Hi Guys,

I just wanted to put something out there for consideration. As I think most of you will agree, most of the hard work starts once you've left Tham Krabok. I myself can testify to that fact, its in the months and years beyhond the time I spent at Tham Krabok that have been insidiously difficult as opposed to the intense experience of the Wat.

I feel that it would be really helpful to try and organise something within this forum for after care, I'm thinking along the lines of a knowledge resource or contacts network of people who are happy to maybe be called or emailed outside of the forum, as well as a libary of information covering issues that we all face. I know that this to some extend is already happening informally.

I would be very happy to offer my time and modest resources, does anyone have ideas, suggestions or existing resources????

Also my renewed personal vow to not drink is going very well, as I said I am not a big drinker and it has never been a problem certainly not in the way drugs were for me but it was still an imporatant step for me. I have also started a general fitness program because my general health has been affected by my years of drug abuse. Stratergies like drinking lots of water and eating, regular exercise and not smoking. I do feel better for it, but I am still keen to do more work for my own metal health and I am seeking to find a retreated similar to the one Vince mentioned on here as it sounds fantastic.

I am 32 and about to marry and next year have children and would be the happiest man in the world if I could see my grand children grow to have children so my health is now a big priority....Thanks to my time at Tham Krabok and the support of you guys, my family and most of my wonderful fiance.

On a darker note I want to mention something about the ethics of accepting money for taking people to Tham Krabok and of assisting people to go along. I know this will be contraversal, but I think that if you accpt money, even if its only to cover expenses then you have a moral bond to be involved in the after care and you are also, in my view, morally obliged to give the best care you possible can in a selfless way. I think you also need to be honest about influencing peoples expectations of what they will get from their time at the Wat.

Because the fact that Tham Krabok is a buddhist monestry, carers morality should be at least informally guided by those of the faith and one should let the Four Noble Truths inform your actions more than some who is only a recipient of care. To offer care to another addict is a big responcibilty, people train for many years in this field and for good reason as its a complext area, there is a clear duty of care and ones actions need to altruistic and not for personal gain. I also feel that there should be some recourses for those who feel that they haven't been looked after well and dare I say it, possibly taken advantage of. I know of occurances that are questionable, but will not mention specifics. I find it grotesque that the years of good work by Tham Krabok, all of the Nuns, Monks and patients hard work over the years might be underminded by people assosiated by proxy for their own convieience and personal gain.

I look forward to hearing you views.

2009/10/30 John Cox <johncox2...@ymail.com>:

John and anyone that is prepared to try understand what I am about to
disclose in my self opinionated way :-)

What I do today I've been doing for 14 years at a professional level.
When I started doing it, in my altruistic ignorance I did more harm
than good.  I wanted to help everyone to do everything.  I had the
right reasons at heart - but I had no training.  I was an interfering
amatuer.  At best a shoulder to lean on. A walking talking example of
the 'way to do it'

I still feel to this day that ex-addicts and ex-alcoholics make the
best therapists.  We've been there. We know what we're talking of.

And the word Aftercare is full of subtleties - if I can explain...

I care  because I was cared for. I understand what I needed as
aftercare.  The word care carries connotations.  Caring is more than
assisting and sharing and helping.  Caring means you feel for the
person or family you're dealing with.  Caring hurts..
A professional therapist can't afford to care, can't be involved
emotionally/feelingly with the case they are dealing with.  We/they
must treat each individual person as a case.  To get deeper involved
is neither professional nor wise.  Oh I still care, but I have to keep
my distance as regards to 'caring' about the person.  Once I care
about one person, I start to make judgements and then decide I don't
like this one or that one etc...  My likes dislikes prejudices come
into the picture.

We tend to want to cosset them, protect them, nourish them, advise
them and love them.  That care.

The burn out rate is extremely high for carers.

I applaud anyone who wants to help those less able to help themselves.
 I have no ideas to offer except the Minnesota model of self help
care.

Where that works is common fellowship, ideals and principles.

In our organisation we do aftercare for alcoholics/addicts to help
them to find their feet and ideally there should be a pattern, a
template or a set of rules to guide us and them.  There isn't, because
each individual is different (not unique) but different needs, wants,
requirements and visions, dreams (or just plain don't know what they
want :-)

So indeed, aftercare through a place to go, meet, see each other,
discuss problems, seek solutions, get counselling, referrals - yea I
can see that working.  Finance ???

But no leaders.  No bosses. No structure.  ???

It has been my experience that the more successful after any given
number of years are those that swallow their doubts and ego and join
and attend 12 step groups.

PS I also believe that after completing a self appraisal and doing a
couple of years of meetings and some service in AA/NA/CA/OA - there
comes a time to stand on ones own two feet and face the world and our
own demons.

PPS you don't get thrown out of AA for disagreeing with their ideas or
not believeing in God or Jesus, and I still do an odd meeting to share
my profound wisdom (I don't think)

PPPS And none of this is meant as a criticism please.  We are so ego
driven, least I am, that the slightest hing of disagreement with my
opinion is enough to set me off

PPPPS  Why is it only proper to say PS AND PPS etc, can I not just say
PS1  PS2 PS3  or as we say locally, by the way, by the by, as I was
saying, just in case, lemme just add, before I go, and to finish.
Thats the English langwidge for yez :-)

Cheers
Tommy

John well done on the alcohol accomplishment, because it is hard as it is so
acceptable and normal in every social scene to have a drink.  I did my own
vow as well one year ago and have got used to it in pubs etc.  I have found
it tough at parties where you have to dance like last Sunday at a fancy
dress with 4000 drunk people.  But I survived and drove home with wonder
woman and bat woman as passengers.  Who regretted their over indulgence the
next day.  The one thing I found about alcohol is that it can take over as a
new addiction.  Or it is a trigger for many drugs like cocaine.  So I have
to give it all up and just be me.  Something I am getting used to for the
first time in my life.

Can I also comment on the other point you make about responsibility of
aftercare.  I totally agree with you.  It seems to be a common enough
concept to throw a load of darts at a dart board and some might stick the
others fall of and are just left there.  Of course some will stick, but the
odds not high enough, that's down to their own commitment.   I have heard
said that Thamkrabok gets you clean and you leave clean the rest is up to
yourself.  This can be misleading as of course you get clean you are locked
away from society and drugs and you have no choice to be clean.  Tough and
all as it is, it can be no other way.  Just like if you where locked in a
room for two weeks you of course detox.  But you have to leave that room.
In my own case I went with my own funds and of my own accord.  I had a
fighting spirit and so far so good.  But I believe that if you are paying
for someone's advice and services that's exactly what you should get.  A
service.

I do not think it is wrong to charge for a service, just like a dentist
charges to take your teeth out when you in pain.  But he is also there after
if you get an infection and aftercare is most important.  He will prescribe
you antibiotics and check ups.  He could not afford to do his duty for free.
If you are up front and charge, you must provide a service during the hard
times after.  Which I know many do when they take people over to Thamkrabok.
But sadly a lot of patients after getting "expert opinions" have been left
to their own devices.  I believe that before taking someone to the
monastery, a good bit of research should be done in the persons living
conditions, social and emotional state.  Plus what facilities are available
that the patient can take part in.  Not just NA meetings.  These are not
enough for most.  It is a persons one chance and those with a fighting
spirit will fight.  But a lot of people go with a broken spirit and rely on
the information they are given and it is not very clear.  Their crutch is
taken away and they are more lost and alone when they come back.  I am
speaking from data I have received from past patients in this instance.  It
is a patients one chance only in Thamkrabok, if they are going on their own
then they are usually going fighting but if they are being advised just to
jump on a plane and Thamkrabok will get them clean,  This is misleading.
They are usually going with the mind frame that Thamkrabok will work for
them as opposed to them using Thamkrabok as a tool that they are now ready
for.  

