Why GeoNames uses Google Maps and not OpenStreetMaps?

[elf Pavlik]

Hello,

Could someone explain me why GeoNames uses Google Maps in its
interface, instead of supporting OpenStreetMaps which I believe have
more in common with GeoNames?
I really try to support open solutions over proprietary ones and I
believe that many people using GeoNames would prefer OpenStreetMaps
over Google Maps.

Thanks,
elf Pavlik

[Marc Wick]

Hi Elf

The answer is very simple. GeoNames is not allowed to use openstreetmap.
The osm share-alike license is too restrictive.

Display: The current type of share-alike license osm is using probably
even forbids to do mashups and display points on top of the map. (Osm
has been planing for years to switch the license to overcome this issue.)

Edit interface: some in the osm community consider the edit interface
GeoNames is using on top of the map a derivation of the underlying map
and thus it is not allowed. This issue will not be solved with the new
osm license. We don't believe that the kind of interface geonames is
using results in a derivation of the map, but we accept the whish that
the osm community does not want people to use their map.

In short: GeoNames also prefers open solutions and google maps is more
open than osm.

Best

Marc

[Daniel O'Connor]

Could we ask them very nicely for an exception? (CC-By)?

Bribery with donuts FTW

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[Marc Wick]

I fear 'them' would mean asking everybody who has ever contributed to
osm including those who have died.

Marc

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[Daniel O'Connor]

Well; http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460644/ can do it, why not us.


IANAL; but worth thinking about - the raw, simple factual data may not be copyrightable at all - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweat_of_the_brow#US_copyright_law

Actually using the rendered images, javascript and API data, might be a bit trickier re their interpretations of derived works; but what exactly are you producing? Facts? Which themselves can't be copyrighted?

I know it's a licence, but CC-By-SA does explicitly say:

"2. Fair Dealing Rights. Nothing in this License is intended to reduce, limit, or restrict any uses free from copyright or rights arising from limitations or exceptions that are provided for in connection with the copyright protection under copyright law or other applicable laws."

.... so you might be in the clear.


I was surprised to think about copyright like this, but a recent Australian decision (http://gesterling.wordpress.com/2010/02/14/sensis-loses-copyright-control-of-listings/) pointed this out to me; and the US is a bit ahead of things here.


 
Alternatively:
Say screw it, violate the licence, put up a page explaining what you are doing, and wait for the DMCA takedown or similar. It's not like you are Evil Company X bent on world domination, so how likely is it that OSM contributors would react badly (and hey; put pictures of donuts onto the explaining pages )

[elf Pavlik]

Mark,

Thanks for this in depth reply!

I will try to get in touch with people from OSM community and discuss
this issues.
According to: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Geonames OSM uses
GeoNames for their search functionality. IMHO it would make sense if
GeoNames, and other services could use OSM maps for mapping.

Could you or someone else elaborate little more on this issue with OSM
wiki stating that GeoNames is 'Not free enough' as a datasource for
OSM?

Thanks one more time!
elf Pavlik

[Marc Wick]

Daniel

I fear it would be very very likely that some osm contributors will
sooner or later try to sue applications and projects using osm data. And
if they don't yet exist it is very easy for lawsuit extortionists to
create an osm account, upload some tracks to osm and then sue (=ask for
money) everybody using these tracks or for using osm in general. They
already do it with wikipedia [1,2] why shouldn't they do it with osm?

Why should we make our life difficult when we can as well use googlemaps
and are sure not to run into troubles with lawsuit extortionists?

Best

Marc

[1]
http://blog.assoziations-blaster.de/2009/04/abmahnung-mit-wikipedia.html
[2]
http://blog.odem.org/2009/04/wikipedia-missbrauch.html

Daniel O'Connor wrote:
> Well; http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460644/ can do it, why not us.
>
>
> IANAL; but worth thinking about - the raw, simple factual data may not
> be copyrightable at all -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweat_of_the_brow#US_copyright_law
>
> Actually using the rendered images, javascript and API data, might be a
> bit trickier re their interpretations of derived works; but what exactly
> are you producing? Facts? Which themselves can't be copyrighted?
>

> I know it's a /licence/, but CC-By-SA does explicitly say:
>
> *"2. Fair Dealing Rights.* Nothing in this License is intended to

> reduce, limit, or restrict any uses free from copyright or rights
> arising from limitations or exceptions that are provided for in
> connection with the copyright protection under copyright law or other
> applicable laws."
>
> .... so you might be in the clear.
>
>
> I was surprised to think about copyright like this, but a recent
> Australian decision
> (http://gesterling.wordpress.com/2010/02/14/sensis-loses-copyright-control-of-listings/)
> pointed this out to me; and the US is a bit ahead of things here.
>
>
>
> Alternatively:

> Say /screw it/, violate the licence, put up a page explaining what you

> are doing, and wait for the DMCA takedown or similar. It's not like you
> are Evil Company X bent on world domination, so how likely is it that
> OSM contributors would react badly (and hey; put pictures of donuts onto
> the explaining pages )
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Marc Wick <ma...@geonames.org
> <mailto:ma...@geonames.org>> wrote:
>
> I fear 'them' would mean asking everybody who has ever contributed
> to osm including those who have died.
>
> Marc
>
> Daniel O'Connor wrote:
>
> Could we ask them very nicely for an exception? (CC-By)?
>
> Bribery with donuts FTW
>
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 7:52 AM, Marc Wick <ma...@geonames.org
> <mailto:ma...@geonames.org>

> <mailto:geon...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:geon...@googlegroups.com>>.
>
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[Marc Wick]

It is the discussion I have mentioned in the previous message. They
think the edit interface results in a derivation of the original data:
http://forum.geonames.org/gforum/posts/list/1712.page

Nobody else is sharing this view, but as a consequence it means they
think GeoNames (or any application that has some kind of edit interface)
is not allowed to use osm.

Best

Marc