sketchup geodesic design problem

[sergio_cohen]

Hello,how are you.
Im a geodesic dome fan and constructor,

The thing is that I m making a model in Sketchup the way Im doing in
reality, and cant put things in place.
I thought maybe here more experienced people can take a look at it.
I uploaded to the 3d library of google under geodesic dome component
unfinished

Thank you anyways for your constributions ...
Sergio
www.genesisgeodesica.com.ar

[Pablo Rodriguez]

Hola Sergio

Hablas español? Soy de Chile y tengo experiencia en el tema.

De hecho te adjunto una imágen donde apliqué render y se ve muy bien!

Abrazos

[TaffGoch]

Sergio,

 

I downloaded your model...

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=562fcabfdee93dacedb6e9e1c4aee804

 

You have discovered the big hurdle of learning 3D-graphics modeling:  How do you position things in 3D space?

 

It is required that you have prior knowledge of x,y,z coordinates for vertices, and angles in each plane (or spherical-geometry angles.)

 

It is not only a problem with domes, but with just about anything you try to model with computer programs. To model domes is more difficult than a typical "box" house, but not as complicated as aircraft or cars (and there are lots of those in Google's 3D Warehouse.) Those SketchUp users aren't any different from you, except for experience.

 

Truthfully, without a LOT of work, very few users can do what you're trying to do (called "stick building.") Instead, I always start with a spherical geodesic template, and work from there to generate frame struts, panels and windows. If you examine the steps depicted in this SketchUp model, you can see what I mean:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=6e17295bb802fe07180b9f756a195555

 

ALL of my models start with geodesic sphere templates, modeled mathematically with Excel spreadsheets. Once I have the template imported into SketchUp, I can add components and other geometry, to achieve the results that I want. I can't of any other way I could do it.

_____________________

 

Regarding your model, what frequency dome is it going to be? I should be able to provide a template (skeleton) for you to build on.

 

-Taff

[TaffGoch]

Sergio,

From your model, it is obvious that you also have some chord factors
you are using.

What are the values of the chord factors you have?

Taff

[Ken G. Brown]

I have had reasonable success in geodesic modelling on CAD by using construction techniques (no entering of numbers) to make a wireframe model of the base polygon desired to work with to serve as a template to start with. That way the template is accurate to the best capability of the CAD program. I then rotate the template wireframe so that the zenith is where I want it, then just work with a unit of symmetry of the whole.

In most cases I made a icosahedron scaled with the vertexes at radius = 1. Then added the spherical icosahedron equivalent. I usually hide all but an appropriate parts of the whole on a different layer. For example, I have normally used an icosahedron edge to the zenith, and leave the two connecting icosahedron faces visible, with the lower icosa face vertexes along the x axis, then depending on the breakdown, start with an icosahedron face or the alternate triangle made by connecting the centroids of the icosahedron faces as a starting unit of symmetry.

If I define planes appropriately for example through the pent cap bases, I can rotate the pieces I start with around vertexes so that I can build the complete spherical geodesic from just the base unit of symmetry I start with. It gets a little mind bending to know which plane to use at which times to get the parts onto the far side without duplications but with the help of a real paper model you can hold in your hand, it is doable. You can mark on the paper model which faces you have attended to already, etc.

I find it is good to keep to the pure geometry until you have what you want as a wireframe, then worry about making the representation of real pieces to fit the geometry. Keep the wireframe as sort of construction lines which you can snap to etc.
I always just work only with the unit of symmetry parts to start, then use the rotate/duplicate functions relative to the various planes I've defined, to get the parts wherever on the sphere they are required.

Have fun!
Ken G. Brown

At 1:56 PM -0500 6/24/10, TaffGoch apparently wrote:
>Sergio,
>
>I downloaded your model...

