Better sorting of children and spouses
Jim
Children are sorted in birth order, but if a birth date is
unavailable, GEDitCOM should use the baptism or christening date as a
proxy.
Spouses are sorted in marriage order, but if a marriage date is
unavailable, GEDitCOM should use the birthdates of the children and
death dates of the spouses as clues. Often the correct order can be
determined that way.
John Nairn
Adding child birth dates to spouses is a little trickier and a little more ambiguous, because marriage dates and birth dates may differ a lot more than is typical for birth dates and baptisms.
------------
John Nairn
http://www.geditcom.com
Genealogy Software for the Mac
silvia
silvia
John Nairn
If you mean other naming styles, pretty much anything is supported including patronymic surnames. For details, see help information on editing individuals and within that help information of editing names.
On Oct 17, 2010, at 10:23 PM, silvia wrote:
> A comment. Not all families are christians and I wonder if there is a more general term for “naming”.
>
> silvia
>
John Nairn
Jim Burrows
JimB.
Ronald Hellenbrand
Ye olde Geditcom supported the use of localised names for the months.
These dates are not recognised in II, but replaced bij question marks.
When sorting, e.g. children, these dates are put last.
Regards,
Ronald Hellenbrand.
John Nairn
> <ronald.vcf>
John Nairn, Developer
about dates in other dates. It helps tools that look for that
information and helps you remember when things happened.
For example, if a couple known to be married has a child in 1878, you
can enter their marriage date as "BEF 1878". That spouse will then
sort correctly and when looking at the family record, you have a good
idea of when they were married without having to look at the children.
It gets fuzzy if you are not sure they were married or not sure they
were married before the child was born. That can be documented with
"ABT 1878" for marriage date or a note attached to the marriage event.
It is similar for births and baptisms, although you are certain that
someone baptized "22 SEP 1883" was born "BEF 22 SEP 1883"
> > I think GEDitCOM can do a better job of sorting children and spouses.
>
> > Children are sorted in birth order, but if a birth date is
> > unavailable, GEDitCOM should use the baptism or christening date as a
> > proxy.
>
> > Spouses are sorted in marriage order, but if a marriage date is
> > unavailable, GEDitCOM should use the birthdates of the children and
> > death dates of the spouses as clues. Often the correct order can be
> > determined that way.
>
> ------------
Simon Robbins
too. For some things (particularly occupations) I may have several
sources. If I don't find them and enter them in chronological order
then I have to edit the GEDCOM directly in the index window to get
them to display in the right order.
Also a way of changing the order of Multimedia Objects and notes.
Obviously they don't have a date associated with them so perhaps a
small up/down arrow icon next to the link to promote/demote it in the
list.
I know I could write a script to do it myself, find a suitable icon
and change my format to accommodate it, but I try to keep changes to
the standard format to a minimum otherwise I have to rewrite it all
when the default format is updated with other new features, and
anyway, I think other users may find it useful too.
silvia
There are ceremonies in several religions equivalent to that of the christian tradition of christening. Could there me a “generic” name for these?
silvia
On Oct 18, 2010, at 11:17 AM, geditcom-ii-dis...@googlegroups.com wrote:
>
> silvia <silv...@clovermail.net> Oct 17 11:23PM -0600 ^
>
> A comment. Not all families are christians and I wonder if there is a more general term for “naming”.
>
> silvia
>
> On Oct 17, 2010, at 10:33 PM, John Nairn wrote:
>
>
> John Nairn <jo...@geditcom.com> Oct 17 10:48PM -0700 ^
>
> I am not sure what you mean by "naming". A child's name can be anything and is not tied in any way to the parent's names. When you you attach a new child, the attachment list defaults to looking for individuals whose surname matches the father's surname, but you need not select a person with that name. It is just the most common naming convention for children.
>
> If you mean other naming styles, pretty much anything is supported including patronymic surnames. For details, see help information on editing individuals and within that help information of editing names.
>
> On Oct 17, 2010, at 10:23 PM, silvia wrote:
>
> > A comment. Not all families are christians and I wonder if there is a more general term for “naming”.
>
> > silvia
>
> John Nairn
>
> Jim Burrows <br...@eldacur.com> Oct 18 01:57AM -0400 ^
Jim Burrows
int Sep, 1839 (JLB estimate)int 1838 (Age 11 in 1850 Census)int 1840 (Age 19 in 1860 Census)int 1842 (Age 27 in 1870 Census)int 1843 (age 36 in 1880 Census)int Sep, 1843 (per 1900 census)int 1846 (Age 63 in 1910 Census)int 1844 (Age 75 in 1920 Census)
Another good practice in genealogy research is to document inferences
about dates in other dates. It helps tools that look for that
information and helps you remember when things happened.
For example, if a couple known to be married has a child in 1878, you
can enter their marriage date as "BEF 1878". That spouse will then
sort correctly and when looking at the family record, you have a good
idea of when they were married without having to look at the children.
