Genre Document

[Tony Rose]

Attached is the report produced by the genre committee.  I know that Lionel is current out of touch so I won't make any formal motion about accepting this report and implementing it at this time.  This will give you all a chance to read it and reflect on it before we begin discussing it in detail.

I am available to answer questions regarding the report, and Jim Van Dore, serving de facto as the committee chair and as the author of the final document, will also be happy to respond.




tony

[Merlin Haas]

I hate to nit-pick, but could you make your attachments in .pdf form,
like Don did with his? Not everyone can open .docx attachments (or
if they can, some lose things like page breaks.)

thanks -- Merlin Haas

[Lionel English]

I'll be home tomorrow.

Lionel English
lio...@beanmar.net

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[Merlin Haas]

Thanks to Jim Van Dore, here's the Genre Document in pdf format.

best -- Merlin Haas

[Donald Dale Milne]

I've been following the discussion on Main and am pleased to see
that so far, there is no serious disagreement from the members at
large. I also don't have any. I believe the document as submitted can
be used on our wiki as rules, as it has sufficient explanation and
examples. I particularly like the use of "see also" lists in the
document, to indicate genres that are appropriate for use with each of
the 4 "primary" genres (though the committee did not establish
primacy). The listing of example keywords is also helpful.

I think it was wise to define anthropomorphic as "characters acting
like humans" instead of "animals acting like humans", because it covers
normally inanimate objects. Overall, many stories can fit more than one
genre, which gives good latitude to indexers and should be relatively
easier to follow than a larger number of stricter definitions. I'm glad
to see the addition of Fashion and Math & Science, as I always had
trouble assigning genres to such stories from our current list. The
only genre eliminated that I foresee some problem with is
Political/Propaganda, as I'm not sure such stories will always fit in
one of the possible replacement genres.

It looks good enough to me that I hereby MOVE to approve the new
Genre List as submitted by the committee, and make this list with its
explanations and examples our new Genre List to be followed when indexing.

- Don Milne

[Lionel English]

Motion recognized. Is there a second?

Lionel English
lio...@beanmar.net

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[Merlin Haas]

>Motion recognized. Is there a second?
>
>Lionel English

><mailto:lio...@beanmar.net>lio...@beanmar.net

I second it.

-- Merlin Haas

>
>On Apr 16, 2012 7:20 PM, "Donald Dale Milne"

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[Lionel English]

Second recognized. Discussion?

Lionel English
lio...@beanmar.net

On Apr 16, 2012 8:20 PM, "Merlin Haas" <mvh...@elpaso.net> wrote:

Motion recognized. Is there a second?

Lionel English

<mailto:lio...@beanmar.net>lion...@beanmar.net

I second it.

-- Merlin Haas

On Apr 16, 2012 7:20 PM, "Donald Dale Milne" <<mailto:dond...@att.net>dondmi...@att.net> wrote:

  I've been following the discussion on Main and am pleased to see that so far, there is no serious disagreement from the members at large.  I also don't have any.  I believe the document as submitted can be used on our wiki as rules, as it has sufficient explanation and examples.  I particularly like the use of "see also" lists in the document, to indicate genres that are appropriate for use with each of the 4 "primary" genres (though the committee did not establish primacy).  The listing of example keywords is also helpful.

  I think it was wise to define anthropomorphic as "characters acting like humans" instead of "animals acting like humans", because it covers normally inanimate objects.  Overall, many stories can fit more than one genre, which gives good latitude to indexers and should be relatively easier to follow than a larger number of stricter definitions.  I'm glad to see the addition of Fashion and Math & Science, as I always had trouble assigning genres to such stories from our current list.  The only genre eliminated that I foresee some problem with is Political/Propaganda, as I'm not sure such stories will always fit in one of the possible replacement genres.

  It looks good enough to me that I hereby MOVE to approve the new Genre List as submitted by the committee, and make this list with its explanations and examples our new Genre List to be followed when indexing.

- Don Milne



On 4/13/2012 12:26 PM, Merlin Haas wrote:

Thanks to Jim Van Dore, here's the  Genre Document in pdf format.

best -- Merlin Haas


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[Donald Dale Milne]

I'll just note a couple of things at the moment. The main
objections I've seen in the member discussion have been about the manga
genres, the elimination of period, and the change of funny animals to
anthropomorphic. It appears that complaints and good follow-up
arguments are from no more than 3 members per subject, and sometimes only 1.