I think the word CARE is very important and its this word that seems to be
lacking for a lot of x patients when they come home.  It is a very important
one.  I for one within the time and resources I have do care and would help
anyone in Ireland in a personal way and also across the waters by email or
phone.  As I have done over the past year.  It is so important for detoxees
to know there is someone who has been through it.  A network in each country
using Thamkrabok should be set up.  I also feel sometimes one persons advice
on their experiences can be very narrow.  

I understand what John is saying and agree with him.  There is a huge lack
of direction for Irish patients when they come home.  Not just down to lack
of what we have available but information is not been passed out that they
actually will need extraordinary help other than attend meetings.  Plus to
make sure its organized before the trip is taken.  

Just my pennies worth

Audrey  

  _____  

From: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
[mailto:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John
Cox
Sent: 30 October 2009 11:19
To: Bill B
Subject: [FOTM:2380] Ethics and after care

Hi Guys,

I just wanted to put something out there for consideration. As I think most
of you will agree, most of the hard work starts once you've left Tham
Krabok. I myself can testify to that fact, its in the months and years
beyhond the time I spent at Tham Krabok that have been insidiously difficult
as opposed to the intense experience of the Wat.

I feel that it would be really helpful to try and organise something within
this forum for after care, I'm thinking along the lines of a knowledge
resource or contacts network of people who are happy to maybe be called or
emailed outside of the forum, as well as a libary of information covering
issues that we all face. I know that this to some extend is already
happening informally.

I would be very happy to offer my time and modest resources, does anyone
have ideas, suggestions or existing resources????

Also my renewed personal vow to not drink is going very well, as I said I am
not a big drinker and it has never been a problem certainly not in the way
drugs were for me but it was still an imporatant step for me. I have also
started a general fitness program because my general health has been
affected by my years of drug abuse. Stratergies like drinking lots of water
and eating, regular exercise and not smoking. I do feel better for it, but I
am still keen to do more work for my own metal health and I am seeking to
find a retreated similar to the one Vince mentioned on here as it sounds
fantastic.

I am 32 and about to marry and next year have children and would be the
happiest man in the world if I could see my grand children grow to have
children so my health is now a big priority....Thanks to my time at Tham
Krabok and the support of you guys, my family and most of my wonderful
fiance.

On a darker note I want to mention something about the ethics of accepting
money for taking people to Tham Krabok and of assisting people to go along.
I know this will be contraversal, but I think that if you accpt money, even
if its only to cover expenses then you have a moral bond to be involved in
the after care and you are also, in my view, morally obliged to give the
best care you possible can in a selfless way. I think you also need to be
honest about influencing peoples expectations of what they will get from
their time at the Wat.

Because the fact that Tham Krabok is a buddhist monestry, carers morality
should be at least informally guided by those of the faith and one should
let the Four Noble Truths inform your actions more than some who is only a
recipient of care. To offer care to another addict is a big responcibilty,
people train for many years in this field and for good reason as its a
complext area, there is a clear duty of care and ones actions need to
altruistic and not for personal gain. I also feel that there should be some
recourses for those who feel that they haven't been looked after well and
dare I say it, possibly taken advantage of. I know of occurances that are
questionable, but will not mention specifics. I find it grotesque that the
years of good work by Tham Krabok, all of the Nuns, Monks and patients hard
work over the years might be underminded by people assosiated by proxy for
their own convieience and personal gain.

I look forward to hearing you views.

John, Tommy and Audrey,

Thanks for 3 very thought provoking posts.  I agree with many points raised
by all of you.

And John, well-done on the alcohol front, that is quite an achievement. As
an aside, I took my personal vow never to drink alcohol again at my kitchen
table in Newbury, Berkshire in 1996; it was on my second visit to Thamkrabok
some three and a half years later before I took a formal Sajja and got a
personal Kahtah.

For anyone in desperate need, my contact details are on
http://www.tara-detox.org/html/contact.html and you can call my cellphone
number during 'sociable' UK hours or any time you see that my skype address
'tara.detox' is online (I often work night shifts).

The reason for setting up Friends-of-Thamkrabok-Monastery (FOTM) was
specifically for mutual support.  No one person has all the answers so we
can support our own and each others ongoing recovery.  FOTM is your support
group (although I'm starting to like the idea of calling it a 'Sangha' but
then that could have negative connotations - what do YOU think?).

I chose the GOOGLE-GROUPS format purely and simply because it required very
little set-up and maintenance, and although it is far from perfect, it does
the job.

The FOTM does have the option for members to post
pages<http://groups.google.com/group/friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery/web>and
files <http://groups.google.com/group/friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery/files>(such
as photos and documents), so feel free to add any content you think is
appropriate (but inappropriate content will be removed etc etc... you know
the drill).  I am in the process of re-formatting Phra Hanss' book on
Thamkrabok and will place it here for members to download at some point in
the not too distant future.

Many people forget or just plain ignore the fact that Thamkrabok is a
Buddhist.  There is no denying that the Thamkrabok approach to Dharma and
recovery is as unique in Thailand as it is in the rest of the world but it
is still a Buddhist approach and this should be highly respected.

I shall shortly be starting a meditation group for abstinence in Reading
(within walking distance of the British Rail Station).  I um'ed and ar'ed
around calling it "meditation for recovery and/or abstinence" or "mindful
recovery" but at the end of the day I've got to nail my colours to the mast
and say it's going to be a Sajja Group "Buddhist Mediation for Abstinence
and Recovery". If the "Buddhist" label puts people off then no matter; I'll
just find myself sitting in a hired hall on my own and as the original
purpose is to support my own sitting practice then that will have been
achieved in a roundabout way!  But if anyone wants to keep me company...

The mention of the Four Noble Truths (or Sajjas) reminds me that I must
write a short report about the recent BRN conference but in the meantime,
for those 'Friends' that aren't that familiar with Buddhism:

The Four Noble Truths or Sajjas are:

   *Dukkha sacca. *The Truth of Suffering

   *Samudaya sacca.   *The Truth of the Origin of Suffering

   *Nirodha  sacca.  *The Truth of the Cessation of Suffering

   *Magga  sacca.  *The Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of
   suffering

*"And what is the cause by which suffering (dukkha) comes into play?    **
Craving* <http://accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca2/tanha.html>* is
the cause by which suffering (dukkha) comes into play". **The Buddha.**
*
As recovering addicts there is no arguing with that!

Best wishes to all.

With Metta,

Vince
__________________________________
318
Distorted views,
which give rise to seeing right as wrong
and wrong as right,
are the cause for beings to disintegrate.
__________________________________
A DHAMMAPADA for CONTEMPLATION
http://aruno.org//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=241&Itemi...

Interesting stuff guys. I did post a word version of prah hans book on the forum which you may find it eaier to edit.

Sent from my iPod

On 31/10/2009, at 9:14, Vince Cullen <vince.cul...@gmail.com> wrote:

John, Tommy and Audrey,

Thanks for 3 very thought provoking posts.  I agree with many points raised by all of you.

And John, well-done on the alcohol front, that is quite an achievement. As an aside, I took my personal vow never to drink alcohol again at my kitchen table in Newbury, Berkshire in 1996; it was on my second visit to Thamkrabok some three and a half years later before I took a formal Sajja and got a personal Kahtah.

