McCain wasn't tortured in Vietnam! He lied!
Steve Wallis
daily newspaper. You can find it at http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk
(but you need to pay £1 for 24 hours access to the archive and current
edition or £10 for a month).
McCain's tales of war don't add up
(Friday 31 October 2008)
Guard talks of tough but humane conditions, writes JAMES TWEEDIE.
US Republican presidential candidate John McCain has built a
reputation as a war hero on the basis of his claims of torture as a
prisoner of war in Vietnam.
He was shot down over Hanoi on October 26 1967. It was his 23rd
mission over Vietnam and it ended in a lake in Hanoi known as Silvery
Rushes, where he came down after bailing out from his burning plane.
But the chief prison guard of the jail where he was imprisoned
revealed recently that Mr McCain had not been mistreated at all.
In an interview with the Italian daily Corriere della Sera, Nguyen
Tien Tran acknowledged that conditions in the prison were "tough,
though not inhuman."
But, he added: "We never tortured McCain. On the contrary, we saved
his life, curing him with extremely valuable medicines that, at times,
were not available to our own wounded."
Shortly after his release in 1973, Mr McCain told US News & World
Report that his prison guards had beaten him "from pillar to post."
After being worked over at intervals for four days, he said that he
had become suicidal and agreed to sign a "confession" admitting to war
crimes.
In his 1999 autobiography, Faith of My Fathers, Mr McCain described
how he had been subjected to inhumane treatment in an effort to force
him to disclose his ship's name, squadron number and the target of his
final mission.
But in his 1972 book The Vietnam Story, Soviet author Ivan Shchedrov
reproduced the following transcript of Mr McCain's interrogation.
He was asked for his name, rank and then for his opinion of Hanoi's
air defences. "As to the ground-to-air missiles," said the major, a
son and grandson of US admirals, "I think they are quite accurate and
we often cannot evade them. I had almost reached my target when I
suddenly saw the missiles heading towards me. Then there was a
terrific blast. And now I'm a prisoner."
Vietnamese former nurse Nguyen Thi Thanh recalled this week how she
had treated Mr McCain after he had been shot down.
In an interview with the BBC, she said: "My responsibility was to care
for my own countrymen only.
"But Ho Chi Minh advised people to show compassion and to save the
enemies. So I told myself that I had to fulfil my duty.
"That evening, when I left the clinic, an old man came to me and
yelled at me for caring for an enemy. I told him I just did what Ho
Chi Minh asked all of us to do."
Asked if a McCain presidency would be good for Vietnam, Mrs Nguyen
said: "He is friendly and he has done some good things for the
Vietnamese, but it is difficult to predict the future."
As for Barack Obama, she said: "I don't think he has any ties with
Vietnam. But a clean slate can be a good thing.
"If American people are wise, they will choose someone who loves
peace."
--
If you want to know why I am supporting Barack Obama in today's US
presidential election as a step towards achieving socialism, rather
than a third-party candidate like Ralph Nader, download newsletter 5
of my Foundation for Proportional Representation-based Socialism (in
Micro$oft Word or PDF format) from http://www.PRsocialism.org. I would
particularly welcome some of you who live in the USA printing/
photocopying it to distribute, as I have done in Manchester. You can
alternatively read the contents of the newsletter by visiting
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRsocialism/message/130.
--
Steve Wallis (Manchester, England)
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emails (using artificial intelligence techniques not just checking for
keywords). I'm not a "patriot" so I guess the Patriot Act is aimed at
people like myself as well as (or rather much more than) Islamic
fundamentalists.]
Bert Byfield
Guards ALWAYS talk of tough but humane conditions. Often they are
lying, covering up for their fellow thugs.
> US Republican presidential candidate John McCain has built a
> reputation as a war hero on the basis of his claims of torture as
> a prisoner of war in Vietnam.
> He was shot down over Hanoi on October 26 1967. It was his 23rd
> mission over Vietnam and it ended in a lake in Hanoi known as
> Silvery Rushes, where he came down after bailing out from his
> burning plane.
Yes.
