From: Luis Gutierrez <luisgutier...@peoplepc.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 08:32:16 -0400
Local: Sun, Jul 16 2006 8:32 am
Subject: Global Impacts of Religious Violence
James Annan wrote: Hello everyone, > Luis Gutierrez wrote: >>I think the interaction > No, it seems obviously relevant and potentially interesting (speaking I have been wondering how to get started. This theme will require many Current Issue (July 2006) What do you think? You may wish to take a look at other similar trend charts in the Solidarity & Sustainability Home Page Those who are not interested in religion, please keep in mind that the I would be grateful for any feedback, comments, suggestions ... Take care, Luis -- You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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From: dli...@tds.net
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 09:13:41 -0700
Local: Sat, Jul 29 2006 12:13 pm
Subject: Re: Global Impacts of Religious Violence
Luis Gutierrez wrote: Can you tell us something about how reproductive decision making is > Hello everyone, > I have been wondering how to get started. This theme will require many > Current Issue (July 2006) > What do you think? influenced by religion? Most would agree that population growth is a global change driver, and that the adoption of birth control technology has a strong influence over birth rates. What is the relative contribution of religion to the adoption and diffusion of birth control technology, relative to other socioeconomic factors, prinicpally, cost? -dl You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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From: Luis Gutierrez <luisgutier...@peoplepc.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 16:43:17 -0400
Local: Sun, Jul 30 2006 4:43 pm
Subject: Re: [Global Change: 422] Re: Global Impacts of Religious Violence
dli...@tds.net wrote: This is an excellent question. I assume that by "birth control > Can you tell us something about how reproductive decision making is > influenced by religion? Most would agree that population growth is a > global change driver, and that the adoption of birth control technology > has a strong influence over birth rates. What is the relative > contribution of religion to the adoption and diffusion of birth control > technology, relative to other socioeconomic factors, prinicpally, cost? technology" you mean the entire spectrum of artificial birth control techniques, including contraceptives, abortifacients, and abortion procedures, since they are all now supported by technology. Religion does have a critical influence on reproductive decision making, I think that the strongest influence of religion on population growth is This is a complex issue with many factors being influential. We know In the third world, the situation is reversed: most men and women are Needless to say, the population growth issue should be considered in I also propose that those religious institutions that perpetuate the These are my thoughts at the moment. I hope that this is the beginning Sincerely, PS -- Below are some links that may be of interest. For some data on the global distribution of population growth: http://members.cox.net/slsturgi3/population_growth.gif For more information and data on population issues, I recommend the http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/WPP2004/2004Highlights_... You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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From: dli...@tds.net
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 17:21:37 -0700
Local: Mon, Jul 31 2006 8:21 pm
Subject: Re: [Global Change: 422] Re: Global Impacts of Religious Violence
The Roman Catholic Church has a formal policy, and evangelical
protestants have an informal policy evidenced by political decisions made by representatives of that electoral bloc, not to mention direct action (sometimes violent) campaigns to harass and oppress practicing physicians. > I think that the strongest influence of religion on population growth is birth rates by the prevalence of what you call the "patriarchal mind set" - I believe you will find the highest birth rates among nations with a high prevalence of Islam. Not to put words in your mouth, but if your hypothesis is true, what do you prescribe as a solution: theological revolution and mass religious conversion? I would think there are more practical lessons to be learned by a When Does Religion Influence Fertility? Kevin McQuillan _Population and "The article concludes that religion plays an influential role when You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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From: Luis Gutierrez <luisgutier...@peoplepc.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 15:02:52 -0400
Local: Tues, Aug 1 2006 3:02 pm
Subject: Re: [Global Change: 431] Re: Global Impacts of Religious Violence
Even for roman catholics and evangelical protestants, this has minimal
