What if Earth had rings like Saturn?
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Dan Whaley
Nov 23, 2009, 4:41:05 PM11/23/09
to geoengineering
Just for laughs...
This is wonderful eye candy.
http://idealog.co.nz/blog/idealist/rings-around-planet-earth
Of course the question is how much cooling would they provide. It
would be permanent of course. (Ah well...)
Great to see the 3D renderings from the POV of different cities and
different times of day....
Enjoy.
Dan
This is wonderful eye candy.
http://idealog.co.nz/blog/idealist/rings-around-planet-earth
Of course the question is how much cooling would they provide. It
would be permanent of course. (Ah well...)
Great to see the 3D renderings from the POV of different cities and
different times of day....
Enjoy.
Dan
Ken Caldeira
Nov 23, 2009, 5:21:12 PM11/23/09
to dan.w...@gmail.com, geoengineering
When I was a post-doc at Penn State working with Jim Kasting we did calculations of changes in solar flux from rings as a possible explanation of low-latitude glaciations in the ancient past, but we didn't published them. I think we decided you would need quite a ring to freeze the equator. At that time we were not interested in more subtle effects.
Here is a manuscript that looks at the issue. I haven't looked at it carefully to see if it is right: http://www.star-tech-inc.com/papers/earth_rings/earth_rings.pdf
Of course, an equatorial ring would shade only the winter hemisphere.
___________________________________________________
Ken Caldeira
Carnegie Institution Dept of Global Ecology
260 Panama Street, Stanford, CA 94305 USA
kcal...@ciw.edu; kcal...@stanford.edu
http://dge.stanford.edu/DGE/CIWDGE/labs/caldeiralab
+1 650 704 7212; fax: +1 650 462 5968
Here is a manuscript that looks at the issue. I haven't looked at it carefully to see if it is right: http://www.star-tech-inc.com/papers/earth_rings/earth_rings.pdf
Of course, an equatorial ring would shade only the winter hemisphere.
___________________________________________________
Ken Caldeira
Carnegie Institution Dept of Global Ecology
260 Panama Street, Stanford, CA 94305 USA
kcal...@ciw.edu; kcal...@stanford.edu
http://dge.stanford.edu/DGE/CIWDGE/labs/caldeiralab
+1 650 704 7212; fax: +1 650 462 5968
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Neil Farbstein
Nov 23, 2009, 5:01:03 PM11/23/09
to geoengineering
Bad ideas abound Dan. This is one of them. Permanent rings around the
earth will screw things up in a lot of undesirable ways we might
regret later. How would you do that? Take huge ice chips off castillo
and ship them to earth orbit?
earth will screw things up in a lot of undesirable ways we might
regret later. How would you do that? Take huge ice chips off castillo
and ship them to earth orbit?
Dan Whaley
Nov 23, 2009, 5:44:30 PM11/23/09
to pro...@att.net, geoengineering
Neil,
Like I said... merely beautiful eye candy. For laughs only. The video is fun to watch.
... as the paper Ken sent mentions (interesting that someone actually published on this) a particle ring endangers LEO satellites (in addition to the permanence issue) ... so problems ad infinitum.
The table on page 2 of the paper is quite interesting as a summary of techniques... I love the Korycansky suggestion to move the earth to a more distant orbit.... and Criswell... "Lower sun's mass..."
I guess it's good to cover all the bases.
Dan
Like I said... merely beautiful eye candy. For laughs only. The video is fun to watch.
... as the paper Ken sent mentions (interesting that someone actually published on this) a particle ring endangers LEO satellites (in addition to the permanence issue) ... so problems ad infinitum.
The table on page 2 of the paper is quite interesting as a summary of techniques... I love the Korycansky suggestion to move the earth to a more distant orbit.... and Criswell... "Lower sun's mass..."
I guess it's good to cover all the bases.
Dan
James R. Fleming
Nov 23, 2009, 8:06:24 PM11/23/09
to dan.w...@gmail.com, geoengineering
Nice animation of an old idea.
Fig. 7.3. Saturn-like ring of reflective particles launched into Earth orbit
to warm the Arctic. Source: Rusin N.P. and L.A. Flit. Man Versus Climate.
Moscow: Peace Publishers, 1960, cover.
(From my forthcoming book)
Fig. 7.3. Saturn-like ring of reflective particles launched into Earth orbit
to warm the Arctic. Source: Rusin N.P. and L.A. Flit. Man Versus Climate.
Moscow: Peace Publishers, 1960, cover.
(From my forthcoming book)
David Keith
Nov 23, 2009, 8:16:41 PM11/23/09
to KCal...@gmail.com, dan.w...@gmail.com, geoengineering
Even where this not a joke, there is a problem. When I first got interested in this topic about 1990 one of the first things I did was look at the NAS estimates about orbiting mirrors or scatters. Problem is if you use mass-efficient scatterers they are rapidly blown out of orbit by light pressure.
The Russin and Flit book worth a look. There are earlier soviet reference as well. It was the engineered everything era.
-David
Dan Whaley
Nov 23, 2009, 8:42:56 PM11/23/09
to James R. Fleming, geoengineering
Jim,
I may have missed it... have you announced a publication date yet? Looking fwd to it.
Dan
I may have missed it... have you announced a publication date yet? Looking fwd to it.
Dan
Neil Farbstein
Nov 23, 2009, 9:18:22 PM11/23/09
to geoengineering
If the soviets built an orbital ring it would be made of cast iron and
heavy enough to resist light pressure.
On Nov 23, 8:16 pm, "David Keith" <ke...@ucalgary.ca> wrote:
> Even where this not a joke, there is a problem. When I first got
> interested in this topic about 1990 one of the first things I did was
> look at the NAS estimates about orbiting mirrors or scatters. Problem is
> if you use mass-efficient scatterers they are rapidly blown out of orbit
> by light pressure.
