Gaming Newbie

[Lisa]

Hello All,

Well I’m glad that I’m finally ready to interact with the G4C blog
community. My name is Lisa and I’d like to start by thanking the group
for being there for each other in this gaming process. I have limited
experience in the gaming industry yet I have an educational video game
idea. I have reviewed the G4C tool kit but I still have a few
questions before I begin this very exciting process. I have prepared
a proposal that includes the game characteristics, etc., but what’s
next and what’s the order of the production process for gaming?

1. How do I protect my idea?

2. Do I approach a sponsor(s) for funding with a proposal or do I need
a prototype of the game?

3. Will a detailed proposal suffice when I approach a video game
company/designer? If not what’s required?
a. Will the game designer help prepare the budget based on the game
idea?
b. Is there cost associated with consulting with a game designer/
company?

I hope that I’ve included enough information to receive a response.
I’d like to protect my game idea before I feel comfortable about
saying more. At this point I’m working alone and look forward to
receiving any direction from the group.

Thanks ;- )
Lisa
PollyAnna Dreams Productions

[Allan Shore]

Hey Lisa -- Speaking for myself and others who try to make a living in this field doing much of what you ask, the answer is YES you need all of what you say. While it is always possible to have someone design something without paying them for their skills, this is my major area of concern because, as a consultant, people always assume we'll do work on the promise that the client's NEXT GREAT IDEA will be the one to solve the world's problems and they promise to pay for our talents when money comes in later. The fact is that funding decisions are not clean and funders often make decisions without regard to the quality of the idea, proposal package, etc. So even good work goes totally unrewarded. No matter who you work with I think it is very important to broach the compensation discussion up front and do what you can to pay for their worth. Project designer, grant or proposal writers, etc. (like me) do suffer a lot because of this problem and, as such, are often not around when good projects evolve. Otherwise, do put your best food forward, gear it toward STEM, and start asking away for support. Allan --- On Tue, 10/26/10, Lisa <bcreat...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Reid Kimball]

Hi Lisa,

If you are in the US, all ideas are copyrighted by the author when
they are written down on paper. You can file for copyright protection
if you want to make it more official and registered with a government
agency.

http://www.copyright.gov/

You are best to approach small companies or individuals for funding
rather than large publishers, like EA, Ubisoft, Activision, etc
because they won't even talk to a designer unless they are world
renown or from Hollywood.

An experienced game designer can help prepare a budget, but it is more
in the domain of a producer's role. Take a look at these two articles
on budgeting.
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/KimberlyUnger/20090518/1353/Basic_Game_Budgeting_for_NEWBS_Part_One.php
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/KimberlyUnger/20090526/1522/Game_Budgeting_for_Newbs_Part_Two.php

There's always a cost when work is involved, :)

Good luck.

Reid Bryant Kimball
Game Design Consultant - http://game.rbkdesign.com/
Documentary Filmmaker - http://crohnsend.com/

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[Luana Lewis]

Cautionary note... I'm no lawyer, but I worked in publishing long ago.  Last I knew ideas could not be copyrighted – the reason why is obvious.  Only the manifestation of an idea, when fixed in a perceptible or tangible form: an example might be an artistic expression of some kind, including writing.  There are helpful books about copyright laws, and they get updated all the time, check out a recent-issue reference on this.  Entertainment law had many grey areas in the past… probably still does, because technology evolves so quickly.

 

So you may want to be selective when you share ideas.

 

Luana

[Ben Rolfe]

Welcome Lisa,

On the issue of copyright, my (admittedly feeble) understanding is that copyright protects authorship, not invention - the expression of an idea, not the idea itself. While it does protect against use of a work in derivative works, I don't think that would extend to the production of a game based on the expression of an idea. A patent would probably not be appropriate either, in my (even more feeble) understanding, as things like formulae and rulesets are generally excluded from patentability (besides, patents are usually prohibitively expensive).

Once a game idea gets to the prototype stage, it may be better protected. The prototype itself, as an original work, would be automatically protected by copyright law, and a game based on the prototype would be more obviously a derivative work. A prototype would also be patentable (provided it was suitably novel) which may provide some protection of the underlying ideas.