- Don Milne

On 4/16/2012 11:23 PM, Lionel English wrote:
>
> Second recognized. Discussion?
>
> Lionel English

> lio...@beanmar.net <mailto:lio...@beanmar.net>

>
> On Apr 16, 2012 8:20 PM, "Merlin Haas" <mvh...@elpaso.net

> <mailto:mvh...@elpaso.net>> wrote:
>
> Motion recognized. Is there a second?
>
> Lionel English
> <mailto:lio...@beanmar.net

> <mailto:lio...@beanmar.net>>lio...@beanmar.net
> <mailto:lio...@beanmar.net>

>
>
> I second it.
>
> -- Merlin Haas
>
>
> On Apr 16, 2012 7:20 PM, "Donald Dale Milne"
> <<mailto:dond...@att.net

> <mailto:dond...@att.net>>dond...@att.net

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[Tony Rose]

With the exception of "superhero," those are the ones that got the most discussion in the committee, as well, I think.

I've listened with keen interest to the debate on main but I haven't been won over on any of them.  "Period" is where the argument has come closest to being something that changes my mind, but in the end, I think that just the genre "historical" is almost meaningless, though Jochen feels that it has some worth.

The manga genres have bugged me from the beginning.  If there was an answer to the question "What is manga?" then I might have a different opinion.  What are the manhwa genres, by the way?  And what is the Chinese word for "manga" -- I forget?  Do they have indigenous comics in Southeast Asia?  Is manhwa -- in any material way other than language -- different from manga?  And, ultimately, what about comics done in other languages by creators from other countries that are working in manga styles, in the manga genres?  I pose these mostly as rhetorical questions, hoping that it will stimulate us to think about the true nature of genre, which I do not, ultimately believe will differ from culture to culture.  I think that the Big Four (comedy, drama, adventure, non-fiction)(maybe Five as I still don't know what to do with porn/erotica) cover all story-telling and from there on it's a matter of just narrowing things down to terms that give the search results we want to see.  And "country = Japan" and "genre =  romance" gets those boys in love with boys and woman in love with salary men stories just as well as it would get them using the Japanese names for those specific genres.  We're not going to use girl-on-girl romance for "Strangers in Paradise," are we?

I stand by the committee's decision on manga.  It's not that the solutions are difficult, it is that they are Gordian knots.

I'm gonna post most of the long paragraph above on main.




tony

---

From: "Donald Dale Milne" <dond...@att.net>
To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 6:59:30 AM
Subject: Re: [gcd-board] MOTION: Genre Document

[Lionel English]

If the reprint migration finishes later today, then when I can log in to the site again I'll review and clean up the board agenda and I think I'll ask Lou to call for a vote on this.

 

I realize the discussion on main hasn't quite petered out, but I share Don's impression that despite some expressed concerns over individual items, there doesn't appear to be any evidence so far that there's a huge clamor to change any specific item in the document.  And as I stated on main, we can always agitate for individual changes on the policy list.

Lionel English

San Diego, CA
lio...@beanmar.net

[Daniel Nauschuetz]

The committee came up with some base assumptions and some recommendations that we may want to separate from the general Genre vote.

Paragraph 1: There is a technical requirement that we will limit data-entry for the Genre field.  We need to make sure we call this out, agree to it, and create a tech ticket.  Might this move to the Policy Board?

Paragraph 3: The committee recommends that we use keyword counts to to add new genre's to the official list.  To make this happen, we need to have a committee (or the Board) establish some basic guidelines.  How often is the keyword list monitored?  Who decides when a keyword is considered for addition to the "official" list?  I don't want to answer those questions now, but it seems clear to me that we will need to set something up to make this recommendation happen.

Paragraph 3: The biggest issue that needs to be resolved is defining "qualification as a genre"?  That seems to be one of the biggest bones of contention: what exactly IS a genre?  What exactly qualifies?  If we agree to make a process above reality, we will need to follow up with this phrase.

Paragraph 4: There is second technical requirement that might need to go through the Policy Board: creating an additional field for publisher supplied target age designation.

