Well I'll be...!

[Sean FitzGerald]

Someone actually gets it!

"A 24-hour school with no traditional classrooms and where students use mobile phones and laptops to learn is being built in Sydney."

E-volution of schools - Technology - smh.com.au

Parish-based learning community breaks the mould

And yes, I know there's curriculum, coercion and a whole bunch of things that aren't in line with some of the more extreme ideas some of us hold about the future of education, but it's a step in the right direction... one that recognises where technology is taking us and how young people actually want to learn.

Sean

-- 

Sean FitzGerald
Tel: +61 (0)2 9360 3291
Mob: +61 (0)404 130 342
Skype: seamusy
Second Life: Sean McDunnough
Email: se...@tig.com.au
Website: http://seanfitz.wikispaces.com/

To attain excellence, you must care more than others
think is wise, risk more than others think is safe,
dream more than others think is practical.
-- F. Rhodes

[Stephen Downes]

I don't know why you would call those ideas 'extreme'.

Anyhow:

The traditional classroom concept will disappear, replaced by "learning spaces". The school will be referred to as a "learning community" and teachers will be known as "learning advisers", Mr Whitby said. "The walls of a classroom become redundant because students are able to access real-time, any-time learning."

Definitely a step in the right direction.

Also:

Mr Whitby said this vision could not be realised without harnessing the Information Communications Technology (ICT) capabilities emerging through Web 2.0 developments. 'Web 2.0 is the second generation of Internet-based services that allows for greater sharing of information and networking,' he said. 'Tools like blogs, podcasts, wikis and the like mean that we can access information and collaborate anytime, anywhere.'

Right. This is what we have been saying.

Even if they have coercion and curriculum now, this can't hold for long.

-- Stephen

-- 

Stephen Downes  ~  Research Officer  ~  National Research Council Canada
http://www.downes.ca  ~  ste...@downes.ca         __\|/__ Free Learning

--

[Sean FitzGerald]

Stephen Downes wrote:

I don't know why you would call those ideas 'extreme'.

As in... considered 'out there' and radical by other people... not by some of us.  :-)

Sean

-- 

Sean FitzGerald
Tel: +61 (0)2 9360 3291
Mob: +61 (0)404 130 342
Skype: seamusy
Second Life: Sean McDunnough
Email: se...@tig.com.au
Website: http://seanfitz.wikispaces.com/

Focus on opportunities rather than problems. Problem solving
prevents damage but exploiting opportunities produces results.
Exploit change as an opportunity, and don't view it as a threat.
-- Peter F. Drucker

[Leigh Blackall]

Sean! Can you make contact and see if you can draw someone in for a TALO discussion/group interview. This is outstanding!

--

--
Leigh Blackall
+6421736539
skype - leigh_blackall
http://leighblackall.wikispaces.org/

[Sean FitzGerald]

Not my cup of tea... I'm getting out of elearning remember! :-) (although stories like this one do fill me with the sense of hope and that maybe someone's been paying attention!)

Perhaps someone else would like to chase it up.

Sean

We live in a moment of history where change is
so speeded up that we begin to see the present
only when it is already disappearing.
-- RD Laing

[Leonard Low]

This is a really brave move... but I have posed some questions on my
blog
(http://mlearning.edublogs.org/2006/10/10/the-worlds-first-m-school/)
that we should probably reflect on - is the technology, pedagogy, and
policy surrounding m-learning and e-learning mature enough for this?
Are kindergarten students mature enough for this?

Although I pose these questions, I'm very optimistic - Greg Whitby
has an excellent track record as an innovator, educator and leader, and
this looks like a very promising venture!

[rgrozdanic]

The only thing I don't like about these conversations is the slightly sanctimonious tone that can sometimes creep into them - the "oh - they *finally* got it" type of thing. As if we're so clever that we would know exactly how to run whole education systems given the chance.  I really hope I'm not offending anyone here, but the hubris I sometimes sense (and possibly it's just me being a bit sensitive to it or even imagining it) makes me nervous, mainly cos any kind of zealotry makes me nervous. Surely we're chipping at the edges here rather than baldly claiming any kind of omniscience?