Which is a bit rough, really. Seems that the best course of action is just to talk to people who you think you can trust. :)

This is just my understanding, based on other people's interpretations of law (and there are regional differences). I'll sit down and shut up now, but am happy to stand, corrected.

Ben Rolfe
University of the Sunshine Coast
Mobile: 0401 947 366
Lab of Awesome: 07 5459 4773

-----Original Message-----
From: gamesfo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:gamesfo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Reid Kimball
Sent: Wednesday, 27 October 2010 8:22 AM
To: Lisa
Cc: Games for Change
Subject: Re: [G4C] Gaming Newbie

[Richard Canfield]

Hello Lisa,

Everyone here is talking about limiting your share of an idea. As Ben mentioned, there's a difference between an idea and the expression of idea. Along with this, there's a difference between the execution of an idea. You absolutely have to share your ideas with those you want to help you, especially investors if you're limited in funding. Everyone has ideas and someone else most likely has a similar idea. The difference is being the one that knows how to execute the idea. You have to prove the ability to make it happen or get someone on your team that can. . 

It's most definitely a given that you need a prototype of the game when you're just starting out, you have to demonstrate previous work or a sample of the work to be developed. This requires a creative team, which you will have to pay at some point. You need to at least afford a "down payment" on the prototype. This may very well be the most important step of the game. 

If you have a game designer on your team, they can help with the budget, but it's still something that you will need to have an understanding about. Publishers invest in teams that know how to handle their finances exactly. You have to be truthful about the numbers and honest when you're not certain about something. You can't predict the future so you have to give best estimates. 

If you're asking a professional game designer or company to help determine your financial and creative success, then yes you will have to pay for their professional consultation. You get what you pay for. We're talking about hard analysis and facts which require time. 

It's a little different for each project and depends on the scale or scope of the game. Keep in mind that payment is necessary to get things done.

Also consider that if you're not willing to share your ideas with a team, then the team would not be able to share their own creativity with you. 

Richard J. Canfield 

Kindform

[Allan Shore]

My few nods to the copy protection issues ... what you are really interested in is receiving credit for and being able to cash-in on your version of the next best mouse trap. All you have to do is put it down on paper and, in theory, it is yours. But what it's about is PROVING you own it and staying on top of no one else stealing it. Copy your work to a disk or flash drive and mail it to yourself or your attorney or whomever will take care of it when it is ready. It would be date stamped and marked. This is the next best thing to wasting time actually filing the paperwork and paying the cost. You do own it once it is "written" someplace. I prefer using the Creative Commons approach where you freely give others the right to use your stuff but you retain controlled ownership. Mark everything accordingly and in this day and age you're probably as best protected as you can be. Then again I'm an Open Source kind of Avatar! Good luck Allan --- On Tue, 10/26/10, Richard Canfield <ri...@kindform.com> wrote:

From: Richard Canfield <ri...@kindform.com> Subject: Re: [G4C] Gaming Newbie

[Skip]

Hi,

I've always found the books by 'Nolo' press to be really good for these
kinds of things. I've done trademark and patent applications using them.

BTW, I'm not sure there is much of a commercial market in this space. You
may find it to be a far harder realm to penetrate than you think it will be.
(I know I certainly did.) Mainstream education has a lot of demands on it,
and a lot of tools already at its disposal. Getting overworked / underpaid
teachers to experiment with a new thing can be a bit of a battle. Getting
their bosses to pay for things, even more so.

I guess if there was much of a commercial market the big game makers would
be here, but I don't think they are. So you might want to ask yourself, "Do
I want to change the world, or do I want to make money?" You may not be able
to do both.

I don't mean to be a downer. But we create a free tool, and are still
working on getting it adopted broadly. It will be eventually, I am sure. But
if a free / open source tool requires year of investment and slaving away,
I'm not sure how commercial ventures survive. (I guess that is why I decided
not to play on that ball field.)

But your project may be very, very important to do. There is no business
case for Wikipedia, and only a paper thin one for YouTube: Which doesn't
mean that they should not have been done. But just that looking at
traditional revenue streams may not be the right place to start.