I am still reading through the rest of the document, but I doubt I'll have much to add with them.

Daniel

---

From: Lionel English <lio...@beanmar.net>
To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 12:51 PM

[Lionel English]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 5:12 PM, Daniel Nauschuetz <nausc...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The committee came up with some base assumptions and some recommendations that we may want to separate from the general Genre vote.

Paragraph 1: There is a technical requirement that we will limit data-entry for the Genre field.  We need to make sure we call this out, agree to it, and create a tech ticket.  Might this move to the Policy Board?

We *could* punt it, but I don't see any reason to.  I'd read it more as a strong recommendation than a requirement.  But yes, we (or the policy list) would need to file a tech ticket.

 

Paragraph 3: The committee recommends that we use keyword counts to to add new genre's to the official list.  To make this happen, we need to have a committee (or the Board) establish some basic guidelines.  How often is the keyword list monitored?  Who decides when a keyword is considered for addition to the "official" list?  I don't want to answer those questions now, but it seems clear to me that we will need to set something up to make this recommendation happen.

Keywords are being introduced with the current code-migration, so we don't have any yet to monitor.  But yes, good questions.  Additionally, if we adopt the recommendation to limit the genre list to items that are in the list (i.e. we eliminate the write-in option), then we need to come to some agreement about what to do with all the items currently in the field that aren't in the list we approve--do we have those migrated to the keyword field?  Do we "convert" any of them to new equivalents?  We'll have to review the keyword field in a few months to  see how it's shaking out.

 

Paragraph 3: The biggest issue that needs to be resolved is defining "qualification as a genre"?  That seems to be one of the biggest bones of contention: what exactly IS a genre?  What exactly qualifies?  If we agree to make a process above reality, we will need to follow up with this phrase.

I don't want to steal Tony's thunder here, as he, not I, was the co-chair of the committee.  But I believe the committee tried to make a distinction between marketing categories that were actual genres vs those that were more, shall we say, demographic oriented.  Genres are categories based on storytelling tropes; they often have an expected setting, certain character archetypes, particular directions or elements that are normally followed or encountered prior to the resolution of the story.

A Jungle story, as an example, typically involves a caucasion American or European "noble savage" character of exceptional strength and agility who lives in a tropical rain forest and protects its inhabitants from exploitation by evil hunters, poachers or other exploiters.  Lost civilizations are also common themes in Jungle stories.

An All Ages, Adult, Underground, or Girls story, on the other hand, tells you something about the intended audience, but doesn't tell you what kind of story elements you're likely to find in your story.  It may indicate Tone, but not Content.

 

Paragraph 4: There is second technical requirement that might need to go through the Policy Board: creating an additional field for publisher supplied target age designation.

Again, I don't personally feel we need to punt this.  Though I do agree that it might be best to vote on each of the areas you've highlighted separately, and encourage someone to amend the original motion to that effect.  I personally would also like for the proposed new field to record *any* explicit demographic designation, rather than just target age (i.e. I think it should also include gender categories if present, and age/gender combinations, such as "boys" or "girls").

[Alexandros Diamantidis]

* Lionel English [2012-04-20 18:55]:

> Additionally, if we adopt the recommendation to limit the genre list
> to items that are in the list (i.e. we eliminate the write-in option),
> then we need to come to some agreement about what to do with all the
> items currently in the field that aren't in the list we approve--do we
> have those migrated to the keyword field? Do we "convert" any of them
> to new equivalents? We'll have to review the keyword field in a few
> months to see how it's shaking out.

I think what makes most sense is to do both: convert any old genres that
clearly correspond to any of the new ones, *and* move everything that's
not kept as a genre to the keywords, including the converted ones. They
would be more specific in most cases, so we can't drop them without
losing information.

> An All Ages, Adult, Underground, or Girls story, on the other hand, tells
> you something about the intended audience, but doesn't tell you what kind
> of story elements you're likely to find in your story. It may indicate
> Tone, but not Content.

Especially if you consider comics from outside the US mainstream - in
particular, girls' comics from the UK or Japan can easily belong to
such genres such as horror, crime or science fiction...

