (Kyle Jones) writes: > That's basically my position. maildir is way to spool messages
You're entitled to your position, but I think you're wrong. Maildir is a mailbox format, not a spool format. It happens to be a mailbox format that can be delivered to without locking or the cooperation of MUA's, but it's still a mailbox format.
> and VM has not, to date, concerned itself with that.
Hello? How can an MUA *not* concern itself with spool formats? Does VM not support the mbox "spool format" (multiple messages in a single file separated by "^From " lines)?
> maildir as > a folder format has been discussed here, at least obliquely. The > same comments about MH-style folders apply to it, I think.
Maybe I missed that discussion. What's the bottom line? If it's "use POP or IMAP", I think that's a cop out.
-- Dave Sill <MaxFree...@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <URL:http://web.infoave.net/~dsill> Lockheed Martin Energy Research Oak Ridge National Lab Workstation Support "Life with qmail", everything you always wanted to know: <URL:http://lwq.w3.to>
> > That's basically my position. maildir is way to spool messages
> You're entitled to your position, but I think you're wrong. Maildir is > a mailbox format, not a spool format. It happens to be a mailbox > format that can be delivered to without locking or the cooperation of > MUA's, but it's still a mailbox format.
I think you missed the subtleties of the terms here. Kyle implied exactly the same thing as you did, though without mentioning any advantages or disadvantages, i.e. that mailder is a way to asynchronously deliver messages! ;-)
> > and VM has not, to date, concerned itself with that.
> Hello? How can an MUA *not* concern itself with spool formats? Does VM > not support the mbox "spool format" (multiple messages in a single > file separated by "^From " lines)?
Again I think you've misunderstood. To paraphrase Kyle, and hopefully not put words in his mouth: VM has not, to date, been concerned with the issues of spooling messages. VM relies on "movemail" to gather messages from spool files and put them into its own local "folders" (which happen to be kept in the Unix "mailbox" format).
> > maildir as > > a folder format has been discussed here, at least obliquely. The > > same comments about MH-style folders apply to it, I think.
> Maybe I missed that discussion. What's the bottom line? If it's "use > POP or IMAP", I think that's a cop out.
One does not use POP (or to some extent IMAP, though things get fuzzy here) on "folders". Folders are the mechanism used by the MTA to archive messages. Traditionally folder formats have been "proprietery" with the Unix "mailbox" format being the most commonly used format also used for MTA folders on Unix systems. (IMAP is really a client/server MTA protocol for manipulating folders on a central server -- it's not just a mailbox access protocol though it can be used for that and certainly most IMAP MTAs also usually offer ways to manipulate folders on the local workstation too.)
MH-style folders have become increasingly popular and are supported by a wider number of MTAs. If I recall the issues of having VM deal with MH-style folders, it would basically require a complete re-design and re-implementation of VM to fully support them with the same user inferface.
As Kyle says, if nobody (including yourself) wants to modify movemail to pick up mail from a maildir-format spool then the easiest alternative would be to point a maildir-capable POP (or IMAP) server at your spool and use that (in conjunction with the already supported POP and IMAP capabilities of movemail) to access your maildir spool with VM.
Something in the back of my mind is suggesting to me that there might already be a simple movemail-like tool for maildir spools though....
-- Greg A. Woods
+1 416 218-0098 VE3TCP <gwo...@acm.org> <robohack!woods> Planix, Inc. <wo...@planix.com>; Secrets of the Weird <wo...@weird.com>
> I think you missed the subtleties of the terms here. Kyle implied > exactly the same thing as you did, though without mentioning any > advantages or disadvantages, i.e. that mailder is a way to > asynchronously deliver messages! ;-)
Kyle calls maildirs a spool format. I call them a folder format. MUA's exist, mutt and mew to name two, that support maildir *folders*. VM doesn't. As a *folder* format, maildirs have several advantages over mbox folders:
o no silly ">From" quoting required o messages can be manipulated using standard UNIX tools like mv, grep, rm, etc. o messages can be added to folders without locking, and without interfering with MUA's
Hacking movemail to convert a maildir into an mbox folder undoes all of these advantages.
> MH-style folders have become increasingly popular and are supported by a > wider number of MTAs. If I recall the issues of having VM deal with > MH-style folders, it would basically require a complete re-design and > re-implementation of VM to fully support them with the same user > inferface.
If that's Kyle's answer, I can handle that. I'm certainly not demanding maildir support. But as a long-time VM user and supporter, I'd like a straight answer, or at least *some* answer, to questions about why VM doesn't support maildirs and what it would take to add such support.
> Something in the back of my mind is suggesting to me that there might > already be a simple movemail-like tool for maildir spools though....
maildir2mbox, but, as I said above, it defeats the advantages of maildir.
-- Dave Sill <MaxFree...@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> <URL:http://web.infoave.net/~dsill> Lockheed Martin Energy Research Oak Ridge National Lab Workstation Support "Life with qmail", everything you always wanted to know: <URL:http://lwq.w3.to>
[ On , July 21, 1999 at 12:36:27 (-0400), Dave Sill wrote: ]
> Subject: Re: VM and maildir? file locking? procmail? suggestions?
> o messages can be added to folders without locking, and without > interfering with MUA's
That last point has only to do with delivery, i.e. with *spools*.
VM, correctly and rightly so in my opinion, makes a very solid and unbending distinction between mail "spools" and mail "folders". The former are shared between the local delivery agent and the mail reader. The latter are the sole domain of the mail reader.
Indeed maildirs can be used as both spools and folders simultaneously.
However in the "folders" sense they are extremly similar to MH folders and while they do share the same generic advantages of the MH format, those particular advantages have no meaning whatsoever within the context of anyone who uses VM as their primary mail reader.
If VM ever does get the ability to integrate fully with IMAP (i.e. the full ability to manipulate messages kept in folders on the server via IMAP), then I'll probably point my VM at my own private IMAP server (probably the Cyrus implementation, which just so happens keeps its folders in a similar format of one message per file too, but still shares none of the advantages of MH folders though because they are the sole domain of the IMAP server).
While it might be cool to be able to run MH and VM on the same local folders, I don't see it ever happening, and for me it probably wouldn't really matter anyway.
-- Greg A. Woods
+1 416 218-0098 VE3TCP <gwo...@acm.org> <robohack!woods> Planix, Inc. <wo...@planix.com>; Secrets of the Weird <wo...@weird.com>
> > MH-style folders have become increasingly popular and are supported by a > > wider number of MTAs. If I recall the issues of having VM deal with > > MH-style folders, it would basically require a complete re-design and > > re-implementation of VM to fully support them with the same user > > inferface. > > If that's Kyle's answer, I can handle that. I'm certainly not > demanding maildir support. But as a long-time VM user and supporter, > I'd like a straight answer, or at least *some* answer, to questions > about why VM doesn't support maildirs and what it would take to add > such support.
The main reason is that no one seemed to want them, and it would be some trouble to implement. The people who want a directory that contains thousands of files seem to have abandoned monolithic mailers like VM a long time ago.
Maildir certain wins on updates. But as is typical of systems that are write friendly, it loses on reads. It also loses on searches unless you have a very good index. VM, being a mail reader, does much more reading and searching than writing, so I think optimizing for reads is a better choice.
Frankly, I'm not in love with any of the existing folder formats. I really don't want to think about folders anymore. I just want to save messages and let a search engine find them based on criteria.