Best,
Skip

Hello All,

--

[Steve Anderson]

Dear Lisa-

I'm struck by your statement that you are uncomfortable sharing your idea with this group. I have heard similar things in other contexts recently, surprisingly coming from some of my graduate and undergraduate students and wanted to comment on this in general terms. 

I think it is worth thinking clearly about the consequences within a community of sharing vs. not sharing ideas. In the commercial realm, it is probably reasonable to expect the worst -- this is why we have ham-fisted systems such as copyright, digital rights management and the DMCA. A number of the responses to your message have suggested ways to import these conventions into the G4C community. I suppose that this would indeed prevent someone from stealing your idea, commercializing it and cutting you out of the profits, or at least they would give your lawyers ammunition to use in court when you sue for copyright infringement. Unless this is really your concern, I would instead propose a thought exercise to explore possible "worst-case scenarios" if we were to treat the G4C community as a shared, collective space for exploring and developing ideas at all stages.

Worst case #1

You mention an idea on the G4C list; someone takes it and makes exactly the game you were intending and they do so before your game can get off the ground. Perhaps the game will have the very impact you wanted to achieve, which is not all bad; or it will fail without taking up any of your time or resources. Everyone in the community will know what happened and the "stealer" will be regarded with suspicion thereafter. 

Worst case #2

Someone takes your idea and tries to make a game out of it but botches the job; in this case, you can go on to make the game you originally envisioned, with the benefit of learning from their mistakes. The stealer will thereafter be regarded as both untrustworthy *and* incompetent. 

Worst case #3

Your idea is not exactly "stolen" but it sparks a creative impulse in someone else, who makes a related project with significant variations, perhaps applying it to a different social issue or context. Again, your idea has brought something good to the world; you are free to go ahead and make your game, having learned from, or perhaps even collaborating with, those who made the other project. In this case, it is worth asking whether your current idea is really 100% original. Surely the best ideas sometimes build on the creativity of others; perhaps your idea was made possible precisely because someone else decided to share their own thinking with you or the world. 

Worst case #4

Your idea circulates through the G4C community, you receive suggestions for improvement, references to related projects and ideas for collaborators; the original idea evolves and becomes stronger and more achievable; you make connections with others of like mind and G4C becomes an even more dynamic, creative space. In this case, you no longer feel total ownership and control of your original idea; it is no longer "intellectual property," but it has become one among many parts of a community that shares certain goals and values. 

In any case, participating in such a community improves the chances that your current idea will not be the last one (good or bad) that you ever have and certainly it increases the likelihood that both your idea and the community will get better. For me, the question comes down to what kind of creative communities I want to be a part of. I come to G4C to find a community of creative, socially conscious people who care about issues and the potentials of games to make a difference in the world. Such a community is enriched when ideas are shared freely and openly and it is greatly impoverished, even poisoned, when ideas are held back or treated as property to be either protected or stolen. 

Ideas are cheap and they should be plentiful; making great games that make a difference takes a whole community. 

-Steve

[Allan Shore]

Very true Steve. Which is what the Creative Commons is all about. I was serious in suggesting you check it out if you aren't familiar with it. It IS what is going to happen across the digital divide as too many ideas chase too few dollars. But love your passion, Steve. This is why I started my version of a service to balance the teeter-totter of social responsibility to weigh more on the side of the good. Allan --- On Wed, 10/27/10, Steve Anderson <sfan...@usc.edu> wrote:

If you are in the US , all ideas are copyrighted by the author when

[Allan Shore]

I agree with Skip. And it has always been the case that getting money for even the best of the best of the best of ideas is difficult. I've been struggling with this for years, so what is happening with the massive wave of interest in games (particularly STEM games) is not unusual. The government and funders push these ideas to get action started without providing good amounts of money to make them happen well. Silly way to run a world! But people do make it through. Allan --- On Wed, 10/27/10, Skip <m...@skipcole.com> wrote:

gamesforchange+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/gamesforchange?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Games for Change" group. To post to this group, send email to gamesfo...@googlegroups.com.

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[Laz Fuentes]

Hi Skip.