> But the chief prison guard of the jail where he was imprisoned
> revealed recently that Mr McCain had not been mistreated at all.
He can't REVEAL this if he is lying. He can only claim it. And it
stinks like a lie to me.
> In an interview with the Italian daily Corriere della Sera, Nguyen
> Tien Tran acknowledged that conditions in the prison were "tough,
> though not inhuman."
> But, he added: "We never tortured McCain. On the contrary, we
> saved his life, curing him with extremely valuable medicines that,
> at times, were not available to our own wounded."
Very bloody unlikely.
> Shortly after his release in 1973, Mr McCain told US News & World
> Report that his prison guards had beaten him "from pillar to
> post."
> After being worked over at intervals for four days, he said that
> he had become suicidal and agreed to sign a "confession" admitting
> to war crimes.
> In his 1999 autobiography, Faith of My Fathers, Mr McCain
> described how he had been subjected to inhumane treatment in an
> effort to force him to disclose his ship's name, squadron number
> and the target of his final mission.
> But in his 1972 book The Vietnam Story, Soviet author Ivan
> Shchedrov reproduced the following transcript of Mr McCain's
> interrogation.
REPRODUCED?! Does this mean "created"? This is a Soviet author? Gimme
a break.
> He was asked for his name, rank and then for his opinion of
> Hanoi's air defences. "As to the ground-to-air missiles," said the
> major, a son and grandson of US admirals, "I think they are quite
> accurate and we often cannot evade them. I had almost reached my
> target when I suddenly saw the missiles heading towards me. Then
> there was a terrific blast. And now I'm a prisoner."
Soviet missiles defended by a Soviet author.
> Vietnamese former nurse Nguyen Thi Thanh recalled this week how
> she had treated Mr McCain after he had been shot down.
> In an interview with the BBC, she said: "My responsibility was to
> care for my own countrymen only.
> "But Ho Chi Minh advised people to show compassion and to save the
> enemies. So I told myself that I had to fulfil my duty.
A nurse...
> "That evening, when I left the clinic, an old man came to me and
> yelled at me for caring for an enemy. I told him I just did what
> Ho Chi Minh asked all of us to do."
Attacked by her fellow socialists for being humane.
> Asked if a McCain presidency would be good for Vietnam, Mrs Nguyen
> said: "He is friendly and he has done some good things for the
> Vietnamese, but it is difficult to predict the future."
> As for Barack Obama, she said: "I don't think he has any ties with
> Vietnam. But a clean slate can be a good thing.
> "If American people are wise, they will choose someone who loves
> peace."
A nurse lecturing America.
> If you want to know why I am supporting Barack Obama in today's US
> presidential election as a step towards achieving socialism,
> rather than a third-party candidate like Ralph Nader, download
Ralph Nader???!!! Do you know what percent of the vote he got??? And
don't hold your breath waiting for Obama to set up Soviets and put
you Marxists in charge of them. The socialist accusation was a Karl
Rove zombie lie.
stephen
still think the economy is in good shape?
Did you end up voting for McCain? At least he is on record on the
great shape of the economic fundamentals.
srd
John Holmes
This is an interesting story, but I see no reason to give it
particular credibility. But then again, there's no reason to give
McCain's version credibility either. As there certainly were no
objective outside observers around at the time, I suppose we'll never
know.
One gets the impression from her remarks that Ms. Nguyen rather liked
McCain. I wonder what his bio said about her, if anything? Anybody
actually read the thing?
>
>> If you want to know why I am supporting Barack Obama in today's US
>> presidential election as a step towards achieving socialism,
>> rather than a third-party candidate like Ralph Nader, download
>
> Ralph Nader???!!! Do you know what percent of the vote he got??? And
> don't hold your breath waiting for Obama to set up Soviets and put
> you Marxists in charge of them. The socialist accusation was a Karl
> Rove zombie lie.
>
Yeah, it was. What's interesting was how Obama responded. McCain left
himself wide open to being compared to Herbert Hoover, the Hoover
Republicans made similar accusations vs. FDR. That would certainly
have nailed it for Obama with older voters, McCain's best base.
