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FUR: Fight against art piracy on wikifur!

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chib...@gmail.com

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Oct 8, 2006, 5:45:06 PM10/8/06
to
Sites like fchan.org that blatantly violate well known
Do-Not-Redistribute art, such as that of
http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Klaus_Dobermann (and links in the article
even re-confirm Klaus' request, which was blatantly violated as
specifically pointed out on the fchan article talk page at
http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Fchan).

I hope artists who value control over their own work will weigh in on
this issue.

Here's an excuse of one:
"BasementCoder: And yes, maybe I do ignore the incredibly petty whims
of artists with overinflated egos."

(BasementCoder is the owner and operator of wtfur.org)

If a pirate site operator doesn't like you, as an person, they feel
they have a right to abuse your creative and intellectual property
rights as they see fit. Wikifur is the best resource the furry fandom
has to establish standards and define terms so those who wonder "where
is the line in violating an artist's wishes" can find an answer. This
is your opportunity to weigh in and let your voice be heard on the
topic of art piracy:

http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Art_piracy

Naiji Torkahan

unread,
Oct 9, 2006, 9:48:29 AM10/9/06
to
This topic has been discused to death, fchan's not goiung to stop.
Everyonne tried for years to stop FXC but to this day they're still
trading art.

chib...@gmail.com

unread,
Oct 9, 2006, 10:40:28 AM10/9/06
to

It won't if you allow their article on wikifur to remain whitewashed.
Its up to you whether or not you value creative and intellectual
property to chime in and help hammer out a definition for "Art piracy"
as it relates to the furry fandom.

Naiji Torkahan

unread,
Oct 10, 2006, 5:55:58 PM10/10/06
to
What good will it do, the furry commune fought years against FXC and
Sibe, While they won against Sibe, but he was 1 pirateer out if the
millions of pirarters.

Eric Adler

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Oct 10, 2006, 6:49:40 PM10/10/06
to


"All evil needs to thrive is for good men to stand by and do nothing."
-Ben Franklin (If I remember right)

As much as I detest sounding like DUH-bya, the struggle against piracy
is one where you can't be neutral, since the attitude of "what good will
it do to fight" is just what the pirates are counting on to continue
unmolested. So do your part, molest a pirate today.

(Um, unles the pirate is underaged, then don't molest then, just tell
their parents what they've been doing.)

Reese Dorrycott

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Oct 10, 2006, 9:54:36 PM10/10/06
to
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:49:40 -0500, Eric Adler
<bavaria...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>"All evil needs to thrive is for good men to stand by and do nothing."
> -Ben Franklin (If I remember right)

Edmund Burke

green...@gmail.com

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Oct 11, 2006, 12:52:38 AM10/11/06
to
> Wikifur is the best resource the furry fandom
> has to establish standards and define terms so those who wonder "where
> is the line in violating an artist's wishes" can find an answer.

Chibabos unfortunately misrepresents the intent of WikiFur, which is
not to establish standards and define terms, but to accurately document
the current and past state of existing standards and terms. We
certainly do not seek to change the course of the fandom through
changing the definitions.

It is not our job to draw lines in the sand - at most, we shouuld tell
our readers where other people's lines have been drawn in the past.
Doing anything else is expressing an opinion, which we should not be
doing in articles.

--
Laurence "GreenReaper" Parry
http://greenreaper.co.uk/ - http://wikifur.com/

chib...@gmail.com

unread,
Oct 11, 2006, 1:08:25 AM10/11/06
to
Yes, clearly I misrepresented wikifur -- and in fact got the whole
concept wrong.

See, I think Wikifur's intent was to be an unbiased central resource
for furry information.

Oh, I'm sorry, did you pee your pants laughing? Yeah, I was that
delusional. I'd buy you a new pair of pants if I had the money.

As it turns out, its to allow groups like CYD to stalk, harrass and
libel private furries and to keep their articles whitewashed to read
like advertisements. The same thing goes for pirate art sites.