 

Thought I would chime in given that you hit on some things that I have spent time thinking about.

 

I believe that you can make money AND change the world. What you have to decide is if you are going to be a purist or academic that will go directly at the issue that you are taking on, or if you decide to package it in a more popular format and get your message across more subtly.

 

How does the Mary Poppins song go? “A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down.” I believe that this is sound advice.

 

I find that often that too many projects are stubbornly purist and choose to go head on with the message and ultimately reach fewer and fewer audiences.

 

Worst yet, they receive acclaim from foundations and academic institutions hailing them as genius and showering them with funds for taking on the particular issue, but again, it reaches relatively few people – particularly for all of the money that is usually spent.

 

I believe that you can achieve the objective – whatever it is – if you package it well. By packaging I mean delivering your game in a way that the target market relates to, be it game mechanics, technological platform, artistic direction, or all three.

 

We are doing this with our games to get important ideas across about self improvement,  the environment, the importance of political participation, personal healthcare and more to groups that may not have as strong an interest if we do not package the issues in ways they find entertaining.

 

So to anyone out there making games, don’t think that changing the world and making money are mutually exclusive concepts. You can do both, but you have to make it fun and you have to know how to market yourself. It’s not as hard as you may think to get your product known… if it’s fu and good. Above all, decide early if you want to impress your colleagues, or to impress upon as big of an audience as possible the subject issue.

 

Just a thought…

 

Best,

 

Lázaro Fuentes

CEO

Hip Venture Company, Inc.

917-822-1917 mobile

212-722-7227 office

facebook.com/lazarofuentes

linkedin.com/in/lazarofuentes

twitter.com/laz

 

From: gamesfo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:gamesfo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Skip
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 1:00 PM
To: 'Lisa'; 'Games for Change'
Subject: RE: [G4C] Gaming Newbie

 

Hi,

---

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1152 / Virus Database: 424/3222 - Release Date: 10/27/10

[Mary Wharmby]

Hi Lisa,

I think you've been getting some great advice from people on this board: Develop your idea as much
as possible and get it out there for others to see (the sooner the better).

I was in a situation very similar to yours several years ago. I had a game idea but no resources and
not all the skills I needed to develop the idea on my own. At that point it was important for me to
decide what role I wanted to take in the project. I personally wanted to be the content and creative
lead. So, the strategy I chose was to learn the other skills I needed (coding) to develop the game to a
point where I was able to pitch a completed prototype. I entered an MFA program to do it. It took me
over two years and I spent gobs of personal money on the endeavor.

So far its been worth it - the extra training I got has opened up many other opportunities for me. But
as far as my game, I can tell you that even with a completely functioning portion of the game (which
has won several awards), it is still very hard to get doors to open in the business and nonprofit
sector.

I'm not trying to discourage you at all - just prepare you for what you may be in for. I personally
think that in addition to a great idea and hard work, there is a huge luck factor driving all this. Unless
you know someone, or someone who knows someone in the area you want to pitch to, it can come
down to cold calling organizations and trying to get a meeting. Sometimes this works.

Before you go much further, I would recommend you ask yourself some questions:

What role do you want to play in this (sell the idea, develop the idea yourself, hire someone else to
develop, etc)?

What do you want to get out of it? Financial gain or some other form or reward?

Is there an existing commercial or educational market for your product? How hard or easy is it to
penetrate that market?

Who do you imagine will use your game and who would want to fund it? What is their funding
process?

Do you have any personal or professional connections which you can leverage to help open doors and
get your idea heard and seen? If not, how can you develop those sorts of connections?

In the end, besides having a really good idea, it will all depend on how much you want this to
happen, how much of your life you are willing to devote to it, and how persistent you can be. If you
are really into doing it, it will most likely be very worth it but not necessarily in the way you think it
will now.

Good luck!