><http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=562fcabfdee93dacedb6e9e1c4aee804>http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=562fcabfdee93dacedb6e9e1c4aee804

>
>You have discovered the big hurdle of learning 3D-graphics modeling: How do you position things in 3D space?
>
>It is required that you have prior knowledge of x,y,z coordinates for vertices, and angles in each plane (or spherical-geometry angles.)
>
>It is not only a problem with domes, but with just about anything you try to model with computer programs. To model domes is more difficult than a typical "box" house, but not as complicated as aircraft or cars (and there are lots of those in Google's 3D Warehouse.) Those SketchUp users aren't any different from you, except for experience.
>
>Truthfully, without a LOT of work, very few users can do what you're trying to do (called "stick building.") Instead, I always start with a spherical geodesic template, and work from there to generate frame struts, panels and windows. If you examine the steps depicted in this SketchUp model, you can see what I mean:

><http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=6e17295bb802fe07180b9f756a195555>http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=6e17295bb802fe07180b9f756a195555

>
>ALL of my models start with geodesic sphere templates, modeled mathematically with Excel spreadsheets. Once I have the template imported into SketchUp, I can add components and other geometry, to achieve the results that I want. I can't of any other way I could do it.
>_____________________
>
>Regarding your model, what frequency dome is it going to be? I should be able to provide a template (skeleton) for you to build on.
>
>-Taff
>

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>Content-Type: image/png; name="anclajes_FIII_vigas_1.png"
>Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="anclajes_FIII_vigas_1.png"
>X-Attachment-Id: f_gatximpu0
>
>Attachment converted: MacProHD0:anclajes_FIII_vigas_1.png (PNGf/«IC») (0794BEFB)

[TaffGoch]

 

"I find it is good to keep to the pure geometry until you have what you want as a wireframe, then worry about making the representation of real pieces to fit the geometry." ~ Ken G. Brown

 

Good advice...

______________________

 

Sergio,

 

Assuming you have 3 chord factors (red, green & blue,) I generated a quick model to demonstrate the positioning of hubs (attached.)

 

Including hub centerlines can help, when rotating pieces into position. They can be hidden, by turning off their layer. Note that the centerlines pass through the centerpoint of the dome sphere.

 

The dome template can also be hidden, at will, by turning off that layer. I suggest you get used to using layers to control visibility of components & groups. It helps easily keep your visualization of the model clean, when you want to.

 

-Taff

[TaffGoch]

Sergio,

These two articles describe how to use the SketchUp "Rotate" and
"Protractor" tools, to your advantage.

http://groups.google.com/group/SketchUp/web/faqs-for-learning-more-advanced-tips-and-techniques#ProtractorOrient
http://groups.google.com/group/geodesichelp/web/taking-measurements-from-geodesic-models?hl=en

Mastering rotations is an absolute necessity, when modeling geodesic
domes.

-Taff

[sergio_cohen]

It´s Freq. III (10 mts diameter) taking off centimeters less of the
hub
I think the problem is difference on 1 or 2 milimeters, or 1/10 of
degree.
Anyways your method is better, it only that I thought it can be done,
because geometry is faithful,who is not faithful is my
knowledge of sketchup.
You need to create the "wood segment" one by one?
thanks,
Sergio

On 24 jun, 15:56, TaffGoch <taffg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sergio,
>

> I downloaded your model...http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=562fcabfdee93daced...

>
> You have discovered the big hurdle of learning 3D-graphics modeling:  How do
> you position things in 3D space?
>
> It is required that you have prior knowledge of x,y,z coordinates for
> vertices, and angles in each plane (or spherical-geometry angles.)
>
> It is not only a problem with domes, but with just about anything you try to
> model with computer programs. To model domes is more difficult than a
> typical "box" house, but not as complicated as aircraft or cars (and there
> are lots of those in Google's 3D Warehouse.) Those SketchUp users aren't any
> different from you, except for experience.
>
> Truthfully, without a LOT of work, very few users can do what you're trying
> to do (called "stick building.") Instead, I always start with a spherical
> geodesic template, and work from there to generate frame struts, panels and
> windows. If you examine the steps depicted in this SketchUp model, you can

> see what I mean:http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=6e17295bb802fe0718...