For anyone in desperate need, my contact details are on http://www.tara-detox.org/html/contact.html and you can call my cellphone number during 'sociable' UK hours or any time you see that my skype address 'tara.detox' is online (I often work night shifts).  

The reason for setting up Friends-of-Thamkrabok-Monastery (FOTM) was specifically for mutual support.  No one person has all the answers so we can support our own and each others ongoing recovery.  FOTM is your support group (although I'm starting to like the idea of calling it a 'Sangha' but then that could have negative connotations - what do YOU think?).  

I chose the GOOGLE-GROUPS format purely and simply because it required very little set-up and maintenance, and although it is far from perfect, it does the job.  

The FOTM does have the option for members to post pages and files (such as photos and documents), so feel free to add any content you think is appropriate (but inappropriate content will be removed etc etc... you know the drill).  I am in the process of re-formatting Phra Hanss' book on Thamkrabok and will place it here for members to download at some point in the not too distant future.

Many people forget or just plain ignore the fact that Thamkrabok is a Buddhist.  There is no denying that the Thamkrabok approach to Dharma and recovery is as unique in Thailand as it is in the rest of the world but it is still a Buddhist approach and this should be highly respected.

I shall shortly be starting a meditation group for abstinence in Reading (within walking distance of the British Rail Station).  I um'ed and ar'ed around calling it "meditation for recovery and/or abstinence" or "mindful recovery" but at the end of the day I've got to nail my colours to the mast and say it's going to be a Sajja Group "Buddhist Mediation for Abstinence and Recovery". If the "Buddhist" label puts people off then no matter; I'll just find myself sitting in a hired hall on my own and as the original purpose is to support my own sitting practice then that will have been achieved in a roundabout way!  But if anyone wants to keep me company...

The mention of the Four Noble Truths (or Sajjas) reminds me that I must write a short report about the recent BRN conference but in the meantime, for those 'Friends' that aren't that familiar with Buddhism:

The Four Noble Truths or Sajjas are:                            
Dukkha sacca. The Truth of Suffering

Samudaya sacca.   The Truth of the Origin of Suffering

Nirodha  sacca.  The Truth of the Cessation of Suffering

Magga  sacca.  The Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering

"And what is the cause by which suffering (dukkha) comes into play?    Craving is the cause by which suffering (dukkha) comes into play". The Buddha.

As recovering addicts there is no arguing with that!

Best wishes to all.

With Metta,

Vince
__________________________________
318
Distorted views,
which give rise to seeing right as wrong
and wrong as right,
are the cause for beings to disintegrate.
__________________________________
A DHAMMAPADA for CONTEMPLATION
http://aruno.org//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=241&Itemi...

Well done Vince on this fab resource as without it I would not have learned
and received valuable amounts of knowledge, advice  comfort and the best of
company.

Just on the Buddhist point I respect that the Monastery is Buddhist run and
definitely I respected that when I was there.  I just don't know anything
about Buddhism.  I never came into contact with a Buddhist until I went to
Thamkrabok and only little since.  So I do not talk about something I have
little comprehension of.  I never heard of the truths you speak of nor even
understand them.  So my lack of mentioning the Buddhist way is because I am
ignorant in this matter.  Though I do treasure and draw strength from my one
sajja from drugs, and value my introduction into meditation.  I admire the
way the monks think and live, I could not have an educated conversation on
it though.

So I have not forgotten it is Buddhism at all.  Just have a vague awareness.
I would not speak with authority on a subject that I have never studied.

Half the time I haven't got a clue.  So I talk about what I do have
experience in.  Hearing others, addiction, pain, despair, loneliness,
childhood trauma, humanity, relating to a persons feelings, cry for help,
hope, sharing, positivity and common sense.  I am very aware of Evangelistic
teachings by those who do not live by nor have enough experience in what
they want to push.

To quote you "  No one person has all the answers so we can support our own
and each others ongoing recovery. "  Is the most intelligent thing I have
heard in a long time.  I so wish many involved in Thamkrabok would draw and
learn and listen to others.  What aspect works for one patient in Thamkrabok
is not what will work for another.  The second patient will get something
else from it.  No one system works.   I got so much and appreciate and am
grateful for.

Do forgive my short fall in knowing the Buddhist way.  But it is never to be
confused with ignoring it.  

Again you deserve much credit for this forum.  May it grow and reach those
who need it.

Audrey - I would sit in that little room with you no problem.

  _____  

From: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
[mailto:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Vince
Cullen
Sent: 30 October 2009 22:14
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Subject: [FOTM:2384] Re: Ethics and after care

John, Tommy and Audrey,

Thanks for 3 very thought provoking posts.  I agree with many points raised
by all of you.

And John, well-done on the alcohol front, that is quite an achievement. As
an aside, I took my personal vow never to drink alcohol again at my kitchen
table in Newbury, Berkshire in 1996; it was on my second visit to Thamkrabok
some three and a half years later before I took a formal Sajja and got a
personal Kahtah.

For anyone in desperate need, my contact details are on
http://www.tara-detox.org/html/contact.html and you can call my cellphone
number during 'sociable' UK hours or any time you see that my skype address
'tara.detox' is online (I often work night shifts).  

The reason for setting up Friends-of-Thamkrabok-Monastery (FOTM) was
specifically for mutual support.  No one person has all the answers so we
can support our own and each others ongoing recovery.  FOTM is your support
group (although I'm starting to like the idea of calling it a 'Sangha' but
then that could have negative connotations - what do YOU think?).  

I chose the GOOGLE-GROUPS format purely and simply because it required very
little set-up and maintenance, and although it is far from perfect, it does
the job.  

The FOTM does have the option for members to post pages
<http://groups.google.com/group/friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery/web>  and
files <http://groups.google.com/group/friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery/files>
(such as photos and documents), so feel free to add any content you think is
appropriate (but inappropriate content will be removed etc etc... you know
the drill).  I am in the process of re-formatting Phra Hanss' book on
Thamkrabok and will place it here for members to download at some point in
the not too distant future.

Many people forget or just plain ignore the fact that Thamkrabok is a
Buddhist.  There is no denying that the Thamkrabok approach to Dharma and
recovery is as unique in Thailand as it is in the rest of the world but it
is still a Buddhist approach and this should be highly respected.

I shall shortly be starting a meditation group for abstinence in Reading
(within walking distance of the British Rail Station).  I um'ed and ar'ed
around calling it "meditation for recovery and/or abstinence" or "mindful
recovery" but at the end of the day I've got to nail my colours to the mast
and say it's going to be a Sajja Group "Buddhist Mediation for Abstinence
and Recovery". If the "Buddhist" label puts people off then no matter; I'll
just find myself sitting in a hired hall on my own and as the original
purpose is to support my own sitting practice then that will have been
achieved in a roundabout way!  But if anyone wants to keep me company...

The mention of the Four Noble Truths (or Sajjas) reminds me that I must
write a short report about the recent BRN conference but in the meantime,
for those 'Friends' that aren't that familiar with Buddhism:

The Four Noble Truths or Sajjas are:

Dukkha sacca. The Truth of Suffering

Samudaya sacca.   The Truth of the Origin of Suffering

Nirodha  sacca.  The Truth of the Cessation of Suffering

Magga  sacca.  The Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering

"And what is the cause by which suffering (dukkha) comes into play?
<http://accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca2/tanha.html> Craving is
the cause by which suffering (dukkha) comes into play". The Buddha.

As recovering addicts there is no arguing with that!

Best wishes to all.

