Japanese study...
NC86
do fourth year. However, since I have started to find it difficult, I
want to study Japanese in Tokyo for about one month during the
Dec-Nov-Jan holidays.
Does anyone know of any good language schools where I could do this?
I found this one: http://www.wle-japan.com but I don't know if they have
a good reputation. Is there anything I should look for in these schools?
Thanks for any suggestions.
declan...@hotmail.com
> I have almost finished third year university Japanese and next year will
> do fourth year. However, since I have started to find it difficult, I
> want to study Japanese in Tokyo for about one month during the
> Dec-Nov-Jan holidays.
>
> Does anyone know of any good language schools where I could do this?
If it has to be Tokyo, have a look at Naganuma, Kai & ALA. Those 3 have
reasonably good reputations. If you don't mind being outside Tokyo (at
least when studying - you can easily visit Tokyo during the breaks),
the Nov/Dec/Jan programs I work for are at
http://www.yamasa.org/acjs/english/programs/winter.html
> I found this one: http://www.wle-japan.com but I don't know if they have
> a good reputation.
They write that they are APJLE accredited and are located in Chiyoda.
However none of the 6 APJLE accredited schools in Chiyoda are called
"Academy of Japanese Language and Culture" nor is there any school of
that name accredited anywhere else in Japan. This is because
http://www.wle-japan.com is an agency in Hong Kong.
http://www.wle-japan.com/webterms.html
"GENERAL This agreement is governed by the laws of the Hong Kong
Special Administrative Region ("Hong Kong") of the Peoples Republic of
China. You hereby consent to the exclusive jurisdiction and venue of
courts in Hong Kong in all disputes arising out of or relating to the
use of this site. Use of this site is unauthorized in any jurisdiction
that does not give effect to all provisions of these terms and
conditions, including without limitation this paragraph. "
If you ask them to send you the 4 digit APJLE accreditation number
"kaiinbangou", I could tell you which school they are referring the
students to.
> Is there anything I should look for in these schools?
Apart from the obvious (very detailed information), I would suggest
having a look for independent 3rd party feedback. For example reviews,
websites and blogs written by past or present students. I mentioned
Naganuma earlier, a quick google produced this blog
http://www.livejournal.com/users/chard/41636.html#cutid1
...now of course not all students are going to be happy, but by reading
these kind of things you might find something relevant to you that
could help you with your search.
John W.
My personal opinion is that you're time would be best spent outside of
Tokyo. But I'm not a huge fan of Tokyo; too busy and too many
opportunities/reasons to not speak Japanese. Try something a bit more
rural if you can and visit Tokyo; I think in the long run you'll
benefit from the way a not-so-big metropolis forces you to actually use
the language you learn. If you're studying for a year you notice this
less than if you're there for a month, and individual tastes/study
habits play a major role as well.
Yamasa, of course, comes to mind.
John W.
Don Kirkman
article <1127812067.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
>NC86 wrote:
>> I have almost finished third year university Japanese and next year will
>> do fourth year. However, since I have started to find it difficult, I
>> want to study Japanese in Tokyo for about one month during the
>> Dec-Nov-Jan holidays.
>> Does anyone know of any good language schools where I could do this?
>If it has to be Tokyo, have a look at Naganuma, Kai & ALA. Those 3 have
>reasonably good reputations. If you don't mind being outside Tokyo (at
>least when studying - you can easily visit Tokyo during the breaks),
>the Nov/Dec/Jan programs I work for are at
>http://www.yamasa.org/acjs/english/programs/winter.html
>> I found this one: http://www.wle-japan.com but I don't know if they have
>> a good reputation.
>They write that they are APJLE accredited and are located in Chiyoda.
>However none of the 6 APJLE accredited schools in Chiyoda are called
>"Academy of Japanese Language and Culture" nor is there any school of
>that name accredited anywhere else in Japan. This is because
>http://www.wle-japan.com is an agency in Hong Kong.
[. . .]
>> Is there anything I should look for in these schools?
>Apart from the obvious (very detailed information), I would suggest
>having a look for independent 3rd party feedback. For example reviews,
>websites and blogs written by past or present students. I mentioned
>Naganuma earlier, a quick google produced this blog
>http://www.livejournal.com/users/chard/41636.html#cutid1
>...now of course not all students are going to be happy, but by reading
>these kind of things you might find something relevant to you that
>could help you with your search.
My experience at Naganuma is too ancient to be useful for today's
situation, and even when I was there some students were less satisfied
than others.
I don't understand why the protagonist in that blog is in school if he
is so unsatisfied; I got the impression he was there voluntarily. He
seems to be stressing more over the "academics" of the situation rather
than working at finding opportunities to use the language he says he
already has.
When I was there classes (AFAIK) were mornings only, which left
afternoons free for study, shopping, casual conversation, and listening
to the radio (TV came only later), all useful ways of building practical
language skills. I'm not clear from the blog if the afternoon sessions
are required or not.
Truth in advertising: when I got to Naganuma I had had some academic
introduction to Japanese and had read a handful of children's books, but
had no speaking ability; the early stages of the written work were easy
for me, leaving more energy to concentrate on conversation.
I was fortunate to have able teachers, one in particular an older woman
who passed on many bits of cultural knowledge along with the language.
The others were younger, but quite satisfactory, and class work included
(necessarily somewhat restricted*) discussion of the reading materials.
* For want of adequate language to engage in either broader or deeper
discussions.
I don't know how receptive Naganuma is to casual or short-term students;
when I was there I was on a term system.
--
Don Kirkman
B Robson
declan...@hotmail.com wrote:
> NC86 wrote:
> If it has to be Tokyo, have a look at Naganuma, Kai & ALA. Those 3 have
> reasonably good reputations. If you don't mind being outside Tokyo (at
> least when studying - you can easily visit Tokyo during the breaks),
> the Nov/Dec/Jan programs I work for are at
> http://www.yamasa.org/acjs/english/programs/winter.html
>
>
>>I found this one: http://www.wle-japan.com but I don't know if they have
>>a good reputation.
>
>
> They write that they are APJLE accredited and are located in Chiyoda.
> However none of the 6 APJLE accredited schools in Chiyoda are called
> "Academy of Japanese Language and Culture" nor is there any school of
> that name accredited anywhere else in Japan. This is because
> http://www.wle-japan.com is an agency in Hong Kong.
>
Nice photo of the budo-kan, I wonder if they have the classes there?
If the OP really wants the language and karate aspect he could start a
fight in the Yamasa bar every night.
B Robson
Don Kirkman wrote:
> I don't understand why the protagonist in that blog is in school if he
> is so unsatisfied; I got the impression he was there voluntarily. He
> seems to be stressing more over the "academics" of the situation rather
> than working at finding opportunities to use the language he says he
> already has.
He has been there 3 months. I think he has unreasonable expectations of
what level of Japanese he has and is likely to have after 3 months.
NC86
> fight in the Yamasa bar every night.
Actually that's why I was looking at the WLE school... they have a
cheaper "tuition only" option which Yamasa doesn't seem to have. I'm
sure I can pick up those essential karate skills at a later date.
declan...@hotmail.com
All of Yamasa's options are tuition only, I'm just not into martial
arts etc and the programs tend to reflect my preferences and prejudices
- sorry about that. Joining a local dojo is easy enough even for short
term students.
As for cheaper, yes, the Tokyo schools will usually cost less at first
appearance. 4 weeks in winter in say, Yamasa's "SILAC" option will set
you back 123,200 yen for 92 x 50 minute classes with average class size
of about 5 students. Options such as "Acceleration" are going to cost a
fair bit more.
By comparison the AUD$225 per week for 4 weeks at the agency's school
http://www.wle-japan.com/tuition_only_feesAUD.htm
would work out at only about 78,000 yen.
Most 1 month programs in the Tokyo area will cost about 80-90000 yen
for tuition only. You get what you pay for. Find out how long the
classes are, how many per week, how large the class size will be,
whether the teachers are full time professionals or casuals, whether
your will be in a class comprised of students similar to yourself
(short term course) or if you are simply going to be placed into a
class of students enrolled in a 2 year pre-college prep course etc.
Caveat emptor etc.
Michael Cash
brought down from the Mount tablets inscribed:
Name me a gaigin that last sentence doesn't apply to.
--
Michael Cash
"Clowns to the left of me and jokers to the right, Mr. Cash.
Clowns and jokers."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
necoandjeff
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:20:22 +0900, B Robson <fr...@00-love.jp>
> brought down from the Mount tablets inscribed:
>
>>
>>
>> Don Kirkman wrote:
>>
>>> I don't understand why the protagonist in that blog is in school if
>>> he is so unsatisfied; I got the impression he was there
>>> voluntarily. He seems to be stressing more over the "academics" of
>>> the situation rather than working at finding opportunities to use
>>> the language he says he already has.
>>
>> He has been there 3 months. I think he has unreasonable expectations
>> of what level of Japanese he has and is likely to have after 3
>> months.
>
> Name me a gaigin that last sentence doesn't apply to.
Every gaigin who has studied Japanese for longer than 3 months...
declan...@hotmail.com
> Michael Cash wrote:
> > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:20:22 +0900, B Robson <fr...@00-love.jp>
> > brought down from the Mount tablets inscribed:
> >
> >> of what level of Japanese he has and is likely to have after 3
> >> months.
> >
> > Name me a gaigin that last sentence doesn't apply to.
>
> Every gaigin who has studied Japanese for longer than 3 months...
I have unreasonable expectations of the level of Japanese likely to be
obtained after another 20 years. Level 1 was the equivalent of an
afternoon's stroll from Calcutta. Everest is going to need quite a few
more gin & tonics.
NC86
> NC86 wrote:
>
>>I have almost finished third year university Japanese and next year will
>>do fourth year. However, since I have started to find it difficult, I
>>want to study Japanese in Tokyo for about one month during the
>>Dec-Nov-Jan holidays.
>>
>>Does anyone know of any good language schools where I could do this?
>
>
> If it has to be Tokyo, have a look at Naganuma, Kai & ALA. Those 3 have
> reasonably good reputations. If you don't mind being outside Tokyo (at
> least when studying - you can easily visit Tokyo during the breaks),
> the Nov/Dec/Jan programs I work for are at
> http://www.yamasa.org/acjs/english/programs/winter.html
Kai has a 45 hour, 3-week course in summer for a good price. Do you know
if they have a winter one? They mention a it but there's no information
there.
I'm leaning towards Tokyo because I really want to experience life
there. If I ever live in Japan longer term it is likely to be Tokyo, so
I want to feel what it is like to be there on a daily basis.
Also there are gaijin houses there. What accomodation is available
near/at Yamasa for around 63,000 a month?
John W.
>
> I'm leaning towards Tokyo because I really want to experience life
> there. If I ever live in Japan longer term it is likely to be Tokyo, so
> I want to feel what it is like to be there on a daily basis.
>
discos, since bars are in every other city)? What is your motivation
for going to Japan? What do you want to accomplish/learn?
IMHO Living in a smaller city has many advantages over Tokyo. Fewer
distractions, less hassle, more access to the traditional things that
draw many foreigners to Japan in the first place, and a lower cost of
living. And in my experience it's much easier to visit live in a rural
area and visit Tokyo than it is to live in Tokyo and visit rural areas.
John W.
necoandjeff
MHO is exactly the opposite. No city offers more excitement in a relatively
safe environment than Tokyo. You can live here for a decade and leave vast
swathes of Tokyo completely untouched, waiting to be explored. Museums,
shopping, night life, traditional arts and sports, concerts (everything from
small harpsichord recitals to Van Halen). You also are much less likely to
be treated like a complete outcast than you are in more rural areas of the
country. And nothing could be easier than taking weekend trips out of the
city to explore the rest of the country. Last Golden Week I hopped on a
train on a complete whim and spent two days walking around and exploring
Asuka. And weekend onsen trips are easy as well. On the other hand, living
in the country and visiting Tokyo for just a day or two is likely to leave
you overwhelemed and lost. You can only really experience Tokyo by living
here. Granted it ain't cheap, but people do get by on meager budgets. And
did I mention how hot the women are in Tokyo? This is truly an awesome city.
Jeff
j...@csse.monash.edu.au
>MHO is exactly the opposite. No city offers more excitement in a relatively
>safe environment than Tokyo. You can live here for a decade and leave vast
>swathes of Tokyo completely untouched, waiting to be explored. Museums,
>shopping, night life, traditional arts and sports, concerts (everything from
>small harpsichord recitals to Van Halen). You also are much less likely to
>be treated like a complete outcast than you are in more rural areas of the
>country. And nothing could be easier than taking weekend trips out of the
>city to explore the rest of the country.