If you try to write an article to document different ideas than the
"opt-out" DNP systems in place on a number of pirate sites as a public
shield to give the appearance of giving a damn about artists (which
most artists will tell you is utter b.s., every piece of at they labor
to create is copyrighted under Berne, and a lot of artists take it a
step further by emphasizing with "Do Not Redistribute" type systems).
See, the DNP system has been the only one promoted on Wikifur for
almost a year. The moment I create one to describe DNR and articles
relating to it, it gets slapped with a "speedily delete" mark. I
illegally removed it, shame on me, and that was followed by several
individuals calling for its deletion. They ran the gambit on reasons
for deleting it from falsely claiming (many times over!) it was an
identical copy to Starchaser's Furry Artist InFURmation Page to the
article could "never be complete" (which, hey, is true of every article
on every wiki). Nothing held water, and my pointing this out and
crying foul at the attempts to force wiping out the work I'd done on
the article got me banned.

You see, they don't take kindly to furs who don't go with the stalk and
pirate flow.

Don't try to edit CYD or art piracy articles if you have any intention
of bringing in information that doesn't agree with the
advertisement-style articles that are currently present -- you'll just
get your edits reverted, the articles will be protected and eventually
you'll get banned.

At the same time, don't try protecting your own articles using
Wikifur's supposedly long-standing, long-existing requests for
protection; a wikifur admin will just menace to change the rules so you
can't have that protection.

Yeah, I was fooled ... and you're damned right I'm pissed. Wikifur is
an advertisement in favor of trolls and art pirates, and no one's
allowed to try and change that.

mith...@yahoo.de

unread,
Oct 11, 2006, 8:20:51 AM10/11/06
to
You're an idiot. Greenreaper himself has said that imageboards in his
opinion art pirate sites and that he thinks they should shut down.

green...@gmail.com

unread,
Oct 11, 2006, 10:34:26 AM10/11/06
to
> You're an idiot. Greenreaper himself has said that imageboards in his
> opinion art pirate sites and that he thinks they should shut down.

Indeed. That's my opinion. I just don't want it to become part of an
article just *because* it's my opinion, or that of another editor.

chib...@gmail.com

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Oct 11, 2006, 11:39:42 AM10/11/06
to
Or just because points were raised with reference, and a much-belabored
article was written that explores a different point of view that's in
the process of being vandalized .. errp, nope, not allowed to use that
word to describe it ... wiped and erased with unanimous consent now
that they got the troublemaker who wrote it banned. Flames and ad
hominem attacks on myself, however, continue to gleam from a number of
article talk pages with your blessing; its fine to post utter filth so
long as its against me, but call a wikifur admin on their behavior and
... ban time!

Opinions favorable toward pirates and trolls are fine and dandy and
protected and supported, that generates advertisements made to appear
as articles about such groups, but anything in contradiction is
disallowed. This is the standing procedure, and the mob is having its
way to force this to continue. Even trying to make posts in public
places off Wikifur in a futile attempt to find other members of the
furry community who don't agree the DND is a valid piracy defense is a
bad no-no.

chib...@gmail.com

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Oct 11, 2006, 11:40:28 AM10/11/06
to
Its no one's opinion. Its unanimous -- you certainly didn't post any
disagreement with the wipe-the-article mob on the article talk page --
that DNR should get wiped -- an article with a detailed listing I
worked out ahead of time with you on #wikifur is being moved toward
being vandalized ... oops, I mean wiped out without cause of any
precedence; all the excuses are made up and would apply to many (some
to /all/) wiki articles yet only the DNR list article is singled out to
get wiped. Of course if I tried to wipe out an article I didn't like
without cause, that would be vandalism -- but its all about who does it
that's key, as in "not me" doing it is fine and I'm not even allowed to
call it what it is but if I do it ... heck, if I just add information
to an article with reference points and it makes pirates and trolls not
look nice, that's vandalism that gets my additions deleted and an
article locked. And to add insult to injury, then there's the taunt of
"c'mon, do it again!" from both you and Jae. WTF do you think I'm
smoking to go through your monkey electroshock again?

Is DNR not relevant? Does no one support it? Did I just make it up as
a personal opinion, With your help, that's how its treated and it'll
soon get vandalized. Errp, wiped without cause.

Eric Adler

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Oct 12, 2006, 1:00:47 AM10/12/06
to

I stand corrected, the attribution of the quote was wrong, but the quote
itself is still valid. We CAN'T afford to take a "Why bother" stance, or
else the pirates will win the first round, and the artists will gain a
Pyhrric victory in round two by no longer sharing their art.

