Hi Members,

This question pertains to emacs and other GNU tools as well as other
tools (i.e GTK+) that compliment and work well with GNU products. I am
a long time computer user and I am learning "C" programming. I have
done extensive research on what IDE to utilize for my learning but I
also believe in  the philosophy behind GNU and would like to be more
involved and prefer to learn their tools.

I would like a recommendation please as to what "separate" GNU tools
to install (also perhaps including GTK+ and Glade) that integrate well
with each other and would allow me the same type tools that are
typically supplied with a complete IDE such as Code::Blocks, Code Lite
etc. for a win32 platform.

In other words, what separate tools do I need to install that will
allow me to build both console and window applications (on a win32
platform) using "C" and eventually "C++" that offer the same or
similar options as those found in your typical IDE's such as
Code::Blocks, Code Lite, lcc-32 and Pelles C?

This is a difficult question for a newbie to locate as I find myself
getting buried in complicated installation procedures for tools I may
not need. Getting over an installation hurdle is certainly a learning
experience but some install instructions can be quite intimidating and
would kindly like to know if I am on the right path.

On the flip side, installing "Code::Blocks", "lcc-win32", "Code Lite"
and "Pelles C" are all pretty much a one click install. However, the
GNU mailing lists are a tremendous support arm and support is critical
to a newbie.

So far I have learned that the following combination of tools for
windows win32 platform x32 (i.e.win2k, winXP and win7) could be a
start but perhaps some are not needed.

Text Editor: emacs
GUI Builder: GTK+2 or Glade
Compiler: MinGW
Debugger: ?
Linker: ?
Standard "C" Library: ?

I also located the links below for GNU tools for windows (not sure if
I need any of these).
http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages.html
http://www.gnutoolchains.com/

I am loading my first Linux distro soon and prefer to be involved with
a family of tools that are available for both Linux and Windows. I
also use "Windows" daily (win2k, winXP and win7).

My question above pertains to learning "C" programming and installing
GNU tools as well as GTK+ on a 32 bit win32 platform. Any suggestions
or links would
be much appreciated.

Thank you very much
Wally Lepore New Jersey

GDB, of course, available for download from the MinGW site.  Nothing
else will debug GCC-generated programs as efficiently as GDB does.
Emacs includes a front end for it, as I'm sure you know.

GNU Binutils, from MinGW.  You have no other choices if your compiler
is GCC.

Windows comes with one already, so you don't need anything.  MinGW
runtime and headers come with a small set of additional functions that
are missing or grossly misfeatured in the MS-provided standard library
that is part of Windows.

Be sure to download also these important tools:

 ID-Utils
 Findutils
 Make
 Grep

and learn about etags and ebrowse that come with Emacs (if you didn't
know about them already).

These are old and unmaintained.  Some of them are even badly broken.
I recommend to look on the MinGW site first, and then here:

    http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/

Thank you Eli. Yes this sure looks like the real deal for sure. Thank
you very much. However I will most certainly have further questions
after this initial reply please and would like to know if this is the
proper mailing list to continue on with this thread/question?

If not, can you please direct me to the proper mailing list? I
certainly don't prefer to drag you thru all questions involved in the
install process as I will most certainly do my homework first before
asking.

I assume this is the home page for MinGW -> http://mingw.org/
Is GDB part of the download for MinGW?
I found the separate download for GDB here ->
http://www.gnu.org/software/gdb/download/

Also, getting back to MinGW please. I found this interesting link
http://mingw.org/wiki/New_to_MinGW
and it appears they are suggesting I download and install additional files.
Part of the page said:

-- begin --

Download and extract

Because there are many things to use (compiler, linker, utils, API,
etc.) you need to download several files:
- gcc   the compiler
- mingwrt       the Mingw Runtime system
- w32api        the Windows Application Programming Interface
- binutils      linker, profiling, windows resources, etc.
- make  which gathers all "things to do" to achieve your program
- gdb   a great debugger to look inside your app while it is running

The complete name for each file to download includes its version.
You can also download the MinGW-xxx.exe file, and let it download the
rest, but probably it doesn't download the last version of each file.
The new mingw-get intaller will improve this situation when it becomes
available.