[...]
I agree, although there was a time when I avoided Tokyo like the plague.
It wasn't until I lived there and experienced (some of) its wide
varieties, and explored a few of the urban villages that found I really
liked it.
--
Jim Breen http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Clayton School of Information Technology,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Michael Cash
brought down from the Mount tablets inscribed:
>NC86 wrote:
Tokyo isn't a big city. It's a bunch of little ones that grew
together. Full of fucking hicks.
John W.
>
> MHO is exactly the opposite. No city offers more excitement in a relatively
> safe environment than Tokyo. You can live here for a decade and leave vast
> swathes of Tokyo completely untouched, waiting to be explored. Museums,
> shopping, night life, traditional arts and sports, concerts (everything from
> small harpsichord recitals to Van Halen). You also are much less likely to
> be treated like a complete outcast than you are in more rural areas of the
> country. And nothing could be easier than taking weekend trips out of the
> city to explore the rest of the country. Last Golden Week I hopped on a
> train on a complete whim and spent two days walking around and exploring
> Asuka. And weekend onsen trips are easy as well. On the other hand, living
> in the country and visiting Tokyo for just a day or two is likely to leave
> you overwhelemed and lost. You can only really experience Tokyo by living
> here. Granted it ain't cheap, but people do get by on meager budgets. And
> did I mention how hot the women are in Tokyo? This is truly an awesome city.
>
but you can't take the country out of the boy. :)
John W.
Sean
> Apud necoandjeff <sp...@schrepfer.com> (sci.lang.japan) hoc legimus:
>> MHO is exactly the opposite. No city offers more excitement in a relatively
>> safe environment than Tokyo. You can live here for a decade and leave vast
>> swathes of Tokyo completely untouched, waiting to be explored. Museums,
>> shopping, night life, traditional arts and sports, concerts (everything from
>> small harpsichord recitals to Van Halen). You also are much less likely to
>> be treated like a complete outcast than you are in more rural areas of the
>> country. And nothing could be easier than taking weekend trips out of the
>> city to explore the rest of the country.
>
> [...]
>
> I agree, although there was a time when I avoided Tokyo like the plague.
> It wasn't until I lived there and experienced (some of) its wide
> varieties, and explored a few of the urban villages that found I really
> liked it.
I lived in the Big Mikan for four years, then moved to a small town when we
started procreating. Both have their points. For a young, single person,
Tokyo can be a wonderland of delights. But when you have kids who need to
run and play, the small town is better. JMHO.
P.S. There are parking spaces available in the small towns.
Sean
> Tokyo isn't a big city. It's a bunch of little ones that grew
> together. Full of fucking hicks.
Agree.
Don Kirkman
article <HGJ_e.1078$U51...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>:
>Apud necoandjeff <sp...@schrepfer.com> (sci.lang.japan) hoc legimus:
>>MHO is exactly the opposite. No city offers more excitement in a relatively
>>safe environment than Tokyo. You can live here for a decade and leave vast
>>swathes of Tokyo completely untouched, waiting to be explored. Museums,
>>shopping, night life, traditional arts and sports, concerts (everything from
>>small harpsichord recitals to Van Halen). You also are much less likely to
>>be treated like a complete outcast than you are in more rural areas of the
>>country. And nothing could be easier than taking weekend trips out of the
>>city to explore the rest of the country.
>[...]
>I agree, although there was a time when I avoided Tokyo like the plague.
>It wasn't until I lived there and experienced (some of) its wide
>varieties, and explored a few of the urban villages that found I really
>liked it.
I think I'd agree. My non-Tokyo experience includes the surrounding
parts of old Kokura (now part of Kitakyushu-shi) while I was in the Army
and my wife was a Dept. of the Army contract worker at Camp Kokura,
outlying Yokohama, and Chiba. Chiba was nice but it surely wasn't
Tokyo, which had all we wanted and much more.
--
Don Kirkman
NC86
> distractions, less hassle, more access to the traditional things that
> draw many foreigners to Japan in the first place, and a lower cost of
> living. And in my experience it's much easier to visit live in a rural
> area and visit Tokyo than it is to live in Tokyo and visit rural areas.
But what about the accomodation issue? Tokyo has gaijin houses which fit
my needs exactly (one month stay). I don't know what is available in
other cities.
John W.
Pretty much any major city is going to have gaijin houses. And note
that I'm not necessarily talking about living in the wilderness; I'm
just trying to get you to consider other parts of Japan than Tokyo.
Tokyo is an exciting city to say the least. But it's not the only place
in Japan.
I'm biased because I'm an outdoors person. I'd prefer to live someplace
where I can hop on my bike and ride or go hiking/rock climbing without
spending a good part of the day just getting to the place to do the
activity. When I lived in Kobe I was a few minutes walk from great
restaurants and bars, ten minutes from the main Sannomiya rail station,
and only five minutes walk from some great trails and scenery. For me
it was ideal.
John W.
NC86
> where I can hop on my bike and ride or go hiking/rock climbing without
> spending a good part of the day just getting to the place to do the
> activity. When I lived in Kobe I was a few minutes walk from great
> restaurants and bars, ten minutes from the main Sannomiya rail station,
> and only five minutes walk from some great trails and scenery. For me
> it was ideal.
Coming from a smaller city (pop 1.5 mil) with a very outdoor lifestyle I
am more interested in a huge metropolis like Tokyo.
I have been outside Tokyo - I spent a week in Gifu-shi - but last time I
visited Japan I got almost no opportunity to explore Tokyo.
Nature and scenery are not major novelties to me because I live amongst
it every day.
declan...@hotmail.com
> > I'm biased because I'm an outdoors person. I'd prefer to live someplace
> > where I can hop on my bike and ride or go hiking/rock climbing without
> > spending a good part of the day just getting to the place to do the
> > activity. When I lived in Kobe I was a few minutes walk from great
> > restaurants and bars, ten minutes from the main Sannomiya rail station,
> > and only five minutes walk from some great trails and scenery. For me
> > it was ideal.
>
> Coming from a smaller city (pop 1.5 mil) with a very outdoor lifestyle I
> am more interested in a huge metropolis like Tokyo.
Sounds like you are from Adelaide or Perth. If you can't find a good
school in Tokyo but want to experience the big smoke Japanese style
your only other search options would be Kansai (Osaka/Kobe/Kyoto/Nara)
or the urban part of the Chubu (Nagoya/Toyota/Toyohashi etc). Sapporo &
Fukuoka are basically large country towns, though they feel more like
cities than most parts of Tokyo.
> I have been outside Tokyo - I spent a week in Gifu-shi - but last time I
> visited Japan I got almost no opportunity to explore Tokyo.
>
> Nature and scenery are not major novelties to me because I live amongst
> it every day.
A month is pretty short but should be enough time to explore Tokyo, or
at least those parts you are interested in. I only lived there for
about 18 months but saw pretty much most of what I wanted to.
necoandjeff
> NC86 wrote:
>>> I'm biased because I'm an outdoors person. I'd prefer to live
>>> someplace where I can hop on my bike and ride or go hiking/rock
>>> climbing without spending a good part of the day just getting to
>>> the place to do the activity. When I lived in Kobe I was a few
>>> minutes walk from great restaurants and bars, ten minutes from the
>>> main Sannomiya rail station, and only five minutes walk from some
>>> great trails and scenery. For me it was ideal.
>>
>> Coming from a smaller city (pop 1.5 mil) with a very outdoor
>> lifestyle I am more interested in a huge metropolis like Tokyo.
>
> Sounds like you are from Adelaide or Perth. If you can't find a good
> school in Tokyo but want to experience the big smoke Japanese style
> your only other search options would be Kansai (Osaka/Kobe/Kyoto/Nara)
> or the urban part of the Chubu (Nagoya/Toyota/Toyohashi etc). Sapporo
> & Fukuoka are basically large country towns, though they feel more
> like cities than most parts of Tokyo.
Nagoya is like an even bigger country town. Very unlike Tokyo in many
respects.
B Robson
declan...@hotmail.com wrote:
> NC86 wrote:
>
>>>I'm biased because I'm an outdoors person. I'd prefer to live someplace
>>>where I can hop on my bike and ride or go hiking/rock climbing without
>>>spending a good part of the day just getting to the place to do the
>>>activity. When I lived in Kobe I was a few minutes walk from great
>>>restaurants and bars, ten minutes from the main Sannomiya rail station,
>>>and only five minutes walk from some great trails and scenery. For me
>>>it was ideal.
>>
>>Coming from a smaller city (pop 1.5 mil) with a very outdoor lifestyle I
>>am more interested in a huge metropolis like Tokyo.
>
>
> Sounds like you are from Adelaide or Perth.
Probably Brisbane.
Mate, Tokyoites are a bunch of hicks. I know that unless you come here
you will wonder what it's really like but seriously, you aren't missing
much, unless you want to visit the John Lennon or salt museums. There
are a few good dance clubs, a few good pubs but nothing better than in
Brisbane (except a lot more Japanese girls). There aren't any fantastic
buildings, the one really tall one is the Tokyo goveernment. There
aren't any great temples or gardens. Yes, I like living here and there
is plenty to do but nothing more than Nagoya, Osaka, Fukuoka, Sendai,
Kanazawa or any other reasonable sized city; in fact most of them are
probably better.
B Robson
necoandjeff wrote:
> And nothing could be easier than taking weekend trips out of the
> city to explore the rest of the country. Last Golden Week I hopped on a
> train on a complete whim and spent two days walking around and exploring
> Asuka.
Nara? You spent enough money for two weeks in Thailand/Philipines.
> And did I mention how hot the women are in Tokyo? This is truly an awesome city.
>
Don't. Unless you have a particular fetish for Shibuya girls then no.
Mikawa, Nagoya and Kyoto women are much more attractive. Tokyo women
have no style and make little effort.
NC86
> "kaiinbangou", I could tell you which school they are referring the
> students to.
They said it is A082.
declan...@hotmail.com
This is the actual school
http://www.geos-japanese-insti.co.jp/
This is the school's APJLE entry
http://www.nisshinkyo.org/MemberHome/A082-E.html
Looks like they'll place you in with the long term students.
declan...@hotmail.com
> declan...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Sounds like you are from Adelaide or Perth. If you can't find a good
> > school in Tokyo but want to experience the big smoke Japanese style
> > your only other search options would be Kansai (Osaka/Kobe/Kyoto/Nara)
> > or the urban part of the Chubu (Nagoya/Toyota/Toyohashi etc). Sapporo
> > & Fukuoka are basically large country towns, though they feel more
> > like cities than most parts of Tokyo.
>
> Nagoya is like an even bigger country town.
In the Sydney, LA or Manchester sense yes. The urban area is only 7
million or so, but when you cross the Mikawa-ben & Owari-ben border it
feels like a different city, which I don't hear going from say
Shinagawa down to Yokohama.
> Very unlike Tokyo in many respects.
Fortunately yes. A lot more nonbiri, but becoming obscenely well off.
Main difference between Susukino, Roppongi, Umeda, Nakasu and Sakae is
that Nagoya's district drips money.
necoandjeff
> Mate, Tokyoites are a bunch of hicks. I know that unless you come here
> you will wonder what it's really like but seriously, you aren't
> missing much, unless you want to visit the John Lennon or salt
> museums. There are a few good dance clubs, a few good pubs but
> nothing better than in Brisbane (except a lot more Japanese girls).
> There aren't any fantastic buildings, the one really tall one is the
> Tokyo goveernment. There aren't any great temples or gardens.
Wow. You really need to get out some:
Shrines and Temples:
Meiji Jingu
Asakusa (Sensoji)
Zojoji
Yasukuni Shrine
Sengakuji
Parks and Gardens:
Komazawa Park
Harajuku Park
Yoyogi Park
Hibiya Park
Koishikawa Park
Shiba Park
Ueno Park/Zoo
Hamarikyu
Koishikawa Korakuen
East Gardens (Imperial Palace)
Shinjuku Gyoen
Shopping:
Odaiba
Ginza
Roppongi Hills
Omotesando/Aoyama
necoandjeff
> necoandjeff wrote:
>> And nothing could be easier than taking weekend trips out of the
>> city to explore the rest of the country. Last Golden Week I hopped
>> on a
>> train on a complete whim and spent two days walking around and
>> exploring
>> Asuka.