Image piracy chases away artists. Remember William Haas, aka Ashtoreth.
He stopped sharing his art, and even withdrew completely from the
fandom, due to things like image piracy and people stealing credit for
what he did.

chib...@gmail.com

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Oct 12, 2006, 2:53:28 AM10/12/06
to

> I stand corrected, the attribution of the quote was wrong, but the quote
> itself is still valid. We CAN'T afford to take a "Why bother" stance, or
> else the pirates will win the first round, and the artists will gain a
> Pyhrric victory in round two by no longer sharing their art.
>
> Image piracy chases away artists. Remember William Haas, aka Ashtoreth.
> He stopped sharing his art, and even withdrew completely from the
> fandom, due to things like image piracy and people stealing credit for
> what he did.

Actually I've been wanting to gather a list of artists who have left
the net because of piracy to help show the damage it causes with actual
references. Do you know any more?

Reese Dorrycott

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Oct 12, 2006, 6:24:52 AM10/12/06
to
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 00:00:47 -0500, Eric Adler
<bavaria...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Apologies if I insulted you, it was a very simple thing to check the
quote. Took maybe thirty seconds on Netscape.

>Image piracy chases away artists. Remember William Haas, aka Ashtoreth.

Ah, actually no. Never heard of him/her. I have little contact with
any community of any kind. I think that I am personally aware of a
total dozen, maybe, people involved now or previously in the 'Fur'
community.

> He stopped sharing his art, and even withdrew completely from the
>fandom, due to things like image piracy and people stealing credit for
>what he did.

That was a choice he made. We make our choices, we live with the
results. Not being an artist, having zero creative talent of my own
other than being a father, it is not my place to comment upon what an
artist does, or does not do.


chib...@gmail.com

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Oct 12, 2006, 12:05:50 PM10/12/06
to
Do you have a favorite artist? Forget furry, a favorite artist who is
still alive and producing work, in general?

Imagine someone pirating the work of that favorite artist. Imagine it
becomes so widespread that there's more distribution through the piracy
network than the artist's official channels, and despite numerous
request from the author/artist, it doesn't stop.

Then suppose the artist stops making art because the pirates have
effectively taken away control over their work from them, and now
everyone has lost enjoyment of any art that artist was going to make in
the future, purely because some individuals refuse to respect the
rights of the artist.

Is that a price you're willing to pay in being silent about what art
pirates do?

mith...@yahoo.de

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Oct 12, 2006, 12:24:33 PM10/12/06
to
I actually encourage you to do this: With a few stipulations:
Make sure you find out exactly what kind of art piracy the artist left
the fandom for. Make multiple lists:
1. Left due to distribution of freely posted, non-commercial work.
2. Left due to distribution of commercial work.
3. Left due to others claiming credit for his/her works.

Alfie

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Oct 13, 2006, 12:46:04 PM10/13/06
to
mith...@yahoo.de <mith...@yahoo.de> wrote:
[...]

> I actually encourage you to do this: With a few stipulations:
> Make sure you find out exactly what kind of art piracy the artist left
> the fandom for. Make multiple lists:
> 1. Left due to distribution of freely posted, non-commercial work.
> 2. Left due to distribution of commercial work.
> 3. Left due to others claiming credit for his/her works.


(This isn't directed at you, but at readers here in general.)

I question use of the term `piracy' to refer to copying without
authorization. Making copies without first getting permission
has nothing to do with hijacking boats on the open ocean.
Calling such a thing piracy confuses the issues, and, to make
things worse, some people even admire pirates -- or, rather, a
romanticized fantasy of pirates. (Real pirates suck, but some
people see them as charming rogues).

So, does anyone have a better term for the act of making a copy
without permission from the creator of the artwork?

Rust

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Oct 13, 2006, 4:12:53 PM10/13/06
to
Alfie <al...@patterned.homeip.net> wrote in news:cfs404-46a.ln1@cpe-24-29-
27-233.cinci.res.rr.com:

> So, does anyone have a better term for the act of making a copy
> without permission from the creator of the artwork?

"Being an arse-wipe." Yeah, you're right that "pirate" carries all the
wrong connotations, but it's carried over from the heyday of "software
piracy". It sort of sticks. Maybe you could coin a new term, like "data
leech", but whether or not it'd catch on, who knows?