>
> ALL of my models start with geodesic sphere templates, modeled
> mathematically with Excel spreadsheets. Once I have the template imported
> into SketchUp, I can add components and other geometry, to achieve the
> results that I want. I can't of any other way I could do it.
> _____________________
>
> Regarding your model, what frequency dome is it going to be? I should be
> able to provide a template (skeleton) for you to build on.
>
> -Taff
>

>  anclajes_FIII_vigas_1.png
> 37 KVerDescargar

[sergio_cohen]

0,3486 0,4035 0,4124

[TaffGoch]

Sergio,

I used to create each "wood" strut, one-at-a-time. Now that I am more
experienced with SketchUp, I can create one component, then position
copies, and rotate them to their proper locations.

-Taff

[TaffGoch]

" 0,3486 0,4035 0,4124 "

What luck!

Those are precisely the same chord factors of the geodesic template in
my example model.

-Taff

[TaffGoch]

Sergio,

 

Attached is another example model, depicting the positioning of strut components.

 

I defined a "master" strut component, and placed copies "on the surface" of the template. Each strut has to be rotated to align with the geodesic template chords, then rotated again to align with the centerpoint of the dome template. I used SketchUp's "Scale" tool to shorten each strut to the proper length.

 

Note that you can take advantage of the rotational symmetry of the dome, to position copies of struts 72-degrees and 60-degrees, so it's not as much work as it first appears.

 

This, of course, is just the start of modeling such a dome. Hopefully, it gives you an idea of how to proceed.

 

-Taff

[sergio_cohen]

Yes,Taff, is true ! got to mastering in rotation tool. Nice how you
put those hubs in place, Im trying to do the rest.
Thanks a lot! l will continue work on this ideas....

>  anclajes_FIII_vigas_2b.skp
> 459 KVerDescargar
>
>  anclajes_FIII_vigas_2b.png
> 118 KVerDescargar

[TaffGoch]

Sergio,

 

Playing some more with your model, I made the similar struts "unique," so that changes to the red struts won't affect blue & green ones, etc.

 

Learn how SketchUp "components" can save you a lot of work (instead of using "groups.") Now that the similar struts are separate components, you only have to edit one of each, to change the other struts that share the same component definition. This is the next logical step in developing the model. The model now has 3 strut components -- red, green and blue.

 

It's late here, so I'm off to bed.

 

Have fun,

Taff

[sergio_cohen]

Yeah me too! its about 1am.. you really fly with sketchup geodesics.
take a look tomorrow of some designs I maded with your original
models:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwdzndi7hW4
good night and thanks a lot

>  anclajes_FIII_vigas_2c.skp
> 463 KVerDescargar
>
>  anclajes_FIII_vigas_2c.png
> 105 KVerDescargar

[Pablo Rodriguez]

amazing!

congrats! Next step after Sketchup is Kerkythea so you can make
realistic renders. Very useful for presentations.

my very best

Pablo Rodriguez
Productor y Gestor Cultural
pablorodri...@gmail.com
Celular: 09 911 3041

[TaffGoch]

Sergio,

 

I'm gratified to hear that someone is using the geodesic models I posted to the 3D Warehouse. That's why I put them there, but seldom hear whether they're useful to other modelers.

 

Nice YouTube fly-through videos. I've never found the time to develop fly-thrus. (Then again, there's never enough time for ALL the things I want to explore!)

_____________________

 

Pablo,

 

Kerkythea is another thing I need/want to pursue. I'd love to do a chrome render of this....

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=b5d672d6f2b59e982137e32e8ebf2b1

[sergio_cohen]

That video was done in a couple of minutos withh the scenes function
of sketchup and eexpoorted to avi file. Mussic courtesy of youtube.
the "fly-thrus" is done automatically by setchup scene function.
Thanks to all
Sergio

> render of this....http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=b5d672d6f2b59e9821...
>
>  Geodesic _Weave.png
> 238KViewDownload

[TaffGoch]

Sergio,

 

I produced new hub components, and placed them, using multiple rotations of 72° and 120°, using axes that pass through the center of the dome sphere and the dome-template vertices.