Personally I haven't seen any evidence that all or even a majority of young people prefer to learn via computer, nor have I seen evidence that computer based learning is more effective than other forms of learning per se. It might be true, it might not and, like studies of pornography/violence in movies/pick your issue, it's easy to find plenty of evidence for either side of any question. Surely the interesting bit is exploring the question (and contributing to the research) rather than making the assumption or talking in absolutes? Especially if computer enabled learning is our own preference and therefore easy to project onto all learners? Otherwise how can we, hand on heart, promote these things publicly and expect to be taken seriously?

I also read the article yesterday and thought it wonderful. And it would be great to have the headmaster talk with us about it because we could then draw out all the various issues and challenges and expectations etc. It will be especially interesting to see what sorts of outcomes (whoops - there's a naughty word for you) they'll achieve once one can rule out the Hawthorne Effect etc and we really start to see whether it addresses the sorts of learning challenges the kids they're targetting are experiencing.

I feel similarly about the group/network conversation but haven't been able to put my thoughts into words just yet.

hope this makes sense, let's get that headmaster into a skypecast soon.

r

[Teemu Leinonen]

Stephen Downes kirjoitti 9.10.2006 kello 20:03:
> Mr Whitby said this vision could not be realised without harnessing
> the Information Communications Technology (ICT) capabilities
> emerging through Web 2.0 developments. 'Web 2.0 is the second
> generation of Internet-based services that allows for greater
> sharing of information and networking,' he said. 'Tools like blogs,
> podcasts, wikis and the like mean that we can access information
> and collaborate anytime, anywhere.'
>
> Right. This is what we have been saying.

This is a bit like claiming that "traveling" was not possible before
the fast trains, such as the TGV. For me the revolutionary technology
is the web - not the web 2.0. Same way in traveling the revolutionary
technology was the train - not the TGV.

Of course it is great if people see the light under the brand of "web
2.0", but still, we should more think about the process of learning
and less the tools and the widgets used in it.

And if we do we may actually find out that we still need "teachers"
who are committed to help the development of their students, "group"
that are creating culture and maybe even "schools" that will be the
places for all this. :-)

- Teemu

-----------------------------------------------
Teemu Leinonen
http://www.uiah.fi/~tleinone/
+358 50 351 6796
Media Lab
http://mlab.uiah.fi
University of Art and Design Helsinki
-----------------------------------------------

[Nichols, Mark]

This might be a further step in that direction, though still within the institutional framework: http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/10/05/as_world_changes_so_may_harvard/

 

In part: …future course requirements should connect scholarship with ``what you are going to be like and what the world is going to be like when you get out of college," said Louis Menand, an English professor and task force cochairman; `At least [the proposal] is attempting to give us a range of what seems important, so we won't just take Alexander [the Great], Dinosaurs, Cosmic Connections, and Magic of Numbers," said junior Olivia Brown, referring to well-known core courses; ``No general education should be timeless," he said. ``There's no question it's a response to the world we live in now."

 

Interesting to read this so closely with the creation of the Harvard Law class in Second Life. Times, they are a changin’… Bob Dylan may yet be right for education, too.

 

Mark.

 

---

From: futureof...@googlegroups.com [mailto:futureof...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Downes
Sent: Tuesday, 10 October 2006 6:04 a.m.
To: futureof...@googlegroups.com
Subject: ::FLNW:: Re: Well I'll be...!

I don't know why you would call those ideas 'extreme'.

Anyhow:

The traditional classroom concept will disappear, replaced by "learning spaces". The school will be referred to as a "learning community" and teachers will be known as "learning advisers", Mr Whitby said. "The walls of a classroom become redundant because students are able to access real-time, any-time learning."

Definitely a step in the right direction.

Also:

Mr Whitby said this vision could not be realised without harnessing the Information Communications Technology (ICT) capabilities emerging through Web 2.0 developments. 'Web 2.0 is the second generation of Internet-based services that allows for greater sharing of information and networking,' he said. 'Tools like blogs, podcasts, wikis and the like mean that we can access information and collaborate anytime, anywhere.'

Right. This is what we have been saying.

Even if they have coercion and curriculum now, this can't hold for long.

-- Stephen

Sean FitzGerald wrote:

Someone actually gets it!

"A 24-hour school with no traditional classrooms and where students use mobile phones and laptops to learn is being built in Sydney."

E-volution of schools - Technology - smh.com.au

Parish-based learning community breaks the mould

And yes, I know there's curriculum, coercion and a whole bunch of things that aren't in line with some of the more extreme ideas some of us hold about the future of education, but it's a step in the right direction... one that recognises where technology is taking us and how young people actually want to learn.