>
> Nara? You spent enough money for two weeks in Thailand/Philipines.
Didn't I just say Asuka? Sure it's in Nara prefecture, but so are a lot of
other things. And I wouldn't have traded those two days of exploring seventh
century Japanese history for a month in "Thailand/Philipines" [sic].
>> And did I mention how hot the women are in Tokyo? This is truly an
>> awesome city.
>>
>
> Don't. Unless you have a particular fetish for Shibuya girls then no.
> Mikawa, Nagoya and Kyoto women are much more attractive. Tokyo women
> have no style and make little effort.
A fetish for Shibuya girls? Good God, I can't stand those little freaks. And
Tokyo women have no style? Either you need to step out of your apartment
every now and then or your frustration is getting the better of you. I wish
I could tell you not to take all the rejection personally, but hey, there's
always Thailand or the Philippines, right Brett?
Jeff
necoandjeff
> necoandjeff wrote:
>> declan...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>> Sounds like you are from Adelaide or Perth. If you can't find a good
>>> school in Tokyo but want to experience the big smoke Japanese style
>>> your only other search options would be Kansai
>>> (Osaka/Kobe/Kyoto/Nara) or the urban part of the Chubu
>>> (Nagoya/Toyota/Toyohashi etc). Sapporo & Fukuoka are basically
>>> large country towns, though they feel more like cities than most
>>> parts of Tokyo.
>>
>> Nagoya is like an even bigger country town.
>
> In the Sydney, LA or Manchester sense yes. The urban area is only 7
> million or so, but when you cross the Mikawa-ben & Owari-ben border it
> feels like a different city, which I don't hear going from say
> Shinagawa down to Yokohama.
I mean they're a bunch of hicks living in an urban setting (far more hickish
than Tokyo, by a long shot).
Jeff
CL
> necoandjeff wrote:
>>declan...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>>Sounds like you are from Adelaide or Perth. If you can't find a good
>>>school in Tokyo but want to experience the big smoke Japanese style
>>>your only other search options would be Kansai (Osaka/Kobe/Kyoto/Nara)
>>>or the urban part of the Chubu (Nagoya/Toyota/Toyohashi etc). Sapporo
>>>& Fukuoka are basically large country towns, though they feel more
>>>like cities than most parts of Tokyo.
>>
>>Nagoya is like an even bigger country town.
>
> In the Sydney, LA or Manchester sense yes. The urban area is only 7
> million or so, but when you cross the Mikawa-ben & Owari-ben border it
> feels like a different city, which I don't hear going from say
> Shinagawa down to Yokohama.
Then you haven't been listening too closely. Crossing the Tamagawa is
entering a completely different country. When you get to Yokohama you
have to start worrying whether you need your passport. Or, maybe those
infamous Kanto nuances are just too subtle for you ...
>>Very unlike Tokyo in many respects.
>
> Fortunately yes. A lot more nonbiri, but becoming obscenely well off.
> Main difference between Susukino, Roppongi, Umeda, Nakasu and Sakae is
> that Nagoya's district drips money.
For all of the nights I have spent in different Japanese cities on
behalf of clients, I have to say that the least enjoyable have always
been in Nagoya. Then again, I finally learned to stay in Sakae so I
could at least get some decent yakiniku. The degree of unnecessary
ostentation in some parts of Nagoya is positively sickening. And the
government people in the offices I usually have to call on treat me like
a long lost brother in Osaka or Fukuoka or Sapporo but are complete
assholes in Nagoya.
Especially in Nakamura-ku. Let's not get me started on Nakamura-ku's
komuin. At least not until I am friendlier with this here bottle of
mugi-jochu.
CL
CL
> B Robson wrote:
>
>>Mate, Tokyoites are a bunch of hicks. I know that unless you come here
>>you will wonder what it's really like but seriously, you aren't
>>missing much, unless you want to visit the John Lennon or salt
>>museums. There are a few good dance clubs, a few good pubs but
>>nothing better than in Brisbane (except a lot more Japanese girls).
>>There aren't any fantastic buildings, the one really tall one is the
>>Tokyo goveernment. There aren't any great temples or gardens.
>
> Wow. You really need to get out some:
>
> Shrines and Temples:
> Meiji Jingu
> Asakusa (Sensoji)
> Zojoji
> Yasukuni Shrine
> Sengakuji
the collection of small temples on both sides of Meguro-dori from
Meguro-jinja to the intersection with Sakurada-dori
The Shichifukujin temples all over Edo
Daikyoji (on the edge of the Suzugamori execution grounds and has
memorials to many famous Edo-era criminals and houses the special
devices the bakufu thought up to execute some of them -- like the iron
pole Yaoya-shichi was tied to when she was burned at the stake)
> Parks and Gardens:
> Komazawa Park
> Harajuku Park
> Yoyogi Park
> Hibiya Park
> Koishikawa Park
> Shiba Park
> Ueno Park/Zoo
> Hamarikyu
> Koishikawa Korakuen
> East Gardens (Imperial Palace)
> Shinjuku Gyoen
(I forget the name -- the one in Shirokane 5-chome with teh art museum
in one part -- at Kami-Osaki Kosaten)
> Shopping:
> Odaiba
> Ginza
> Roppongi Hills
> Omotesando/Aoyama
Ameyoko
Aomonoyokocho
the shotengai at Mukojima
Kappabashi
John W.
>
> I mean they're a bunch of hicks living in an urban setting (far more hickish
> than Tokyo, by a long shot).
>
Nagoya. I found it to be a city, nothing more, nothing less. Most major
Japanese cities have more or less the same things, the same
attractions, the same fashions, etc. There might be some regional
differences, but not much. The biggest difference is that to get from
the center of Tokyo to its edge seems like it takes forever, which
isn't the case in Nagoya or Osaka.
I spent all of three weeks in Funabashi and while there was a very
good, 20-year-old reason for me to love being there, I hated that it
took an hour or so by train to get to downtown Tokyo, and it was city
the whole way.
John W.
John W.
>
> Mate, Tokyoites are a bunch of hicks. I know that unless you come here
> you will wonder what it's really like but seriously, you aren't missing
> much, unless you want to visit the John Lennon or salt museums. There
> are a few good dance clubs, a few good pubs but nothing better than in
> Brisbane (except a lot more Japanese girls). There aren't any fantastic
> buildings, the one really tall one is the Tokyo goveernment.
>From the top of which you can see nothing unless it's a particularly
smog-free day.
> There
> aren't any great temples or gardens. Yes, I like living here and there
> is plenty to do but nothing more than Nagoya, Osaka, Fukuoka, Sendai,
> Kanazawa or any other reasonable sized city; in fact most of them are
> probably better.
I've personally never understood the fascination with Tokyo, among
foreigners or Japanese. It's really just a big city with major
pollution, far too much noise, and way to many people all trying to get
on the same train as me.
John W.
B Robson
> B Robson wrote:
>
>
>>Mate, Tokyoites are a bunch of hicks. I know that unless you come here
>>you will wonder what it's really like but seriously, you aren't
>>missing much, unless you want to visit the John Lennon or salt
>>museums. There are a few good dance clubs, a few good pubs but
>>nothing better than in Brisbane (except a lot more Japanese girls).
>>There aren't any fantastic buildings, the one really tall one is the
>>Tokyo goveernment. There aren't any great temples or gardens.
>
>
> Wow. You really need to get out some:
In fact *you* need to see some of Japan.
>
> Shrines and Temples:
wow a list of shitty temples and shrines
> Meiji Jingu
2 shitty buildings you can barely approach. The grounds might be
interesting if you could sit and enjoy them.
> Asakusa (Sensoji)
Great place to buy some cheap shitty omiyage; possibly the ugliest
temple in Japan. I've been dragged there for 3 new years and I will
refuse this year.
> Zojoji
is that the one near Tokoyo Tower? My local temple is about as good as
that. At least it's got some nice trees.
> Yasukuni Shrine
cough, I work over the road from Yasukuni. What exactly is "great" about
it? The huge metal mon? The big gates are impressive and it's a good
spot for drinking at the occasional matsuri and the museum is an eye
opener; but like all Tokyo 社寺, nothing impressive and the grounds are
ugly.
> Sengakuji
of minor historical interest certainly not pretty or "great".
Even little Nagoya does better than that.
>
> Parks and Gardens:
> Komazawa Park
not been
> Harajuku Park
Ugly, at least you can check out the journalists and camera crews
checking out the cosplay girls. By the way it's name is ...
> Yoyogi Park
> Hibiya Park
yes, nice, we'll call this the Greater Imperial Palace gardens and
include Kitanomarukoen.
> Koishikawa Park
dont know it
> Shiba Park
what's the name of the expressway going past?
> Ueno Park/Zoo
hahahahaha, yes nice lawns, also nice blue tents. However the existence
of Ueno Zoological Gardens totally invalidates this.
> Hamarikyu
if this is the one I think it is, it's the noisiest park in the world
> Koishikawa Korakuen
Is this different to Koishikawa Park? Or are you counting twice again?
> East Gardens (Imperial Palace)
again lots of grass which is unusual for Japan.
> Shinjuku Gyoen
it's not that good.
Out of all of the that we have the Imperial gardens and Shinjuku.
>
> Shopping:
> Odaiba
> Ginza
> Roppongi Hills
> Omotesando/Aoyama
You are joking? Are you trying to tell us you are gay? Roppongi Hills?
Omotesando?
You didn't give us a list of great buildings. There's the Tokyo MG, the
Fuji TV and the golden turd and the red and white Eiffel Tower. Know any
*good* ones?
For the capital of the world's second largest and a population of 25
million (?) (greater Kanto) it's pretty pathetic. Are you from Alabama?
B Robson
> B Robson wrote:
>
>>necoandjeff wrote:
>>
>>>And nothing could be easier than taking weekend trips out of the
>>>city to explore the rest of the country. Last Golden Week I hopped
>>>on a
>>>train on a complete whim and spent two days walking around and
>>>exploring
>>>Asuka.
>>
>>Nara? You spent enough money for two weeks in Thailand/Philipines.
>
>
> Didn't I just say Asuka? Sure it's in Nara prefecture, but so are a lot of
> other things. And I wouldn't have traded those two days of exploring seventh
> century Japanese history for a month in "Thailand/Philipines" [sic].
>
So nothing you are saying has any relation to a university student
wanting to study Japanese for a month. It's just you having a wank about
Japan.
You should really give up on seventh century Japanese history and go to
the Land of Smiles, you might get laid and even better you might find
someone who can dislodge that stick from your arse.
>
>>>And did I mention how hot the women are in Tokyo? This is truly an
>>>awesome city.
>>>
>>
>>Don't. Unless you have a particular fetish for Shibuya girls then no.
>>Mikawa, Nagoya and Kyoto women are much more attractive. Tokyo women
>>have no style and make little effort.
>
>
> A fetish for Shibuya girls? Good God, I can't stand those little freaks. And
> Tokyo women have no style? Either you need to step out of your apartment
> every now and then or your frustration is getting the better of you. I wish
> I could tell you not to take all the rejection personally, but hey, there's
> always Thailand or the Philippines, right Brett?
>
That's pretty funny coming from someone who hasn't got laid in over 12
months, ahh the memories. I guess your interest in exploring seventh
century Japanese history helps keep your thoughts above your waist.
I visited Mikawa earlier in the year for a wedding and the first thing I
noticed when I got off the shink was how much more attractive the women
were. But if you prefer the sad downtrodden look, that's fine.
B Robson
Let's stop with the boring lists of places. If you can't mention ONE
place that is worthy of note and why then please just shut up.
necoandjeff
> necoandjeff wrote:
>>
>> I mean they're a bunch of hicks living in an urban setting (far more
>> hickish than Tokyo, by a long shot).
>>
> Sounds like you've picked up the Japanese distaste for all things
> Nagoya.
My first year living in Japan was spent in Nagoya. I had no particular
reason to dislike it until I lived in Tokyo and was able to compare the two.
I could never live in Nagoya again and I don't particularly like going back
to visit, although I still have a number of very good friends who live
there.
Jeff
Ben Finney
> wow a list of shitty temples and shrines
> 2 shitty buildings you can barely approach.
> Great place to buy some cheap shitty omiyage; possibly the ugliest
> temple in Japan. I've been dragged there for 3 new years and I will
> refuse this year.