 

When studying this model, note the use of guide points, layers and colors (colors can be a great help, while modeling, and actual physical building.) To produce the SketchUp guidepoints, I use a plugin that places a guidepoint at the intersection of two lines. You can find the plugin here:

http://sketchuptips.blogspot.com/2007/08/plugin-point-at-intersection.html

 

Also note the use of components, which saves a lot of work. Edit one, and all others (of the same definition) are automatically updated with the changes. This was particularly useful when editing entitiy colors, and adding the bolts.

___________________________

 

I didn't complete the customized hubs for the "ground" level. I wasn't sure how you were planning to handle the irregularity of the lower tier of struts. The vertices do not lie on the ground plane; at the same level. Typically, builders construct the concrete foundation skirt so that it "undulates" up-and-down, to match the vertices. Alternately, you can modify those hubs & hub positions, and customize the ground struts, to all "lie flat" on the ground, but that introduces additional strut lengths and customized panels. If you use an "undulating" foundation, virtually no one will notice, since the height variation is slight.

 

-Taff

[TaffGoch]

Oh, BTW, edge colors can be activated by going to the "Styles" window, and changing the "Edge settings" to "By material." The default setting is "All same" -- black.

 

-Taff

[Pablo Rodriguez]

ok  here I tried to make it look metalized

I am downloading metal libraries to get more acurate!

Pablo Rodriguez

Productor y Gestor Cultural

pablorodri...@gmail.com

Celular: 09 911 3041

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<Geodesic _Weave.png>

[Pablo Rodriguez]

ok here is chrome!

Pablo Rodriguez

Productor y Gestor Cultural

pablorodri...@gmail.com

Celular: 09 911 3041

On 25-06-2010, at 13:02, TaffGoch wrote:

[TaffGoch]

Ooooo! Shiny!

 

I like the copper one....

 

-Taff

[Ken G. Brown]

Man, when you get the for-real one built, that will be something to behold!

:)

Ken,

from my iPhone

[Pablo Rodriguez]

Thanks !! But The creator of the model deserves the credits!!

Pablo Rodríguez Toledo

09 9113041

Sent from my iPhone

[TaffGoch]

 

I thought about it -- for about 2 seconds....

 

That would be way too much work (unless I could sell it to some art aficionado, for big bucks!)

 

I've downloaded Kerkythea, and plan to play with it, over the weekend. As of now, I've Photoshopped Pablo's image a little bit. (Thanks again, Pablo.)

 

-Taff

[Pablo Rodriguez]

It's my pleasure! 

I just exported the file and aplied the material and then let my mac to do the rest!

Kerythea is so easy that you will make it! I'll be glad to help you if you have any question!

Pablo Rodríguez Toledo

09 9113041

Sent from my iPhone

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<malla_metal_dark.jpg>

[Gerry in Quebec]

Hi Taff & Sergio,
Very interesting thread on modeling the 3v icosa dome in SketchUp.
Thanks.

A number of dome home builders in the USA use a slightly different
geometry for the 3v icosa to avoid the problem of the undulating base.
These include Dome Incorporated (Blair Wolfram), Timberline Domes
(Robert Singer), Natural Spaces Domes (Dennis O. Johnson), and
Worldgarden Domes (Ernie Aiken). That layout has four chord lengths
instead of three, but the dome sits flat at both the 4/9th and 5/9th
truncations (respectively, 4 rows of triangles, often called 3/8ths,
and 5 rows, 5/8ths). As I understand it, Buckminster Fuller came up
with that layout but didn't publish the math behind it. Then, in 1974,
a math teacher from Wisconsin, USA, named David Kruschke, who had
earlier worked on one of Fuller's projects, published a little booklet
showing the derivation using spherical trigonometry.

