Skipping FW hub. Time for an overhaul?

[Peter Jourdain]

Greetings --- The FW hub on my Selbach is starting to skip; that is, about every 30 to 50 pedal strokes, there will be a slight "ker-chunk" sound and suddenly I'll be spinning air. After a second or so of this it will go back into gear. But it's quite disconcerting and can be hazardous to maintaining my balance, especially when climbing a hill at slow speed. I know from experience because I once wiped out when my FC close-ratio gear did the same thing whilst climbing a rise the night before Pepin 2010. That's why I showed up Saturday morning for the start bloodied of leg.   The hub shifts pretty much flawlessly, right down to low, but the sporadic (now becoming more regular) skipping continues. My suspicion is that a tooth on an internal gear is broken or starting to round off or something, but I just don't know. My hunch is that there is not an external adjustment "fix" one can make with the trigger and cable tension, and that the hub needs a tear down and rebuild. Am I on target here?  Any brilliant Sturmey doctors with a diagnosis, a cure, and a prognosis?  And am I just too big and "strong" to be regularly riding vintage hub gears? This last question is a bit, curious, since there are many riders among us whom I consider more powerful, but still I wonder since I've got some size and bulk.   Many thanks, in advance, for your wisdom.  Cheerio, Wrongway www.bicyclingbackwards.com "For here is entertainment in excelsis, the sight, the sound and the scent of things....Why cycling for joy is not the most popular passtime on earth is still a mystery to me." ---Frank J. Urry, "SALUTE TO CYCLING"

[Rudi Mayr]

I don't pretend to be a Sturmey Archer expert (that's what we have Mark for), but I have pulled FW's and an FG apart many times, usually because of shifting problems.  I eventually gave up on my FG because of a skipping problem like you describe (I sold it to Dallas with full disclosure). 

A broken tooth is not likely.  The way the sun and planet gears mesh, you'd have to be missing several teeth before you notice any problem; and I've never seen a single broken tooth.  More likely your problem is with the pawls.   In which gear(s) does your hub skip?  There are two sets of pawls --for high gear (H) and low gears (both L and B), and each pawl has its own spring.  Anyway, a simple overhaul, involving cleaning the pawls and their springs, may be all your hub needs.  While you're at it, you should inspect the pawls for anything that looks wrong, and replace any pawls and/or springs that look problematic.  

If you've never overhauled a hub, be of good cheer.  It's one of the most fun things to do with a bicycle, aside from riding it.  No one who enjoys riding a Sturmey Archer geared hub should deny himself this pleasure.  I find it goes well with a glass of scotch, but perhaps that's just me.

Rudi

[Peter Jourdain]

Thanks, Rudi, for the informative response about the pawls being the likely culprits.  Thusfar I've noticed the slipping in 3rd, which is the gear I ride most regularly. But I'll have to go through all the gears and ride them to fully test matters. I do believe it has skipped in other gears, but I'd rather not trust misty memory; I need to go out and test to be certain. Kind regards, Peter

www.bicyclingbackwards.com "For here is entertainment in excelsis, the sight, the sound and the scent of things....Why cycling for joy is not the most popular passtime on earth is still a mystery to me." ---Frank J. Urry, "SALUTE TO CYCLING"

--- On Fri, 10/12/12, Rudi Mayr <rudi...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Rudi Mayr]

Peter, is there any chance you've been delinquent in lubrication?  I'm no role model in this regard, having a tendency to put in too much oil when I first set up the bike, after which I spend months cleaning oil off the back wheel, noting to myself that I mustn't do that again.  After that, I forget to put oil until the thing starts misbehaving.  Could be a little oil and a little exercise will solve your problem.

[Peter Jourdain]

Brilliant question! Come to think of it, after oiling it thoroughly when first built into a wheel, I guess I have been somewhat negligent in that regard. I don't put gobs of miles on that hub, but still....and it's been an extraordinarily dry and hot summer and the bike sat baking in the hot garage for a long time. First things first, I'll try some oil and report back.  Please, will the gods of Sturmey forgive me of my sins? Your 'umble servant, Wrongway

www.bicyclingbackwards.com "For here is entertainment in excelsis, the sight, the sound and the scent of things....Why cycling for joy is not the most popular passtime on earth is still a mystery to me." ---Frank J. Urry, "SALUTE TO CYCLING" --- On Fri, 10/12/12, Rudi Mayr <rudi...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Rudi Mayr <rudi...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Gentleman Cyclist] Skipping FW hub. Time for an overhaul? To: gentlema...@googlegroups.com

--

[Peter Jourdain]