But he didn't. Why? Because that hadn't occurred to him? I doubt that
very much.
It was because if he said that, he'd be casting himself as FDR, and
people would be expecting a New Deal. Which is not gonna happen,
America is broke.
-jh-
stephen
There's an inquisitive historian!
>
> One gets the impression from her remarks that Ms. Nguyen rather liked
> McCain. I wonder what his bio said about her, if anything? Anybody
> actually read the thing?
No, but word is he didn't mention her.
Rolling Stone gives what strikes me as a more trustworthy expose of
McCain at http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain
It always struck me that, speaking from a class-neutral standpoint,
McCain is hardly the paradigm of a war hero, since he admits caving.
srd
Bert Byfield
> still think the economy is in good shape?
The economy is in some difficulty after eight years of looting by the
Bush regime, which spent countless money on their evil wars and their
evil manipulations of American business, but we have a smart man coming
to the Whitehouse and he will rescue us all. Obama is smart enough to
hire smart people to work in the government. Pointy-hair Bush didn't
trust anyone smarter than himself, so he surrounded himself with other
morons. It will be different in the future.
> Did you end up voting for McCain? At least he is on record on the
> great shape of the economic fundamentals. srd
I voted for Obama. I almost voted for Bob Barr, but I was afraid McCain
might win, so I voted for Obama and then switched to the Indepenent
Party for the lesser offices.
Bert Byfield
>> liked McCain. I wonder what his bio said about her, if anything?
>> Anybody actually read the thing?
Don't you guys ever watch prison movies? How often does a POW get to
hang out with a nurse???
> It always struck me that, speaking from a class-neutral
> standpoint, McCain is hardly the paradigm of a war hero, since he
> admits caving. srd
I wouldn't make too much fuss over a "war hero" whose war was bombing
cities, which is more like terrorism than war, but to attack the
man's war record because he is a Republian is a cheap shot.
>>>> If you want to know why I am supporting Barack Obama in
>>>> today's US presidential election as a step towards achieving
>>>> socialism, rather than a third-party candidate like Ralph
>>>> Nader, download
>>> Ralph Nader???!!! Do you know what percent of the vote he
>>> got??? And don't hold your breath waiting for Obama to set up
>>> Soviets and put you Marxists in charge of them. The socialist
>>> accusation was a Karl Rove zombie lie.
>> Yeah, it was. What's interesting was how Obama responded. McCain
>> left himself wide open to being compared to Herbert Hoover, the
>> Hoover Republicans made similar accusations vs. FDR. That would
>> certainly have nailed it for Obama with older voters, McCain's
>> best base.
I doubt more than 1% of Americans have any idea who Herbert Hoover
was.
>> But he didn't. Why? Because that hadn't occurred to him? I doubt
>> that very much.
Because it wouldn't have helped. No accusation of this or that would
have changed anyone's mind. All the accusations had been thrown
around the room like a high school food fight. The important issue
was: Would Americans tell a pollster they were going to vote for
Obama, but then out of secret racism, vote for McCain in the privacy
of the voting booth. The nazi neanderthals were all claiming this
would happen, called it the Bradley Effect, said McCain would win,
but this turned out to be wishful thinking. Obama was ahead in the
polls, but even farther ahead in the election. Must be some voters
said they were voting for McCain, but in the privacy of the voting
booth, they voted their conscience, they voted for Obama.
>> It was because if he said that, he'd be casting himself as FDR,
>> and people would be expecting a New Deal. Which is not gonna
>> happen, America is broke.
>> -jh-
Nobody in America cares about FDR either. Football, baseball,
universal health coverage, beer, and SUVs, that's what America is
made of.
John Holmes
On Wed, 5 Nov 2008, Bert Byfield wrote:
>> You avoided answering Holmes's last question to you, Brick: Do you
>> still think the economy is in good shape?
>
> The economy is in some difficulty after eight years of looting by the
> Bush regime, which spent countless money on their evil wars and their
> evil manipulations of American business, but we have a smart man coming
> to the Whitehouse and he will rescue us all.
Heh heh. Famous last words.