It gets fuzzy if you are not sure they were married or not sure they
were married before the child was born. That can be documented with
"ABT 1878" for marriage date or a note attached to the marriage event.
It is similar for births and baptisms, although you are certain that
someone baptized "22 SEP 1883" was born "BEF 22 SEP 1883"
JimB.
David Scott
Also a way of changing the order of Multimedia Objects and notes.
Obviously they don't have a date associated with them so perhaps a
small up/down arrow icon next to the link to promote/demote it in the
list.
-----
David Scott
07956-589433
(emailed from mobile)
Simon Robbins
There seems to be two issues with month names.
1. Straight translations between say English/French/German where the
calendars are the same and there is a 1:1 relationship between the
month in one language and the month in another. I would have thought
the local language strings in the Format should enable the translation
as they do with all the interface elements. There probably also needs
to be a way of simply entering alternatives in the preferences for
those who wish to record their data in a language which is not
supported by the format.
2. Then there are totally different calendar systems such as Hebrew/
French revolutionary, I'm not sure if there are alternative "local
language" names for their months but if there are, then they should be
handled in the same way with a drop down in the preferences to chose
which calendar you are entering alternatives for.
As for users creating totally different calendars, its difficult to
see how that could work as the application wouldn't have the code to
understand the calendar and perform calculations or sort dates
properly.
Not sure if people mean they want to use more than one set of month
names in the same file or more than one calendar, I think GEDitCOM II
already supports the latter. Just because I might find an ancestor
born in a foreign country doesn't mean I want to record the date in
the local language. I would have thought most people would use their
own language for recording dates, although might want to use different
calendars where appropriate.
Just be grateful I'm not asking for the Chinese calendar to be
included in the application for my wife's family history. Some years
have more months than others, and although there are 'official' names
for them there are numerous alternatives for most. I also believe
there is no mathematical, computer programable way of converting from
it to a western calendar other than having a massive look up table.
Whilst on the subject of dates and sorting it would be useful to have
a way of entering something in the preferences for when the switch was
made from Julian to Gregorian calendar. What days were missing and
when new year was.
In Britain the calendars switched in 1752 and the 3 September to 13
September inclusive didn't exist. Before that date 25th March was the
first day of the year. This data is needed to sort events and
calculate periods correctly. Some one could be born on the 25/3/1700
and die on 24/3/1700 and actually they were nearly a year old. Other
countries had different dates although America was the same I think.
But then, of course, you were all British then as well, ho ho.
Having opened that can of worms, I'll go to bed.
Swanfoth
and occupation.
Up to now I have edited the GEDCOM code directly with cutting and
pasting the RESI and OCCU tags in correct sequence, but that should
not be necessary in a decent application for non-technical people.
As research usually goes backwards in time the data ends up in reverse
order unless sorted afterwards.
Many farm hands had more than dozen residences and employers in the
old days and they form an essential part of their life story that can
be documented by direct source links to existing archives.
Here's a localized example:
http://ristovir.fidisk.fi/lehen/Records/INDIs/II12.html
John Nairn, Developer
etc. will be sorted by entered dates.
See Tree->Sort->Events menu command
Stéphane LELAURE
> John,
>
> There seems to be two issues with month names.
>
> 1. Straight translations between say English/French/German where the
> calendars are the same and there is a 1:1 relationship between the
> month in one language and the month in another. I would have thought
> the local language strings in the Format should enable the translation
> as they do with all the interface elements. There probably also needs
> to be a way of simply entering alternatives in the preferences for
> those who wish to record their data in a language which is not
> supported by the format.
I agree.
>
> 2. Then there are totally different calendar systems such as Hebrew/
> French revolutionary, I'm not sure if there are alternative "local
> language" names for their months but if there are, then they should be
> handled in the same way with a drop down in the preferences to chose
> which calendar you are entering alternatives for.
The alternatives you mean may be the same month names although written in a
different alphabet or with different abbreviations, for instance. I agree
with you on that point.
> As for users creating totally different calendars, its difficult to
> see how that could work as the application wouldn't have the code to
> understand the calendar and perform calculations or sort dates
> properly.
I don't follow you here. I can't see why this should be impossible. I'm not
a programmer but I think it shouldn't be impossible to convert one date into
another, and it isn't impossible to make a computer understand that "Vt"
means "Ventôse" (or "VENT" in Gedcom-speak).
If you wish to have examples of possible calendar conversions, have a look
at:
http://emr.cs.iit.edu/home/reingold/calendar-book/Calendrica.html
(The Java app doesn't seem to be working on my computer though. Perhaps a
Java problem.)
As far as I can guess, both GEDitCOM and GEDitCOM II can sort dates
properly, even if those dates are shown in different calendars. In my
genealogy I have siblings with birth dates in both the Gregorian and French
republic calendars and they can be easily sorted.
>
> Not sure if people mean they want to use more than one set of month
> names in the same file or more than one calendar, I think GEDitCOM II
> already supports the latter. Just because I might find an ancestor
> born in a foreign country doesn't mean I want to record the date in
> the local language.