> > Paragraph 4: There is second technical requirement that might need to go
> > through the Policy Board: creating an additional field for publisher
> > supplied target age designation.
>

> I personally would also like for the proposed new field to record
> *any* explicit demographic designation, rather than just target age
> (i.e. I think it should also include gender categories if present, and
> age/gender combinations, such as "boys" or "girls").

Although, if we limit this to explicit demographic designations, there
is a problem with the manga classifications: If I'm not mistaken, the
shoujo/shounen etc. labels often don't appear on the books themselves,
but you can determine them from the weekly anthology the collected
story originally appeared. "Adults only" labels are of course always
explicit when appropriate. On the other hand, I haven't seen many manga
collections, so my impression here might be wrong.

Alexandros

[Lionel English]

Everyone--there's a motion on the table to adopt the genre committee's
recommendations "as is". Does anyone feed the need to break it down
and vote on the individual recommendations as Alexandros has
suggested? If so, please make a motion to amend to that effect in the
next couple of days. Otherwise, I'll ask Lou to set up a ballot to
vote on the whole thing as is.

Also, be aware that either way we do it, there are a few follow ups
items that will need to be addressed after the vote(s) as noted in the
conversation to date.

[Alexandros Diamantidis]

* Lionel English [2012-04-22 21:43]:

> Everyone--there's a motion on the table to adopt the genre committee's
> recommendations "as is". Does anyone feed the need to break it down
> and vote on the individual recommendations as Alexandros has
> suggested?
>

> Also, be aware that either way we do it, there are a few follow ups
> items that will need to be addressed after the vote(s) as noted in the
> conversation to date.

I'd actually prefer to vote on adopting the document "as is", since the
items that need to be addressed cover a small part of the genres. No
need to redo the committee's work!

Alexandros

[Daniel]

I move that we amend the MOTION as follows:
1) The Board accept the report for the record
2) The Board will forward to the Policy List the recommendation to limit genre selection to an "official" list
3) The Board will forward to the Policy List the recommendation to add a new age-appropriateness field.
4) The Board will forward to the Policy List the deferred item of genre inclusion to all sequence types
5) The Board will ask the Genre Committee to reconvene in order to define the qualifications of a genre
6) The Board will vote on accepting the Genres as defined by the Genre Committee

Alexandros Diamantidis <ad...@hellug.gr> wrote:

[Donald Dale Milne]

Since there is already a motion on the floor regarding the
document, and it has been seconded, I believe we need to either amend
that motion or vote on it before we can entertain a new motion on the
same subject.

By way of amendment, Tony mentioned on Main that he would amend to
change "Anthropomorphic" to "Funny Animals-Anthropomorphic." Do you
still intend that, Tony?

- Don Milne

[Lionel English]

I think Daniel's motion does constitute an amendment. I will
recognize it as such. Does anyone wish to second Daniel's approach?

If it is not seconded, we will proceed with the original motion. If
it is seconded, we will then need to vote on whether the amended
motion supercedes the original motion, or whether the majority would
prefer to vote on the original motion. We would then vote on the
contents of the winning version of the motion, unless there are
further motions to amend.

If Tony wishes to propose the amendment Don suggested, then I'll play
it by ear :-) If both Don and Daniel were to consider such a motion
friendly to their respective motions, then I'd suggest we consider
each of their motions so modified.

[Tony Rose]

I plan to wait and see if Daniel's motion comes to a vote and the result of said vote.  I do think that some of what Daniel is suggesting probably needs to occur in some form or another and I'd like to amend the "anthropo-funny animal" thing.  We need to deal with Daniel's motion first.  And it needs a second before there is any point in discussing it further.




tony

---

From: "Lionel English" <lio...@beanmar.net>
To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 11:41:52 AM

Subject: Re: [gcd-board] MOTION: Genre Document

[Daniel Nauschuetz]

It has been over 24 hours since I made my motion, and there has been no second.  I will withdraw my motion to allow us to move forward.

 

I should've spoke up sooner, but my motion was not an amendment to the original motion.  It is a new motion on how to deal with the report as a whole.  The current motion proposed by Don only deals with item number 6 (acceptance of the Genre list).  My motion was designed to "officially" accept the report on a procedural level, record and deal with the recommendations proposed by the committee, ask the committee to perform one more task AND vote to accept the Genre list.  I could've left item number 6 off since it is being dealt with.