Regards,

Mary Wharmby
UX / Interaction Design & Development
mwha...@inch.com
www.riverbedgame.com

On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 11:24:58 -0700 (PDT), Lisa wrote
> Hello All,
>
> Well [WINDOWS-1252?]I锟絤 glad that [WINDOWS-1252?]I锟絤 finally ready to interact with the G4C
blog
> community. My name is Lisa and [WINDOWS-1252?]I锟絛 like to start by thanking the

> group for being there for each other in this gaming process. I have limited
> experience in the gaming industry yet I have an educational video
> game idea. I have reviewed the G4C tool kit but I still have a few
> questions before I begin this very exciting process. I have
> prepared a proposal that includes the game characteristics, etc.,

> but [WINDOWS-1252?]what锟絪 next and [WINDOWS-1252?]what锟絪 the order of the production

process for gaming?
>
> 1. How do I protect my idea?
>
> 2. Do I approach a sponsor(s) for funding with a proposal or do I
> need a prototype of the game?
>
> 3. Will a detailed proposal suffice when I approach a video game

> company/designer? If not [WINDOWS-1252?]what锟絪 required?

> a. Will the game designer help prepare the budget based on the game
> idea?
> b. Is there cost associated with consulting with a game designer/
> company?
>

> I hope that [WINDOWS-1252?]I锟絭e included enough information to receive a response.
> [WINDOWS-1252?]I锟絛 like to protect my game idea before I feel comfortable about
> saying more. At this point [WINDOWS-1252?]I锟絤 working alone and look forward to

> receiving any direction from the group.
>
> Thanks ;- )
> Lisa
> PollyAnna Dreams Productions
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Games for Change" group. To post to this group, send email
> to gamesfo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group,
> send email to gamesforchang...@googlegroups.com. For more
> options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/gamesforchange?hl=en.

--
@@@USER@@@
Internet Channel -- inch.com

[Winston Wolff]

I second Steve's opinions on the risk of sharing good ideas. There are so many good ideas, especially on this list, but so few of them are made. The limiting factors are not the idea, but the money, time and energy to work on the idea, and then the marketing effort to spread the word.

Winston Wolff
Stratolab - Games for Learning
tel: (646) 827-2242
web: www.stratolab.com

[Mary Wharmby]

I agree too. Games are too complex and difficult to do alone. Also, since games are meant to be
played with and used, successful development requires constant feedback, testing and revision. The
sooner you can put together even a rudimentary walkthrough or paper prototype and start play
testing, the better. Collaboration can feel like a risk at first but its a necessary step in the
development process.

Mary

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 10:52:21 -0700, Winston Wolff wrote

not be copyrighted [WINDOWS-1252?]� the reason why is obvious. Only the manifestation of an idea,

when fixed in a perceptible or tangible form: an example might be an artistic expression of some
kind, including writing. There are helpful books about copyright laws, and they get updated all the
time, check out a recent-issue reference on this. Entertainment law had many grey areas in the

[WINDOWS-1252?]past� probably still does, because technology evolves so quickly.

> >> > Well [WINDOWS-1252?]I�m glad that [WINDOWS-1252?]I�m finally ready to interact with the
G4C blog
> >> > community. My name is Lisa and [WINDOWS-1252?]I�d like to start by thanking the group

> >> > for being there for each other in this gaming process. I have limited
> >> > experience in the gaming industry yet I have an educational video game
> >> > idea. I have reviewed the G4C tool kit but I still have a few
> >> > questions before I begin this very exciting process. I have prepared

> >> > a proposal that includes the game characteristics, etc., but [WINDOWS-1252?]what�s
> >> > next and [WINDOWS-1252?]what�s the order of the production process for gaming?

> >> >
> >> > 1. How do I protect my idea?
> >> >
> >> > 2. Do I approach a sponsor(s) for funding with a proposal or do I need
> >> > a prototype of the game?
> >> >
> >> > 3. Will a detailed proposal suffice when I approach a video game

> >> > company/designer? If not [WINDOWS-1252?]what�s required?