With Metta,

Vince
__________________________________
318
Distorted views,
which give rise to seeing right as wrong
and wrong as right,
are the cause for beings to disintegrate.
__________________________________
A DHAMMAPADA for CONTEMPLATION
http://aruno.org//index.php?option=com_content
<http://aruno.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=241&Itemid=80>
&task=view&id=241&Itemid=80

As a side point I have loads of history and religious education audio books that explain Buddhism that are put together by scholars and historians. I suggest these as they don’t preach but merely explain in fairly pragmatic terms and not just on Buddhism but also things like Confucianism, Judaism, Islam and Christianity. I find them very useful because they leave me to make my own mind up.
 
Just let me know because I have a cloud drive that people can grab files from, I just have to send you a link.Coxy

________________________________
From: Audrey Delaney <audreysde...@eircom.net>
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, 31 October, 2009 12:26:24
Subject: [FOTM:2386] Re: Ethics and after care

Well done Vince on this fab resource as without it I would not have learned and received valuable amounts of knowledge, advice  comfort and the best of company.
 
Just on the Buddhist point I respect that the Monastery is Buddhist run and definitely I respected that when I was there.  I just don’t know anything about Buddhism.  I never came into contact with a Buddhist until I went to Thamkrabok and only little since.  So I do not talk about something I have little comprehension of.  I never heard of the truths you speak of nor even understand them.  So my lack of mentioning the Buddhist way is because I am ignorant in this matter.  Though I do treasure and draw strength from my one sajja from drugs, and value my introduction into meditation.  I admire the way the monks think and live, I could not have an educated conversation on it though.
 
So I have not forgotten it is Buddhism at all.  Just have a vague awareness.  I would not speak with authority on a subject that I have never studied.
 
Half the time I haven’t got a clue.  So I talk about what I do have experience in.  Hearing others, addiction, pain, despair, loneliness, childhood trauma, humanity, relating to a persons feelings, cry for help, hope, sharing, positivity and common sense.  I am very aware of Evangelistic teachings by those who do not live by nor have enough experience in what they want to push.
 
To quote you “  No one person has all the answers so we can support our own and each others ongoing recovery. “  Is the most intelligent thing I have heard in a long time.  I so wish many involved in Thamkrabok would draw and learn and listen to others.  What aspect works for one patient in Thamkrabok is not what will work for another.  The second patient will get something else from it.  No one system works.   I got so much and appreciate and am grateful for.
 
Do forgive my short fall in knowing the Buddhist way.  But it is never to be confused with ignoring it. 
 
 
Again you deserve much credit for this forum.  May it grow and reach those who need it.
 
Audrey - I would sit in that little room with you no problem.
 
 
 
 

________________________________

From:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com [mailto: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Vince Cullen
Sent: 30 October 2009 22:14
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Subject: [FOTM:2384] Re: Ethics and after care
 
John, Tommy and Audrey,

Thanks for 3 very thought provoking posts.  I agree with many points raised by all of you.

And John, well-done on the alcohol front, that is quite an achievement. As an aside, I took my personal vow never to drink alcohol again at my kitchen table in Newbury, Berkshire in 1996; it was on my second visit to Thamkrabok some three and a half years later before I took a formal Sajja and got a personal Kahtah.

For anyone in desperate need, my contact details are on http://www.tara-detox.org/html/contact.html and you can call my cellphone number during 'sociable' UK hours or any time you see that my skype address 'tara.detox' is online (I often work night shifts).  

The reason for setting up Friends-of-Thamkrabok-Monastery (FOTM) was specifically for mutual support.  No one person has all the answers so we can support our own and each others ongoing recovery.  FOTM is your support group (although I'm starting to like the idea of calling it a 'Sangha' but then that could have negative connotations - what do YOU think?). 

I chose the GOOGLE-GROUPS format purely and simply because it required very little set-up and maintenance, and although it is far from perfect, it does the job. 

The FOTM does have the option for members to post pages and files (such as photos and documents), so feel free to add any content you think is appropriate (but inappropriate content will be removed etc etc... you know the drill).  I am in the process of re-formatting Phra Hanss' book on Thamkrabok and will place it here for members to download at some point in the not too distant future.

Many people forget or just plain ignore the fact that Thamkrabok is a Buddhist.  There is no denying that the Thamkrabok approach to Dharma and recovery is as unique in Thailand as it is in the rest of the world but it is still a Buddhist approach and this should be highly respected.

I shall shortly be starting a meditation group for abstinence in Reading (within walking distance of the British Rail Station).  I um'ed and ar'ed around calling it "meditation for recovery and/or abstinence" or "mindful recovery" but at the end of the day I've got to nail my colours to the mast and say it's going to be a Sajja Group "Buddhist Mediation for Abstinence and Recovery". If the "Buddhist" label puts people off then no matter; I'll just find myself sitting in a hired hall on my own and as the original purpose is to support my own sitting practice then that will have been achieved in a roundabout way!  But if anyone wants to keep me company...

The mention of the Four Noble Truths (or Sajjas) reminds me that I must write a short report about the recent BRN conference but in the meantime, for those 'Friends' that aren't that familiar with Buddhism:

The Four Noble Truths or Sajjas are:
Dukkha sacca. The Truth of Suffering
Samudaya sacca.   The Truth of the Origin of Suffering
Nirodha  sacca.  The Truth of the Cessation of Suffering
Magga  sacca.  The Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering
"And what is the cause by which suffering (dukkha) comes into play?    Cravingis the cause by which suffering (dukkha) comes into play". The Buddha.
As recovering addicts there is no arguing with that!

Best wishes to all.

With Metta,

Vince
__________________________________
318
Distorted views,
which give rise to seeing right as wrong
and wrong as right,
are the cause for beings to disintegrate.
__________________________________
A DHAMMAPADA for CONTEMPLATION
http://aruno.org//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=241&Itemi...

Hi John (and All),very glad to hear you've taken the decision the give
the booze the Sack.I know very well how damaging alcohol is,in general
and the problems it can and will cause a recovering addict.Alcohol is
not my problem (and I hope it never will be-),but I DO drink (..I cant
even say I really enjoy it!!) ,usually out of a warped sense of social
commitment(??!!),and know all too well how much better physically and
mentally I feel 3,4,5 days clear of ANY booze in the system.I really
like that feeling and do make a point of doing it regulary (I drink
twice a week+ 'occasions',at present).I DO look forward to following
your example.
 I'm completely with you on the excersise thing and eating well-the
whole thing becomes a 'buzz' in itself,would you agree?It has been and
still is an integral part of my recovary and I would say I'm fitter
now than I was 20 years ago and I'm proud enough to say that.