-Rust

chib...@gmail.com

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Oct 13, 2006, 7:21:57 PM10/13/06
to

How about Grand Theft Art?

I'll stick with art pirates for the time being ... its descriptive ...
taking things that don't belong to them.

mith...@yahoo.de

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Oct 14, 2006, 8:02:18 AM10/14/06
to

There are other things i yet need to answer, but i'll simply pose this
question as a kind of phisolophical one: If theft is, by definition,
the taking away of a physical object, which transfers it from one
person's possession into th possession of another, while leaving the
first person without possession of said object; why then is theft also
attributed to the mere act of creating a copy?

Doug Winger

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Oct 14, 2006, 10:52:09 AM10/14/06
to
In article <1160827338.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"mith...@yahoo.de" <mith...@yahoo.de> wrote:

Because theft is, by definition, obtaining someone's property in an
illegal fashion. SEE: intangible property, various legal definitions,
various legal codes and laws, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

I hate to see someone base an argument on faulty definitions.

Carry on.


-Doug, Not Being Amused

Rick Pikul

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Oct 15, 2006, 12:13:29 AM10/15/06
to
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 05:02:18 -0700, mith...@yahoo.de wrote:

> There are other things i yet need to answer, but i'll simply pose this
> question as a kind of phisolophical one: If theft is, by definition,
> the taking away of a physical object, which transfers it from one
> person's possession into th possession of another, while leaving the
> first person without possession of said object; why then is theft also
> attributed to the mere act of creating a copy?

Because you have taken the right to control when/where/how/by whom copies
are made.

--
Phoenix

mith...@yahoo.de

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Oct 15, 2006, 9:50:31 AM10/15/06
to
Thanks for the input, both of you. ^^

Doug, no need to be "not amused". I'm not arguing for either side. I
merely saw before me a riddle that i wished others to solve, since i
was unable to.

Thanks to the both of you i have found something that i can reconcile
with my inner craving for correctness: That, if someone is being
accused of art theft, it is actually the right to control, granted
through copyright, that is being stolen, not the art itself.

PS: In regards to another post i'm planning: In which group are more
artists reading? fur.artwork.erotica, alt.lifestyle.furry or
alt.fan.furry?

Doug Winger

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Oct 15, 2006, 10:26:50 PM10/15/06
to
In article <1160920231.0...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"mith...@yahoo.de" <mith...@yahoo.de> wrote:

My apologies for the seeming rudeness, but the "not amused" was brought
about by seeing this discussion raising its ugly head yet again. Your
post just happened to be the one it was hung upon and it was not
directed at you specifically.

This subject is a cyclical thing that returns from the dead more times
than a Roger Corman zombie, each time a little more decayed, a bit
shabbier and smelling all that much worse. Forgive my becoming slightly
cynical and annoyed at seeing it again- especially in a group supposedly
dedicated to binary posting of images and discussion thereof.

It would be a different matter if some degree of resolve might be
brought about by its discussion, but it's one of those topics that even
the minimal "agree to disagree" is never achieved, let alone any
consensus. I admit to having a go at it myself some time ago, so I don't
fault you for wishing to having yours. You seem to have an actual grasp
of the subject and show a laudable degree of intellectual honesty rather
than the ability to remain impregnable to reason. Despite that, I shall
reserve my amusement for those times that actual images show up here.

All the groups you mentioned have seen this "issue" come up more times
than I care to remember, but alt.fan.furry and fur.artwork.discuss are
likely the most fitted for discussion of this subject (though please
choose one or the other, as crossposting from/to a.f.f. will just cause
heartbreak). Also, the number of actual artists that might actually do
more than scan the headers and immediately hit the "next!" button after
shuddering and feeling relief at their narrow escape is probably near to
nil. Alt.fan.furry will probably get the most action, but that will
likely be of the sort of action you'd see in a Three Stooges short.


-Doug, Achieving Cyndication

Reese Dorrycott

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Oct 15, 2006, 11:59:11 PM10/15/06
to
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:26:50 -0700, Doug Winger
<just...@socal.rr.com> wrote:
>My apologies for the seeming rudeness, but the "not amused" was brought
>about by seeing this discussion raising its ugly head yet again. Your
>post just happened to be the one it was hung upon and it was not
>directed at you specifically.
>

Yep. When Mr. Winger is angry... EVERYONE knows it. I mean, there
used to be a nice planet between Mars and Jupiter you know.