Dear Rudi & Group--- Well, I thoroughly lubricated the hub and rode it approximately nine miles in mixed terrain (mostly flat with a few sharp steep climbs), and put it through its paces multiple times in all four gears.  I noticed the following: 1. The hub instantly spun smoother and more quietly; 2. Strangely, the propensity for it to slip in 3rd gear (my main gear) increased.  Initially, when I started out after the lube, it was skipping not every 30 to 50 turns of the pedals but every three or four! As I cycled through the gears and rode farther, 3rd gear began to settle down (a bit) and started skipping first maybe every 10 turns of the crank, then every 20 or more. So it's back about to where it was before the lube. 3. Despite pedaling each gear hard either on climbs or flats, none of the other gears skipped a jot. Just 3rd.  Does that leave me with a definite case of the pawls? Cheerio, Peter

www.bicyclingbackwards.com "For here is entertainment in excelsis, the sight, the sound and the scent of things....Why cycling for joy is not the most popular passtime on earth is still a mystery to me." ---Frank J. Urry, "SALUTE TO CYCLING"

--- On Fri, 10/12/12, Peter Jourdain <pjou...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Rudi Mayr]

Well, it sounds to me like the high gear pawls are causing the trouble.  Tony Hadland's site used to have the section of the 1956 service manual that listed all the possible problems and all their possible causes, and I can't find this now.  

Given that lubrication changed things, I think it's safe to conclude that the problem was related to lubrication.  But at this point I'd pursue the following course of action:

1.  Wait and see if the oil works its way into the problem area over the next few days.  

2.  Hope Mark reads this thread and offers better advice than mine

3.  Meanwhile, peruse Sheldon Brown's pages on FW hub maintenance.

4.  If #1 and #2 don't work out for you, put your faith in #3 and open it up!

[Peter Jourdain]

Thanks very much, Rudi. Will follow your advice to the letter except that for #4 I'll have somebody else open 'er up. Thanks again for taking the time to help. Best, Peter

www.bicyclingbackwards.com "For here is entertainment in excelsis, the sight, the sound and the scent of things....Why cycling for joy is not the most popular passtime on earth is still a mystery to me." ---Frank J. Urry, "SALUTE TO CYCLING"

--- On Fri, 10/12/12, Rudi Mayr <rudi...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Rudi Mayr <rudi...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Gentleman Cyclist] Skipping FW. Road Test Results. To: gentlema...@googlegroups.com

[Cheesy]

Peter, We can open 'er up here when you pick up your firebom.....er....stove when it's ready. If it needs pawls or springs, I know where a fair quantity of each are stashed.;-)

Mike Bullis
Earl of East Dundee

[Peter Jourdain]

Thanks a million, Mike. Just what the doctor ordered! Best regards, Peter

www.bicyclingbackwards.com "For here is entertainment in excelsis, the sight, the sound and the scent of things....Why cycling for joy is not the most popular passtime on earth is still a mystery to me." ---Frank J. Urry, "SALUTE TO CYCLING"

--- On Fri, 10/12/12, Cheesy <bika...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Cheesy <bika...@gmail.com> Subject: [Gentleman Cyclist] Re: Skipping FW hub. Time for an overhaul? To: gentlema...@googlegroups.com

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[Mark Stonich]

The most likely culprit is the clutch not fully engaging the splines on the inside of the gear ring.  If it was the gear ring pawls, you would have the same problem in 4th.  And bad pawls generally don't act like that. To test this hypothesis adjust the indicator so it is pulled a couple of millimeters more than "Proper adjustment".  Don't ride it in any other gear but 3rd.   Damaged gear ring and clutch are likely and replacing the clutch spring couldn't hurt.  Fortunately these parts are common to all of the usual SA hubs, AW/FW/S5 etc.  

Thanks very much, Rudi. Will follow your advice to the letter except that for #4 I'll have somebody else open 'er up.

BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!

Unlike reading a map or operating a gas stove, this isn't rocket science, .  FWs are so simple and there is so much info available that anyone with a very few tools and the ability to read can overhaul them.  It's a lot less scary and mysterious once you've actually done it. Like making love.

OTOH the FM and a few others can be daunting for the uninitiated.  Like S&M?

And remember, in the unlikely event you do mess up, bring the parts to Mike,  You will at least have saved him the trouble of taking it apart.

Clicking  http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/SA/SA-tips.doc
or
http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/SA/SA-tips.PDF
will download a file with links to everything you need to know as well as a few tips of my own.

Oops!  I see that my links to Hadland's site are now obsolete. 
It's all here now.

The ones you might need are
Fitting and adjustment
Use and maintenance
Fault finding
General dismantling
Individual dismantling
Inspection
General re-assembling
FW wide-ratio 4-speed

I have printed these up, along with any other hubs I'm likely to work on, and have them in a 3 ring binder. 

Take digital photos as you take it apart. especially the stuff on the outside - washers, locknuts,  cog and spacers - so you end up with the same chainline and the wheel stays centered. 
Don't bother removing the dog ring etc. from the axle, unless things are badly gummed up.  The locking washer can only be reused a few times. (I do have spares if needed.)