> You are joking? Are you trying to tell us you are gay? Roppongi
> Hills? Omotesando?
This from someone who accuses others of having a stick up their arse.
--
\ "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love |
`\ not freedom, but license." -- John Milton |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
necoandjeff
> necoandjeff wrote:
>> B Robson wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Mate, Tokyoites are a bunch of hicks. I know that unless you come
>>> here you will wonder what it's really like but seriously, you aren't
>>> missing much, unless you want to visit the John Lennon or salt
>>> museums. There are a few good dance clubs, a few good pubs but
>>> nothing better than in Brisbane (except a lot more Japanese girls).
>>> There aren't any fantastic buildings, the one really tall one is the
>>> Tokyo goveernment. There aren't any great temples or gardens.
>>
>>
>> Wow. You really need to get out some:
>
> In fact *you* need to see some of Japan.
In fact, I've seen most of it, from Sapporo to Goto Retto, including
Shikoku.
>>
>> Shrines and Temples:
>
> wow a list of shitty temples and shrines
> 2 shitty buildings
> Great place to buy some cheap shitty omiyage; possibly the ugliest
> temple in Japan. I've been dragged there for 3 new years and I will
> refuse this year.
I pity you Brett. You're stuck in Japan because you've been here too long,
and your life here is miserable.
>> Zojoji
>
> is that the one near Tokoyo Tower? My local temple is about as good as
> that. At least it's got some nice trees.
>
>> Yasukuni Shrine
>
> cough, I work over the road from Yasukuni. What exactly is "great"
> about it? The huge metal mon? The big gates are impressive and it's a
> good spot for drinking at the occasional matsuri and the museum is an
> eye opener; but like all Tokyo 社寺, nothing impressive and the grounds
> are ugly.
The beautiful pond and garden are what I remember most about it.
>> Sengakuji
>
> of minor historical interest certainly not pretty or "great".
>
> Even little Nagoya does better than that.
>
>
>>
>> Parks and Gardens:
>> Komazawa Park
>
> not been
Perhaps one of the best parks in Tokyo, built for the Tokyo olympics. And
lots of approachable, attractive, women who aren't little Shibuya punks like
you're obviously used to hanging around.
>> Harajuku Park
>
> Ugly, at least you can check out the journalists and camera crews
> checking out the cosplay girls. By the way it's name is ...
>
>> Yoyogi Park
Yep. That was a brain fart. I've been back in Tokyo for a year now, and to
be honest, I have only been to Shibuya once and haven't been to Yoyogi Park
at all. There have been plenty of other great places to frequent. For some
reason I was thinking there was a separate park but it's the same one.
>> Hibiya Park
>
> yes, nice, we'll call this the Greater Imperial Palace gardens and
> include Kitanomarukoen.
>
>> Koishikawa Park
>
> dont know it
Well, it's actual name is Koishikawa Shokubutsuen. You go on about how Tokyo
has no good gardens and you haven't even visited perhaps the best one. This
was on the grounds of the Mito-han Kamiyashiki back in the Edo Period (which
took up most of the area West of Korakuen/Tokyo Dome back in the day). Like
I said, you need to get out more.
>> Shiba Park
>
> what's the name of the expressway going past?
>
>> Ueno Park/Zoo
>
> hahahahaha, yes nice lawns, also nice blue tents. However the
> existence of Ueno Zoological Gardens totally invalidates this.
I admit the zoo is pretty shitty. But the Sakura are beautiful. And the
biggest reason I mentioned it is the collection of museums.
>> Hamarikyu
>
> if this is the one I think it is, it's the noisiest park in the world
Then it isn't the one you are thinking of.
>> Koishikawa Korakuen
>
> Is this different to Koishikawa Park? Or are you counting twice again?
This is next door to Tokyo Dome. Different park.
>> East Gardens (Imperial Palace)
>
> again lots of grass which is unusual for Japan.
>
>> Shinjuku Gyoen
>
> it's not that good.
>
> Out of all of the that we have the Imperial gardens and Shinjuku.
>
>
>>
>> Shopping:
>> Odaiba
>> Ginza
>> Roppongi Hills
>> Omotesando/Aoyama
>
> You are joking? Are you trying to tell us you are gay? Roppongi Hills?
> Omotesando?
I didn't realize you have to be gay to enjoy doing something other than
hanging out in sleazy Shibuya teenager bars. Aren't you getting up there
yourself, Brett?
> You didn't give us a list of great buildings. There's the Tokyo MG,
> the Fuji TV and the golden turd and the red and white Eiffel Tower.
> Know any *good* ones?
>
> For the capital of the world's second largest and a population of 25
> million (?) (greater Kanto) it's pretty pathetic. Are you from
> Alabama?
Like I said, I pity you.
Jeff
Paul Blay
> Let's stop with the boring lists of places. If you can't mention ONE
> place that is worthy of note and why then please just shut up.
Well that sure told _them_.
necoandjeff
> necoandjeff wrote:
>
>> B Robson wrote:
>>
>>> necoandjeff wrote:
>>>
>>>> And nothing could be easier than taking weekend trips out of the
>>>> city to explore the rest of the country. Last Golden Week I hopped
>>>> on a
>>>> train on a complete whim and spent two days walking around and
>>>> exploring
>>>> Asuka.
>>>
>>> Nara? You spent enough money for two weeks in Thailand/Philipines.
>>
>>
>> Didn't I just say Asuka? Sure it's in Nara prefecture, but so are a
>> lot of other things. And I wouldn't have traded those two days of
>> exploring seventh century Japanese history for a month in
>> "Thailand/Philipines" [sic].
>>
>
> So nothing you are saying has any relation to a university student
> wanting to study Japanese for a month. It's just you having a wank
> about Japan.
You should try paying attention. I was responding to a comment about how
easy it is to live in the country and visit Tokyo, with an example of
hopping on the train and visiting the country from Tokyo. It was a comment
to John W.
> You should really give up on seventh century Japanese history and go
> to the Land of Smiles, you might get laid and even better you might
> find someone who can dislodge that stick from your arse.
That's your idea of getting laid? You are having a pretty rough time in
Tokyo.
>>
>>>> And did I mention how hot the women are in Tokyo? This is truly an
>>>> awesome city.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Don't. Unless you have a particular fetish for Shibuya girls then
>>> no. Mikawa, Nagoya and Kyoto women are much more attractive. Tokyo
>>> women have no style and make little effort.
>>
>>
>> A fetish for Shibuya girls? Good God, I can't stand those little
>> freaks. And Tokyo women have no style? Either you need to step out
>> of your apartment every now and then or your frustration is getting
>> the better of you. I wish I could tell you not to take all the
>> rejection personally, but hey, there's always Thailand or the
>> Philippines, right Brett?
>>
>
> That's pretty funny coming from someone who hasn't got laid in over 12
> months, ahh the memories. I guess your interest in exploring seventh
> century Japanese history helps keep your thoughts above your waist.
I got over that stage of my life years ago, Brett. Marriage and a daughter
will do that to a guy. You'll have to take my word for it.
> I visited Mikawa earlier in the year for a wedding and the first
> thing I noticed when I got off the shink was how much more attractive
> the women were. But if you prefer the sad downtrodden look, that's
> fine.
I can only conclude you have no clue at all what you are talking about. And
given the places you apparently like to hang out, it's not a wonder really.
Jeff
CL
> Let's stop with the boring lists of places. If you can't mention ONE place that is worthy of note and why then please just shut up.
Okay, Ikegami Honmonji. It's the place where Nichiren died and is the
original temple of the Nichiren sect. An interesting reliquary with a
bust of Nichiren carved by his disciples, plus an altar carved by his
students. The cemetery is where the Mito clan put all of their
almost-Tokugawa relatives as well as the famous people the Tokugawa kept
hostage. The stone steps were built by Kato Kiyomasa around 1600 and it
has a five-story pagoda that was built in the 1660s. From the monks
grave area you can see Fuji-san in the mornings and there is an overlook
close to the main stairs that gives you a view from Shinagawa to
Yokohama (which is why it was an observation post during WWII). The
steps end at a very large stone square that used to be the boat dock you
had to go to to reach the temple (it's now about 7km inland). Famous
graves include Koda Rohan, Mori Ranmaru, all the members of the famous
Kato sword fighting family, Rikidozan, a whole bunch of prime ministers,
all of the female members of the eighth shoguns family, and a bunch of
famous politicians, actors, cinematographers, authors of the Bakumatsu
era to the present ... as well as the grave containing the remains of
the enlisted crew of the U.S.S. Oneida, the Civil War era wooden
sidewheel battleship whose captain was second in command to David
Farragut -- ran the blockade at St. Petersburg, broke the chain across
the Mississippi, and captured the ironclad C.S.S. Tennessee at the
Battle of Mobile Bay only to be stationed in Japan and cut in half by a
P&O steamer which failed to yield the right of way on the evening of 28
January 1870. The P&O ship left the scene of the accident to make
Yokohama on schedule allowing the Oneida to sink with all officers and
NCOs still aboard.
Your turn.
CL
John W.
To me the dislike for Tokyo is less the count of good places to visit
and more just the place itself. There are tons of good things about
Tokyo. But the negatives (crowds, smell, pollution, sheer size of the
metro area) outweigh the positives. Even if I worked in Tokyo I'd get a
place at some shinkansen station an hour or so away and fork over any
travel expense the job wouldn't pay for.
John W.
B Robson
Fuck Jeff, you dare lecture me about good spots and you couldn't even
have fun in Nagoya. I take it back, you couldn't even have a good time
in Thailand. You really are from Alabama aren't you?
necoandjeff
Where did I say I couldn't have fun in Nagoya? I had lots of fun in Nagoya.
B Robson
> In sci.lang.japan, B Robson <greg-the-...@tism.com.au> wrote:
>
>>wow a list of shitty temples and shrines
>>[...]
>>2 shitty buildings you can barely approach.
>>[...]
>>Great place to buy some cheap shitty omiyage; possibly the ugliest
>>temple in Japan. I've been dragged there for 3 new years and I will
>>refuse this year.
>>[...]
>>You are joking? Are you trying to tell us you are gay? Roppongi
>>Hills? Omotesando?
>
>
> This from someone who accuses others of having a stick up their arse.
>
sorry about the gay crack, I didn't mean to offend.
\ "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love |
`\ not freedom, but license." -- John Milton |
_o__) |
Ben Finn
Love this, ASCII art is so 1987. However lame literary quotations are
timeless.
John W.
I think when you said you could never live there again and don't like
going back to visit the implication was quite clear that you can't have
fun in Nagoya (in the present). To me it does sound like the typical
Japanese distaste of Nagoya.
John W.
John W.
> Ben Finney wrote:
> > In sci.lang.japan, B Robson <greg-the-...@tism.com.au> wrote:
> >
> >>wow a list of shitty temples and shrines
> >>[...]
> >>2 shitty buildings you can barely approach.
> >>[...]
> >>Great place to buy some cheap shitty omiyage; possibly the ugliest
> >>temple in Japan. I've been dragged there for 3 new years and I will
> >>refuse this year.
> >>[...]
> >>You are joking? Are you trying to tell us you are gay? Roppongi
> >>Hills? Omotesando?
> >
> >
> > This from someone who accuses others of having a stick up their arse.
> >
>
> sorry about the gay crack,
I think it's too late to apologize for you gay crack.
John W.
B Robson
> B Robson wrote:
>
>>necoandjeff wrote:
>>
>>>B Robson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Mate, Tokyoites are a bunch of hicks. I know that unless you come
>>>>here you will wonder what it's really like but seriously, you aren't
>>>>missing much, unless you want to visit the John Lennon or salt
>>>>museums. There are a few good dance clubs, a few good pubs but
>>>>nothing better than in Brisbane (except a lot more Japanese girls).
>>>>There aren't any fantastic buildings, the one really tall one is the
>>>>Tokyo goveernment. There aren't any great temples or gardens.
>>>
>>>
>>>Wow. You really need to get out some:
>>
>>In fact *you* need to see some of Japan.
>
>
> In fact, I've seen most of it, from Sapporo to Goto Retto, including
> Shikoku.
And you think Tokyo is the best place to live? Start again.
>
>
>>>Shrines and Temples:
>>
>>wow a list of shitty temples and shrines
>>2 shitty buildings
>>Great place to buy some cheap shitty omiyage; possibly the ugliest
>>temple in Japan. I've been dragged there for 3 new years and I will
>>refuse this year.
