2 questions

[webEater]

- Why are OpenStreetMap users forced not to use any 3rd party data
which are not officially permitted as help for fixing points and draw
streets, while Geoname contributors may use Google Maps to correct
places and so on? I think it's great that GeoName contributors can use
data which is not CC licensed, but do you know why OSM users must not
use official maps?

- I just have taken a look at the editor: Many points are still
incorrect - I directly fixed some to test the interface. (It works
great!) Why seem some points arranged in one horizontal or vertical
line - grid like. I think this must have happend because of bad data
resolutions, probably not enough decimal places considerated. Are
source data incorrect or has someone made a fault, when he was
importing the data? Probably this is not meant how it is:
http://www.geonames.org/maps/google_49.75_6.633.html

That's it. I will write more soon about my local database setup and
some performance tests I will do. geonames will really make the world
better, when data is going to be more consistent.

I want to thank the main contributors and the people who make the core
work!

[Daniel Zeman]

webEater napsal(a):
> ...

> - I just have taken a look at the editor: Many points are still
> incorrect - I directly fixed some to test the interface. (It works
> great!) Why seem some points arranged in one horizontal or vertical
> line - grid like. I think this must have happend because of bad data
> resolutions, probably not enough decimal places considerated. Are
> source data incorrect or has someone made a fault, when he was
> importing the data? Probably this is not meant how it is:
> http://www.geonames.org/maps/google_49.75_6.633.html
>

Exactly. Many data sources use degrees and minutes only, no seconds.
That is why many names are located imprecisely and appear arranged in a
grid.

Dan

[Anthony Cartmell]

> - Why are OpenStreetMap users forced not to use any 3rd party data
> which are not officially permitted as help for fixing points and draw
> streets, while Geoname contributors may use Google Maps to correct
> places and so on?

Because OpenStreetMap are very very very worried about licensing issues.
Their strategy is "better safe than sorry", which I suppose is a valid one.

No-one really knows whether the future will mean that Google or others
claim "their" data, and somehow force GeoNames and countless millions of
other sites that use Google Maps to pay licence fees or shut down.
Personally I think the genie is already out of the bottle, and the sheer
numbers of people creating and sharing geo data derived from various
different sources (Google Maps, Google Earth, Yahoo, and even the UK
Ordnance Survey to a certain extent: via proprietory mapping products like
MemoryMap and Tracklogs) means that all this data is pretty-much public
domain anyway. But I suppose OSM and Geonames are easy targets for any
licensing battles, so perhaps need to be more careful than smaller sites
and individuals.

> I think it's great that GeoName contributors can use
> data which is not CC licensed, but do you know why OSM users must not
> use official maps?

Because they are worried about their data being "contaminated" with
proprietory data. Some licences are _very_ restictive: if you trace a
track from Ordnance Survey data, then the data belongs to Ordnance Survey
because it's a "derived work", and as such is subject to Crown Copyright.
This dates from the time of paper maps: to display a route taken from an
OS map on the web requires a "paper map copying licence"!

Anthony
--
www.fonant.com - Quality web sites

[asGoogleGroups]

I agree with your comments about the licence, they are playing safe
which I think is wise, restrictive but safer.

I have another question. If I use geonames to locate a place and it
gives me an approximate point, Can I use googlemaps to move the
pointer and get the right place? May I store these new coordinates?
What about the original ones from the geocode from Google, Can I
stored them? (for Yahoo! I know I cannot do the last thing, but I am
not sure about Google in both scenarios and about Yahoo! in the
scenario when you correct a coordinate.)

Thanks!
-as

[Anthony Cartmell]

> I have another question. If I use geonames to locate a place and it
> gives me an approximate point, Can I use googlemaps to move the
> pointer and get the right place? May I store these new coordinates?

Yes, and yes, as I understand it. I don't think Google tries to keep
ownership of points digitised using their base mapping, unlike the UK's
Ordnance Survey. The location of a town is very subjective, anyway, so
your point may be quite different from the point Google uses for their
geocoding or map drawing.

If you're worried, using the satellite image might be less risky in terms
of data ownership, although I can't see any difference in the Terms of Use
between maps and images. A point digitised from a satellite image uses
that image plus any other data used to locate that image in the correct
place.

Google make it easy, indeed they encourage, people to find locations by
clicking on their maps, and then storing and sharing the results.

> What about the original ones from the geocode from Google, Can I
> stored them?

I think so, yes. You might get into trouble if you mass-geocoded all the
place names in a whole region, as then you'd be able to compete with
Google's data suppliers. So probably better to define where _you_ think
the place is, not where someone else locates it.

I am not a lawyer, but, given the mass use of data generated from locating
things on Google maps, I can't really see how they can hope to control
that data's use. And there isn't anything in the Terms and Conditions
saying you can't.

I have also had conversations with Ordnance Survey about digitising points
from maps. If you do it from the OS maps then they own the data, that's
quite clear. You need a license to publish that data. But they said that
Google's mapping, even though it's based on data that is based on OS data,
would have different terms of use, and points clicked on a Google map
would not belong to the OS.

I think the laws of copyright need to catch up with what's happening in
the new world of mass online mapping!

HTH,

[asGoogleGroups]

Anthony,

Thanks for the reply. Now I have a better idea of what to do (and what
not to).

Regards
-as

[webEater]

OK, good to know. So there has to be done much to make the data
correct.

[webEater]

Thank you for the detailed answer. I like OpenStreetMap and the idea
behind it and it's a question of safety. But ... simple points and
hierarchies of points are really less "unique" works than ways and
areas with tags and other meta content.
It would be nonsense, if Google forced users to give back something
which is based on an image of reality ;)