effect on the number of abortions in the USA, let alone worldwide. >>I think that the strongest influence of religion on population growth is Please see some of the data I suggested at the end of my plot: >>via the perpetuation of the patriarchal mindset, which is based to a >>significant extent on the "male God" image. There is empirical evidence >>that this is the case. For instance, if you compare the population >>growth trends in the first and third worlds, it seems clear that the >>first world birth rates are declining (perhaps too much?) while the >>third world birth rates continue to increase. > This is why I asked the question: can you plot (or point to a plot) of > birth rates by the prevalence of what you call the "patriarchal mind > set" - I believe you will find the highest birth rates among nations > with a high prevalence of Islam. Not to put words in your mouth, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Population_growth_rate_world.PNG http://www.unep.org/GEO/geo1/fig/fig4_3.gif http://mindprod.com/images/worldpopulationgrowth.png http://www.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/~ttavk/weltkarten/population/popula... For more detailed date, see the following: Global statistics for all religions: 2001 AD Data is provided to support the following conclusions: "1. There are more new Christians added to the world population than > if your hypothesis is true, what do you prescribe as a solution: Neither .... theological revolutions are not possible, and mass > theological revolution and mass religious conversion? religious conversions are improbable ... May I reiterate what I wrote in my last post: that "the bed is the consolation of the poor," etc., etc. But the most influential factor is (I think) that both men and women in the first world are better educated in the use of birth control techniquess; both men and women participate (at least to some extent) in reproductive decision making; and a significantly higher percentage of both men and women are able to make such decisions with some degree of freedom from the rules imposed by the patriarchal mindset. In the third world, the situation is reversed: most men and women are Needless to say, the population growth issue should be considered in I also propose that those religious institutions that perpetuate the 1. More education, both religious and secular, to enable people to make 2. Heavy taxation of religious institutions that exclude women from 3. Withdrawal of subsidies to religious institutions that exclude women > I would think there are more practical lessons to be learned by a I don't have access to this journal, and would be grateful if you could > careful review of factors known to influence reproductive > decision-making and family planning. If you have access to a research > library, I would recommend starting with this recent literature review > (and the rich bibliography therein): > When Does Religion Influence Fertility? Kevin McQuillan _Population and send me a copy of the article. However, these conclusions ... > "The article concludes that religion plays an influential role when .... are very similar to mine. > three conditions are satisfied: first, the religion articulates > behavioral norms with a bearing on fertility behavior; second, the > religion holds the means to communicate these values and promote > compliance; and, third, religion forms a central component of the > social identity of its followers." McQuillan 1: "first, the religion articulates behavioral norms with a Agree, but actual fertility behavior is increasingly driven by informed McQuillan 2: "second, the religion holds the means to communicate these Agree, but communication and promotion are not sufficient because it is McQuillan 3: "third, religion forms a central component of the social Agree, but something is wrong when religion induces and/or sanctions me a copy? Luis -- You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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From: dli...@tds.net
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 05:58:10 -0700
Local: Thurs, Aug 3 2006 8:58 am
Subject: Re: [Global Change: 431] Re: Global Impacts of Religious Violence
Luis Gutierrez wrote: You are not tying your data and conclusions closely enough to be very > Global statistics for all religions: 2001 AD > Data is provided to support the following conclusions: > "1. There are more new Christians added to the world population than convincing. For example, the chart at http://www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian-encycl... shows muslim growth rate (2.13) exceeding christian growth rate (1.39), which does not support your #1 conclusion. The data show muslim population growing faster than christian because 2.13 new muslims per muslim per year is greater than 1.39 new christians per christian per year. You note that the annual addition to christian population (2.5 M per > May I reiterate what I wrote in my last post: to summarize & rephrase, as you have done below. > Perhaps I was a bit long winded. These boil down to: > 1. More education, both religious and secular, to enable people to make > 2. Heavy taxation of religious institutions that exclude women from > 3. Withdrawal of subsidies to religious institutions that exclude women hypothesis: poverty? Education seems like an appropriate response either way, but I suspect you will have difficulty passing legislation to pay for your educational program by taxing some religious institutions and not others. You might have better luck paying for sex