> >> > a. Will the game designer help prepare the budget based on the game
> >> > idea?
> >> > b. Is there cost associated with consulting with a game designer/
> >> > company?
> >> >

> >> > I hope that [WINDOWS-1252?]I�ve included enough information to receive a response.
> >> > [WINDOWS-1252?]I�d like to protect my game idea before I feel comfortable about
> >> > saying more. At this point [WINDOWS-1252?]I�m working alone and look forward to

[Lisa Carter]

All -
Wow...thanks for all of the good advice and the documents/links sent
to guide me. Thanks Mary W and others for remembering that we all had
to start somewhere. I am very passionate about this video game idea
and I don’t expect to seek advice or service without paying for it.
Integrity is something taught in the game so I must stand beside it.
Your comments motivated me and I’m ready to execute…thanks David.
I’ll create the BUZZ, start working on a prototype, once I consult
with a designer, and bring a grant writer on board ASAP. No… I don’t
have a coin, but I’m willing to pay out-of-pocket to move the process
forward. I do have a few friends in the entertainment industry that I
plan to reach out to. I’m more interested in saving lives than
receiving monetary rewards…$$$ follows good deeds and the desire to
give back.

You guys are the BEST and I’ll be back soon.

Gaming Newbie,
Lisa
PollyAnna Dreams Productions

>> Well [WINDOWS-1252?]I’m glad that [WINDOWS-1252?]I’m finally ready to interact with the G4C
> blog
>> community. My name is Lisa and [WINDOWS-1252?]I’d like to start by thanking the

>> group for being there for each other in this gaming process. I have limited
>> experience in the gaming industry yet I have an educational video
>> game idea. I have reviewed the G4C tool kit but I still have a few
>> questions before I begin this very exciting process.  I have
>> prepared a proposal that includes the game characteristics, etc.,

>>  but [WINDOWS-1252?]what’s next and [WINDOWS-1252?]what’s the order of the production

> process for gaming?
>>
>> 1.    How do I protect my idea?
>>
>> 2.    Do I approach a sponsor(s) for funding with a proposal or do I
>> need a prototype of the game?
>>
>> 3.    Will a detailed proposal suffice when I approach a video game

>> company/designer? If not [WINDOWS-1252?]what’s required?

>> a.    Will the game designer help prepare the budget based on the game
>> idea?
>> b.    Is there cost associated with consulting with a game designer/
>> company?
>>

>> I hope that [WINDOWS-1252?]I’ve included enough information to receive a response.
>> [WINDOWS-1252?]I’d like to protect my game idea before I feel comfortable about
>> saying more.  At this point [WINDOWS-1252?]I’m working alone and look forward to

[Kam Star]

Totally with you Steve, 

In 24 years of making games, I can honestly say that if one really does have a unique idea that they think is the next big thing, it probably isn't! And if it really really really is the next big thing, then it only gets copied when it becomes a success & starts making money. 

Unfortunately non of the big ideas we think of are that unique or new, they're probably most likely a new way of putting existing ideas together,  and most of big idea successes where already being done by other people. Google wasn't the first search engine, Microsoft wasn't the first operating system, iPhone wasn't the first touch screen phone - granted each had an incremental or situational advantage or they were managed better than what had gone before, but non were 'that' original, as to say nothing like it existed before.  

Kam Star BA(Hons) MA (Arch) APM
Managing Director

PlayGen Ltd
35 Kingsland Road, Shoreditch, London, E2 8AA
Serious Games Institute, Cheetah Road, Coventry, CV1 2TL
Tel :  +44 (0)20 7749 3783     Mobile : +44 (0)7950 4000 65

web : http://www.playgen.com
linkedIn : http://www.linkedin.com/in/kamstar

Information contained in this e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only, and is confidential and may be the subject of Legal Professional Privilege. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or use of this communication without prior permission of the addressee is strictly prohibited.

[Allan Shore]

Very true, Kam. And what can be done or should be done regarding the "social" or responsible elements of serious gaming is not new either. Those of us who have worked for years, nay I say decades, in these fields believe that in a just world their efforts and accomplishments would be rewarded as gaming technology unfolds too. Usually that isn't the case either. I really appreciate that everyone speaks openly about these subjects. Perhaps together we can all contribute to inventing a new and better universe, even if at this point it is just the avatars that get to live in it! Allan --- On Thu, 10/28/10, Kam Star <k...@playgen.com> wrote:

From: Kam Star <k...@playgen.com> Subject: Re: [G4C] Gaming Newbie | on sharing ideas and community