As a French user, here's what I want:
1) to be able to enter dates in any format (both GEDitCOM and GEDitCOM II
are quite good at that).
2) GEDitCOM I/II to record dates in Gedcom lingo but display them in French
instead of the Gedcom abbreviations. (When I tried that once, GEDitCOM I
made a mess at that ‹ perhaps my fault? ‹ so I haven't tried it since.)
3) GEDitCOM II to display/print abbreviated months when there's not much
space: "FEB" should be "février" (with a lowercase f) or "fév." or "févr."
or whatever I want. "VENT" should be "Ventôse" (with a capital V) or "Vent."
or "Vt"... ", "COMP" would be printed "Jour complémentaire" or "J.c."
(instead of ugly "JOUR_COMPLEMENTAIRS" ‹ Call GEDCOM an international
norm...), etc.
> I would have thought most people would use their
> own language for recording dates, although might want to use different
> calendars where appropriate.
>
> Just be grateful I'm not asking for the Chinese calendar to be
> included in the application for my wife's family history. Some years
> have more months than others, and although there are 'official' names
> for them there are numerous alternatives for most. I also believe
> there is no mathematical, computer programable way of converting from
> it to a western calendar other than having a massive look up table.
>
> Whilst on the subject of dates and sorting it would be useful to have
> a way of entering something in the preferences for when the switch was
> made from Julian to Gregorian calendar. What days were missing and
> when new year was.
>
> In Britain the calendars switched in 1752 and the 3 September to 13
> September inclusive didn't exist. Before that date 25th March was the
> first day of the year. This data is needed to sort events and
> calculate periods correctly. Some one could be born on the 25/3/1700
> and die on 24/3/1700 and actually they were nearly a year old. Other
> countries had different dates although America was the same I think.
> But then, of course, you were all British then as well, ho ho.
>
I reckon this might be a bit difficult to do. In most of France the switch
between the Julian and Gregorian calendars occured in 1582, except in Alsace
in 1648, in Lorraine in 1760. Add to that the different switch dates in
Germany and imagine what a brain-teaser it must be for someone having
ancestors from these different countries/regions. Entering one switch date
in the preferences might do the trick for most people, but not for
everybody.
> Having opened that can of worms, I'll go to bed.
--
Stéphane LELAURE
Ronald Hellenbrand
> le 20/10/10 0:44, Simon Robbins � simon....@talktalk.net a �crit :
>
>> John,
>>
>> There seems to be two issues with month names.
>>
>> 1. Straight translations between say English/French/German where the
>> calendars are the same and there is a 1:1 relationship between the
>> month in one language and the month in another. I would have thought
>> the local language strings in the Format should enable the translation
>> as they do with all the interface elements. There probably also needs
>> to be a way of simply entering alternatives in the preferences for
>> those who wish to record their data in a language which is not
>> supported by the format.
>
> I agree.
>
That's what I tried to convey in my first message: Localised dates,
entered in the old Geditcom, are not recognised properly when imported
into II. Instead, they're replaced by a question mark, and always put
last when sorted.
IMHO, dates should be stored internally as yyyymmdd; Easy sorting and
can be exchanged to other apps.
Leave it to the user how (s)he wants dates to be displayed, and make
this conversion when dates are displayed/printed.
Ronald
John Nairn
>
> That's what I tried to convey in my first message: Localised dates,
> entered in the old Geditcom, are not recognised properly when imported
> into II. Instead, they're replaced by a question mark, and always put
> last when sorted.
>
> IMHO, dates should be stored internally as yyyymmdd; Easy sorting and
> can be exchanged to other apps.
>
> Leave it to the user how (s)he wants dates to be displayed, and make
> this conversion when dates are displayed/printed.
>
> Ronald
They are always stored internally in the GEDCOM format, which is not yyyymmdd, but is a specific format. The user can select how to display dates (within limits of current options) through the editing preferences. To solve exchanging data with other apps, a script could be written to export dates in any style you need (such as yyyymmdd).
Regarding question marks on dates from old GEDitCOM. When GEDitCOM II reads a file, it does not interpret the dates. Thus all text in date fields are imported intact regardless of content and never converted to question marks. I suspect you mean a question shows up in the index window and thus does not sort well in that window? That would be because it cannot interpret the date correctly, but if you open the record, you will see the date text from the original file is still there and is intact.
My understanding is that old GEDitCOM and GEDitCOM II are using the same date code (it is rewritten in GEDitCOM II, but logically the same). Thus I would not expect any dates to get misinterpreted between old GEDitCOM and GEDItCOM II (there are some minor differences). Do you have an example of a date that does not translate and are you sure the date from GEDitCOM was actually entered in GEDitCOM and not a date imported from some other software? Like GEDitCOM II, old GEDItCOM would keep bad dates intact and never delete them or change them to question marks.
------------
John Nairn