FDS Computer

[ivory]

Hi All,
I am looking at having a new computer built entirely for FDS. My
question is what computer specs would the FDS community recommend for
an exclusively FDS computer?. What is working well for you?

King Regards
Ivory*

[Bryan Klein]

http://www.apple.com/macpro/

Personal opinion,
-Bryan

[John Leidel]

Cray XT5 :-)

[Glenn Forney]

The simple answer to your question would be to get the best computer
that you could afford where I would define best as

1) fast duo core CPU - two duo-cores if you can afford them.

2) lots of memory, at least 3GB if you use a 32 bit OS and 1GB per core
if you have more than 2 cores,

3) lots of hard drive space at least a couple of hundred GB's, You can
always supplement hard disk space later with external USB or e-sata drives.

4) OS that is "best" supported by the FDS/Smokeview development team.
In my opinion this would be a Windows PC for Smokeview and a Windows PC
or Linux PC for FDS - unfortunately and again this is my opinion, though
the Mac has a lot of virtues it is not a good choice for FDS or
Smokeview for the simple reason that we do not develop FDS and Smokeview
on the Mac (or the Cray for that matter!) I develop Smokeview on a
Windows PC and FDS is developed on a Windows PC and a Linux PC (Kevin
can speak better to which platform he and others use more). So if there
are problem occuring on a Mac we have limited abilities to fix them.
(There was a period of several months last year when I couldn't even
build Smokeview on the Mac)

For futher insight, go to the FDS - Smokeview download page under
http://fire.nist.gov/fds and see how many people are downloading which
versions of the software.
glenn

--
Glenn Forney
National Institute of Standards and Technology
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8663
Gaithersburg MD 20899-8663

Telephone: (301) 975 2313
FAX: (301) 975 4052

Pre-decisional and sensitive information. Not for attribution, distribution, or reproduction.

[Kevin]

Glenn is right. Macs are technically better machines than Windows-
based PCs, but Apple keeps changing their OS and chip architectures
and we cannot keep up. Even if you get your own compiler and compile
FDS, you may still not be able to run Smokeview, which pretty much
defeats the purpose of getting a new machine. Also, if you are not
familiar with OSX and Unix, you may find yourself stuck. Same goes for
Linux. Linux is also a better OS than Windows, but if you are
unfamiliar with it, and have no one to help you, I do not recommend
this either.

BTW, if there are any Mac enthusiasts out there who can help us
compile Smokeview for all its various configurations, let us know.

On Apr 3, 10:22 pm, Glenn Forney <glenn.for...@nist.gov> wrote:
> The simple answer to your question would be to get the best computer
> that you could afford where I would define best as
>
> 1) fast duo core CPU - two duo-cores if you can afford them.
>
> 2) lots of memory, at least 3GB if you use a 32 bit OS and 1GB per core
> if you have more than 2 cores,  
>
> 3) lots of hard drive space at least a couple of hundred GB's,   You can
> always supplement hard disk space later with external USB or e-sata drives.
>
> 4) OS that is "best" supported by the FDS/Smokeview development team.  
> In my opinion this would be a Windows PC for Smokeview and a Windows PC
> or Linux PC for FDS - unfortunately and again this is my opinion, though
> the Mac has a lot of virtues it is not a good choice for FDS or
> Smokeview for the simple reason that we do not develop FDS and Smokeview
> on the Mac (or the Cray for that matter!)  I develop Smokeview on a
> Windows PC and FDS is developed on a Windows PC and  a Linux PC (Kevin
> can speak better to which platform he and others use more).  So if there
> are problem occuring on a Mac we have limited abilities to fix them.  
> (There was a period of several months last year when I couldn't even
> build Smokeview on the Mac)
>

> For futher insight, go to the FDS - Smokeview download page underhttp://fire.nist.gov/fdsand see how many people are downloading which

[Bryan Klein]

Sometimes the answer is not what is the best computer/OS, instead it
is what OS can the two lead developers (Glenn and Kevin), most
effectively support.
Thankfully they both run more modern versions of Windows and Linux and
have focused on supporting those Operating systems.