Sean

-- 

Sean FitzGerald

Tel: +61 (0)2 9360 3291

Mob: +61 (0)404 130 342

Skype: seamusy

Second Life: Sean McDunnough

Email: se...@tig.com.au

Website: http://seanfitz.wikispaces.com/

To attain excellence, you must care more than others

[alexanderhayes]

Great quote but isnt this the sort of thing that we used to drop into
TALO regularly ?

I totally get the article and the ideas just wondering if we are
splitting conversations and why.

I do like the quote and information....just a thought thats all. I read
somewhere in this thread Sean that you were getting out of e-learning ?

How so ? It would be a shame to see the reserve of your talents
channeled elsewhere however we all have that choice......I still dont
get why.

I'm looking forward to seeing you in SL at the Elearning06 showcase
soon with Jo and team meanwhile

:-)

Alex Hayes

[leighb...@gmail.com]

Oi! I got an interview with Greg Whitby who was pictured and quoted in
that Sydney Morning Herald article about the 24hr school.

http://blip.tv/file/88216

[alexanderhayes]

Awesome. I need his contact details as the moblog.co.uk crew are also
seeking his presence in the UK.

It's old news but at last someone's standing up with a CEO title and
saying enough is enough.

Goes to show that it's going to occur from the outside in. Perhaps in
ten years we might see some traction in the public Mcsector.

More connected learning principles being explored at
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/elearning06

[Michael Coghlan]

Far out Leigh! What else is there to say? Maybe we can clone this guy?

- Michael.

--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/477 - Release Date: 16/10/2006

[Bron]

hey sean
another alternative for education is good as long as students can
choose to go there and aren't forced into what could be a technological
nightmare for some. I talk to lots of students and most of them really
enjoy coming to class and making new friends and building relationships
f2f over the course of their study whether it be 1 year or three. They
can't see how they could build the same relationships and comraderie
online. Teah we may think they are naive and haven't tried it yet BUT

We all saw how powerful the f2f FLNW meeting and roadshow was in
building relationships - you couldn't have achieved that online - even
if it was just getting drunk together - something changes.

These students I mention are people who are pretty Internet web 2
savvy. So I think it may be us who thinks that young people want to
learn with laptops and mobile phones and no classroom NOT the students
themselves.

If we are not careful, we are in danger of becoming as inflexible as
the wooden benches, desks, chalk, blackboard and "strap you for
talking" regime. We will become as bad if not worse than the
well-intentioned white folks in america and Canada who forced the
indigenous people into wooden buildings to learn and wear white folks
clothes and speak only english.
Instead we will make them wear the uniform of the online web 2 brigade
(laptop, mobile phone, Internet) and only speak techno speake. It
bothers me.
Bron :))

[Leigh Blackall]

No one is talking about replacing f2f contact with laptops and internet. What we are talking about is extending, projecting, enhancing our communication with a new form of pen and paper.

Just as the pen and paper enhanced communication, so does digital formats and internet communication. Only to a a degree of 10 billion% or more!

The industrial efficiencies of classrooms and boardroom style meetings are no longer needed in this post industrial era. So lets just go ten pin bowling and talk about everything we have extended here online.

[Barbara Dieu]

"The industrial efficiencies of classrooms and boardroom style meetings are no longer needed in this post industrial era.

Who has decided it? This discourse frightens me, Leigh. It is the industrial efficiency transported to knowledge. How many countries or people live in a post-industrial era? Who says this is the way to go?

One technology replaced by another...the plow... the industry... the computer...Where is the human? We will now be knowledge slaves... who think they are working for a cause on top of it.

Playing the devil's avocate :-)

Bee
--
Barbara Dieu
http://dekita.org
http://beewebhead.net

[Leigh Blackall]

Aren't you a slave already? Doesn't a bell tell you when you can and can't eat, start and stop 'learning'? Doesn't a head teacher tell you how to do your job? and a principle beyond that? and a CEO, politician, and every other power player beyond that? Have you ever had to ask permission to go to the toilet!! How evil is that!!? This is 'industrial efficiency' to me. What does this routine instill in you subconsciously, what does it instill in poor little developing minds? Can you escape this slavery if you have lived most your life in it?