"PROBED! I'll show you probed!" (line on non-furry art by Mr. Freddy
Andersson. Thus not posted here.)


winterbeast

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Oct 16, 2006, 3:58:51 AM10/16/06
to

No, he's not angry yet. when he's angry, he makes pictures about us and
posts them here. I will never forget the kiddie porn debacle.
700 posts, and Doug did a jaw dropping hilarious but (I think) still
legal picture about it all. I will let Doug describe the picture.
he can be hilarious at times...

Winterbeast

mith...@yahoo.de

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Oct 16, 2006, 9:54:49 AM10/16/06
to

Thanks for the explaining answer, completely understandable.

My last question wasn't aimed at this discussion tho, but was meant to
find out where to make a certain post that is positive for artists and
requires as many of these to read it as possible. =) (At the same time
i'd like to avoid crossposting.)

Alexsandyr Troutnoodler

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Oct 28, 2006, 9:08:31 PM10/28/06
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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chib...@gmail.com wrote:

*snip*

Y'know, Cheebs...

I told you before, you're far too close to this issue to have a rational
thought about it. I'm certainly no fan of Ross as I'm sure you're well
aware, but you're starting to sound like a shrill, tin-foil hat lunatic.

You're attacking some of your best and most valuable allies in Giza and
GreenReaper, so do yourself a favor?

Calm down a bit and take a few steps back from the keyboard.

- -IonOtter

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Starbla...@excite.com

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Oct 29, 2006, 3:56:22 AM10/29/06
to

Alexsandyr Troutnoodler wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> chib...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> *snip*
>
> Y'know, Cheebs...
>
> I told you before, you're far too close to this issue to have a rational
> thought about it.

Ion, do you have any thoughts about this Earth? This reality? Certainly
you have thoughts about your own life. Does that then bar you from
having rational thoughts about Earth, reality, and your life?

No offense to you particularly. I just wanted to point out a logical
fallacy. :P

I'm certainly no fan of Ross as I'm sure you're well
> aware, but you're starting to sound like a shrill, tin-foil hat lunatic.
>

IAWTC. ^^

Starbla...@excite.com

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Oct 29, 2006, 4:01:50 AM10/29/06
to

chib...@gmail.com wrote:
> Sites like fchan.org that blatantly violate well known
> Do-Not-Redistribute art, such as that of
> http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Klaus_Dobermann (and links in the article
> even re-confirm Klaus' request, which was blatantly violated as
> specifically pointed out on the fchan article talk page at
> http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Fchan).
>
> I hope artists who value control over their own work will weigh in on
> this issue.
>
> Here's an excuse of one:
> "BasementCoder: And yes, maybe I do ignore the incredibly petty whims
> of artists with overinflated egos."
>
> (BasementCoder is the owner and operator of wtfur.org)
>
> If a pirate site operator doesn't like you, as an person, they feel
> they have a right to abuse your creative and intellectual property
> rights as they see fit. Wikifur is the best resource the furry fandom

> has to establish standards and define terms so those who wonder "where
> is the line in violating an artist's wishes" can find an answer. This
> is your opportunity to weigh in and let your voice be heard on the
> topic of art piracy:
>
> http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Art_piracy

Why don't you ask for government's help? In fact, why don't you take
wtf and fchan pictures and put a red slash over it and protest it in
the public eye? Form a political party for all ameteur artists out
there. But of all things, DON'T JUST SIT ON YOUR ASS AND ENGAGE IN
CIRCLE JERK POLICIES COMPLAINING ABOUT IT WHEN SOMETHING COULD BE DONE!
Geez.

Alexsandyr Troutnoodler

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Oct 30, 2006, 12:07:18 PM10/30/06
to
Starbla...@Excite.com wrote:
>> Ion, do you have any thoughts about this Earth? This reality? Certainly
>> you have thoughts about your own life. Does that then bar you from
>> having rational thoughts about Earth, reality, and your life?
>
>> No offense to you particularly. I just wanted to point out a logical
>> fallacy. :P

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winterbeast

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Oct 30, 2006, 1:23:00 PM10/30/06
to


***SYSTEM RESTART
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***PROCEEDING WITH BOOT

Message has been deleted

Starbla...@excite.com

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Oct 31, 2006, 8:43:16 PM10/31/06
to

So you'd rather argue using emotion than logic?