The argument about Apple changing chips (PPC to Intel X86) and
versions of the OS every 2 years or so is a valid one, OS X does force
you to keep your OS moving forward (progress, who needs it?). Unlike
the fairly "consistent" Windows XP which was released in 2001 and will
be supported until April 2009 with the subsequent fee based support
ending in 2012. Vista is not supported by the development team, so
you may not want to "upgrade" the Windows OS just yet. There are
always minor issues that have to be worked out when things change,
unless you stay with computers and Operating systems that change once
a decade, then you don't have much to worry about.

Currently, I have no problem building and running FDS on OS X 10.5
(Leopard) on 8 cores and 16 GB of RAM, it has excellent performance in
both 32 and 64 bit modes. Even the OpenMPI version works very well
now. With OS X, I can do everything Windws and Linux users can do and
more. So, I guess that should be taken into consideration. I have
attached a screen shot for more information, you can see I don't seem
to be having any trouble with OS X running FDS and Smokeview (Natively
and/or in virtual Windows XP).

I say price it all out and get the fastest CPU's and most RAM you can
afford then use whatever OS you are most comfortable with. With
Windows XP, Linux or OS X, there will be someone here to help you out.

Good luck and be careful when treading in lands with OS zealots, you
never know when a civil flame war might erupt. :)
-Bryan

--
Bryan Klein
bryan...@nist.gov

National Institute of Standards and Technology

100 Bureau Drive, Mail Stop 8663
Gaithersburg MD 20899
Phone: 301 975 5171
Fax: 301 975 4052

[Kevin]

The usually unflappable Mac guy is getting a little defensive. Cue PC
guy -- "Hey, Mac, you seem a bit testy this morning. Too much coffee?
Your Java's not working like it should?"

Yes, never discuss politics, religion, or computer operating systems
in mixed company. Then again, OS and religion are one in the same.
Let's all agree that OSX and Linux are superior operating systems to
Windows, but we (at least Glenn and I) have found that Windows is the
easiest platform on which to support FDS and Smokeview compilation/
distribution because of its backward compatibility. Plus, if FDS or
Smokeview does not work on your Windows machine, there's a fairly
large group of users beyond NIST who can help you out. If you have a
particular OSX or Linux configuration, we and the user community may
not be able to help you. All I can say is that if you decide to get a
non-Windows platform, keep your OS up to date. We can support the
latest Mac OS and chip set, but we may not be able to support an older
version (pre-OSX 10.4, for example).

Personally, I prefer Linux as a computing platform, and I have forced
myself to learn enough about Windows to compile and run FDS, plus do
the usual office-type work. So I run calcs on a Linux cluster, and
view output on my PC using a Samba file sharing system. Others may
have their own way of doing things, and we want to develop FDS and
Smokeview to enable you to configure your work environment the way
that's best for you.

> >  http://fire.nist.gov/fdsand see how many people are downloading which

> >  versions of the software.
> >  glenn
>
> >  ivory wrote:
> >  > Hi All,
> >  > I am looking at having a new computer built entirely for FDS. My
> >  > question is what computer specs would the FDS community recommend for
> >  > an exclusively FDS computer?. What is working well for you?
>
> >  > King Regards
> >  > Ivory*
>
> >  --
> >  Glenn Forney
> >  National Institute of Standards and Technology
> >  100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8663
> >  Gaithersburg MD 20899-8663
>
> >  Telephone: (301) 975 2313
> >  FAX:       (301) 975 4052
>
> >  Pre-decisional and sensitive information.   Not for attribution, distribution, or reproduction.
>
> --
> Bryan Klein

> bryan.kl...@nist.gov

>
> National Institute of Standards and Technology
> 100 Bureau Drive, Mail Stop 8663
> Gaithersburg MD 20899
> Phone: 301 975 5171
> Fax: 301 975 4052
>

>  OSX_WinXP.png
> 673KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[PeteM]

I would not like to comment on the merits and/or demerits of either
Mac or PC based hardware. I just want to follow up on Bryan's message
re Vista; whilst it may not yet be supported by the team I have run a
number of scenarios (with validation back to an XP machine) without
experiencing any problems.