 

It is my opinion that the Board is under no obligation to accept a report from a committee.  They are accepted more often than not, but in every parlamentary proceeding I've been at, we've had to accept the report into the record.  In this case, I actually considered moving NOT to accept it based on an omission that will eventually bite us in the near future.  I realized that the report answered the task given them and hoped that we would ask the committee to revisit the question of defining the qualification.

 

'Nuff said from me.  I withdraw my motion and will move on.

 

Daniel 

 

 

From: Tony Rose <tonyr...@comcast.net>
To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: [gcd-board] MOTION: Genre Document

I plan to wait and see if Daniel's motion comes to a vote and the result of said vote.  I do think that some of what Daniel is suggesting probably needs to occur in some form or another and I'd like to amend the "anthropo-funny animal" thing.  We need to deal with Daniel's motion first.  And it needs a second before there is any point in discussing it further.




tony

[Donald Dale Milne]

Yes, this was on purpose on my part. I prefer to deal with one
thing at a time and let it rise or fall on it's own merits. I hate to
see laws or motions that bundle items together, such as our Congress
does, so that you can find something to vote for even when you're
against something else (or vice versa). I expect to deal with the other
recommendations of the Genre Committee separately (I believe there were 2).

- Don Milne

[Daniel Nauschuetz]

We are coming up on three weeks since I withdrew my motion.  What is the status on the Genre Document?  What are we going to do about the recommendations?  

Daniel

---

From: Tony Rose <tonyr...@comcast.net>
To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 12:52 PM

[Lionel English]

Lou, let's put up a ballot for Don's motion (third paragraph).  There's an open agenda item for the genre committee.

 

I'll try to review the agenda this evening.

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[Alexandros Diamantidis]

* Lionel English [2012-05-14 15:59]:

> Lou, let's put up a ballot for Don's motion (third paragraph). There's an
> open agenda item for the genre committee.

If Don's motion passes and the Genre document is accepted, it shouldn't
be a problem if we then submit a series of motions either to fine-tune
specific points raised during the discussion or ask the genre committee
for opinions on those points, right? A series of independent motions
should be best, since they can run in parallel independently.

[Lionel English]

Yes.  And as noted earlier in the thread, Don's motion specifically address just the recommended genre list, it doesn't address the other points raised in the document.  Each of which should be addressed and resolved in some fashion.

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[Merlin Haas]

>Yes. And as noted earlier in the thread, Don's motion specifically
>address just the recommended genre list, it doesn't address the
>other points raised in the document. Each of which should be
>addressed and resolved in some fashion.

Do we approve the list as submitted and let the policy list work out
the more controversial points or is this something that the Board has
to handle? I assumed that the Board either accepted or rejected the
document as a whole.

-- Merlin Haas

>
>On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Alexandros Diamantidis
><<mailto:ad...@hellug.gr>ad...@hellug.gr> wrote:
>
>* Lionel English [2012-05-14 15:59]:
>
> > Lou, let's put up a ballot for Don's motion (third paragraph). There's an
>> open agenda item for the genre committee.
>
>If Don's motion passes and the Genre document is accepted, it shouldn't
>be a problem if we then submit a series of motions either to fine-tune
>specific points raised during the discussion or ask the genre committee
>for opinions on those points, right? A series of independent motions
>should be best, since they can run in parallel independently.
>
>--

>Lionel English
>San Diego, CA

><mailto:lio...@beanmar.net>lio...@beanmar.net

[Lionel English]

The motion on the table is to accept the genre list presented in the document.  So that would be an up or down on the list as presented.  We are then free to allow the policy list to make specific changes through their normal processes.

 

There is more to the genre document than just the revised genre list, and I think the board should address the other points raised.  They may decide to kick some points over to the policy list, but i don't think we can just hope the policy list addresses each of those points at some point in time, the board should explicitly decide to approve, reject, or delegate each of the remaining points of the document.  IMO.

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Merlin Haas <mvh...@elpaso.net> wrote:

Yes.  And as noted earlier in the thread, Don's motion specifically address just the recommended genre list, it doesn't address the other points raised in the document.  Each of which should be addressed and resolved in some fashion.

Do we approve the list as submitted and let the policy list work out the more controversial points or is this something that the Board has to handle?  I assumed that the Board either accepted or rejected the document as a whole.

