Introduction and Feeding Wand lesson

[Finn]

Hi Dean and all,

I just bought my Dad the R2 Fish School kit for Father's Day. He was
tickled yet skeptical. Thought I'd log on to ask a some questions
about getting started. I know from previous clicker training
experience with equines, that the first foundation lessons are SO
important so I want to start off right.

Question: The feeding wand lesson: the fish learns to associate the
wand with food.

I'm used to starting clicker training with horses by a target stick
lesson: (hold out target stick, click for any movment towards stick,
deliver treat for good position)

So in this lesson, we hold out a target stick (one that handily also
dispenses treats), dispense treat "for free" to charge up the feeding
wand, hopefully being able to discharge treat for movement towards the
stick after a few repititions.

So the main difference is the absence of a marker signal (the click
used for dogs and horses or the whistle for dolphins) OK so we could
use a little pen flashlight to add a marker.

The 2nd difference is that the feed delivery and the target stick are
combined. I'm wondering if this could be problematic in more advanced
work if you wanted the feeding wand to not be a big distraction? I
don't want to lose the power of a target feeder combo. I know with
horses, feed delivery for good position (out of my space/no mugging)
is key for personal protection. Not an issue with a goldfish.
Comments?

[Helix Fairweather]

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008, Finn wrote:

> So the main difference is the absence of a marker signal (the click
> used for dogs and horses or the whistle for dolphins) OK so we could
> use a little pen flashlight to add a marker.

I'm a clicker trainer and I am using a little keychain LED light as the
marker. After the flash, I present the feeding wand as the treat. Before
having the feeding wand, I had target trained Cartman to a target stick
with flash/treat placed in feeding ring.

I debated about using the sight of the feeding wand as a the marker but
decided against that in favor of flash/wand. It's working very well now
that I have finally found something to put in it that Cartman will eat!

I have lots of Cartman video clips on YouTube - just search on helix137. I
have a new one I'm trying to get uploaded tonight. This one is very
exciting because Cartman and I are finally "clicking". It's been quite a
deal figuring out how to read him, the mechanics of the wand and all, and
how to figure out when to raise criteria. I'm a good dog trainer but I
can't yet say I'm a good fish trainer. I am *definitely* appreciating
being in the learner's shoes as I am really feeling what my beginning
clicker training students must feel.

> The 2nd difference is that the feed delivery and the target stick are
> combined. I'm wondering if this could be problematic in more advanced

I am discovering that Cartman is relating to the feeding want as if it
were his target stick. He was really nutso for his target stick. I am
presenting the feeding wand, letting him touch it and THEN releasing the
food. That's my intent anyway. Sometimes I get the timing all out of
whack.

I plan to use it as a target stick also and I think this is doable with
the one object by virtue of when one releases the food.

> work if you wanted the feeding wand to not be a big distraction? I

It IS a big distraction adn it's just like food with dogs. I just wrote a
recent post about this, about doing "Fishie Zen" such that reaching up to
grab at the feeding wand is not reinforced, only staying back from it is.
Cartman can see it above the surface of the water and sometimes that draws
his eye a little bit but for the most part he's learned that he has to
stay down below the surface.

I think you are on the right track by considering all of these things!

I am loving that feeding want to pieces!! You'll see from Cartman's early
videos of being shaped through the hoop that he's very slow to get it. We
had a long hiatus and returned to training just recently with the feeding
wand (plus a significantly better treat) and just today I'm getting about
50% offered swims through the hoop.

Helix Fairweather

PLEASE USE THIS ADDRESS FOR PRIVATE EMAIL!
mailto:he...@cyberagility.com - Albany, OR
Karen Pryor Academy & Clicker Expo Faculty
Level 2 TAG Teach Certified
http://www.cyberagility.com

[Dr. Dean]

Welcome Finn!

Both you and Helix are thinking about and pursuing a very interesting
aspect of fish training that hasn't been explored before as far as I
know - using a cue other than the feeding wand.