Kruschke's booklet also shows the derivation of a 4v icosa that sits
flat at the 5/12ths and 7/ths truncations, as well as the equator.

Taff, this might be a good one to add to your superb inventory of
SketchUp models because it's so commonly used by builder, at least in
the USA. In case you or others are interested, here are the 3v chord
factors as well as the spherical coordinates (longitude and latitude)
for the 10 vertices of the icosa parent triangle -- top to bottom,
left to right:

A = 0.32970647, corresponding to the red struts in Taff's diagram
B = 0.38229019, corresponding to the blue struts that form the
perimeters of the pentagons
C = 0.42148879, corresponding to the green struts (and the same
value)
D = 0.44105635, corresponding to the remaining blue struts between
pentagons.

1) 0,0
2) 0, 18.97741733
3) 72, 18.97741733
4) 0, 44.45753149
5) 36, 37.37736814
6) 72, 44.45753149
7) 0, 63.43494882
8) 21.11548730, 59.15028854
9) 50.88451270, 59.15028854
10) 72, 63.43494882

Cheers,
Gerry in Quebec

On Jun 25, 6:23 pm, TaffGoch <taffg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sergio,
>

[Pablo Rodriguez]

A dome hotel down here in Chile. I stayed there and it´s perfect!

http://www.elquidomos.cl/

Pablo Rodriguez

Productor y Gestor Cultural

pablorodri...@gmail.com

Celular: 09 911 3041

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<malla_metal_dark.jpg>

[sergio_cohen]

Hey, Taff, thanks A LOT, you really readed my mind. I was having some
trouble with the hubs (rotating), and didnt want to bother you more,
but ... there, you came out with the job done perfect, and all the
explanation, thats too much!.

I love to learn but time, and physichal limitation (eyes), Im no more
20 years (D.O.S. 2.1, visicalc, lotus 123, wordstar, dbaseII) Im 44
now and many kids.

Lets uploaded to the 3d lib.

Thanks a lot for the job and teachings.
Sergio

On 25 jun, 19:23, TaffGoch <taffg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sergio,
>
> I produced new hub components, and placed them, using multiple rotations of
> 72° and 120°, using axes that pass through the center of the dome sphere and
> the dome-template vertices.
>
> When studying this model, note the use of guide points, layers and colors
> (colors can be a great help, while modeling, and actual physical building.)
> To produce the SketchUp guidepoints, I use a plugin that places a guidepoint

> at the intersection of two lines. You can find the plugin here:http://sketchuptips.blogspot.com/2007/08/plugin-point-at-intersection...

>
> Also note the use of components, which saves a lot of work. Edit one, and
> all others (of the same definition) are automatically updated with the
> changes. This was particularly useful when editing entitiy colors, and
> adding the bolts.
> ___________________________
>
> I didn't complete the customized hubs for the "ground" level. I wasn't sure
> how you were planning to handle the irregularity of the lower tier of
> struts. The vertices do not lie on the ground plane; at the same level.
> Typically, builders construct the concrete foundation skirt so that it
> "undulates" up-and-down, to match the vertices. Alternately, you can modify
> those hubs & hub positions, and customize the ground struts, to all "lie
> flat" on the ground, but that introduces additional strut lengths and
> customized panels. If you use an "undulating" foundation, virtually no one
> will notice, since the height variation is slight.
>
> -Taff
>

>  anclajes_FIII_vigas_3.skp
> 208 KVerDescargar
>
>  anclajes_FIII_vigas_3.png
> 240 KVerDescargar

[sergio_cohen]

I do hope Bucky is a little happier for this were he is!!

On 25 jun, 19:23, TaffGoch <taffg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sergio,
>
> I produced new hub components, and placed them, using multiple rotations of
> 72° and 120°, using axes that pass through the center of the dome sphere and
> the dome-template vertices.
>
> When studying this model, note the use of guide points, layers and colors
> (colors can be a great help, while modeling, and actual physical building.)
> To produce the SketchUp guidepoints, I use a plugin that places a guidepoint

> at the intersection of two lines. You can find the plugin here:http://sketchuptips.blogspot.com/2007/08/plugin-point-at-intersection...