> Obama is smart enough to
> hire smart people to work in the government. Pointy-hair Bush didn't
> trust anyone smarter than himself, so he surrounded himself with other
> morons. It will be different in the future.
Yes, Obama is a bright fellow, he did real well at Harvard. Good
public speaker too, something rare among American politicians. But at
this point, that doesn't matter. The feces has hit the fan.
-jh-
John Holmes
On Wed, 5 Nov 2008, Bert Byfield wrote:
>>> One gets the impression from her remarks that Ms. Nguyen rather
>>> liked McCain. I wonder what his bio said about her, if anything?
>>> Anybody actually read the thing?
>
> Don't you guys ever watch prison movies? How often does a POW get to
> hang out with a nurse???
Can't say that I do. I'd imagine she had some contact with him, as he
was in bad shape and needed medical tending--however that bad shape
came to be.
>...
> I wouldn't make too much fuss over a "war hero" whose war was bombing
> cities, which is more like terrorism than war, but to attack the
> man's war record because he is a Republian is a cheap shot.
Ditto on both counts, as it happens.
>
>>>>> If you want to know why I am supporting Barack Obama in
>>>>> today's US presidential election as a step towards achieving
>>>>> socialism, rather than a third-party candidate like Ralph
>>>>> Nader, download
>
>>>> Ralph Nader???!!! Do you know what percent of the vote he
>>>> got??? And don't hold your breath waiting for Obama to set up
>>>> Soviets and put you Marxists in charge of them. The socialist
>>>> accusation was a Karl Rove zombie lie.
>
>>> Yeah, it was. What's interesting was how Obama responded. McCain
>>> left himself wide open to being compared to Herbert Hoover, the
>>> Hoover Republicans made similar accusations vs. FDR. That would
>>> certainly have nailed it for Obama with older voters, McCain's
>>> best base.
>
> I doubt more than 1% of Americans have any idea who Herbert Hoover
> was.
I think you are way wrong about that.
>
>>> But he didn't. Why? Because that hadn't occurred to him? I doubt
>>> that very much.
>
> Because it wouldn't have helped. No accusation of this or that would
> have changed anyone's mind. All the accusations had been thrown
> around the room like a high school food fight. The important issue
> was: Would Americans tell a pollster they were going to vote for
> Obama, but then out of secret racism, vote for McCain in the privacy
> of the voting booth. The nazi neanderthals were all claiming this
> would happen, called it the Bradley Effect, said McCain would win,
> but this turned out to be wishful thinking. Obama was ahead in the
> polls, but even farther ahead in the election. Must be some voters
> said they were voting for McCain, but in the privacy of the voting
> booth, they voted their conscience, they voted for Obama.
The Bradley Effect was a bad joke. Plenty of people voted for McCain
because he was white, the Sarah Palin crowd, but they were pretty open
about how they felt, and felt no need to lie to pollsters.
24% of voters, when polled, stated that race was a factor in how they
voted. But most of those voted for Obama! Some of those were white
racists who voted for Obama anyway because of how disgusted they were
with Bush, but most of them were people sick and tired of the
Republican Party and everything it stands for, including white racism.
And voting for Obama is a great way to take a purely *symbolic* stand
against white racism, while still supporting more prisons, cracking
down on "crime," opposing affirmative action, etc. etc.
The fact that Barack's middle name is Hussein probably won him votes
on balance too.
> >>> It was because if he said that, he'd be casting himself as FDR,
>>> and people would be expecting a New Deal. Which is not gonna
>>> happen, America is broke.
>>> -jh-
>
> Nobody in America cares about FDR either. Football, baseball,
> universal health coverage, beer, and SUVs, that's what America is
> made of.
>
FDR they may not care about anymore, but Americans have always cared
about the New Deal, that's why Americans used to vote Democratic in
overwhelming numbers. After Reagan got to office and the Demos went
all "centrist," after Mondale, Hubert Humphrey's protege, flopped in
1984, they stopped talking about the New Deal, and Democratic Party
support slowly dissipated. Now people voted for Obama precisely
because they thought he would bring back the good old days, which the
New Deal was seen by most everybody as the basis of.
-jh-