education in public schools by taxing proportional to income, regardless of religion. > > When Does Religion Influence Fertility? Kevin McQuillan _Population and > I don't have access to this journal, and would be grateful if you could can obtain a copy via inter-library loan. Ask your local librarian. Glad to see you agree with the conclusions of a scientific literature review on religion and fertility. While I highly recommend a visit to your local library, you may find on-line access more convenient. The Population Council's web-site contains their access policy for _Population and Development Review_: "To view the full table of contents of the latest issue, order a Regards, You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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From: Luis Gutierrez <luisgutier...@peoplepc.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 00:17:54 -0400
Local: Fri, Aug 4 2006 12:17 am
Subject: Re: [Global Change: 456] Re: Global Impacts of Religious Violence
So we agree that hair splitting on numbers from various sources is not
worthwhile ... so let's focus on the big picture ... > christians? Do you have any independent evidence to test this On a scale from zero to one, where zero is perfect gender balance and > hyposthesis (how do you measure "patriarchal mind set" and does it vary > by religion as birth rates vary by religion?) one is perfect patriarchal imbalance, which of the following religions is the most patriarchal? Which is the least patriarchal? A. Bahai > You focus on religious institutions, but have you ruled out a competing As I have stated, I have not ruled out any other factors, including > hypothesis: poverty? Education seems like an appropriate response > either way, but I suspect you will have difficulty passing legislation > to pay for your educational program by taxing some religious > institutions and not others. You might have better luck paying for sex > education in public schools by taxing proportional to income, > regardless of religion. poverty ... I am simply focusing on religious violence because it is a factor that is seldom considered. > Glad to see you agree with the conclusions of a scientific literature I am very familiar with the scientific literature on religion and the > review on religion and fertility. relationship of religion to several other knowledge domains including fertility, but I don't presume I have read every article that has been written. Will try to get a copy of the McQuillan article but, while his conclusions are reasonable, they do not explicitly consider the issue of religious violence ... do they? Luis You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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From: dli...@tds.net
Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 06:16:52 -0700
Local: Sat, Aug 5 2006 9:16 am
Subject: Re: [Global Change: 456] Re: Global Impacts of Religious Violence
Luis Gutierrez wrote: I think we might agree that grounding the discussion in empirical data > So we agree that hair splitting on numbers from various sources is not > worthwhile ... so let's focus on the big picture ... would help us picture the issues and keep them in focus. I was prompted by Jame's Annan's comment that "religion is obviously Muslim 2.41 children per woman in 2001 > > [dl] (how do you measure "patriarchal mind set" and does it vary You have introduced the concept of "patriarchal mind set" into this > > by religion as birth rates vary by religion?) > On a scale from zero to one, where zero is perfect gender balance and > A. Bahai discussion as an important influence on reproductive decision making - more important than religion. Can you tell us more about this - for example, does "patriarchal mind set" vary by religion? Does it explain why people of some relgions have higher or lower birth rates than people of other religions? Have you (or anyone else) measured it, or measured its relation to birth rates or religious affiliation, and if so, what are the findings? > > You focus on religious institutions, but have you ruled out a competing > As I have stated, I have not ruled out any other factors, including is explained by other factors? Violence may influence death rates too, but it is not a major influence Since you are interested in discussing religious violence as an Thank you, You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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From: Luis Gutierrez <luisgutier...@peoplepc.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:11:55 -0400
Local: Sat, Aug 5 2006 9:11 pm
Subject: Re: [Global Change: 467] Re: Global Impacts of Religious Violence