As you can see from the videos of Comet, and as you'll see when you
watch the instructional DVD that comes with the kit, the feeding wand
is the central training tool in the system we've developed. It works
very well, as Comet's large repetoire of tricks demonstrates. But as
Helix has pointed out, it isn't precisely analogous to standard
clicker training used to teach dogs and horses.

It seems to me that what could be challenging using the feeding wand
only, without a clicker or flashing light signal, is getting your fish
to do tricks or behaviors ON CUE. With the training I've done with
Comet, as soon as I put the apparatus (e.g. the soccer goal and ball)
into the tank, he immediately (and pretty aggressively) moves to push
the ball into the net.

I personally think that's pretty impressive. But it could be even MORE
impressive if Comet could be trained to do his soccer trick on cue -
waiting to 'go for it' until I give him a signal, like the flash of a
light.

That is why I'm so excited to see the Helix's progress training
Cartman using both the feeding wand and a flashlight cue. Helix is
breaking new ground and it is cool to watch, and learn from her
experience.

I originally created this forum to help beginning fish trainers. But
I'm also hoping that by serving as a place for experienced animal
trainers like you and Helix to share and discuss advanced fish
training tips and techniques, we all (including our fish!) might
benefit and graduate from "Fish School" to "Fish University" :-)

Thanks for joining us!

--Dean

Dean Pomerleau
Founder & Chief Fish Trainer
Fish School, Inc.

[Helix Fairweather]

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Dr. Dean wrote:

> As you can see from the videos of Comet, and as you'll see when you
> watch the instructional DVD that comes with the kit, the feeding wand

Dean, if you look at the new video I put up of Cartman, would you agree
that there's a species difference between your goldfish and the cichlid?

Your goldfish seem naturally all wiggly and animated whereas Cartman does
not seem to me to naturally act in that manner. I do see him swinging on
the plastic plants at times which looks like play. But I do not see that
full body wiggling.

With dogs there are breed characteristics that are different behaviorally.
Cartman seems more like a Bull Mastiff to me while yours and Diane's
goldfish seem like Cocker Spaniels or Lab puppies. :)

Helix

[Dr. Dean]

Helix,

I watched both your recent videos of Cartman:

First Hoop - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52sD7GeypZs
Latest Hoop - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SetVZdsRxI

Fascinating! You are right about different species having different
personalities. Cartman continues to remind me of Snow, my aggressive
albino oscar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zann24Rw0bs

Regarding the details of your training procedure. I'm curious about
the goal and role of the flashlight as you see it. Sometimes it
appears you're giving the flash as he starts to move towards the hoop,
and sometimes after he's through it, moments before introducing the
feeding wand and the treat.

I know it is still early in training. How much do you think Cartman is
attending to the flash at this point? It almost seems like he's
ignoring it, moving towards the hoop simply because he's beginning to
associate swimming up to it (or through it) with the appearance of the
wand, and the treat on the other side.

Is your eventual goal to use the light flash as a cue to perform a
behavior, or as a substitute reward AFTER the behavior has been
performed, in place of the wand & food? Put another way. If the
moment you put the hoop in the tank, Cartman started swimming through
it repeatedly without any light cue, would you consider that a
success?

I'm also wondering whether instead of the light, the appearance of the
green outer shell of the wand might serve as the cue, and extending
the orange tip as the secondary reinforcer. Any thoughts?

One thing is clear, Cartman really is getting it! Very cool to watch.

--Dean

Dr. Dean Pomerleau

[Professor Freshwater]

I suspect that difference is mainly because 1) different species/breeds of fish have different body shapes and aerodynamics (aquadynamics?), so their style of getting through the water is characteristic. My little Ranchu, because she lacks a dorsal fin and is blocky in shape, wiggles her whole body three times for every twitch of Ricky's fin! 2) This is just an off the wall theory, but perhaps cichlids are less animated because their natural habitat is in the streams of South America -- clearer, moving water. The natural habitat of carp (from which goldfish were bred) is murkier lake water. So goldfish may be genetically inclined to be very animated and curious, actively looking for food. Cichlids might be more inclined to just hang out and wait for the stream to bring food to them.