 As far as Aftercare is concerned,of course this is an ongoing
consideration and something which must be stressed in the extreme to
anybody considering 'The Treatment'.We are well and strategically
placed here to do this to enquirees and I think we normally always
do.It is their ultimate responsibility and at present the best we can
do is offer the on-line post-recovary advice that we presently at
least attempt to do,both on or off the board.Iam more than willing to
consider further support or volunteer to any further 'formalization'
of this.
 I remember when I completed de-tox and just before leaving the
Site,The Late Phra Hans giving one of his incredible 'on ya way' pep-
talks ('bout 2 or 3 hours long,same length on admission and not long
enough,though I doubt I thought that at the time),dotted with the most
amazing analogies and images to do with 'digging deep into hard rock
mountains to get to the gold' and 'not letting the children drive the
car'(!?)- any patient that I've talked to,or I bet reading this,lucky
enough,knows what I'm talking about! (I dont know who is doing his job
now,but I will say he is a hard act to follow!)
The point I was trying to make,before the inevitable 'side-track',is
that he was at the time very enthusiastic about setting up a post-
detox,post-treatment 'chill-out' zone, somewhere within reasonable
accessabilty of patients leaving TKB,and attempting to gain support
for the idea.The idea was a beach or somewhere with a couple of
canopies,tents whatever where people can meditate,eat,sleep and
basically not be expected of too much.(Does anyone have any news of
the proposed 'Metta Farm',discussed some time ago here?)....when an
(ex-?)'drunkie' leaves Thamkrabok after 0ne month (..or less if you
dont listen to Good Advice),probably the worst place he/she can go is
straight home (back to the 'scene',back to the 'triggers' in a
weakened and traumatised state of mind ( ..I bloody was!!).....second
worst place is to hit the 'party trail' in Thailand (..I bloody
did!!..not a great idea!!),which is full of inevitable dangers and
demons-so it doesn't leave a lot of options,really,to most-which is
why I thought this was such a good idea! Lets hope something is
underway!!!

Tommy,I very much agree that the best Drug-workers/Councillors are Ex-
Addicts-they have instant 'kudos' purely becuase they can look people
straight in the eye and say-"No,no mate-I know!!-you know I do!!...".I
did not come across any,myself (in 14 years).

Vince,I very much like the idea of the 'On-line Sangha'.I think its
just perfect and not at all out of place here.Once again I'll
say,anyone accepting (free!) Treatment through the Monastary shouldn't
really have any complaint of being referred to as an 'honoury member'
of the/a 'Sangha' regardless of religion or whatever,they've already
been part of the Wat 'On-Site' Sangha!!!(know-it or not!)...I expect
most of them dont even know what it means??!!
(I dont feel that strongly about it,though)

Audrey,I think your admittal of not really knowing much about Buddhism
is both honourable,right and honest.I knew very little until quite
some time after my de-tox and lets face it,many patients dont even
consider the option (to their loss,I would say).I hope you,at
least,pick up a few bits a pieces from our discussions and find them
interesting...either way,its your actions that count,and not what you
call them!!

Very Best Wishes to All (Sentient Beings),
Metta,
Mfk.

On Oct 30, 11:19 am, John Cox <johncox2...@ymail.com> wrote:

Thanks for that MFK, particularly for the prompt about The Metta Foundation
Farm.

I met Johan (the founder) and Hans (the director/manager) at the Buddhist
Recovery Network <http://www.buddhistrecovery.org/> conference last month.

'The Metta Farm' is going to be a sort of 'half-way house' up in Chiang Rai,
northern Thailand.  Building work is still in progress and is expected to be
completed early in 2010.

There will be 60 en-suite bedrooms for recovering addicts, Thai and non-Thai
alike, to stay in after their detox at Thamkrabok.  At the moment it is not
intended to charge any money for the accommodation but I think this might
change over time to just a small donation by those individuals that can
afford it; just to keep the whole place running for everyone.

There will be the opportunity to work on the land and to practice meditation
but the final daily/weekly structure has yet to be decided.

I will try to plan the time of my next visit to Thailand to coincide with
the opening of The Metta Farm so that I can lend a hand if needed.

The Metta Farm website should be up and running before the end of the year
so I will post a link here then.

Warm regards and best wishes to all,

Vince
__________________________________
320
Like an elephant in battle
withstands arrows,
I choose to endure
verbal attacks from others.
__________________________________
A DHAMMAPADA for CONTEMPLATION
http://aruno.org//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=241&Itemi...

2009/11/1 metalface from kent <boswelia...@hotmail.co.uk>

..Thats great news,Vince!!-much better than I expected,what with the
proposed facilities and it sounds 'organised'.I think that will go a
long way to increasing a patients chance of achieving a
'turnaround'.The first 3 months or so after de-tox I believe to be a
very difficult period (after long-term use),what with the need for the
poor 'head' and body to recover from the serious trauma of an
unmedicated withdrawel,and the chance for the body chemistry to gain
some ground in reaching a normal stasis once the 'offending' chemicals
are removed (suddenly,eh?).
Very Best of Luck to Johan and all concerned with that,I look forward
to one day visiting (I never did get up to Chang Mai).
Mfk

On Nov 1, 8:29 pm, Vince Cullen <vince.cul...@gmail.com> wrote:

There is no one that seems to work harder than you Vince on all of this.
Your just terrific.  So committed and You sent me so much help advice and
practicalities with nothing to gain for yourself.  A little gem.

I would love so much to know more and I must say I was taken aback by the
attitude of the monks when over in Thamkrabok.  The peaceful atmosphere.
The non critical, non judgmental struck a cord with me.  I learned so much.

To see some of the monks in the Hay put up with such "irritating comments"
and irrational behavior in such a placid way and then sit and chat to the
culprits was mind blowing.  They never once said "Oh they spoilt or bad or
wrong".  They accepted people as they are.   The Dharma was amazing. I asked
him a question and it was one that I had mentioned it to others before I
asked and they all told me what the Dharma would say as that was the
Buddhist answer.  To my delight and surprise the Dharma gave me a completely
different answer than expected.  It was more in tune with me and what sat
comfortable with how I feel.   Everyone was surprised.  I was very pleased.

I will admit there was one or two aspects that I found hard to believe in
and my life experiences showed me different.  But if that’s allowed and I
can take from it what I need.  All Good of course.  I would be very
motivated to learn more.  

Though I have been to a Tibetan Buddhist centre where I live, well an hour
and 20minutes away and its lovely, now would this be very different.  I had
a great chat with the abbot there and he is Chinese and the head nun and
they where thrilled that I was spiritual and believe that there is something
greater than I am out there. Bit by bit I am learning but would never force
it on anyone as it personal and spirituality is something that came to me
years ago under no religious name.  I believe when you ready it comes to you
and you shouldn’t be pushed into it.  

MFK .. when I was in Thamkrabok there was this sweet little French kid and
he was reading what looked like one of those Dummies books but in French and
he told me it was Buddhism for Dummies and I wouldn’t believe him.  So that
will be on my next book to buy list.  Now that I know it really exists.
Thank you for you nice words.

Thanks also Stuart who has now made me realise as well as knowing nothing
about Buddhism I also know nothing about football.

John yes I would like that file, that would be terrific, however I have to
wait till PC is fixed as I cannot down load or up load due to memory
problems and I have deleted everything of my system that I can.  I am
however having a guy come and look at it.  

Tommy you are Irish and I still cannot understand you but it amuses me your
little sayings and words.  So much goes on in your head, keep sharing.  

Those who pray, please pray for dear Brian Heffernan.  As Vince said he not
well at the moment.  My thoughts and prayers are with such a gentle man.

Thanks for being my friends.  

Audrey

...

read more »

Vince I agree with Audrey you are great man.

From: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
[mailto:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Vince
Cullen
Sent: Monday, 2 November 2009 7:30 AM
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Subject: [FOTM:2390] Re: Ethics and after care

Thanks for that MFK, particularly for the prompt about The Metta Foundation
Farm.

I met Johan (the founder) and Hans (the director/manager) at the Buddhist
Recovery Network <http://www.buddhistrecovery.org/>  conference last month.

'The Metta Farm' is going to be a sort of 'half-way house' up in Chiang Rai,
northern Thailand.  Building work is still in progress and is expected to be
completed early in 2010.  

There will be 60 en-suite bedrooms for recovering addicts, Thai and non-Thai
alike, to stay in after their detox at Thamkrabok.  At the moment it is not
intended to charge any money for the accommodation but I think this might
change over time to just a small donation by those individuals that can
afford it; just to keep the whole place running for everyone.