Where is the slavery in going 'bowling' with people (people, not 'students' and certainly NO TEACHERS!) and talking about the stuff you've already discussed through blogs, wikis, conference telephone, and email? (This is what FLNW was - a chance to go bowling WITHOUT 'TEACHERS').

You're saying the slavery is to the device, the technology. I say you are blinded by the technology - looking at the finger that points to the moon. Try to see the moon. Do you think about the pen when you write? Do you think about the keys when you type. I know, I know - some do. They are the ones still learning how to write. Are you the one who can show people the moon, or are you also still only able to see the finger?

[Nichols, Mark]

Hiya Leigh,

Actually, I thought Bee was talking for me in her last post (thanks!) I'd like to step in though, and offer some thoughts (in the hope that you are exaggerating your position!)

Let me start by saying that I am yet to meet a teacher, lecturer or other educator who would tell students that they cannot learn outside the structured learning environment, or even insinuate that informal learning cannot or should not take place.

Second, there is actually considerable scope for teachers to do innovative things - even within structured environments. 'Systems' exist only to ensure a particular level of quality which, I would suggest, is a different matter entirely. The real issue is that not many teachers or educators make use of the scope that they have. Jane Nicholls, for example (no relation!) is being innovative within the existing paradigm. Very seldom is an academic (in my experience) told how to do their job - or, if they are, they are not pressed into too stringent a mould. And, for the record, I go to the toilet whenever I want to (and I work in a University!)

No teacher or educator would deny a students' freedom to talk with and learn from others outside of the 'formal' learning environment. Speaking personally, I would probably learn far more from a teacher or expert on a topic in a fifty minute lecture (if I was paying attention!) than from a full day of potential serendipity - though the latter is also an important part of the mix. At the conference you recently attended, didn't you learn alot? Was that not a structured learning experience of a sort? Is it not possible that your experience there might also be possible within on-campus courses, given an excellent lecturer and appropriate instructional design?

I fear that when you paint teachers with the same brush you do a tremendous disservice to a professional body of people - not all of whom are slaves, and not all of whom enslave.

Does anyone have a 'good teacher' story they could share? It is those that we should be promoting, rather than trying to tear down a system that has done - and continues to do - society rather a lot of good. I have sympathy for your frustration, but would like to suggest that while you are focussing on the moon you are missing the beauty of the stars beyond.

Cheers,

Mark.

-----Original Message-----
From: futureof...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
Sent: Fri 10/20/2006 2:44 PM
To: futureof...@googlegroups.com
Cc:
Subject: ::FLNW:: Re: Well I'll be...!

[Teemu Leinonen]

Hi all,

Probably it is not a surprise for anyone that I also do not find the
24/7 school necessary that good idea at all.

I think the model of the school is totally based on a modern
corporate culture where the company claims to own all their employees
time: here is a laptop and a phone for us to reach you any moment we
may need you. We expect that you are there always for us. BTW if you
have a dog why don't you take it with you in your office - this way
you are not spending too much time in woods with so bad network
connection.

The hidden curriculum is not too hidden, at all. The school will
train perfect corporate robots. Is this what schools are for?

Leigh: Referring to the pointing the moon metaphor you (and Papert)
are using, I actually find looking at the finger and especially
*whose* finger it is very relevant. The real question is why is this
person pointing the moon?

- Teemu

Barbara Dieu kirjoitti 20.10.2006 kello 4:25:
> One technology replaced by another...the plow... the industry...
> the computer...Where is the human? We will now be knowledge
> slaves... who think they are working for a cause on top of it.

Bron kirjoitti 20.10.2006 kello 1:57:
> If we are not careful, we are in danger of becoming as inflexible as
> the wooden benches, desks, chalk, blackboard and "strap you for
> talking" regime. We will become as bad if not worse than the
> well-intentioned white folks in america and Canada who forced the
> indigenous people into wooden buildings to learn and wear white folks
> clothes and speak only english.
> Instead we will make them wear the uniform of the online web 2 brigade
> (laptop, mobile phone, Internet) and only speak techno speake. It
> bothers me.

-----------------------------------------------

[Barbara Dieu]

"You're saying the slavery is to the device, the technology."