dli...@tds.net wrote: If you limit the discussion to things that can be numerically measured > I think we might agree that grounding the discussion in empirical data > would help us picture the issues and keep them in focus. in some unambiguous units of measurement, then you may be excluding some of the factors that really matter. I am in favor of using measurements when they are meaningful and credible, but in human affairs it is wise not to give excessive importance to numerical measurements. In my original post I listed some examples of aggregate population If a concept is critical to enhance understanding about how things work > I was prompted by Jame's Annan's comment that "religion is obviously OK, but Canada is not the world. In other regions, the rankings by > relevant" to global change. After briefly wondering if it were so, I > recognized one potential pathway: the impact of religion on > reproductive decision-making, since population growth is widely > regarded as an important driver of global change, and birth rates are > known to vary by religion. For example, in Canada, 2001: > Muslim 2.41 children per woman in 2001 birth rate would be different. This forum is a discussion about ***global change***, and we better keep it at that level unless we want to drown in a sea of minutiae. Indeed, sometimes it is very useful to look at regional data sets. However, cross-regional comparisons are currently very fluid due to globalization and migration. > You have introduced the concept of "patriarchal mind set" into this Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly, so let me try to explain my > discussion as an important influence on reproductive decision making - > more important than religion. Can you tell us more about this - for > example, does "patriarchal mind set" vary by religion? Does it explain > why people of some relgions have higher or lower birth rates than > people of other religions? Have you (or anyone else) measured it, or > measured its relation to birth rates or religious affiliation, and if > so, what are the findings? understanding of "patriarchy." The point is not that patriarchy is more important than religion. This is not the point. The point is that patriarchy *corrupts* religion, and by corrupting religion contributes to many other forms of corruption. Let's start with dictionary definitions of patriarchy. Patriarchy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/patriarchy Mindset (or mind-set): http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=mind-set The patriarchal mindset is self-evident in both secular and religious BTW, two possible translations of Genesis 3:16 are currently being Then he said to the woman, "You will bear children with intense pain and But this one has a new twist: Then he said to the woman, "You will bear children with intense pain and http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%203:16;&version=5... In other words, the "patriarchal mindset" is a mentality of *domination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology_of_the_Body and there are several "theology of the body" websites, for example: http://www.theologyofthebody.net/ Back to the concept of "patriarchal mindset." Even though this is not a Such dominance usually goes together with low educational levels (both http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator.cfm?IndicatorID=138#row It seems to me that the countries with the highest fertility rates are For some additional research by others, see the following: http://www.bibletexts.com/qa/qa125.htm > Seldom considered, perhaps because any measurable influence it may have It is certainly possible for any "effect" to be caused by more than one > is explained by other factors? factor. If the effect is bad, then it is a matter of due diligence to investigate all the known factors, and even search for hitherto unknwon factors in order to mitigate harm to humanity as much as possible. > Violence may influence death rates too, but it is not a major influence Not sure that this is true. > - and religious violence even less than violence from all causes. > Population is certainly not the only factor in global change: the According to the daily news, it seems to me that religion-induced > effect of population on environment is mediated by organization and > technology. Religion's influence on the adoption and diffusion of > technical innovation may be an important factor in global change, for > example, as regards birth control technology or uranium enrichment > technology. violence is not something to be ignored. > Since you are interested in discussing religious violence as an Examples: > overlooked factor in global change, perhaps you could suggest some ways > that may be observed, and what your observations are? 1. Historically, many violent conflicts and wars have been (to a 2. The 9/11 attack was (to a significant extent) religiously motivated. 3. The current violence in the Middle East is (to a significant extent) For additional data and analyses, you may want to visit the following The Religious Consultation on Population, Reproductive Health and Ethics A Guide to Global Population Projections Population Growth and Fertility Rates Blood and Religion: The unmasking of the Jewish and Democratic State Berkley Center for Religion, Peace, and World Affairs Violence Against Women and the Role of Religion Colloquium on Violence and Religion The last one listed above is one of my favorites, and offers insightful Hope we can continue the conversation on this important topic. Hope Luis You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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From: "Don Libby" <dli...@tds.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 19:54:49 -0500
Local: Sun, Aug 6 2006 8:54 pm
Subject: Re: [Global Change: 473] Re: Global Impacts of Religious Violence
news:44D541DB.7060500@peoplepc.com...