There will be the opportunity to work on the land and to practice meditation
but the final daily/weekly structure has yet to be decided.

I will try to plan the time of my next visit to Thailand to coincide with
the opening of The Metta Farm so that I can lend a hand if needed.

The Metta Farm website should be up and running before the end of the year
so I will post a link here then.

Warm regards and best wishes to all,

Vince
__________________________________
320
Like an elephant in battle
withstands arrows,
I choose to endure
verbal attacks from others.
__________________________________
A DHAMMAPADA for CONTEMPLATION
http://aruno.org//index.php?option=com_content
<http://aruno.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=241&Itemid=80>
&task=view&id=241&Itemid=80

2009/11/1 metalface from kent <boswelia...@hotmail.co.uk>

(Does anyone have any news of the proposed 'Metta Farm', discussed some time
ago here?)....

Vince can I meet up with you in Bangkok and come and help with you ?

From: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
[mailto:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Vince
Cullen
Sent: Monday, 2 November 2009 7:30 AM
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Subject: [FOTM:2390] Re: Ethics and after care

Thanks for that MFK, particularly for the prompt about The Metta Foundation
Farm.

I met Johan (the founder) and Hans (the director/manager) at the Buddhist
Recovery Network <http://www.buddhistrecovery.org/>  conference last month.

'The Metta Farm' is going to be a sort of 'half-way house' up in Chiang Rai,
northern Thailand.  Building work is still in progress and is expected to be
completed early in 2010.  

There will be 60 en-suite bedrooms for recovering addicts, Thai and non-Thai
alike, to stay in after their detox at Thamkrabok.  At the moment it is not
intended to charge any money for the accommodation but I think this might
change over time to just a small donation by those individuals that can
afford it; just to keep the whole place running for everyone.

There will be the opportunity to work on the land and to practice meditation
but the final daily/weekly structure has yet to be decided.

I will try to plan the time of my next visit to Thailand to coincide with
the opening of The Metta Farm so that I can lend a hand if needed.

The Metta Farm website should be up and running before the end of the year
so I will post a link here then.

Warm regards and best wishes to all,

Vince
__________________________________
320
Like an elephant in battle
withstands arrows,
I choose to endure
verbal attacks from others.
__________________________________
A DHAMMAPADA for CONTEMPLATION
http://aruno.org//index.php?option=com_content
<http://aruno.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=241&Itemid=80>
&task=view&id=241&Itemid=80

2009/11/1 metalface from kent <boswelia...@hotmail.co.uk>

(Does anyone have any news of the proposed 'Metta Farm', discussed some time
ago here?)....

Hey Pete, hope your well mate?

I compleatly agree about Mr Vincent, boundless energy, a good heart and a sharp mind can do allot of good.

It's a long journey this one and it's easy to get lost so good directions are vital...

Sent from my iPod

On 03/11/2009, at 10:29, "peter & Maree" <eccs...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

Vince can I meet up with you in Bangkok and come and help with you ?

From: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com [mailto:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Vince Cullen
Sent: Monday, 2 November 2009 7:30 AM
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Subject: [FOTM:2390] Re: Ethics and after care

Thanks for that MFK, particularly for the prompt about The Metta Foundation Farm.

I met Johan (the founder) and Hans (the director/manager) at the Buddhist Recovery Network conference last month.  

'The Metta Farm' is going to be a sort of 'half-way house' up in Chiang Rai, northern Thailand.  Building work is still in progress and is expected to be completed early in 2010.  

There will be 60 en-suite bedrooms for recovering addicts, Thai and non-Thai alike, to stay in after their detox at Thamkrabok.  At the moment it is not intended to charge any money for the accommodation but I think this might change over time to just a small donation by those individuals that can afford it; just to keep the whole place running for everyone.

There will be the opportunity to work on the land and to practice meditation but the final daily/weekly structure has yet to be decided.

I will try to plan the time of my next visit to Thailand to coincide with the opening of The Metta Farm so that I can lend a hand if needed.

The Metta Farm website should be up and running before the end of the year so I will post a link here then.

Warm regards and best wishes to all,

Vince
__________________________________
320
Like an elephant in battle
withstands arrows,
I choose to endure
verbal attacks from others.
__________________________________
A DHAMMAPADA for CONTEMPLATION
http://aruno.org//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=241&Itemi...

2009/11/1 metalface from kent <boswelia...@hotmail.co.uk>

(Does anyone have any news of the proposed 'Metta Farm', discussed some time ago here?)....

Hi John,im sorry to say im not doing that well ,I have fallen back into a pathetic life of drink and drugs,I and very depressed and full of hate for my partner that wants nothing more to do with me ,while she goes out and parties with her beautiful friends I fall deeper into a dark pit,don’t know how much longer I can hold this,I know ive gotta get out and find something but I just don’t give a fuck anymore...oh and maree has taken control of most of my money too.ive got about 10k and that should see me through to the end.

From: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com [mailto:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2009 11:19 AM
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Subject: [FOTM:2396] Re: Ethics and after care

Hey Pete, hope your well mate?

I compleatly agree about Mr Vincent, boundless energy, a good heart and a sharp mind can do allot of good.

It's a long journey this one and it's easy to get lost so good directions are vital...

Sent from my iPod

On 03/11/2009, at 10:29, "peter & Maree" <eccs...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

Vince can I meet up with you in Bangkok and come and help with you ?

From: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com [mailto:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Vince Cullen
Sent: Monday, 2 November 2009 7:30 AM
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Subject: [FOTM:2390] Re: Ethics and after care

Thanks for that MFK, particularly for the prompt about The Metta Foundation Farm.

I met Johan (the founder) and Hans (the director/manager) at the Buddhist Recovery Network <http://www.buddhistrecovery.org/>  conference last month.  

'The Metta Farm' is going to be a sort of 'half-way house' up in Chiang Rai, northern Thailand.  Building work is still in progress and is expected to be completed early in 2010.  

There will be 60 en-suite bedrooms for recovering addicts, Thai and non-Thai alike, to stay in after their detox at Thamkrabok.  At the moment it is not intended to charge any money for the accommodation but I think this might change over time to just a small donation by those individuals that can afford it; just to keep the whole place running for everyone.

There will be the opportunity to work on the land and to practice meditation but the final daily/weekly structure has yet to be decided.

I will try to plan the time of my next visit to Thailand to coincide with the opening of The Metta Farm so that I can lend a hand if needed.

The Metta Farm website should be up and running before the end of the year so I will post a link here then.

Warm regards and best wishes to all,

Vince
__________________________________
320
Like an elephant in battle
withstands arrows,
I choose to endure
verbal attacks from others.
__________________________________
A DHAMMAPADA for CONTEMPLATION
http://aruno.org//index.php?option=com_content <http://aruno.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=241&Itemid=80> &task=view&id=241&Itemid=80

2009/11/1 metalface from kent <boswelia...@hotmail.co.uk>

(Does anyone have any news of the proposed 'Metta Farm', discussed some time ago here?)....

I really don’t know where to turn and I don’t know what my next step will be.i just want out right now

From: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com [mailto:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2009 11:19 AM
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Subject: [FOTM:2396] Re: Ethics and after care

Hey Pete, hope your well mate?

I compleatly agree about Mr Vincent, boundless energy, a good heart and a sharp mind can do allot of good.

It's a long journey this one and it's easy to get lost so good directions are vital...