>
> Also note the use of components, which saves a lot of work. Edit one, and
> all others (of the same definition) are automatically updated with the
> changes. This was particularly useful when editing entitiy colors, and
> adding the bolts.
> ___________________________
>
> I didn't complete the customized hubs for the "ground" level. I wasn't sure
> how you were planning to handle the irregularity of the lower tier of
> struts. The vertices do not lie on the ground plane; at the same level.
> Typically, builders construct the concrete foundation skirt so that it
> "undulates" up-and-down, to match the vertices. Alternately, you can modify
> those hubs & hub positions, and customize the ground struts, to all "lie
> flat" on the ground, but that introduces additional strut lengths and
> customized panels. If you use an "undulating" foundation, virtually no one
> will notice, since the height variation is slight.
>
> -Taff
>

[TaffGoch]

Sergio, don't hesitate to ask questions. There are a lot great online
SketchUp tutorials and geodesic resources. If someone here doesn't
have an answer, we will, at least, try to point you in the right
direction.

Gerry, thanks for the chords and, especially, the spherical
coordinates (which are easier to model in SketchUp.) I'll wireframe it
this weekend.

-Taff

[sergio_cohen]

Thanks Gerry, i explored that sometime ago , but realize too that
theres much work with the hubs, changing many of the angules of the
last row of triangules hubs.,and things complicate a little bit. Here
in Argentina people work much with walls made of brick and portland,
and seems easier to fill the gaps with material instead. (little
centimeters) . thanks for the contribution! Sergio

[Gerry in Quebec]

Hi Sergio,
Just to be clear about the Fuller-Kruschke layout.... It is not simply
an adjustment of the arrangement of struts and hubs in the bottom row
of triangles. With this layout, symmetry is maintained throughout the
dome. So the radial angles between pairs of struts in the bottom row
of triangles are the same as those in the upper portion of the dome.

But you're right that it's more work to build the frame because
there's one extra chord length and two extra radial angles. In the
GeodesicHelp files section, I've uploaded a one-page pdf file that
shows, side by side, the hub arrangements, radial angles and face
angles for both the Fuller-Kruschke version and the method 1 version
of the 3v class I dome. File name: hubs-3v-icosa-Kruschke-vs-
method1.pdf.

Cheers,
Gerry in Quebec

[sergio_cohen]

: )
Sergio
BTW I uploaded the finished model in discussion
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=c07cd7b978c8ad97edb6e9e1c4aee804&ct=hprm
"Credits for TaffGoch"

[TaffGoch]

Gerry & Sergio,

 

Here's a comparison of the two subdivision methods. As you can see, method-1 produces 3 struts that are closer in length, while method-Kruschke produces 4 struts that are only a little bit more divergent. As Gerry comments, the Kruschke method produces a level tier of struts at the ground level, for both 4/9ths and 5/9ths truncations -- a characteristic that method-1 does not share.

[Gerry in Quebec]

Thanks, Taff. That's a very clear comparison of the two methods. While
the differences are small, they are meaningful to the dome builder who
has to choose a construction geometry according to the labour, skills
and materials at hand, as Sergio suggested. I'm currently
rehabilitating an old panel dome based on the class 1, method 1
geometry. The base sits flat because it has 10 sides instead of 15,
with 4 trapesoidal panels and one opening for the door.
Gerry

>  Geodesic_Class-I_3v_Methods_1_&_K.skp
> 122KViewDownload
>
>  Geodesic_Class-I_3v_Methods_1_&_K.png
> 84KViewDownload

[TaffGoch]

I've added the Kruschke comparison model to Google's 3D Warehouse, to
make it available to a wider audience.
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=11523bfa33e6123d2137e32e8ebf2b1

-Taff