> dli...@tds.net wrote: >> I think we might agree that grounding the discussion in empirical data > If you limit the discussion to things that can be numerically measured should not ignore the data. > In my original post I listed some examples of aggregate population Not to be picky, but the chart you cited was not a trend (change over time) > trends that are informative. it was a cross-section comparing nations at a single point in time (2005). And to my eye, not particularly informative except to say that some nations are more developed than others, by various measures of development. > When you start disaggregating these data, Fertility rates are but one of dozens of indicators lumped together in the > you quickly get to the point in which the "noise" in the data obscures > the "signal," so much so that you end up splitting hairs on numbers that > have minimum relevance to human and social realities. cited chart, but fertility is the dominant factor in population growth, which is a major driver of global change - in fact - population growth *is* a global change. > If a concept is critical to enhance understanding about how things work measurement. You got a good start on it when you asked me to rate religions from zero to one on your innovative patriarchy scale. Ask your colleagues, ask your students, collect about 100 opinions from a broad cross-section of points of view, then publish your results and you'll be well on the way to constructing a commonly accepted scale - the "Gutierrez Patriarchy Scale". > If you exclude those critical factors from consideration, It is always interesting to see new ideas about what really matters, but > then you are ignoring the things that really matter. they should be considered in the context of what is already known to really matter. > OK, but Canada is not the world. In other regions, the rankings by I picked the Canadian data as a matter of convenience to save the work of > birth rate would be different. constructing a table, but the Canadian ranking reflects the global ranking, as shown by this table that I laboriously constructed: Region fertility pct_non pct_chr pct_mus Source: religious prevalence from Table No. 1348. Religious Population of The regression line that describes total fertility as a function of Total Fertility = 3.6 - 11.6 (percent non-religious) - 0.5 (percent The point is that on this great globe of ours, birth rates *do* vary by I thought you had a pretty good idea of *why* they vary by religion: >> You have introduced the concept of "patriarchal mind set" into this > Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly, so let me try to explain my more important than birth control (not more important than religion). > The patriarchal mindset is self-evident in both secular and religious But it *is* amenable to measurement - your rating scale being an example. I > institutions. Both secular and religious patriarchies influence > reproductive decision-making. I am focusing on religious patriarchies > because they are the root cause of all other forms of patriarchy -- in > In other words, the "patriarchal mindset" is a mentality of *domination > and control*, no matter who is unilaterally dominating whom. Clearly, > matriarchy would be as bad as patriarchy. > Back to the concept of "patriarchal mindset." Even though this is not a > concept amenable to numerical measurement, it is not difficult to > recognize in real life, and it is not that difficult to perceive that > there are varying degrees of institutionalized patriarchy in the various > religious traditions. Furthermore, there seems to be a correlation > between the dominance of religious patriarchy is social life and birth > rates. have shown that there is a correlation between religion and birth rates. Now you have merely to show that the reason for this correlation is religious indoctrination in the patriarchal mind set. On your scale, does patriarchy grade from lowest for non-religious people and highest for muslims? > Such dominance usually goes together with low educational levels (both rigidity, and dominance of patriarchy (religious or otherwise) in a country? It needn't be a numerical measure, but it should at least be intersubjective. > This of course is work in progress, but I am not Worthwhile indeed: I would encourage you to explore it more rigorously. > alone in thinking that the religious violence hypothesis is worth > exploring. >> Violence may influence death rates too, but it is not a major influence It is. Source: UN WHO Global Burden of Disease >> - and religious violence even less than violence from all causes. > Not sure that this is true. http://www.who.int/whr/2002/annex/en/index.html Annex Table 2 Deaths by cause, sex and mortality stratum in WHO Regions, Global total estimated deaths: 56,554,000 100% It is not clear what portion of the 1.3% due to violence and war is due to >> Population is certainly not the only factor in global change: the > According to the daily news, it seems to me that religion-induced than headlines. Regards, You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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