>
>
> I pity you Brett. You're stuck in Japan because you've been here too long,
> and your life here is miserable.
hahaha. Yeah, if that makes you feel better. I'm stuck here because
Australia only has electricity for 3 hours a day so there is no call for
network engineers and there is someone living in my North Sydney
apartment. And I've forgotten the English words for ルータ and スイッ
チ. And I can't use a knife and fork.
>
>
>>>Zojoji
>>
>>is that the one near Tokoyo Tower? My local temple is about as good as
>>that. At least it's got some nice trees.
>>
>>
>>>Yasukuni Shrine
>>
>>cough, I work over the road from Yasukuni. What exactly is "great"
>>about it? The huge metal mon? The big gates are impressive and it's a
>>good spot for drinking at the occasional matsuri and the museum is an
>>eye opener; but like all Tokyo 社寺, nothing impressive and the grounds
>>are ugly.
>
>
> The beautiful pond and garden are what I remember most about it.
Your memory is faulty.
>
>
>>>Sengakuji
>>
>>of minor historical interest certainly not pretty or "great".
>>
>>Even little Nagoya does better than that.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Parks and Gardens:
>>>Komazawa Park
>>
>>not been
>
>
> Perhaps one of the best parks in Tokyo, built for the Tokyo olympics. And
> lots of approachable, attractive, women who aren't little Shibuya punks like
> you're obviously used to hanging around.
Seems you think every park with more than 2 trees is the best park in Tokyo.
>
>
>>>Harajuku Park
>>
>>Ugly, at least you can check out the journalists and camera crews
>>checking out the cosplay girls. By the way it's name is ...
>>
>>
>>>Yoyogi Park
>
>
> Yep. That was a brain fart. I've been back in Tokyo for a year now, and to
> be honest, I have only been to Shibuya once and haven't been to Yoyogi Park
> at all. There have been plenty of other great places to frequent. For some
> reason I was thinking there was a separate park but it's the same one.
It has two train stations, that was probably what threw you. Oh, and the
fact you like to talk shit.
>
>
>>>Hibiya Park
>>
>>yes, nice, we'll call this the Greater Imperial Palace gardens and
>>include Kitanomarukoen.
>>
>>
>>>Koishikawa Park
>>
>>dont know it
>
>
> Well, it's actual name is Koishikawa Shokubutsuen. You go on about how Tokyo
> has no good gardens and you haven't even visited perhaps the best one. This
> was on the grounds of the Mito-han Kamiyashiki back in the Edo Period (which
> took up most of the area West of Korakuen/Tokyo Dome back in the day). Like
> I said, you need to get out more.
Let me guess, it's got three trees and is one of the best parks in
Tokyo. I'll race out tomorrow, I'm sure that will change my opinion and
I will come to agree that Tokyo has the best gardens in Japan.
>
>
>>>Shiba Park
>>
>>what's the name of the expressway going past?
>>
>>
>>>Ueno Park/Zoo
>>
>>hahahahaha, yes nice lawns, also nice blue tents. However the
>>existence of Ueno Zoological Gardens totally invalidates this.
>
>
> I admit the zoo is pretty shitty. But the Sakura are beautiful.
for 3 days a year.
> And the
> biggest reason I mentioned it is the collection of museums.
>
Yes been to a few of them. Looking at sword blades gets tedious after
the first 100 or so, unless there are some from the key seventh century
period. I could look at those all day. Then there is the Egypt section
with a so called mummy and peice of turquoise. My favourite exhibit was
a broken peice of a ceramic tile from a Korean temple, I guess all the
good Korean stuff is in private hands. Not sure if that was from the
fascinating seventh century or not.
Have you been to a museum in any other major city in the world?
While we are on it, let's talk about art. I lined up and paid 1500 for a
Van Gough exhibition that had exactly two of his originals (under bad
light). Guess that saves me a trip to Europe.
>
>>>Hamarikyu
>>
>>if this is the one I think it is, it's the noisiest park in the world
>
>
> Then it isn't the one you are thinking of.
>
This no doubt Tokyo's best park as well.
Well it's got an expressway going past it like all good Tokyo parks so
it must be up there. Of course the Imperial gardens have an expressway
going through the middle so they must be the best.
>
>>>Koishikawa Korakuen
>>
>>Is this different to Koishikawa Park? Or are you counting twice again?
>
>
> This is next door to Tokyo Dome. Different park.
>
>
>>>East Gardens (Imperial Palace)
>>
>>again lots of grass which is unusual for Japan.
>>
>>
>>>Shinjuku Gyoen
>>
>>it's not that good.
>>
>>Out of all of the that we have the Imperial gardens and Shinjuku.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Shopping:
>>>Odaiba
>>>Ginza
>>>Roppongi Hills
>>>Omotesando/Aoyama
>>
>>You are joking? Are you trying to tell us you are gay? Roppongi Hills?
>>Omotesando?
>
>
> I didn't realize you have to be gay to enjoy doing something other than
> hanging out in sleazy Shibuya teenager bars. Aren't you getting up there
> yourself, Brett?
See that's the problem, you think the alternative to going to shitty
parks and ugly temples is hanging out in sleazy bars. That's why you are
the most boring person that ever touched a computer (or maybe I have the
cause and effect reversed). Are you really as boring as this in real life?
>
>
>>You didn't give us a list of great buildings. There's the Tokyo MG,
>>the Fuji TV and the golden turd and the red and white Eiffel Tower.
>>Know any *good* ones?
>>
>>For the capital of the world's second largest and a population of 25
>>million (?) (greater Kanto) it's pretty pathetic. Are you from
>>Alabama?
>
>
> Like I said, I pity you.
Why? Because I am not taking the opportunity to visit shitty parks, ugly
temples, and not taking an interest in seventh century Japanese history?
Before you die or go back to Alabama you should really go to a city that
has lovely parks and good shopping areas. Oh, and nice architecture,
museums worth the admission price and art galleries.
necoandjeff
I disagree. All I said is that I couldn't live there. I couldn't live there
because I think there is a much better alternative. But when I'm there I
certainly have fun. As I said, I still have a lot of friends there. I
couldn't go back and live with my parents again either, but that doesn't
mean that I don't have a great time when I visit them.
And I've only heard the "typical Japanese distate of Nagoya" from people who
have actually been there. Do you think it is all just a coincidence that
people who have been there often feel that way about the place? There is a
distaste of New Jersey too by a lot of people who have been there. Having
been there myself too, I don't think it is just everyone's imagination.
Jeff
B Robson
I had to leave Nagoya for medical reasons. My liver was giving out.
B Robson
Well I am sorry about my gay crack.
B Robson
Your dad is into seventh century Japanese history too? Christmas must be
a riot.
>
> And I've only heard the "typical Japanese distate of Nagoya" from people who
> have actually been there.
It's the miso.
B Robson
reliquary? You swallow a dictionary?
I hope that was a cut and paste.
Every rock in Tokyo has history. Some samurai pissed on it or sat on it
or Basho wrote 42 haiku about it, doesn't make Tokyo a great city.
Kyomizudera is fucking awesome. It's massive but unfortunately the sun
is in the wrong place so get there early morning. Apparently some famous
priest did something interesting there and his disciples did something
too, which makes the history of the place very historic (I don't think
it was built in the very interesting historic seventh century period).
It's got some dead people too, which makes it even more historic.
There's a Starbucks near Yasaka Jinja so you can walk back that way for
a afternoon cuppa.
B Robson
> B Robson wrote:
>
>>necoandjeff wrote:
>>
>>
>>>B Robson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>necoandjeff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>And nothing could be easier than taking weekend trips out of the
>>>>>city to explore the rest of the country. Last Golden Week I hopped
>>>>>on a
>>>>>train on a complete whim and spent two days walking around and
>>>>>exploring
>>>>>Asuka.
>>>>
>>>>Nara? You spent enough money for two weeks in Thailand/Philipines.
>>>
>>>
>>>Didn't I just say Asuka? Sure it's in Nara prefecture, but so are a
>>>lot of other things. And I wouldn't have traded those two days of
>>>exploring seventh century Japanese history for a month in
>>>"Thailand/Philipines" [sic].
>>>
>>
>>So nothing you are saying has any relation to a university student
>>wanting to study Japanese for a month. It's just you having a wank
>> about Japan.
>
>
> You should try paying attention. I was responding to a comment about how
> easy it is to live in the country and visit Tokyo, with an example of
> hopping on the train and visiting the country from Tokyo. It was a comment
> to John W.
Which is what I said, you are just having a wank. I am sure John W is
even less interested than the OP.
>
>>You should really give up on seventh century Japanese history and go
>>to the Land of Smiles, you might get laid and even better you might
>>find someone who can dislodge that stick from your arse.
>
>
> That's your idea of getting laid? You are having a pretty rough time in
> Tokyo.
No, it's my tip for *you* getting laid. Don't worry, her indoors won't
even know.
>
>
>>>>>And did I mention how hot the women are in Tokyo? This is truly an
>>>>>awesome city.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Don't. Unless you have a particular fetish for Shibuya girls then
>>>>no. Mikawa, Nagoya and Kyoto women are much more attractive. Tokyo
>>>>women have no style and make little effort.
>>>
>>>
>>>A fetish for Shibuya girls? Good God, I can't stand those little
>>>freaks. And Tokyo women have no style? Either you need to step out
>>>of your apartment every now and then or your frustration is getting
>>>the better of you. I wish I could tell you not to take all the
>>>rejection personally, but hey, there's always Thailand or the
>>>Philippines, right Brett?
>>>
>>
>>That's pretty funny coming from someone who hasn't got laid in over 12
>>months, ahh the memories. I guess your interest in exploring seventh
>>century Japanese history helps keep your thoughts above your waist.
>
>
> I got over that stage of my life years ago, Brett. Marriage and a daughter
> will do that to a guy. You'll have to take my word for it.
Thanks for the tip, must suck to be an old man at your age. I hope I can
do better than exploring seventh century Japanese history in Nara when
I'm old.
>
>
>>I visited Mikawa earlier in the year for a wedding and the first
>>thing I noticed when I got off the shink was how much more attractive
>>the women were. But if you prefer the sad downtrodden look, that's
>>fine.
>
>
> I can only conclude you have no clue at all what you are talking about. And
> given the places you apparently like to hang out, it's not a wonder really.
>
You know the Mikawa area, you can see it from the Tokaido Skin about 60
minutes out of Tokyo.
necoandjeff
>>>> Yasukuni Shrine
>>>
>>> cough, I work over the road from Yasukuni. What exactly is "great"
>>> about it? The huge metal mon? The big gates are impressive and it's
>>> a good spot for drinking at the occasional matsuri and the museum
>>> is an eye opener; but like all Tokyo 社寺, nothing impressive and the
>>> grounds are ugly.
>>
>>
>> The beautiful pond and garden are what I remember most about it.
>
> Your memory is faulty.
Let's see, shall we?
http://www.schrepfer.com/photos/yasukuni1.jpg
http://www.schrepfer.com/photos/yasukuni2.jpg
Yep. Just how I remember it.
Anyway, I'm going to do something I should have done a long time ago. Off to
the killfile you go, Brett. I hope one day you can get out of your miserable
funk and start to enjoy life.
Jeff
B Robson
> B Robson wrote:
>
>
>>>>>Yasukuni Shrine
>>>>
>>>>cough, I work over the road from Yasukuni. What exactly is "great"
>>>>about it? The huge metal mon? The big gates are impressive and it's
>>>>a good spot for drinking at the occasional matsuri and the museum
>>>>is an eye opener; but like all Tokyo 社寺, nothing impressive and the
>>>>grounds are ugly.
>>>
>>>
>>>The beautiful pond and garden are what I remember most about it.
>>
>>Your memory is faulty.
>
>
> Let's see, shall we?
>
> http://www.schrepfer.com/photos/yasukuni1.jpg
> http://www.schrepfer.com/photos/yasukuni2.jpg
>
> Yep. Just how I remember it.
>
That is your idea of a beautiful pond and garden? Jesus H Christ.
> Anyway, I'm going to do something I should have done a long time ago. Off to
> the killfile you go, Brett. I hope one day you can get out of your miserable
> funk and start to enjoy life.
>
Well listening to you try to convince me that Tokyo is really a city
full of beautiful parks and wonderful museums has really been a bright
spot in my "miserable funk".
B Robson
BTW, I've forgotten, are you a lawyer? Because you display all the
attributes of one.