-- Merlin Haas

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Alexandros Diamantidis <<mailto:ad...@hellug.gr>adia@hellug.gr> wrote:

* Lionel English [2012-05-14 15:59]:

 > Lou, let's put up a ballot for Don's motion (third paragraph).  There's an

 open agenda item for the genre committee.

If Don's motion passes and the Genre document is accepted, it shouldn't
be a problem if we then submit a series of motions either to fine-tune
specific points raised during the discussion or ask the genre committee
for opinions on those points, right? A series of independent motions
should be best, since they can run in parallel independently.

--

Lionel English
San Diego, CA

<mailto:lio...@beanmar.net>lion...@beanmar.net

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[Lou Mazzella]

I will get this ballot out tomorrow evening. -Lou Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android

---

From: Lionel English <lio...@beanmar.net>;

To: <gcd-...@googlegroups.com>;

Subject: Re: [gcd-board] MOTION: Genre Document

Sent: Tue, May 15, 2012 9:10:34 PM

Yes.  And as noted earlier in the thread, Don's motion specifically address just the recommended genre list, it doesn't address the other points raised in the document.  Each of which should be addressed and resolved in some fashion.

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Alexandros Diamantidis <ad...@hellug.gr> wrote:

* Lionel English [2012-05-14 15:59]: > Lou, let's put up a ballot for Don's motion (third paragraph).  There's an > open agenda item for the genre committee. If Don's motion passes and the Genre document is accepted, it shouldn't be a problem if we then submit a series of motions either to fine-tune specific points raised during the discussion or ask the genre committee for opinions on those points, right? A series of independent motions should be best, since they can run in parallel independently.

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[Tony Rose]

We can amend it as we please.  I will strongly resist letting the policy group tinker with it until it has been used for a while.




tony

---

From: "Merlin Haas" <mvh...@elpaso.net>
To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 5:36:08 PM

Subject: Re: [gcd-board] MOTION: Genre Document

[R Bottorff]

I got done recently reading the responses to the genre list when it was released in April and I must say, boy had I seen all that before. Three times before to be exact.   I find myself in the thought that it wasn't broke don't fix it. I would have rather we added genres instead of wholesale change and deleting, especially since some of them had strong negative feedback.   I expect to be on the minority side on this one, but I voted no. Interesting to see how it shakes out.   my best -Ray --- On Thu, 5/17/12, Tony Rose <tonyr...@comcast.net> wrote:

[Lionel English]

Another reminder:  While we've voted to adopt the revised genre list, there are other recommendations in the report we haven't dealt with.

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Merlin Haas <mvh...@elpaso.net> wrote:

Thanks to Jim Van Dore, here's the  Genre Document in pdf format.

best -- Merlin Haas

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[Daniel]

Yes, i was shot down if i recall, so i shall wait to hear from the wiser members.

Daniel

Lionel English <lio...@beanmar.net> wrote:

>Another reminder: While we've voted to adopt the revised genre list, there
>are other recommendations in the report we haven't dealt with.
>
>On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Merlin Haas <mvh...@elpaso.net> wrote:
>
>> Thanks to Jim Van Dore, here's the Genre Document in pdf format.
>>
>> best -- Merlin Haas
>>
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>>
>
>
>
>--
>Lionel English
>San Diego, CA
>lio...@beanmar.net
>

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[Donald Dale Milne]

I have them flagged and intend to bring them up as I get a chance.

- Don

On 6/4/2012 7:59 PM, Lionel English wrote:
> Another reminder: While we've voted to adopt the revised genre list,
> there are other recommendations in the report we haven't dealt with.
>
> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Merlin Haas <mvh...@elpaso.net
> <mailto:mvh...@elpaso.net>> wrote:
>
> Thanks to Jim Van Dore, here's the Genre Document in pdf format.
>
> best -- Merlin Haas
>
> --
> GCD-Board mailing list - gcd-...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:gcd-...@googlegroups.com>

> To unsubscribe send email to

> gcd-board+...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:gcd-board%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

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> http://groups.google.com/group/gcd-board
>
>
>
>
> --
> Lionel English
> San Diego, CA

> lio...@beanmar.net <mailto:lio...@beanmar.net>

>
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