What I admire about Cartman is the precision of his motion. Cartman can back up on a dime, whereas when Ricky backs up he has to adjust to all that floaty finnage!

Regards,
Diane

http://www.freshwaterpearlspuppetry.com

[Professor Freshwater]

For training my goldfish to perform on cue, I devised a system of colored LED flashlights:

http://www.freshwaterpearlspuppetry.com/bubbleblog/index.php?itemid=31

This has worked quite well. A light flash is paired with a specific behavior, and the fish offers the behavior when the light is presented. So the light flash is a bona fide operant conditioning cue. For example, at the flash of a blue light, Ricky will spin in place. (That's not to say he never offers the behavior without the cue, though I believe we could get there, given time.) Training Ricky to respond to a cue was, for me, no different than training a dog or a chicken. When Ricky's spin was good and solid, with desirable form and accuracy, I began to flash the blue light at the instant he began to spin. Then I flashed it half a second BEFORE he began to spin, then a second before, etc, until the blue flash became a predictor for Ricky: if I see this light, and I spin, the white light (click) will follow and I will get a treat. Once the blue light became a reliable cue, I could then use it as a tool to increase duration of the behavior. At first Ricky would only make a
maximum of three revolutions in place before he'd stop and look at me, waiting for the click and treat. So, after three spins, I just flashed the blue cue and got several more. Then I faded the additional cue and ended up with a 4-6 revolution spin.

I have also used the blue cue as a reinforcer to create a chain of behaviors with Ricky:

http://www.freshwaterpearlspuppetry.com/bubbleblog/index.php?itemid=23&catid=6#more

If you watch closely in this video, you can see the blue cue flash, then the spin, then you hear me flash the white penlight (=the click), though the white flash itself doesn't show up on this video very well.

Just now I am preparing to attach a red LED light cue to Ricky's "play the piano" behavior. (I am also experimenting with the use of a laser pointer as a combination target/cue. More on that later.) And I'm also going to work on pointing with my finger as a cue to "target that thing that I'm pointing at." This works well with my dogs. I never thought a fish could make that connection, BUT yesterday Ricky spontaneously did that. The piano was in the tank, and Ricky was ignoring it as I was loading the feeding wand. So I pointed at the piano, and by golly, he dashed over and started playing! You could hear my jaw hit the floor.

Last night I moved Ricky from his 30G tank to a 55G tank, because he has now completed all of his scripted behaviors for The Ugly Guppy. I'll continue to train him, though, because it's interesting for both of us. I expect he'll need a day to get used to his new environment, so he might be a little slower to learn new things today. We'll see...

Regards,
Diane

http://www.freshwaterpearlspuppetry.com

[Dr. Dean]

Diane,

Great videos of Ricky! Thanks for the explanation of your cueing and
chaining with the lights. Very impressive. I'm particularly excited
about your mention of finger pointing as a cue. I'll be curious if it
was just a coincidence, or if he'll do it reliably.

It would be amazing if we could train our fish to perform a behavior
using hand signals as a cue!

--Dean

Dr. Dean Pomerleau

[Helix Fairweather]

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Dr. Dean wrote:

>
> Fascinating! You are right about different species having different
> personalities. Cartman continues to remind me of Snow, my aggressive
> albino oscar:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zann24Rw0bs

Even Snow looks livelier than Cartman!

> Regarding the details of your training procedure. I'm curious about
> the goal and role of the flashlight as you see it. Sometimes it
> appears you're giving the flash as he starts to move towards the hoop,
> and sometimes after he's through it, moments before introducing the
> feeding wand and the treat.

I am working on shaping him to go through the hoop. In these videos, a lot
of my "clicks" (flashes) are for moving into position in front of the
hoop. He's flashed for that and the treat is presented on the other side
of the hoop most of the time.

From there I moved on to only flashing for the times he was *moving* as he
neared the hoop. Here's where my skills with training Cartman are FAR
behind my dog training skills. I can't always catch him in motion. If I
could, this whole process would go quicker.