Sean
> See that's the problem, you think the alternative to going to shitty
> parks and ugly temples is hanging out in sleazy bars. That's why you are
> the most boring person that ever touched a computer (snip)
Nope, that would be me.
Paul Blay
NC86
>>
>>In fact *you* need to see some of Japan.
>
>
> In fact, I've seen most of it, from Sapporo to Goto Retto, including
> Shikoku.
Why do gaigin have this attitude that it's so important to see a lot of
the country. Isn't it a bit strange that you have probably seen more of
Japan than the average Japanese person?
Non-Tokyo is a huge collection of boring 500,000人 cities. They're all
the same.
It's like the foreign visitors to Australia who have seen more of the
country than a local ever would. As an Australian I have no interest in
venturing into the outback yet foreigners insist that it is "the real
Australia".
necoandjeff
>>>> Wow. You really need to get out some:
>>>
>>> In fact *you* need to see some of Japan.
>>
>>
>> In fact, I've seen most of it, from Sapporo to Goto Retto, including
>> Shikoku.
>
> Why do gaigin have this attitude that it's so important to see a lot
> of the country. Isn't it a bit strange that you have probably seen
> more of Japan than the average Japanese person?
I don't do it because I feel it is important, nor do I measure the
strangeness of my actions by the standard of the Average Japanese person. I
do it because I enjoy it, pure and simple. I'm American and one of my most
memorable vacations was a 6 week driving tour of the United States that my
wife and I did about 4 years ago. And the fact that you may have no interest
in seeing Japan, Australia or wherever gives me no distress whatsoever.
Jeff
j...@csse.monash.edu.au
>> In fact, I've seen most of it, from Sapporo to Goto Retto, including
>> Shikoku.
Haven't been to Shikoku yet. Trying to factor it in.
>Why do gaigin have this attitude that it's so important to see a lot of
>the country. Isn't it a bit strange that you have probably seen more of
>Japan than the average Japanese person?
Um, no. That's the same with visitors everywhere. Having made the investment
in travel time and money you want to make the most of it.
>Non-Tokyo is a huge collection of boring 500,000人 cities. They're all
>the same.
Er, no. In their own ways they are different and interesting. It's the same
everywhere. I have spent about 6 months in Paris, and never tire of it,
but I also love poking around other bits of France. They're all different.
Ditto Japan. Ditto UK, etc. etc.
>It's like the foreign visitors to Australia who have seen more of the
>country than a local ever would.
Well, many locals. Not all.
>As an Australian I have no interest in
>venturing into the outback yet foreigners insist that it is "the real
>Australia".
They may be right. I haven't been to Uluru, etc., but I have been
to the Pilbara (working). I'm planning a trip to the Flinders Ranges next
year. I'm still working on my wife about the big 12-month trip right
around the coast (joining the famous grey army).
Enjoy life's rich tapestry while you can.
--
Jim Breen http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Clayton School of Information Technology,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
John W.
>
> Why do gaigin have this attitude that it's so important to see a lot of
> the country. Isn't it a bit strange that you have probably seen more of
> Japan than the average Japanese person?
>
is that some small part of them likes to travel. The job isn't why most
people go; there are very few jobs you can do in Japan that you can't
do with greater ease in your home country. We go to a foreign country
to work because we want to go to a foreign country. Why go if you only
see Tokyo and never anyplace else?
> Non-Tokyo is a huge collection of boring 500,000人 cities. They're all
> the same.
>
Ever been to any of them? For starters, I'd wager there are more sites
of cultural importance in Kansai than in any other region of Japan, and
Kansai as an urban area rivals Tokyo in size. Also, those 500,000
person cities are by and large the same as Tokyo, just on a smaller
scale. Same restaurants (with some regional deviations), same or
similar stores selling the same goods, same pachinko parlors (except
those rare places where they aren't allowed; Tottori used to be one
such place, and it's eerie in a way), etc. Himeji, for example, might
not have the dance clubs of Tokyo or Osaka, but it's got ample places
to eat and drink, work opportunity, great access, and is much less
hectic than Tokyo.
> It's like the foreign visitors to Australia who have seen more of the
> country than a local ever would. As an Australian I have no interest in
> venturing into the outback yet foreigners insist that it is "the real
> Australia".
I'd wager that the people who travel to live/work in Japan (or any
foreign country) know a great deal about their home countries. I've
traveled all over the US, probably more than anyone American I know.
One reason I'm not a fan of Tokyo is that when I first went to Japan 13
years ago I found the foreign popluation of Tokyo stuck up and
distinctly rude, whereas outside of Tokyo it was very easy to strike up
a conversation with someone and learn about places to visit, work,
live, etc.
John W.
NC86
> strangeness of my actions by the standard of the Average Japanese person. I
> do it because I enjoy it, pure and simple. I'm American and one of my most
> memorable vacations was a 6 week driving tour of the United States that my
> wife and I did about 4 years ago. And the fact that you may have no interest
> in seeing Japan, Australia or wherever gives me no distress whatsoever.
And yet you choose to live in Tokyo for the 46 weeks a year that you
aren't on holidays. There's nothing wrong with wanting to spend 4 weeks
there on my limited budget.
I need to focus on daily life, I can't afford to be touring around any
country for 6 weeks.
necoandjeff
I'm one of the ones in favor of you coming to Tokyo. The bit about traveling
out of Tokyo was in response to a comment about the ease of visiting Tokyo
from the countryside and vice versa.
Jeff
necoandjeff
> One reason I'm not a fan of Tokyo is that when I first went to Japan
> 13 years ago I found the foreign popluation of Tokyo stuck up and
> distinctly rude
We still are... ;)
CL
No, I'm multisyllabic. I know, it's kind of embarrassing to say that in
public and my family doesn't like talking about it, but there you are.
It's out in the open now and I'll just have to live with the consequences.
> I hope that was a cut and paste.
No, it wasn't. Some of us know big whole chunks about small things. I
can do the same rap on most of the temples in Nara, including
comparisons of the architecture and the statuary. During trips with
friends and business associates, I've had priests come out and tell me
that they don't know many Japanese who can do as well and I've had
Japanese ask us if they can join my little tour. It's also occasionally
possible to get invited back to the kura to view the temple treasures if
the right priest overhears you.
> Every rock in Tokyo has history. Some samurai pissed on it or sat on it
> or Basho wrote 42 haiku about it, doesn't make Tokyo a great city.
Tokyo isn't a great city. It is a dumpy little military outpost that
grew. Fortunately, some really great people started a lot of the little
village centers that later grew outward and merged in to the the big
pile that became modern Tokyo. There are a lot of colorful areas and a
lot more dross separating them. The only way to find out about them is
to look. Edo had 1,000 samurai who needed people to service them for
every tradesman. The rest of Japan had between 100 and 1,000 tradesmen
for every samurai and the difference is still apparent today. I work a
lot with people in the government. First they give up their
imagination, then their reproductive organs. But they get paid well for
not being able to think.
> Kyomizudera is fucking awesome. It's massive but unfortunately the sun
> is in the wrong place so get there early morning. Apparently some famous
> priest did something interesting there and his disciples did something
> too, which makes the history of the place very historic (I don't think
> it was built in the very interesting historic seventh century period).
> It's got some dead people too, which makes it even more historic.
I go to Kiyomizudera for the pottery street, too. We've bought a number
of custom made dishes, tokkuri, an ochoko there. We're friendly with
one of the shops who has an in with one of the restaurants up on Kibune.
Its one with the big wood deck sitting area out over the river close
to Kibune-jinja. He gets us seats even when they say they're fully
booked.
Kiyomizudera is nice, but Kyoto has a lot more temples that are
interesting. I prefer Arashiyama or the walk between Ginkauji and
Nanzenji. I had an assignment in Kyoto during the Shinsen-gumi craze
last year and there were a number of places you couldn't get close to
because there was another four busloads of junior high students crowding
around a rock that had some inscription about one incident or another on
it. Seemed as though every subway station had it's exits marked
according to which Shinsen-gumi related site was closest. So much for
the 13th Century ...
> There's a Starbucks near Yasaka Jinja so you can walk back that way for
> a afternoon cuppa.
When I have time, there is a very nice minshuku about three roads back
from the road that runs straight from Shijo-eki to the front of
Yasaka-jinja. It's a bed, a bath, and breakfast for about Yen 8,000.
We also go there sometimes to go to Kabuki-za, but its always the
Nakamuras at that particular one (not as much variety as the ones in
Tokyo and Osaka). Sorry to hear that Starbucks pollution has reached
the neighborhood.
CL
John W.
In all honesty this is the best argument for going to, say, Kansai to
study; more bang for the buck. No measurable difference in quality of
life, lots more to see in what free time you have.
But I went to Tokyo for my first major trip as well, so I totally
understand your desire to go there. Within six weeks in Japan I decided
Tokyo just wasn't for me; many people decide the opposite.
John W.
declan...@hotmail.com
> declan...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > NC86 wrote:
> >
> >>I have almost finished third year university Japanese and next year will
> >>do fourth year. However, since I have started to find it difficult, I
> >>want to study Japanese in Tokyo for about one month during the
> >>Dec-Nov-Jan holidays.
> >>
> >>Does anyone know of any good language schools where I could do this?
> >
> > If it has to be Tokyo, have a look at Naganuma, Kai & ALA. Those 3 have
> > reasonably good reputations. If you don't mind being outside Tokyo (at
> > least when studying - you can easily visit Tokyo during the breaks),
> > the Nov/Dec/Jan programs I work for are at
> > http://www.yamasa.org/acjs/english/programs/winter.html
>
> Kai has a 45 hour, 3-week course in summer for a good price. Do you know
> if they have a winter one? They mention a it but there's no information
> there.
As far as I'm aware they don't, but the last time I met Kai's director
was about 2002 or so. Drop them a line or give them a call. My guess is
they would probably be able to put you into a class appropriate to your
current proficiency level, but only from January, and it would be a
class of shugaku visa holders - the latter could be a problem if your
main objective is to improve your speaking & listening skills.
The reason I suggested Naganuma, Kai or ALA is basically because they
have reasonably good reputations amongst the Japanese teaching
fraternity. I don't hear many unrealistic complaints, & they have never
needed "special" auditing by the authorities etc. I don't know the
staff at Kudan very well so can't say, and while there are a couple of
schools I'd suggest avoiding it probably wouldn't be wise to write them
here.
If Kai etc don't have courses appropriate to your level, schedule or
budget, another option you may want to consider is private lessons.
Fewer classes per day, but possibly more appropriate ones, and you
could then use Tokyo or whichever city you ended up in as your
classroom. I assume with 3 years of uni Japanese under your belt that
you are past level 3, but an experienced private instructor would be
able to structure a curriculum that plugs gaps and develops your skills
even with one 2 formal classes a day.
> I'm leaning towards Tokyo because I really want to experience life
> there. If I ever live in Japan longer term it is likely to be Tokyo, so
> I want to feel what it is like to be there on a daily basis.
A month should be enough to get the feel for a place. The first
impression thing usually only lasts a week or so. Studying and working
are pretty different things though, and to a large extent it depends on
commuting distance & time, and whether you can find a reasonable place
to live. If you are Australian then you are going to spend at least 2
of the first 5 years after graduation living somewhere abroad. When I
came back to Japan permanently I lived and worked in Iidabashi. I
don't regret doing so, but I don't miss it either.
Tokyo is an interesting place, it offers you something new to see & do
every day. There is some incredible nightlife (and some incredible
boredom when the trains shut down). Anyone visiting Japan should see
it. I still spend at least a few nights a month up there and usually
look forward to it.
> Also there are gaijin houses there. What accomodation is available
> near/at Yamasa for around 63,000 a month?
http://www.yamasa.org/acjs/english/about_accommodation.html
If you don't mind sharing an apartment with one other person, then
about 42000 yen a month including broadband. All within walking
distance so commutes or fares. For full privacy, up to 70,000 month.
There are plenty of gaigin houses in the other large urban areas
(kansai, chubu, sapporo, fukuoka), so I wouldn't limit your search to
Tokyo purely for accommodation reasons. Go to Tokyo because you want
to, not because you feel you have no alternative.
declan...@hotmail.com
> declan...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > necoandjeff wrote:
<snips>
> >> Nagoya is like an even bigger country town.
> >
> > In the Sydney, LA or Manchester sense yes. The urban area is only 7
> > million or so, but when you cross the Mikawa-ben & Owari-ben border it
> > feels like a different city, which I don't hear going from say
> > Shinagawa down to Yokohama.