Files are compressed in Unix style: .tar.gz

-- end --

Ok, then I assume GNU Binutils is included in MinGW? On MinGW's web
site it said:

-- begin --

Primarily intended for use by developers working on the native
MS-Windows platform, but also available for cross-hosted use, (see
note below -- you may need to follow the "read more" link to see it),
MinGW includes:

- A port of the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC), including C, C++, ADA
and Fortran compilers;
- GNU Binutils for Windows (assembler, linker, archive manager)
- A command-line installer (mingw-get) for MinGW and MSYS deployment
on MS-Windows
- A GUI wrapper (mingw-get-inst) for the command line installer

-- end --

Ok, but it sure sounds scary having to rely on Windows C Library. I
guess I should be ok with it....... correct?

Ok, studying now. Thank you.

Yes I see lots of files. I have no idea what they are utilized for but
I will study and find out. Also Eli, I have little experience with
working in a console environment. I have been successfully working
through the learning process in regards to how-to verify downloaded
files and checksums using md5sum and md5sums programs in the command
line. No problem. I also have many DOS books from "back in the day" to
refer to which I have benn studying much lately.

Will the set-up scenario you kindly discussed above be too
overwhelming for a newbie programmer like myself or would I be better
off simply starting with installing an IDE already set-up to run on
win32 platform such as Code::Blocks, Code Lite, lcc-win32 etc.where
all procedures are accomplished in the same window?

I understand the drawback to utilizing a complete package associated
with an IDE is that a lot of the procedures and tools are
automatically executed for the user. Most times, the user has no idea
that a particular tool is actually running a process.

At least with your recommended tools (above), I would know why a
particular tool is in  my tool box and what its used for and when to
use it. I would understand the whole process better. Its just the
installation part that I would be most concerned with. If I could
survive it.

Thank you for your patience Eli
Wally

If you just started with C or programming in general, don't waste your
time searching for a featureful IDE.
Just start coding, it's better to learn a new language without learning
a new editor at the same time.
You probably, also can skip using a debugger at the beginning.

Have fun with emacs

--

The MinGW mailing list, mingw-us...@lists.sourceforge.net, is a much
better place, since your questions have little to do with Emacs.

Yes.

These are sources.  You will be much better off with precompiled
binaries.

That's the basic setup, yes.

Yes, see above: it's in the list you cited.

You'll be fine.  Everyone else is.

There's a README there to help.

MinGW comes with an installer, I suggest you use it.

I cannot tell anything about the IDE's you mention: never used them.

Thank you v.plechinger. Yes I understand. Most of the pre-bundled
IDE's I have looked at are quite simple to install (i.e. code::blocks,
lcc-win32, Pelles C and Code Lite) and easy to navigate.

However I'm simply looking to better understand what each tool
actually accomplishes in a full featured "separate tool" IDE rather
than simply allowing the pre-bundled IDE packages (i.e. Code::Blocks,
Code Lite etc.) to accomplish most tasks automatically for me.

Code::Blocks and Code Lite are certainly great products but I simply
wanted to know what the  "separate tool" route would encompass versus
the one-in-all packages.

The "separate tool" component IDE that Eli recommended is exactly what
I was searching for. Perhaps I will install the most basic of the
mentioned tools (emacs and MinGW) and then install the additional
tools as I progress.

Yes you are correct when you say, "Just start coding". Let me not
forget my goal!

Thank you for your suggestions.

Thank you. I just signed-up and will post there.

Ok, thank you. I will research and study.

Yes I did see that README earlier. Thank you. Reading it now.

Ok, thank you. I appreciate your time and help.

FWIW, emacs can be customised and set up to rival pretty much any IDE
out there.

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Brandon Betances

On the windows version of emacs?

Yeah, sure.

Just see all those Java guys.

Nor even on C/C++ Emacs is a top contender as an IDE anymore.

All of those Java guys generally do trivial software engineering type
things, so it's to be expected they'd use something like Eclipse or
Netbeans.
On Oct 4, 2012 10:22 PM, "Óscar Fuentes" <o...@wanadoo.es> wrote:

Great advice. Specially the part about the debugger. Debuggers should be
banned for beginners. They create terrible habits and foster sloppy
methods (edit-run-crash-debug-edit anyone?) that may ruin your career as
a competent programmer.

Good programmers don't expect to use a debugger when they develop their
software. If you end using one, it is higly probable that the bugs you
are trying to fix is not the worst problem with your project.

Modern IDEs have a deep understanding of the programming language and
this brings in very interesting features that are out of the reach of
the simplistic syntactical parsing that Emacs does. One of the most
evident examples is code completion. If you write

foo.

on one of those modern IDEs, the type of `foo' is often known and the
candidates for completion that the IDE offers are restrained to the data
members or methods of the class/struct that corresponds to `foo'. Those
candidate methods are shown with signature and documentation. That alone
is a huge productivity boost when you are working with a big API.