Sometimes I'm able to flash as he moves towards the hoop and he doesn't
go through. That's fine. That's legitimate. He was flashed for his
behavior and earned his treat.

Training Cartman is so tedious that, when he suddenly has a little
breakthrough, I get an adrenaline spike (I kid you not) and I stick the
wand in with too much vigor, missing the best place to put it, sometimes
scaring Cartman even. That's when the wand ends up so close to the hoop.

AFter a series of flashing him for moving towards the hoop, I moved up to
flashing for nose in hoop (is it a nose?)

The hardest part for me to explain about what I'm doing with Cartman comes
from the simple fact that I'm not doing well enough to explain it. :)

I continually have to lower criterion with him as he stalls out. It's not
a linear process in other words. It's often not linear with dogs and other
critters either but with Cartman, it is much less so. And I lot of that is
my learning curve.

In the last video clip I put up, I held out for nose through the hoop a
greater percentage of the time. This meant I had to let him fail a lot
more than usual (and more than I would like for "errorless learning").

He would get flashed and swim to the feeding wand a couple of times in a
row. Then he would line up to the hoop again, almost go through but swim
around it. Instead of saying "oh darn, looks like I asked for too much,
time to lower criteria", I decided to just stick with my criterion of nose
through hoop.

So he lined up, thought about it, swam around it. Ok, fine, no click/no
treat. Now what? I believe he was trying to sort out what behavior is
actually earning the flash/treat. Is it going through the hoop? Is it
putting nose through and stopping? is it going from one side of the hoop
to the other regardless of the path?

Cartman is slow as molasses. If he were a friskier fish, this process
would look more obvious. It's taken me a long time to learn to read him
as much (or as little) as I can right now.

I consider this last video clip a HUGE breakthrough. He didn't shut down
over not getting flash/treats for going around. I didn't lower criteria
AND this led to him really working it out.

The second to the last rep, where he starts to go around THREE times, each
time catching himself and then finally going through was **wonderful**.
Clicker trainers LIVE for that moment of decision on the animal's part!

And then the next rep, he started to go around once, backed up, lined up
to the hoop again. I quickly flashed that (followed by one of those
adrenalized wand deliveries) right away even though it wasn't nose-through
as I wanted him to really get the information that that decision was the
right one.

> I know it is still early in training. How much do you think Cartman is
> attending to the flash at this point? It almost seems like he's

Absolutely attending to it.

In the previous feeding system, he was treated in a stationary feeding
ring at the surface. When he was flashed, he would immediately stop all
forward movement, turn and go to the ring. He didn't even have to see me
put a treat in the ring. The flash marked his behavior and he went to the
place of treating.

Now with the wand and being able to place the treat where I want him to
be, I can flash movement and he keeps moving forward knowing that the wand
will appear in a (mostly) consistent spot.

> ignoring it, moving towards the hoop simply because he's beginning to
> associate swimming up to it (or through it) with the appearance of the
> wand, and the treat on the other side.

The wand never appears without the flash marking his behavior. He would
like it to be otherwise. He can see it hovering above the surface. And
sometimes he starts to swim upwards thinking he just might go for it. In
the past he has jumped up to hit the wand but he's since learned that
jumping up gets no treat and swimming up to it gets no treat. Only the
flash predicts a treat is avaiable. And the flash is behavior contingent.

>
> Is your eventual goal to use the light flash as a cue to perform a
> behavior, or as a substitute reward AFTER the behavior has been

No, this red flash is always his "click". I just located other colors of
LED penlights in a convenience store. I was in a hurry getting gas but am
going back today to get some of those. Other colors of lights and/or
combinations of flashes will be cues for behavior. But the red one will
always be the marker for correct response.

> moment you put the hoop in the tank, Cartman started swimming through
> it repeatedly without any light cue, would you consider that a
> success?