Sent from my iPod

On 03/11/2009, at 10:29, "peter & Maree" <eccs...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

Vince can I meet up with you in Bangkok and come and help with you ?

From: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com [mailto:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Vince Cullen
Sent: Monday, 2 November 2009 7:30 AM
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Subject: [FOTM:2390] Re: Ethics and after care

Thanks for that MFK, particularly for the prompt about The Metta Foundation Farm.

I met Johan (the founder) and Hans (the director/manager) at the Buddhist Recovery Network <http://www.buddhistrecovery.org/>  conference last month.  

'The Metta Farm' is going to be a sort of 'half-way house' up in Chiang Rai, northern Thailand.  Building work is still in progress and is expected to be completed early in 2010.  

There will be 60 en-suite bedrooms for recovering addicts, Thai and non-Thai alike, to stay in after their detox at Thamkrabok.  At the moment it is not intended to charge any money for the accommodation but I think this might change over time to just a small donation by those individuals that can afford it; just to keep the whole place running for everyone.

There will be the opportunity to work on the land and to practice meditation but the final daily/weekly structure has yet to be decided.

I will try to plan the time of my next visit to Thailand to coincide with the opening of The Metta Farm so that I can lend a hand if needed.

The Metta Farm website should be up and running before the end of the year so I will post a link here then.

Warm regards and best wishes to all,

Vince
__________________________________
320
Like an elephant in battle
withstands arrows,
I choose to endure
verbal attacks from others.
__________________________________
A DHAMMAPADA for CONTEMPLATION
http://aruno.org//index.php?option=com_content <http://aruno.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=241&Itemid=80> &task=view&id=241&Itemid=80

2009/11/1 metalface from kent <boswelia...@hotmail.co.uk>

(Does anyone have any news of the proposed 'Metta Farm', discussed some time ago here?)....

Hi Pete,
 
It seems to me that your problems are piling up on top of you, and that you feel suffocated and helpless. But I don't think your situation is helpless, I think if you try and tackle each issue one at a time it might feel like less of a mountain to climb.
 
One important thing for the short term is to try a bit of damage limitation, by that I mean accept that you’re using and for now just try and go easy, rather than stopping completely. If you can just manage your usage to a level that isn't destructive then you should be able to bring some control to the world around you and I think that's what you’re lacking at the moment, you feel like you've lost control.
 
In my view another important thing for you to try and deal with is your feelings towards your partner. I don’t know the in's and out's of the situation, so won’t comment. But my philosophy is that we cannot and should not try to control others. We can only be responsible for our actions and be mindful of the reactions we might get. Your wife, your family and your friends will do as they wish and trying to influence them is like trying to herd cats, impossible and ultimately a fruitless exercise.
 
Charity starts at home Peter, look after yourself then once your back on your feet you can start rebuilding on the foundations. You’re in a victim minds set right now, it’s an easy place to be and we've all done it. It's an emotional dead end, it leads nowhere. Don't give up, stand up and just keep putting one foot in front of the other...I heard that said by a famous mountaineer once. He or she was asked how, when you’re looking up at that massive mountain do you motivate yourself to climb it and that person replied, I don't, I just put one foot in front of the other and keep doing that until I'm at the top. I think that's very true.
 
I don’t want to turn this email on to myself but I've been in your shoes more than once in my short life, the guilt and the pain and the shame of it are almost unbearable, especially when you've sworn that you'd never go back, but once again you have. Its a nasty horrible feeling but it will pass and you've got a responsibility to get back on your feet. This will sound harsh Peter but you have a responsibility to get the fuck up and sort yourself out. You have kids, friends, family and even us lot on the forum thinking about you and willing you to sort yourself out...I know you can do it buddy, find that grain of energy that left in you and hold on to it, it is there I promise.
 
Stay in touch pal,
 
Coxy

________________________________
From: peter & Maree <eccs...@bigpond.net.au>
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, 3 November, 2009 11:37:04
Subject: [FOTM:2398] Re: Ethics and after care

I really don’t know where to turn and I don’t know what my next step will be.i just want out right now
 
From:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com [mailto:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2009 11:19 AM
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Subject: [FOTM:2396] Re: Ethics and after care
 
Hey Pete, hope your well mate?
 
I compleatly agree about Mr Vincent, boundless energy, a good heart and a sharp mind can do allot of good.
 
It's a long journey this one and it's easy to get lost so good directions are vital... 

Sent from my iPod

On 03/11/2009, at 10:29, "peter & Maree" <eccs...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Vince can I meet up with you in Bangkok and come and help with you ?

 

Hi Pete.

John has said a lot of sense there.  You are in despair.  Hurt and lost.  It
is black and horrible.  I have been there.  I remember someone saying to me.
You don't know where you will next year things can turn around.  I couldn't
see it but I knew if I stayed the way I was it would'nt happen.  So I took
small steps bit by bit in the right direction.  They where right.  So much
hope that I couldn't see finally came into view.

Your partner has found a strength to carry on through everything that is
happening.  You need to find the same.  You feel betrayed but I guess she
feels the same way.  It is not what she signed up for at the beginning.
You have to concentrate on your own actions as you cannot change anyone
else.  But you can show them you are sorting yourself out.  People can turn
full circles.   The system you are using to get through your pain pet is not
working.  Your feeling worse.  Please try to focus on a daily basis on
having a plan of what to do with your day.  Put little goals in place to
start with.   Take responsibility and own your part in what is happening in
your relationship.  Anger will eat you. Try understanding.  But concentrate
more on getting yourself into a place where you can think more rationally.

There is no magic solution, only positive actions will lead to a happier
life.  Do go talk to someone. A councellor, group.  Maybe get yourself into
a treatment centre to get your head straight again.  Try whatever it takes.
Taking the healing road is the only answer, its hard but worth it.  Or you
can go on as you are and the depression stays with you.  

No one on this or anywhere I know regrets giving up.  We have a choice now
that we are clean to stay clean..  I feel you really need help with this so
please go see a rehab and start again.  

Sorry this is so short, its morning here and I don't normally email at this
time, but I saw your posts.  Lots of warm thoughts for you and please please
believe there is a way out of this hole.  You just got to start digging.

Rely on yourself for your happiness.  Concentrating on others and what they
are doing is pointless.  You are the one who is need right now.  Look at
yourself and what you are doing.

Keep fighting and change one thing everyday.  It will have a ripple effect
and things will happen in your life.

My heart and thoughts are with you.

Audrey

  _____  

From: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
[mailto:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John
Cox
Sent: 03 November 2009 03:25
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Subject: [FOTM:2399] Re: Ethics and after care

Hi Pete,

It seems to me that your problems are piling up on top of you, and that you
feel suffocated and helpless. But I don't think your situation is helpless,
I think if you try and tackle each issue one at a time it might feel like
less of a mountain to climb.

One important thing for the short term is to try a bit of damage limitation,
by that I mean accept that you're using and for now just try and go easy,
rather than stopping completely. If you can just manage your usage to a
level that isn't destructive then you should be able to bring some control
to the world around you and I think that's what you're lacking at the
moment, you feel like you've lost control.

In my view another important thing for you to try and deal with is your
feelings towards your partner. I don't know the in's and out's of the
situation, so won't comment. But my philosophy is that we cannot and should
not try to control others. We can only be responsible for our actions and be
mindful of the reactions we might get. Your wife, your family and your
friends will do as they wish and trying to influence them is like trying to
herd cats, impossible and ultimately a fruitless exercise.