>
> The Russin and Flit book worth a look. There are earlier soviet
> reference as well. It was the engineered everything era.
>
> -David
>
> ________________________________
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Dan Whaley <dan.wha...@gmail.com>
> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=.
heavy enough to resist light pressure.
On Nov 23, 8:16 pm, "David Keith" <ke...@ucalgary.ca> wrote:
> Even where this not a joke, there is a problem. When I first got
> interested in this topic about 1990 one of the first things I did was
> look at the NAS estimates about orbiting mirrors or scatters. Problem is
> if you use mass-efficient scatterers they are rapidly blown out of orbit
> by light pressure.
>
> The Russin and Flit book worth a look. There are earlier soviet
> reference as well. It was the engineered everything era.
>
> -David
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: kcalde...@gmail.com [mailto:kcalde...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Ken
> Caldeira
> Sent: November 23, 2009 3:21 PM
> To: dan.wha...@gmail.com
> Cc: geoengineering
> Subject: Re: [geo] What if Earth had rings like Saturn?
>
> When I was a post-doc at Penn State working with Jim Kasting we did
> calculations of changes in solar flux from rings as a possible
> explanation of low-latitude glaciations in the ancient past, but we
> didn't published them. I think we decided you would need quite a ring to
> freeze the equator. At that time we were not interested in more subtle
> effects.
>
> Here is a manuscript that looks at the issue. I haven't looked at it
> carefully to see if it is right:http://www.star-tech-inc.com/papers/earth_rings/earth_rings.pdf
>
> Of course, an equatorial ring would shade only the winter hemisphere.
>
> ___________________________________________________
> Ken Caldeira
>
> Carnegie Institution Dept of Global Ecology
> 260 Panama Street, Stanford, CA 94305 USA
>
> kcalde...@ciw.edu; kcalde...@stanford.eduhttp://dge.stanford.edu/DGE/CIWDGE/labs/caldeiralab
> Caldeira
> Sent: November 23, 2009 3:21 PM
> To: dan.wha...@gmail.com
> Cc: geoengineering
> Subject: Re: [geo] What if Earth had rings like Saturn?
>
> When I was a post-doc at Penn State working with Jim Kasting we did
> calculations of changes in solar flux from rings as a possible
> explanation of low-latitude glaciations in the ancient past, but we
> didn't published them. I think we decided you would need quite a ring to
> freeze the equator. At that time we were not interested in more subtle
> effects.
>
> Here is a manuscript that looks at the issue. I haven't looked at it
> carefully to see if it is right:http://www.star-tech-inc.com/papers/earth_rings/earth_rings.pdf
>
> Of course, an equatorial ring would shade only the winter hemisphere.
>
> ___________________________________________________
> Ken Caldeira
>
> Carnegie Institution Dept of Global Ecology
> 260 Panama Street, Stanford, CA 94305 USA
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Dan Whaley <dan.wha...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Just for laughs...
>
> This is wonderful eye candy.
>
> http://idealog.co.nz/blog/idealist/rings-around-planet-earth
>
> Of course the question is how much cooling would they provide. It
> would be permanent of course. (Ah well...)
>
> Great to see the 3D renderings from the POV of different cities and
> different times of day....
>
> Enjoy.
>
> Dan
>
> --
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "geoengineering" group.
> To post to this group, send email to geoengi...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> geoengineerin...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:geoengineering%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com> .
>
> Just for laughs...
>
> This is wonderful eye candy.
>
> http://idealog.co.nz/blog/idealist/rings-around-planet-earth
>
> Of course the question is how much cooling would they provide. It
> would be permanent of course. (Ah well...)
>
> Great to see the 3D renderings from the POV of different cities and
> different times of day....
>
> Enjoy.
>
> Dan
>
> --
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "geoengineering" group.
> To post to this group, send email to geoengi...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> geoengineerin...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=.
Oliver Morton
Nov 24, 2009, 5:48:53 AM11/24/09
to geoengineering
David -- surely feature, not bug? Erosion by light pressure makes the
effect controllable. If you have the infrastructure to create a space
based system, aren't marginal costs of replenishment comparatively
small?
The rings would play hell with our space elevators, though...
That paper Ken forwarded mentions some even better stuff: skimming
mass of the sun to decrease luminosity and extend main-sequence life,
and moving earth outwards with Kuiper belt near misses.
effect controllable. If you have the infrastructure to create a space
based system, aren't marginal costs of replenishment comparatively
small?
The rings would play hell with our space elevators, though...
That paper Ken forwarded mentions some even better stuff: skimming
mass of the sun to decrease luminosity and extend main-sequence life,
and moving earth outwards with Kuiper belt near misses.
Oliver Morton
Nov 24, 2009, 6:09:54 AM11/24/09
to geoengineering
Dan
Surely shepherding moons could be arranged to keep relevant bits of
LEO and the GEO orbits clear?
Or we could integrate smart dust into the scheme and use the rings to
image everything with sparse array procedures, phased arrays for
active sensing, etc. Put all of the data cloud up there too, solar
powered and massively parallel
Wish the animator had included images of the sunlit/shadow transition,
of winter views and of rings in front of the sun...
o
> > geoengineerin...@googlegroups.com<geoengineering%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .
Surely shepherding moons could be arranged to keep relevant bits of
LEO and the GEO orbits clear?
Or we could integrate smart dust into the scheme and use the rings to
image everything with sparse array procedures, phased arrays for
active sensing, etc. Put all of the data cloud up there too, solar
powered and massively parallel
Wish the animator had included images of the sunlit/shadow transition,
of winter views and of rings in front of the sun...
o
> > .
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