>
> I mean they're a bunch of hicks living in an urban setting (far more hickish
> than Tokyo, by a long shot).
I'm not sure why you like using the word "hick". Its true that central
Nagoya is smaller than the 23 wards, and the old money conservatism of
the place can be irritating to the extreme at times, but that hardly
turns Tokyo into an ocean of cultured cosmopolitans. Especially when so
many Tokyoites had their formative experiences in places such as
Pontiac Michigan & Itoigawa Niigata. This is just the "pissing order of
civilisation"** thing again. I can understand why you enjoy Tokyo.
Someone who hasn't lived all their life in a metropolis is always
likely to get a buzz out of it.
But I suspect that a lot of Nagoyans would either prefer to stay where
they are pulling down Japan's largest disposable incomes, or see how
things look from a lovely loft apartment with views of the Sydney Opera
House, NYC's Central Park, or London's Westminister Palace etc, than to
trade it all in for a partially obscured (by some hideous architecture
by the way) view of the Tokyo Dome. Sheesh Jeff. Get a life already.
**People in towns look down on people on islands or in the country as
ignorant rural inakamono. Those in provincial cities look down on
people in towns as possible opportunities for two-headed fellatio. And
those in major cities look down on people in provincial cities as
pitiable pretenders. Folks in the largest city look down on everybody,
even though their ultimate dream is to move to the friggin country.
declan...@hotmail.com
> declan...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > In the Sydney, LA or Manchester sense yes. The urban area is only 7
> > million or so, but when you cross the Mikawa-ben & Owari-ben border it
> > feels like a different city, which I don't hear going from say
> > Shinagawa down to Yokohama.
>
> Then you haven't been listening too closely. Crossing the Tamagawa is
> entering a completely different country. When you get to Yokohama you
> have to start worrying whether you need your passport. Or, maybe those
> infamous Kanto nuances are just too subtle for you ...
I hear differences when heading down to the peninsula, but most of
Kanto area sounds very Mikawa like. Perhaps its because the hyoujungo
just blends in, and I don't really eavesdrop except when someone
catches my ear. Last week on the subway into Shinjuku I couldn't help
but listen to one couple, I think they were from either Yamagata or
Iwate. Next time I'll pay a bit more attention if I'm heading down to
Yokohama.
> >>Very unlike Tokyo in many respects.
> >
> > Fortunately yes. A lot more nonbiri, but becoming obscenely well off.
> > Main difference between Susukino, Roppongi, Umeda, Nakasu and Sakae is
> > that Nagoya's district drips money.
>
> For all of the nights I have spent in different Japanese cities on
> behalf of clients, I have to say that the least enjoyable have always
> been in Nagoya. Then again, I finally learned to stay in Sakae so I
> could at least get some decent yakiniku. The degree of unnecessary
> ostentation in some parts of Nagoya is positively sickening. And the
> government people in the offices I usually have to call on treat me like
> a long lost brother in Osaka or Fukuoka or Sapporo but are complete
> assholes in Nagoya.
You will always be treated that way in Nagoya. Most conservative and
tight fisted place in the country on one hand, and most flashy and risk
taking on the other. Osaka is a friendly place by nature. Fukuoka and
Sapporo are friendly places because the locals seem amazed someone
would take the time to remember they exist, let alone visit them. I've
been working a lot in Sapporo lately, and it is so far one of the most
open minded environments I've worked in anywhere in Japan, but the
worst for performance. If I need something done right now, on schedule
& budget, I'll call someone in Aichi.
necoandjeff
> necoandjeff wrote:
>> declan...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> necoandjeff wrote:
> <snips>
>>>> Nagoya is like an even bigger country town.
>>>
>>> In the Sydney, LA or Manchester sense yes. The urban area is only 7
>>> million or so, but when you cross the Mikawa-ben & Owari-ben border
>>> it feels like a different city, which I don't hear going from say
>>> Shinagawa down to Yokohama.
>>
>> I mean they're a bunch of hicks living in an urban setting (far more
>> hickish than Tokyo, by a long shot).
>
> I'm not sure why you like using the word "hick".
Sounds like I really hit a nerve there, Declan. The only reason I used the
word "hick" is that two others before me used that very same word to
describe people in Tokyo. They may have a fair point, since so many
Tokyoites are not edokko. But in my mind, hick is purely a state of mind.
And it has nothing to do with "pissing order" or whatever you were going on
about. (If I had any sort of issue with that kind of nonsense, do you think
I would have married a girl from a small village of ten houses in the middle
of the mountains of southern Niigata?) People in Nagoya have a bad tendency
to stare down foreigners (and otherwise treat them like complete freaks) in
a way that people in Tokyo do not. And half the time they don't even have
the decency to look away when you look back at them. They just continue
staring like they're at the zoo looking into the gorilla cage. When I go to
someplace like Itoigawa, I exect that kind of behavior, and it doesn't
bother me. When I go to the fourth largest city in the country, with a not
so insignificant population of foreigners, I don't. What makes a hick in my
mind has a lot to do with his or her bility to accept someone different than
they are and treat them with respect, whether that person lives in the most
remote corner of Louisiana or the middle of New York City.
Jeff
kuri
"NC86" <ga...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> Why do gaigin have this attitude that it's so important to see a lot of
> the country. Isn't it a bit strange that you have probably seen more of
> Japan than the average Japanese person?
Wherever I go, I see more of it than the average Japanese person. I'm
normal, they are strange.
Kuri
declan...@hotmail.com
> declan...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > necoandjeff wrote:
> >> declan...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>> necoandjeff wrote:
> > <snips>
> >>>> Nagoya is like an even bigger country town.
> >>>
> >>> In the Sydney, LA or Manchester sense yes. The urban area is only 7
> >>> million or so, but when you cross the Mikawa-ben & Owari-ben border
> >>> it feels like a different city, which I don't hear going from say
> >>> Shinagawa down to Yokohama.
> >>
> >> I mean they're a bunch of hicks living in an urban setting (far more
> >> hickish than Tokyo, by a long shot).
> >
> > I'm not sure why you like using the word "hick".
>
> Sounds like I really hit a nerve there, Declan.
Not really. I was just bemused by the way someone extolling how
exciting Tokyo and its nightlife is, and how there is just so much to
do etc, spent all of his Friday night doing virtual handbags at 10
paces with Brett instead of strolling down to Blue Note or something.
> People in Nagoya have a bad tendency
> to stare down foreigners (and otherwise treat them like complete freaks) in
> a way that people in Tokyo do not. And half the time they don't even have
> the decency to look away when you look back at them. They just continue
> staring like they're at the zoo looking into the gorilla cage.
And you never wondered why...
http://www.schrepfer.com/photos/jeffprofile.jpg
I haven't noticed anything like what you have described at all, despite
spending the last 7 of the years I've spent in Japan in or close to
Nagoya. Perhaps you have an unfortunate habit of sitting close to Amway
reps, or an unusual sense of fashion or something. Why are you making
eye contact with everyone in any case? Rude man :-)
> When I go to
> someplace like Itoigawa, I exect that kind of behavior, and it doesn't
> bother me. When I go to the fourth largest city in the country, with a not
> so insignificant population of foreigners, I don't. What makes a hick in my
> mind has a lot to do with his or her bility to accept someone different than
> they are and treat them with respect, whether that person lives in the most
> remote corner of Louisiana or the middle of New York City.
Is the usage of "hick" and "redneck" interchangeable in sepponian
English?
kuri
"John W." <worth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> In all honesty this is the best argument for going to, say, Kansai to
> study; more bang for the buck. No measurable difference in quality of
> life, lots more to see in what free time you have.
And he'll study in what school ? Where do they propose intensive classes at
his level ?
In Kansai, most of the nihongo jukus specialize in preparing the Chinese and
Koreans for the test. Joining their classes is a pure loss of time at his
level. He already has the level of conversational Japanese they'll get at
the end of the year, and in November, they'll still be doing the basic
aisatsu. The senseis don't teach the kanjis, they only do tests as all the
other students already know them more or less.
The other schools will propose him a weekly class on Saturdays, private
lessons (that can be either barely decent or
completely amateurish and become an eikaiwa lesson for the sensei) or if
they are dishonnest, they'll put him in a class of beginners.
Kuri
declan...@hotmail.com
> "John W." <worth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> > In all honesty this is the best argument for going to, say, Kansai to
> > study; more bang for the buck. No measurable difference in quality of
> > life, lots more to see in what free time you have.
>
> And he'll study in what school ? Where do they propose intensive classes at
> his level ?
> In Kansai, most of the nihongo jukus specialize in preparing the Chinese and
> Koreans for the test. Joining their classes is a pure loss of time at his
> level. He already has the level of conversational Japanese they'll get at
> the end of the year, and in November, they'll still be doing the basic
> aisatsu. The senseis don't teach the kanjis, they only do tests as all the
> other students already know them more or less.
That same situation though (unfortunately) would apply to at least 95%
of the accredited schools in Tokyo, including the one he was originally
looking at, and all of the non-accredited. The situation with short
courses in Japan is in general a disgrace.
> The other schools will propose him a weekly class on Saturdays, private
> lessons (that can be either barely decent or
> completely amateurish and become an eikaiwa lesson for the sensei) or if
> they are dishonnest, they'll put him in a class of beginners.
With private lessons there is a greater chance of control. If you do
not pay until after verifying the instructor's licence (all qualified
teachers have one), and insist on a policy of full refund (or
pay-as-you-go), then it is easy to leave if the teacher, methodology or
school proves unsuitable.
Private lessons can be difficult to teach. At Yamasa we ended up
creating a separate team (14 staff) for delivering private lessons, and
some teachers who received excellent feedback in group classes just
didn't have the ability to instruct one-to-one effectively.
NC86
> study; more bang for the buck. No measurable difference in quality of
> life, lots more to see in what free time you have.
But what of monthly accomodation there?
NC86
Ignore that question... it has been somewhat answered in another post.
NC86
>>his level ?
>>In Kansai, most of the nihongo jukus specialize in preparing the Chinese and
>>Koreans for the test. Joining their classes is a pure loss of time at his
>>level. He already has the level of conversational Japanese they'll get at
>>the end of the year, and in November, they'll still be doing the basic
>>aisatsu. The senseis don't teach the kanjis, they only do tests as all the
>>other students already know them more or less.
>
>
> That same situation though (unfortunately) would apply to at least 95%
> of the accredited schools in Tokyo, including the one he was originally
> looking at, and all of the non-accredited. The situation with short
> courses in Japan is in general a disgrace.
The one I was looking at
http://www.geos-japanese-insti.co.jp/english/course/intensive.html
seems to be ok for a short course because they have 8 different skill
levels, and they don't seem too obsessed with the JLPT.
The downside of them is large classes (15) and they are Geos... I hope
they would have better standards than Eikaiwa.
Michael Cash
down from the Mount tablets inscribed:
>>>>Wow. You really need to get out some:
>>>
>>>In fact *you* need to see some of Japan.
>>
>>
>> In fact, I've seen most of it, from Sapporo to Goto Retto, including
>> Shikoku.
>
>Why do gaigin have this attitude that it's so important to see a lot of
>the country. Isn't it a bit strange that you have probably seen more of
>Japan than the average Japanese person?
>
>Non-Tokyo is a huge collection of boring 500,000人 cities. They're all
>the same.
That's close enough to the mark that I won't bother arguing it.
--
Michael Cash
"Clowns to the left of me and jokers to the right, Mr. Cash.
Clowns and jokers."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
necoandjeff
> necoandjeff wrote:
>> declan...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> necoandjeff wrote:
>>>> declan...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>> necoandjeff wrote:
>>> <snips>
>>>>>> Nagoya is like an even bigger country town.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the Sydney, LA or Manchester sense yes. The urban area is only
>>>>> 7 million or so, but when you cross the Mikawa-ben & Owari-ben
>>>>> border it feels like a different city, which I don't hear going
>>>>> from say Shinagawa down to Yokohama.
>>>>
>>>> I mean they're a bunch of hicks living in an urban setting (far
>>>> more hickish than Tokyo, by a long shot).
>>>
>>> I'm not sure why you like using the word "hick".
>>
>> Sounds like I really hit a nerve there, Declan.
>
> Not really. I was just bemused by the way someone extolling how
> exciting Tokyo and its nightlife is, and how there is just so much to
> do etc, spent all of his Friday night doing virtual handbags at 10
> paces with Brett instead of strolling down to Blue Note or something.