Charity starts at home Peter, look after yourself then once your back on
your feet you can start rebuilding on the foundations. You're in a victim
minds set right now, it's an easy place to be and we've all done it. It's an
emotional dead end, it leads nowhere. Don't give up, stand up and just keep
putting one foot in front of the other...I heard that said by a famous
mountaineer once. He or she was asked how, when you're looking up at that
massive mountain do you motivate yourself to climb it and that person
replied, I don't, I just put one foot in front of the other and keep doing
that until I'm at the top. I think that's very true.

I don't want to turn this email on to myself but I've been in your shoes
more than once in my short life, the guilt and the pain and the shame of it
are almost unbearable, especially when you've sworn that you'd never go
back, but once again you have. Its a nasty horrible feeling but it will pass
and you've got a responsibility to get back on your feet. This will sound
harsh Peter but you have a responsibility to get the fuck up and sort
yourself out. You have kids, friends, family and even us lot on the forum
thinking about you and willing you to sort yourself out...I know you can do
it buddy, find that grain of energy that left in you and hold on to it, it
is there I promise.

Stay in touch pal,

Coxy

  _____  

From: peter & Maree <eccs...@bigpond.net.au>
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, 3 November, 2009 11:37:04
Subject: [FOTM:2398] Re: Ethics and after care

I really don't know where to turn and I don't know what my next step will
be.i just want out right now

From: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
[mailto:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John
Cox
Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2009 11:19 AM
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Subject: [FOTM:2396] Re: Ethics and after care

Hey Pete, hope your well mate?

I compleatly agree about Mr Vincent, boundless energy, a good heart and a
sharp mind can do allot of good.

It's a long journey this one and it's easy to get lost so good directions
are vital...

Sent from my iPod

On 03/11/2009, at 10:29, "peter & Maree" <eccs...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

Vince can I meet up with you in Bangkok and come and help with you ?

From: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
[mailto:friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Vince
Cullen
Sent: Monday, 2 November 2009 7:30 AM
To: friends-of-thamkrabok-monastery@googlegroups.com
Subject: [FOTM:2390] Re: Ethics and after care

Thanks for that MFK, particularly for the prompt about The Metta Foundation
Farm.

I met Johan (the founder) and Hans (the director/manager) at the Buddhist
Recovery <http://www.buddhistrecovery.org/>  Network conference last month.

'The Metta Farm' is going to be a sort of 'half-way house' up in Chiang Rai,
northern Thailand.  Building work is still in progress and is expected to be
completed early in 2010.  

There will be 60 en-suite bedrooms for recovering addicts, Thai and non-Thai
alike, to stay in after their detox at Thamkrabok.  At the moment it is not
intended to charge any money for the accommodation but I think this might
change over time to just a small donation by those individuals that can
afford it; just to keep the whole place running for everyone.

There will be the opportunity to work on the land and to practice meditation
but the final daily/weekly structure has yet to be decided.

I will try to plan the time of my next visit to Thailand to coincide with
the opening of The Metta Farm so that I can lend a hand if needed.

The Metta Farm website should be up and running before the end of the year
so I will post a link here then.

Warm regards and best wishes to all,

Vince
__________________________________
320
Like an elephant in battle
withstands arrows,
I choose to endure
verbal attacks from others.
__________________________________
A DHAMMAPADA for CONTEMPLATION
http://aruno.org//index.php?option=com_content
<http://aruno.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=241&Itemid=80>
&task=view&id=241&Itemid=80

2009/11/1 metalface from kent <boswelia...@hotmail.co.uk>

(Does anyone have any news of the proposed 'Metta Farm', discussed some time
ago here?)....

Pete,I'm sorry that you've gotten yourself back down there in that pit
again,I really am!! We've all been there and its shit!! Its not
irretrievable,but it is down to you. You'll just have to haul yourself
back onto your feet,cos you dont have much choice,mate. Nothing is
going to happen very fast-you dont spend 10 years walking into the
'Dark Forest' to spend a week walking out.It takes time and it starts
with the Right Actions and the Right Attitude-probably seems like a
long way off from where you are,but its not-they are 2 things you can
'give' yourself.
Dont look to No-one else!!! Whatever problems your having with your
current partner, I will be as forward to say that your 'problem' has
much to blame.Trust is hard to earn and Easy to lose! Look at it from
ALL perpectives,not just your own. A lot of people's problems in this
area come from unfulfilled (perhaps unreasonable,given the
circumstances) expectations,.That CAN be changed.
 I dont think that is the issue at the moment from the sounds of it-
I'd say,from where you are-you need to disclude anyone else from the
equation,do the Right thing for yourself,and gradually,gradually
everything else will come back round.
I think your definately looking at de-tox (first!)-so you will have to
consider your options over there.10k sounds like a lot of money to
me,so you've got more of a start than most of the 'last chance'
junkies I know and knew,so consider that one thing less to worry about
and use it to make things easier rather than a means to destroy
yourself....like John's mountaineer-'...one foot in front of the
other'!!
...My well-intended advice,for what its worth! I hope it gives you at
least some perspective,Pete,I wish you all the best.
Mfk

On Nov 3, 12:37 am, "peter & Maree" <eccs...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

..Pete...as an afterthought and for your consideration-if you did
manage to de-tox yourself (that would be imperative!)-you could always
return to TKB and 'take the robes'(2 months,6 Months? or whatever)-
that would 'straighten' you out and it certainly works for some.
 I would add that this is no easy option and needs commitment and
consideration...but it is 'An Option'...(whilst you still got the
Cash!!!!!).
You will need to 'clean' yourself up.though.mfk

On Nov 3, 12:37 am, "peter & Maree" <eccs...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

Hi Pete,

I'm sorry it's taken me so long to reply to you (and lots of other emails as
well).  I've had some heavy-duty days and nights at work, coupled with some
other employment issues which means that I now have a bit of a log-jam of
emails to catch up with.

Never mind, as we Buddhists say... all things are temporary, transient and
impermanent... thank God!

Becoming a monk at Thamkrabok is a wonderful experience.  I've done it a
couple of times and will probably do it again in the future... maybe I'll
take robes just for Tudong again; we will have to wait and see what
opportunities the Universe provides on that score.

If you are going to be a monk, be mindful of your reasons for doing it...
intention is everything.  Putting on robes does not make you a monk... but
how you think and act does.

Anyway, about The Metta Foundation Farm.  I called Hans and he was delighted
that there is so much interest already in the project.  Hans says that the
building work is progressing well although there is still a lot of work to
do with getting the local community... farmers, local officials and
politicians on board as well.  Ex-patients from Thamkrabok will be very
welcome to visit the farm when it opens next year. Hans will let us know the
official opening date as soon as it is decided.

So, as long as the date of the opening ties in with other stuff next year
you'll definitely see me making the trip.  There is no reason we can't meet
up at Thamkrabok and make the journey from there via the overnight train
from Lop Buri to Chiang Mai and bus to Chaing Rai (or it is much quicker,
but not as much 'fun' to fly direct from BKK to Chaing Rai)... but it's all
a bit too early in the day to say or make plans at the moment.

Anyway, whatever you decide to do... just be mindful.

Best wishes to all.

May your Sajja always be strong.
May your Sajja never be broken.
May your Sajja bring you all the gifts you deserve.

With Metta,

Vince
__________________________________
321
Well-trained horses
can be trusted in crowds,
and are to be mounted by kings.
Individuals who have trained
themselves to withstand abuse
will be valuable everywhere.
__________________________________
A DHAMMAPADA for CONTEMPLATION
http://aruno.org//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=241&Itemi...

2009/11/2 peter & Maree <eccs...@bigpond.net.au>