Other related facilities are code browsing & navigation, refactoring,
accurate source code filling and unobtrusive error reporting as you
write code.

Emacs has partial support for some of those features, with CEDET always
shining on the horizon, but instead of catching up with other IDEs as
time passes, it is falling behind.

Then, on integrating with the traditional tools that comes with the IDE
(debuggers, profilers, etc) Emacs still is on the 90s. The GDB interface
looks primitive, flaky, arcane and inconvenient compared to other IDEs.

Don't get me wrong. I love Emacs and don't plan to switch anytime soon,
because Emacs is a great configurable *editor*. But I'll have a hard
time justifying the use of Emacs for C# or Java projects. My C++ work
does not suffer so much because I already know the APIs well enough,
although whenever I write or browse some "advanced" C++ I have to
struggle with CCMode auto-fill and font-locking capabilities.

And, to show the whole picture, it is true that Emacs is the best IDE
for quite a few languages. Those tend to be minority (but very
interesting) languages without the backing of Big Money but with very
devoted users that invest lots of time on improving Emacs' support for
their pet language.

Óscar Fuentes <ofv <at> wanadoo.es> writes:

The Eclipse developers should be persuaded somehow to separate
the completion/refactoring stuff into a separate library. Is
there a reason why this part is tied to their GUI editor? If it
were a separate library then any editor could use it, not just
Eclipse.

On 10/4/2012 12:48 PM, Wally Lepore wrote:

gdb

come with Windows

At some point, you want to get 'make', which automates the compile/link
steps.  Any serious project needs a build program.

~~

This is heresy on an emacs list (hence the private email), but I don't
think emacs is a very good debugger.  I certainly use it for all my
editing in all languages, but not for debugging.

On Windows, I use either Eclipse or MS Visual C++.  Both have a learning
curve and some setup for each project, but then they work well.

On Linux, I use ddd (a GUI front end to gdb.)  The UI isn't as polished
as the Windows programs, but it requires zero configuration.

I believe there is a project (led by some Google engineers) to have code
completion using clang based servers for editors like Vim and Emacs.
Phoronix reported on it a while back.

--
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.

Suvayu Ali <fatkasuvayu+linux <at> gmail.com> writes:

But clang does only C/C++ and stuff, doesn't it? Eclipse has excellent
Java support and it is open source software, so it would be logical to
make the completion/refactoring engine independent of the Eclipse
GUI, so that other FOSS editors can have access to the same level of
Java support as Eclipse has.

Right. Something similar is mostly done for C# on Windows. Idebridge [1]
uses the SharpDevelop libraries for smart code completion and online
documentation. It works quite well once you patch it a bit (see the
Issues page on the project database)

1: http://code.google.com/p/idebridge/

On Oct 5, 2012, at 7:23 AM, Óscar Fuentes wrote:

The programming feature I miss most in emacs is the code browsing: jump to the definition of a method, function, class, variable, and jump back to the original position. I tried to configure CEDET to do this, but have not succeeded so far.

Before drilling into CEDET, I would like to ask whether I'm looking at the right direction. What is the recommended tool for the code browsing in emacs? It should understand the language context, but strictly speaking I do not need any other features that CEDET provides.

Thank you,
--Tima

 I've always done it in CEDET via the semantic features (semantic-fast-jump
or something... i have it binded now)....

You can also use cscopes to do this and use that via emacs.

Jai

I have always used TAGs tables created using the etags comand for
this.  Then M-. , C-x 5 . and so forth.  Then I usually M-*
pop-tag-mark or pop-global-mark or some such to return.  In the Emacs
manual this is described in the "Tags Tables" section.

Bob

On Oct 5, 2012, at 9:17 PM, Bob Proulx wrote:

Yes, I used TAGs in the past. Well documented in the emacs manual and works as expected.

I remember it could not always find the definition though. I think to get on par with what people called "IDE" the tag system has to understand the language semantics. And this, as Jai said,  is indeed what Semantic (a part of CEDET) claims to do.  I was wondering whether it is the state of the art or there is a simpler and better successor.

--Tima

At least in C and C++, tags never miss a definition for me.  My only
problem with tags is that they sometimes show me more definitions
other than what I had in mind that match the symbol I type, either
because of case insensitivity or because of partial matches.

http://eclim.org/

http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsEclim

I have not tried it.

--
Vagn Johansen