I wasn't extolling Tokyo's nightlife. I was just saying it is a great place
to live. And Friday nights are reserved for my daughter now.
>> People in Nagoya have a bad tendency
>> to stare down foreigners (and otherwise treat them like complete
>> freaks) in a way that people in Tokyo do not. And half the time they
>> don't even have the decency to look away when you look back at them.
>> They just continue staring like they're at the zoo looking into the
>> gorilla cage.
>
> And you never wondered why...
> http://www.schrepfer.com/photos/jeffprofile.jpg
Hmmm, good point...
> I haven't noticed anything like what you have described at all,
> despite spending the last 7 of the years I've spent in Japan in or
> close to Nagoya. Perhaps you have an unfortunate habit of sitting
> close to Amway reps, or an unusual sense of fashion or something. Why
> are you making eye contact with everyone in any case? Rude man :-)
>
>> When I go to
>> someplace like Itoigawa, I exect that kind of behavior, and it
>> doesn't bother me. When I go to the fourth largest city in the
>> country, with a not so insignificant population of foreigners, I
>> don't. What makes a hick in my mind has a lot to do with his or her
>> bility to accept someone different than they are and treat them with
>> respect, whether that person lives in the most remote corner of
>> Louisiana or the middle of New York City.
>
> Is the usage of "hick" and "redneck" interchangeable in sepponian
> English?
That's probably just my interpretation. But I'd say those two words are
pretty darn close, thought perhaps not interchangeable.
Jeff
Sean
> What makes a hick in my
> mind has a lot to do with his or her bility to accept someone different than
> they are and treat them with respect, whether that person lives in the most
> remote corner of Louisiana or the middle of New York City.
By that definition, I would say unequivocally that I encountered far more
"hicks" during 4 years of living in Tokyo than I did during 4 years of
living in the countryside near Fukushima City.
Raj Feridun
wrote:
>John W. wrote:
>> necoandjeff wrote:
>>> B Robson wrote:
>>>> necoandjeff wrote:
>>>>> John W. wrote:
>>>>>> necoandjeff wrote:
>>>>>>> I mean they're a bunch of hicks living in an urban setting (far
>>>>>>> more hickish than Tokyo, by a long shot).
>>>>>> Sounds like you've picked up the Japanese distaste for all things
>>>>>> Nagoya.
>>>>> My first year living in Japan was spent in Nagoya. I had no
>>>>> particular reason to dislike it until I lived in Tokyo and was able
>>>>> to compare the two. I could never live in Nagoya again and I don't
>>>>> particularly like going back to visit, although I still have a
>>>>> number of very good friends who live there.
>>>> Fuck Jeff, you dare lecture me about good spots and you couldn't
>>>> even have fun in Nagoya. I take it back, you couldn't even have a
>>>> good time in Thailand. You really are from Alabama aren't you?
>>> Where did I say I couldn't have fun in Nagoya? I had lots of fun in
>>> Nagoya.
>> I think when you said you could never live there again and don't like
>> going back to visit the implication was quite clear that you can't
>> have fun in Nagoya (in the present). To me it does sound like the
>> typical Japanese distaste of Nagoya.
>I disagree. All I said is that I couldn't live there. I couldn't live there
>because I think there is a much better alternative. But when I'm there I
>certainly have fun. As I said, I still have a lot of friends there. I
>couldn't go back and live with my parents again either, but that doesn't
>mean that I don't have a great time when I visit them.
>And I've only heard the "typical Japanese distate of Nagoya" from people who
>have actually been there. Do you think it is all just a coincidence that
>people who have been there often feel that way about the place? There is a
>distaste of New Jersey too by a lot of people who have been there. Having
>been there myself too, I don't think it is just everyone's imagination.
I'm from New Jersey and I've been to Nagoya a bunch of times. I think
New Jersey is a great state and I prefer these mountains of Ehime to
Nagoya (or Tokyo for that matter) as a place to live but in general I
think you're just full of shit.
You talk in doublespeak like an attorney.
You initially entered this thread disparaging Nagoya as typical
Tokyoites (usually Japanese) will. My experience is that that Tokyo
xenophobia is not limited to Nagoya but rather anyplace not Tokyo.
Raj
declan...@hotmail.com
> The one I was looking at
>
> http://www.geos-japanese-insti.co.jp/english/course/intensive.html
>
> seems to be ok for a short course because they have 8 different skill
> levels, and they don't seem too obsessed with the JLPT.
I don't know how you got that impression, their entire curriculum is
JLPT and EJU oriented. That may be the reason why they have a very high
ratio of JLPT1 & 2 examinees (pass rate about 50%) as a percentage of
total student body. Another hint that this is basically a university
prep cram school is the high concentration of mainland Chinese and
"non-Malaysian/Indonesian/Thai/Phillipines ASEAN" students (which in
nisshinkyo-speak means Vietnam).
The number of proficiency levels should be enough if your main priority
is to improve your grammar and reading skills. It isn't a short course
but a 2 year program you would be sitting in on.
> The downside of them is large classes (15) and they are Geos... I hope
> they would have better standards than Eikaiwa.
They are not owned by Geos but by a small KK. Best case is that the
Geos link is probably contractual (for China recruitment). Worst case
may be that the school is actually a Geos eikaiwa franchise, but
teaches Japanese during the day as a side business - not unusual in
Tokyo (or Osaka for that matter) due to the rent situation. No way to
confirm either without actually visiting/auditing. If you want I could
do so for you later this month after the next meeting.
Class size as of April 1st 2005 was actually 18.3 (those are the most
recent stats I can access). That might present all sorts of fun if the
Chinese students are hotties, given that the entire school occupies no
more than 16 x 16 meters of space (254 sq. meters) including 6
classrooms and administration area. There are 4 fulltime teachers and
155 students. No language lab, computer lab or library.
NC86
> JLPT and EJU oriented. That may be the reason why they have a very high
> ratio of JLPT1 & 2 examinees (pass rate about 50%) as a percentage of
> total student body. Another hint that this is basically a university
> prep cram school is the high concentration of mainland Chinese and
> "non-Malaysian/Indonesian/Thai/Phillipines ASEAN" students (which in
> nisshinkyo-speak means Vietnam).
>
> The number of proficiency levels should be enough if your main priority
> is to improve your grammar and reading skills. It isn't a short course
> but a 2 year program you would be sitting in on.
The website shows many pictures of white people... maybe the short
course students aren't included in the stats?
j...@csse.monash.edu.au
>> ....... Another hint that this is basically a university
>> prep cram school is the high concentration of mainland Chinese and
>> "non-Malaysian/Indonesian/Thai/Phillipines ASEAN" students (which in
>> nisshinkyo-speak means Vietnam).
>>
Just like the pictures of gaigin in the advertisements in the 地下鉄?
>maybe the short
>course students aren't included in the stats?
Since when did pictures in advertising material conform with
reality.
declan...@hotmail.com
On April 1st this year, the data they submitted to the APJLE lists 90
students with shugaku visas, and 65 with other visas. It would be
logical to assume that some long term students would be included in the
"other visa" category (for example people studying using spouse, child
of a Japanese national, or working holiday visas), but the majority of
"other" are likely to have tankitaizai status, so they would be short
term/course students. It is also possible that part-time and private
students are included.
The following URL is interesting
http://tinyurl.com/a5xeh
(http://www.geos-japanese-insti.co.jp/english/nationality/kudanmonthlynationalityreport2005july.htm)
though it would be the height of the short term summer courses. And
also a little worrying. I can understand why it is possible to list 57
Americans on the website, and report 0 Americans to the APJLE, because
it is possible for all of the Americans to be short term students on
tourist visas. What I can't understand is how they can list China (PRC)
student numbers as 9, when the APJLE and Immigration Bureau figures
state clearly the exact number of student visa holders by nationality
for each and every school. Looking through the previous months, there
are also some discrepancies understating the numbers of some
nationalities when compared to the corresponding 3rd party audits.
B Robson
> They may be right. I haven't been to Uluru, etc., but I have been
> to the Pilbara (working). I'm planning a trip to the Flinders Ranges next
> year. I'm still working on my wife about the big 12-month trip right
> around the coast (joining the famous grey army).
>
The *whole* coast?
The west coast of the Eyre Peninsula from Port Linclon (SA) aroudn the
southern tip (Cape Carnot?), Coffin Bay up to Cenduna is magnificent;
one of my favourite spots in the entire world, shame it's so far away
from anything. Or maybe lucky it's so far from anything.
B Robson
> One reason I'm not a fan of Tokyo is that when I first went to Japan 13
> years ago I found the foreign popluation of Tokyo stuck up and
> distinctly rude, whereas outside of Tokyo it was very easy to strike up
> a conversation with someone and learn about places to visit, work,
> live, etc.
That's probably because of the (non-eikawa) professional types who have
an sense of superiority. It has probably improved a bit since then and
fortunately I am usually spared the worst offenders.
NC86
> also a little worrying. I can understand why it is possible to list 57
> Americans on the website, and report 0 Americans to the APJLE, because
> it is possible for all of the Americans to be short term students on
> tourist visas. What I can't understand is how they can list China (PRC)
> student numbers as 9, when the APJLE and Immigration Bureau figures
> state clearly the exact number of student visa holders by nationality
> for each and every school. Looking through the previous months, there
> are also some discrepancies understating the numbers of some
> nationalities when compared to the corresponding 3rd party audits.
Sounds like it could be a strange experience going there. Not bad, just
slightly surreal. At least the lack of English would force me to speak
Japanese.
If KAI tells me they don't have a winter course I think I'll go with
this one. Yamasa would be the best but it's more expensive (even with
the cheaper housing).
B Robson
> People in Nagoya have a bad tendency
> to stare down foreigners (and otherwise treat them like complete freaks) in
> a way that people in Tokyo do not. And half the time they don't even have
> the decency to look away when you look back at them. They just continue
> staring like they're at the zoo looking into the gorilla cage. When I go to
> someplace like Itoigawa, I exect that kind of behavior, and it doesn't
> bother me.
I lived in Aichi for about 3 years and downtown Nagoya for 1 1/2 years
or so and I have experienced far more racism and xenophobic responses in
Tokyo. I don't recall even once being refused entry to any business,
even the guys on the street outside the pink salons would try to get our
business. Yes, I do remember one now, I couldn't go into the Hilton
Hotel because I had shorts on.
B Robson
> Tokyo isn't a great city. It is a dumpy little military outpost that
> grew. Fortunately, some really great people started a lot of the little
> village centers that later grew outward and merged in to the the big
> pile that became modern Tokyo.
We certainly agree on that.
I do enjoy the life I have craved out here but it's based on music. One
of the big surprises that I discovered in Japan is the number of live
houses and practice studios. But I would be happier in just about any
other major city, unfortunately there isn't the work.
>
> Kiyomizudera is nice, but Kyoto has a lot more temples that are
> interesting.
Yes, but standing at the bottom looking up at the wooden poles soaring
above you is aweinspiring.
> Sorry to hear that Starbucks pollution has reached the
> neighborhood.
>
There is nothing wrong with Starbucks. You don't have to have a double
caramel cappucino frappuncino, a simple expresso is fine. You get comfy
seats and you don't catch cancer from passive smoking.
B Robson
>
> Sounds like it could be a strange experience going there. Not bad, just
> slightly surreal. At least the lack of English would force me to speak
> Japanese.
>
> If KAI tells me they don't have a winter course I think I'll go with
> this one. Yamasa would be the best but it's more expensive (even with
> the cheaper housing).
Having lots of Korean and Chinese students can be a disadvantage as
their reading and writing skills are so much better. The teachers forget
that you only know a couple of hundred kanji.
j...@csse.monash.edu.au
>One reason I'm not a fan of Tokyo is that when I first went to Japan 13
>years ago I found the foreign popluation of Tokyo stuck up and
>distinctly rude, whereas outside of Tokyo it was very easy to strike up
>a conversation with someone and learn about places to visit, work,
>live, etc.
That's what I liked about living in 荒川区. While there are a lot
of forners (about 15% of the population), they're almost all
Chinese and Koreans. We palefaces were few and far between, and
shopkeepers were happy to chat in Japanese. My only 英語じゃない
experiences were when I ventured into those strange southern
gaigin-infested parts like Roppongi and Meguro. It was always a
relief to flee back to my 下町 comfort zone.