Right now I would. But once it's on cue, that would be a mistake and not
reinforced. I want to be able to have 2 or 3 things in the tank and cue
him to one at a time or make them into a chain of cued behaviors. In other
words, I don't want the sight of the prop to be the cue to do the prop.

I envision something like this:

Cue to do the hoop, cue to spin, cue to turn left, cue to do the limbo

> I'm also wondering whether instead of the light, the appearance of the
> green outer shell of the wand might serve as the cue, and extending
> the orange tip as the secondary reinforcer. Any thoughts?

Yes, I think that could happen. With Cartman and his love of his former
target stick, I am now letting hinm touch the wand before I release food.
You can see a couple of times in the video, he'd rather touch the wand
than eat the food. So, IF I have my mechanical skills operating correctly,
I want to let him touch it (green only) and then release the food.

He is really really keyed into that fuschia color. My tip slips out about
1/8 inch after a re-load. I have to remember to push it back up flat with
the green part as that fuschia is too salient for him.

> One thing is clear, Cartman really is getting it! Very cool to watch.
>

I know!! FINALLY! It's been a long time coming. I just knew that feeding
wand would be the key. Then I was so disappointed when I couldn't find
something for him to eat from it. What a relief to have that worked out
and now we are movin' and groovin' - not as fast and as animated as the
goldies but he's thinking and for that I'm thrilled!

Helix

[Helix Fairweather]

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Professor Freshwater wrote:

> Cichlids might be more inclined to just hang out and wait for the stream
> to bring food to them.

Hey! That really fits Cartman!

> What I admire about Cartman is the precision of his motion. Cartman can
> back up on a dime, whereas when Ricky backs up he has to adjust to all
> that floaty finnage!

He sure can. That was the first behavior I captured. I didn't get it on
cue because I became "prop greedy". I should go back and do that. He does
it so much, it would be easy.

Helix

[Janice Ritter]

> >
> > Fascinating! You are right about different species having
> different
> > personalities. Cartman continues to remind me of Snow, my
> aggressive
> > albino oscar:
>
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zann24Rw0bs
>
> Even Snow looks livelier than Cartman!

I agree.

Just some thoughts. I've kept many cichlids over the last 25 years, and I
find that oscars that habituated to people are VERY human-friendly; don't
tend to spook easily, very slow-moving in general, more like the Mastiff
idea. Green terrors, Jack Dempsey's, etc. are spookier than Oscars in
general, but still fairly "aggressive" creatures who are hunters as much as
grazers. Perhaps more like a GSD, willing to deal w/a fight more readily
than, say a goldfish. More active than a Mastiff, also more
cautious/suspicious than a spaniel.

I find that goldfish I've kept, once habituated to people and movement, are
easily food motivated, don't spook all that much, but *are* in constant
motion, too, yes, more like spaniels. :) "Softer" and less aggressive, and
wiggly. Perhaps I'll leave Jeremy alone and work w/the safer goldfish...

> Cartman is slow as molasses. If he were a friskier fish, this
> process would look more obvious. It's taken me a long time to
> learn to read him as much (or as little) as I can right now.

I'd guess that he's actually more *cautious*, not really slow. We have a
Green Terror who can be *very* fast, like lightning, but she's a cautious
fish, moreso than my Red Devil, for sure. She's more cautious than my Angels
(who are cichlids too), but better than *any* of my wild species. (I have 14
fish tanks full of various species. :) My tetras are VERY active, but VERY
spooky as well as cautious.

-Janice

[Helix Fairweather]

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Janice Ritter wrote:

> idea. Green terrors, Jack Dempsey's, etc. are spookier than Oscars in

*Now* you tell me! :) (Cartman is a Green Terror).

> general, but still fairly "aggressive" creatures who are hunters as much as

He only has a hidden Pleco as a tankmate so no one to fight with.

> I'd guess that he's actually more *cautious*, not really slow. We have a

Yes, I think you are right - cautious is the better word.

Ali Brown recently teased me saying "Leave it to you, Helix, to end up
with a reactive fish!" (Ali and I both teach reactive dogs)

Helix Fairweather

[Janice Ritter]

> He only has a hidden Pleco as a tankmate so no one to fight with.