Chibiabos

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Nov 2, 2006, 8:23:26 AM11/2/06
to
Giza and Greenreaper are no allies of mine, and I would be shaming
myself -- not doing myself a favor -- by associating with those who
protect articles stating piracy and stalking are okay and acceptable.

You choose whom you associate with, and you define yourself by those
you do. No one on Wikifur is allowed to have a "rational discussion"
... you must cowtow to the criminals and accept their behavior or find
yourself banished.

I don't give a human's arse what you think or how you excuse piracy,
stalking, harrassment and bullying.

Chibiabos

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Nov 2, 2006, 8:25:07 AM11/2/06
to

> Why don't you ask for government's help? In fact, why don't you take
> wtf and fchan pictures and put a red slash over it and protest it in
> the public eye? Form a political party for all ameteur artists out
> there. But of all things, DON'T JUST SIT ON YOUR ASS AND ENGAGE IN
> CIRCLE JERK POLICIES COMPLAINING ABOUT IT WHEN SOMETHING COULD BE DONE!
> Geez.

And where am I to get money for a lawyer? I'm not the one refusing to
curb criminals' behavior.

Alexsandyr Troutnoodler

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Nov 4, 2006, 4:40:40 PM11/4/06
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Chibiabos wrote:
> Giza and Greenreaper are no allies of mine, and I would be shaming
> myself -- not doing myself a favor -- by associating with those who
> protect articles stating piracy and stalking are okay and acceptable.

You really have no clue what I'm trying to tell you, do you? Maybe I
can get Lonnie to sit you down in a nice, quiet room, give you some warm
milk and cookies and explain it to you, niiiiiice and slow.

I'll try it here, but I doubt I'll have much luck; trying to tell you
anything over the internet is like trying to tell a lunatic to stop chew
ing off their foot to escape an imaginary trap.

Giza does not like Sibe. Sibe has tried to do bad things to WikiFur
several times, and has been caught red-handed by Giza. Giza would like
NOTHING BETTER than to have some Nice Men With Baseball Bats give Sibe a
proper education about being a nice person. But he also has to please
MORE THAN ONE PERSON, which means he answers to MANY, not just you. So
right or wrong, he has to go with the consensus. If it's a safety
issue-it's not-or a criminal issue-the govt' doesn't care/won't
prosecute-then Giza can pull it down.

But it's none of those things, so he's letting the community decide.

So far as I can tell, GreenReaper is following the very same policy. I
don't know where he stands PERSONALLY when it comes to Sibe, but it's
possibly less than favorable. But again, he's going to go with the
consensus.

Now, MAYBE if you could present your argument without looking like a
psycho screaming about the Giant Space Ants, then maybe people would
take you a little more seriously.

Right now, you look like a paranoid nutjob lining their house with
tinfoil and keeping all their food under lock and key.

> You choose whom you associate with, and you define yourself by those
> you do. No one on Wikifur is allowed to have a "rational discussion"
> ... you must cowtow to the criminals and accept their behavior or find
> yourself banished.

No dear, you have gone well and away from "rational" in anything you've
discussed. It's like I TOLD YOU, you are too close to this and you are
too pissed off at Sibe to even think clearly.

Talk to Lonnie. He can explain it for you, and maybe you'll understand
what Giza and Green Reaper are doing and why.

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Chibiabos

unread,
Nov 7, 2006, 3:04:47 AM11/7/06
to
Welcome to my permanent shitlist. Abusing others' RL information on a
very public newsgroup to attack me is the most sickening and disgusting
thing I've ever been exposed to on the Internet.

Sibe Husky

unread,
Nov 8, 2006, 8:17:12 PM11/8/06
to
Lol one Cheeb, one of the kadiatcha dancers is telling
you that you are starting to sound like a lunatic.

wowzers wolfman , you have won the internet! <3

*waglolwaglolwaglolwaglolwaglolwaglol*

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