No, not to the device. I meant slavery to the process developed by this particular technology just like you mention..
I agree that it is the routine and lack of  that dehumanizes people. I believe the moment people have pleasure in doing what they do, there is room for creativity, independence and people can survive on what they know or  you are not a slave. It is not the tools or technology that matter but the humanity - the relationships which are made, the deep dialogue, knowledge flow and trust.

Nice article on Technology and Pleasure here
http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue4_2/gisle/

 "This is 'industrial efficiency' to me. What does this routine instill in you subconsciously, what does it instill in poor little developing minds? Can you escape this slavery if you have lived most your life in it?"
 

Now , what you have to consider, and this is what I said I fear..is that ICT stands not only for information and communication technology but it is also the new means of production as were the tools of the early craft workers or the machines of the industrial age of production. So it also introduces a new social order.   Just like machines needed factories,hierarchies and schools to form obedient standard citizens, post industrial societies (mostly Europe, North America and developed countries)  need to train their citizens to perform in this new perspective, where information and services supplant industry and goods.

While in the industrial age the focus was the centre, excluding all from those who were on the edge (artists, intellectuals but also most part of the under-developed countries...the poor little developing minds..lol), in the information age, the focus is distributed networks which work  towards the edge (who will be now excluded or a slave?)
http://blogs.salon.com/0002007/2006/04/02.html

 

Every new era begins with hopes, desires, visions for the future and the dream of creating a new society. Openness, flexibility, creativity and freedom exist at the beginning but the moment you try to reproduce it at large group, it is eventually rationalized (normal), made "efficient" and institutionalized.

Therefore, whatever means of production  -  it did, does and will eventually create a routine which will subsquently instill habits and ways of thinking that may conduce people to  the iron cage - (if I recall from my first year at the uni, a long long time ago)   Max Weber called it a bureaucratization of the process. See: http://www2.pfeiffer.edu/~lridener/DSS/Weber/BUREAU.HTML )

And the vicious circle starts again...how do we revert it and create a virtuous circle? Possible?

Bee

[Bron]

more like " you are missing the moon AND the stars" always looking to
the future and looking for what is better rather than being mindful of
what is good here and now. We are part of an info revolution like it or
not and it is exciting and exhilarating but scary at the same time -
like a great rollercoaster ride.

In the here and now as Bee says "a new social order" is emerging. Now
we are not only slaves to the corporate machine but slaves to the
technology. Slaves to the Grid!

I for one don't feel particularly comfortable that I could be tracked
by everything I do, my blog, my mobile my wikis, every presentation I
have given, any articles I have written etc. but I see these as a smoke
screen in a way as well because THE MACHINE will never really know what
I think or feel and when it really matters they wont be able to find
me.

Has anyone read The Traveller by John Twelve Hawks? That is about this
very thing. I would like to stay "off the grid" and "away from the
surveillance networks of our modern lives" just like the "Harlequins"
had to, so I have to play at being a model "Citizen" to keep up the
smoke screen of normality and be invisible by my visibility.

having GPS devices right at my doorstep so that my home can be located
from a satellite is not my idea of fun. But this is the new social
order - we are able to track people very easy. your cards, your
passport, your every move....yeah we are on data bases everywhere. This
isn't some dope-induced paranoia energing this is the reality of how
our society has changed over the last 50 years. I should know I was
there. Microchipping babies as well as dogs is not really that far away
and in a way we are all contributing to this new social order. We are
fuelling it.

But hey we can dream and think we can change things but in all truth I
think we should just realise that "Girls just wanna have fun" (Cindy
Lauper).
Bron :))

[Leigh Blackall]

Hmmm, thanks Barb, Teemu - now I am chewing some very troubling thoughts. Feeling quite self concious as Teemu takes a good hard look at the person who's finger is pointing at the moon. Now I'm considering the concerns of what the world will look like if indeed this 'revolution' is simply another cycle of the same thing. Reading Weber now, already reads like Papert's School Reform is Impossible.

I'm thinking it is beyond me, or a consideration similar to if or when China and the USA go to war, when global warming disrupts everything we hoped for, or the oil peaks and continents shift.

Or perhaps we are witnessing the bureaucratisation here and now. When I suggest something as seemingly radical as the teacher being a forgettable concept, and point to a school model that may be a half new way - before we have had time to consider them or see it in detail for ourselves, we are drawing back. Fare enough too.

It could be a vicious cycle Barb, I hope it is a virtuous cycle on the rise, but I see little evidence of that anywhere to be honest.