They tend to get bolder if they have dither fish like a school of tetras to
attack sometimes. Not so nice for the tetras. The tank, of course, has to be
large enough to support the dither fish having a chance of getting away,
too.

> Ali Brown recently teased me saying "Leave it to you, Helix,
> to end up with a reactive fish!" (Ali and I both teach reactive dogs)

That's funny. :) I, too, tend to end up dealing with the more reactive set
of dogs. The herding breeds in particular are what make my heart sing. But
boy, they have their reactivity issues, too. Interesting that we both like
cichlids - bright, reactive, can be aggressive, but so engaging in some
unique ways.

-Janice R.

[Helix Fairweather]

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Janice Ritter wrote:

> That's funny. :) I, too, tend to end up dealing with the more reactive set
> of dogs. The herding breeds in particular are what make my heart sing. But
> boy, they have their reactivity issues, too. Interesting that we both like
> cichlids - bright, reactive, can be aggressive, but so engaging in some
> unique ways.

Yes, love those herding breeds! RE: cichlid - I had to get a fish that was
"pretty" so he would show up on video well. :)

Helix

[Janice Ritter]

Ha ha!! Cichilds, especially Central American cichlids, can really steal
your heart if you don't mind that they tear up their plants, gravel, and
attack most other fish. ;-) I believe cichlids are used a lot at the Max
Planck Institute for animal behavior studies. :)

[Finn]

1st Lesson-not quite a success...

So got set up with feeding wand, food, pen light. Have 2 goldfish in
the tank. We started with just 1 for training purposes but the little
guy seemed stressed-wouldn't come out from behind his plant for 2
days. So we bought a tank divider and added a friend.

Held the feeding wand in a position close the active happy fish and
waited. Waited some more. Moved wand even closer, he turned slightly
towards wand so flashed light and released the food.
(We'd bought tiny little frozen blood worms (Sally's frozen blood
worms tropical fish food) on the recommendation of the pet store when
I asked for some really exciting fish treat. Just saw your
recommendation today re the Hikari Chiclid Gold Pellets Dean so we'll
try those. Thanks for that link.)

Anyways, when I released the food, it just sorta floated around the
tank past the fish. Not much associating went on. Repeated a bit
later. Again not much interest. Went and sat on the edge of the pond
and fed the pond fish with the wand. Better results there. Bigger,
older fish, lots of interest. Just let them eat from the wand and
flashed the light at them (figured it couldn't hurt for them to have
the light flashing while they fed)

We'll try the new food maybe and should we shut off the filter so
there's less flow during training? Might keep the feed from drifting
away on the current. Maybe give them more time to settle into the
tank? Little silver's been in the tank since Mon afternoon. The bigger
guy's is a year old and has been living in the outdoor pond but was
only transferred into the tank today.

So we'll keep trying and give them some time to make the connection.

Finn

[Dr. Dean]

Finn,

It sounds like your goldfish still have a little adjusting to do in
their new tank with divider. I'd give it a few days before you start
training them. Make sure they are eating normally (without the feeding
wand) before attempting to start training them. If your fish are
adjusted and hungry enough, they should snap up the bloodworms, but it
may be worth trying the baby size pellets too.

[Finn]

>>Make sure they are eating normally (without the feeding
wand) before attempting to start training them.<<

OK. Good advice.

>> If your fish are adjusted and hungry enough, they should snap up the bloodworms<<

Oh, so those are good treats? Trying to find the golfish equivalent of
Helix' live shrimp!

Finn

[Professor Freshwater]

I really recommend using gel food as the main diet for goldfish. It helps prevent constipation/bloating problems (which can lead to swim bladder disease), it can be cut into as many small training bits as needed, and the fish absolutely love it. It's much healthier and safer than pellets or flakes. I use Mazuri Aquatic Gel Diet: https://www.mazuri.com/Home.asp?Products=2&Opening=2 . I feed my 4.5" (excluding tail) Ryukin a 1/4" square piece of this food in the morning, and in the evening, a pea or a piece of cooked spinach in a veggie clip.