-- Mark Stonich;
BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
Ph. (612) 824-2372 http://bikesmithdesign.com

[Peter Jourdain]

WOW, GREAT STUFF, MARK. THANKS A MILLION.  INDIVIDUAL REPLIES TO EACH POINT, BELOW, IN ALL CAPS IN GREEN (IF IT COMES THROUGH).  --- On Sat, 10/13/12, Mark Stonich <ma...@bikesmithdesign.com> wrote:

From: Mark Stonich <ma...@bikesmithdesign.com> Subject: Re: [Gentleman Cyclist] Re: Skipping FW hub. Time for an overhaul? To: "Gentleman Cyclist" <gentlema...@googlegroups.com> Date: Saturday, October 13, 2012, 10:44 AM

The most likely culprit is the clutch not fully engaging the splines on the inside of the gear ring.  If it was the gear ring pawls, you would have the same problem in 4th.  And bad pawls generally don't act like that. To test this hypothesis adjust the indicator so it is pulled a couple of millimeters more than "Proper adjustment".  Don't ride it in any other gear but 3rd.   Damaged gear ring and clutch are likely and replacing the clutch spring couldn't hurt.  Fortunately these parts are common to all of the usual SA hubs, AW/FW/S5 etc.

OKAY, WILL CHECK THE ABOVE OUT. MAKES SENSE. I'LL GIVE IT YOUR TEST.  [Peter]

Thanks very much, Rudi. Will follow your advice to the letter except that for #4 I'll have somebody else open 'er up. BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!

NOT THE FIRST TIME I'VE BEEN SO ACCUSED. WENT TO CATHOLIC SCHOOL FOR 13 YEARS.

Unlike reading a map or operating a gas stove, this isn't rocket science, .  FWs are so simple and there is so much info available that anyone with a very few tools and the ability to read can overhaul them.  It's a lot less scary and mysterious once you've actually done it. Like making love.

PROBABLY NOT AS MUCH FUN, THOUGH! I MIGHT GIVE IT A TRY, WITH ADULT SUPERVISION. [Peter]

OTOH the FM and a few others can be daunting for the uninitiated.  Like S&M?

NOT INTO THAT, THOUGH I DID JUST BUY AN ALLOY SHELL FM.  MAYBE I'LL MAIL THE FM TO YOU FOR AN OVERHAUL BEFORE I HAVE IT BUILT INTO A WHEEL. [Peter]

And remember, in the unlikely event you do mess up, bring the parts to Mike,  You will at least have saved him the trouble of taking it apart.

BUT OFTEN WHAT I TAKE APART ENDS UP LIKE HUMPTY-DUMPTY AND "ALL THE KING'S HORSES AND ALL THE KING'S MEN CAN'T PUT IT TOGETHER AGAIN." OKAY, I'LL GIVE IT A SHOT. I GUESS. MAYBE. SEE ME KICKING AND SCREAMING AND CRYING FOR MAMA....[Peter]

Clicking  http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/SA/SA-tips.doc or http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/SA/SA-tips.PDF will download a file with links to everything you need to know as well as a few tips of my own.

LINK DIDN'T WORK. WEB HOSTING SITE CAME UP. BUT WILL TRY DIRECTLY FROM YOUR SITE, BELOW. [Peter]

Oops!  I see that my links to Hadland's site are now obsolete.  It's all here now.

THESE WORK. FAB STUFF, MARK. THANKS! NICE HAVING A STURMEY COOKBOOK. I'LL TRY TO STICK TO THE RECIPES. [Peter]

The ones you might need are Fitting and adjustment Use and maintenance Fault finding General dismantling Individual dismantling Inspection General re-assembling FW wide-ratio 4-speed I have printed these up, along with any other hubs I'm likely to work on, and have them in a 3 ring binder.  Take digital photos as you take it apart. especially the stuff on the outside - washers, locknuts,  cog and spacers - so you end up with the same chainline and the wheel stays centered.  Don't bother removing the dog ring etc. from the axle, unless things are badly gummed up.  The locking washer can only be reused a few times. (I do have spares if needed.)

ABOVE ARE GOOD TIPS, ALL.  WILL DO. CAN'T THANK YOU ENOUGH. AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO STEPPED TO THE FORE. [Peter]

[Mark Stonich]

On 10/13/12 10:14 AM, Peter Jourdain wrote:

OTOH the FM and a few others can be daunting for the uninitiated.  Like S&M?  NOT INTO THAT, THOUGH I DID JUST BUY AN ALLOY SHELL FM.

I'd have thought "50 models of Sturmey" would be a best seller.

Clicking  http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/SA/SA-tips.doc or http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/SA/SA-tips.PDF will download a file with links to everything you need to know as well as a few tips of my own. LINK DIDN'T WORK. WEB HOSTING SITE CAME UP. BUT WILL TRY DIRECTLY FROM YOUR SITE, BELOW. [Peter]

I see the problem. The directory but not the filename are all that's part of the link. Thunderbird has a lot of quirks.
Try
http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/SA/SA-tips.doc
or
http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/SA/SA-tips.pdf