Pete

> > >  http://fire.nist.gov/fdsandsee how many people are downloading which

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Bryan Klein]

Pete, just to clarify, there are no problems during installation or
with security/permissions with FDS?
We have heard reports of trouble from the Vista users.
http://groups.google.com/group/fds-smv/search?group=fds-smv&q=Vista

If so, is there anything that we can change to make FDS or Smokeview
more Vista compatible?

-Bryan

--
Bryan Klein
bryan...@nist.gov

[Bryan Klein]

Java works fine, I just hadn't had it yet this morning. :)
I just thought I should answer some bold over/under statements with
some of my own.

I apologize if I have ruffled any feathers with my pro-Mac banter.
I am a recently converted Mac user and as are typical converts I am
still a bit of a zealot. :)

-Bryan

--
Bryan Klein
bryan...@nist.gov

[Glenn Forney]

I may have over-stated my mis-givings on the Mac assuming that FDS and
Smokeview can be acceptably run in the various virtual OS enviironments
that the Mac provides (such as Parallels) . I would be curious to know
what performance these virtual environments impose. That is, if
Smokeview runs at 35 fps using a native Mac build , what would the frame
rate be under parallels and same question for FDS. How fast does FDS
run natively on the Mac comopared to running under Parallels.

Regardless of what computer platform you wish to obtain you should
either be familiar with it, be willing to learn the nitty gritty
required details or have access to someone who is already familiar.

[John Leidel]

Just as an aside to Glen's post....

IFF, you purchase a new system [AMD or Intel based]. Make sure you
compile for the target architecture. The reason being, that many of the
native processor architectures run at 4 operations per clock cycle [as
opposed to two]. You'll need to compile on the arch to take advantage
of this....

So... if you're running a Mac with an Intel Woodcrest or Clovertown
chip.. you're running at 4ops/clock.

beers
john

[PeteM]

Bryan,

I think the issues with Vista may be isolated to the parallel
implementation. I cannot comment on this at the moment as I only run
single FDS operations; lucky enough to have access to a decent machine
which can be left to run permanently. No issues at all with running
FDS or Smokeview.

I do have access to a dual core machine with Vista so if I get time
may try a parallel run.

Pete

On Apr 5, 12:55 am, "Bryan Klein" <bryanwkl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pete, just to clarify, there are no problems during installation or
> with security/permissions with FDS?

> We have heard reports of trouble from theVistausers.http://groups.google.com/group/fds-smv/search?group=fds-smv&q=Vista

>
> If so, is there anything that we can change to make FDS or Smokeview
> moreVistacompatible?
>
> -Bryan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 6:38 PM, PeteM <petem...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >  I would not like to comment on the merits and/or demerits of either
> >  Mac or PC based hardware.  I just want to follow up on Bryan's message

> >  reVista; whilst it may not yet be supported by the team I have run a

> >  > > ending in 2012.  Vistais not supported by the development team, so

> >  > > >  http://fire.nist.gov/fdsandseehow many people are downloading which

> Fax: 301 975 4052- Hide quoted text -

[Kevin]

I believe there was some discussion of running parallel under Vista. I
think it comes down to "unblocking" security features that would
prevent you from launching executables on a machine other than your
own.

> > >  > > >  http://fire.nist.gov/fdsandseehowmany people are downloading which

[John Leidel]

You might also check to make sure your MPI distro is supported under
Vista. I'm not personally a Windows scientific user [or any other type
of user for that matter], but I've heard of some various oddities in
just getting code to compile and run on Vista [especially 64bit
Vista].

Quick google search reveals Deino MPI [based on MPICH2 from Argonne].
It supports Vista 32 and 64bit.

http://mpi.deino.net/

cheers
john

[ivory]

Thank you for your assistance in this matter as always it is greatly
appricated. :)

Kind Regards
Ivory

> > > > >  > > >  http://fire.nist.gov/fdsandseehowmanypeople are downloading which

[Bartek]

Hi
I'm wonder...
anybody try to run FDS on Cell proccessor (PS3)?
7 special vector cores... maybe can be useful for FDS purposes?

Bartek

[John Leidel]

Bartek, you have to be careful who your apps are constructed when
running on cell's [as with many other architectures]. The memory
bandwidth performance on the cell is not what most are accustomed to on
scalar processors.