I add baby food vegetables (peas, carrots) to the gel mix. Some people make their own recipes:

http://thegab.org/Articles/GelFoodRecipes.html

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/GelFood.html

It's also a good idea to feed each goldfish a cooked pea (skin removed) several times a week, again, to prevent constipation. They love peas, too.

Regards,
Diane

http://www.freshwaterpearlspuppetry.com/bubbleblog/

[Finn]

Thanks Diane!

Who knew goldfish liked and needed peas! Eat your peas!

Finn

[Dr. Dean]

Diane,

I too have seen goldfish (particularly fancy variaties like Ricky and
Mango) suffering from swim bladder disease. Very hard to watch.

I feed mine goldfish cooked, deshelled peas regularly. I still use
pellets as a staple training food though. The way I avoid problems
with constipation & bloating is to soak the pellets for a few minutes
before each feeding session. I put a very thin film of water on the
bottom of a saucer and sprinkle the baby-size pellets on top. After a
couple minutes, they've soaked up enough water to be soft, but also
still hold together enough to load in the feeding wand. I'm
definitely going to try the gel food next. Thanks for the tip!

[Helix Fairweather]

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008, Dr. Dean wrote:

> bottom of a saucer and sprinkle the baby-size pellets on top. After a
> couple minutes, they've soaked up enough water to be soft, but also
> still hold together enough to load in the feeding wand. I'm

Hey! I'm going to try soaking the expensive Cichlid pellets Cartman won't
eat and see if that makes them more palatable!

Helix

[Finn]

Does the Mazuri Aquatic Gel Diet need to be cooked as part of the
prep?

My Dad looked into it and says it's a powder that you have to cook...

[Finn]

> Does the Mazuri Aquatic Gel Diet need to be cooked as part of the prep?<

OK. snot cook, but soak in hot water then chill overnight

From the website:

Mazuri Aquatic Gel Diet Feeding Directions

Mix with an appropriate amount of hot water (over 200 F). Blend with a
spoon for one minute and pour into a flat pan to cool. Chill overnight
in a refrigerator. Cut the gel by hand or with a food processor to
obtain an appropriate size to feed.

The firmness of the gel is affected by the amount of water used. A
good starting point is to use a 50:50 ratio by weight of dry diet and
water.

Is this what folks here do? What's the ratio for goldfish and the
feeding wand?

Finn

[freshwater]

Here's how I prepare Mazuri gel food:

1) Zero a measuring cup on a food scale. Add 1 oz (by weight) of
Mazuri gel powder.

2) Boil about 1/3 cup of water.

3) Zero a small glass on food scale. Add 0.8 oz (by weight) of the
hot water.

4) Dissolve one acidophilus tab in the water.

5) Mix water and powder.

6) Add ~ 1T of veggie (carrots, peas, etc) baby food. Mix.

7) Spoon the gel food into a square Tupperware container and spread
out with a spatula to a depth of 1/4”.

8) Put in refrigerator until set.

9) When set, cut into 1/4 inch squares with a knife. Put in freezer.

10) Feed each fish a 1/4 x 1/4 inch square piece per day in am (peas
or other veggies in pm).

~ Makes about 100 pieces

*****

A little bit of the stuff goes a long way. Prepared gel lasts only 3
days in the refrigerator, but in the freezer it lasts 3 months. The
powder has a 6 month shelf life. I've always ended up throwing some
out after 6 months. You'd have to have a lot of fish to use a whole
jar!

The other foods that I sometimes use, if the fish needs medicating,
are Goldfish Connection's ( ) medi-Gold and metro-Med. They are
pellets, which, like Dean, I soak in a little bit of water for 10
minutes before feeding.

[freshwater]

Whoops! I meant to post this link: http://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/listing.php?parentId=5

Regards,
Diane

http://www.freshwaterpearlspuppetry.com/bubbleblog/

[Finn]

Thanks!