Fwd: occ: Road Courtesy

[David Lamb]

Bob - you are fighting the good fight but all the way uphill...see the OCC thread below...

dl

David Lamb 
 
585-733-3604

www.linkedin.com/in/davidlambnyscpa

-------- Original Message --------

Subject:	occ: Road Courtesy
Date:	Wed, 08 May 2013 07:17:27 -0400
From:	Richard Rybinski <rm...@twcny.rr.com>
Organization:	R. M. Rybinski, L.S.
To:	o...@lists.onondagacyclingclub.org

I really don't want to jump into this discussion but.....  Last Saturday around noon I was driving north on Pompey Center Rd. with my wife.  We noticed many small groups of cyclists all riding near the white line enjoying the ride and sharing the road.  However, we came up on one group that had one rider pedaling in the middle of the lane while everyone else was near the white line.  This rider made no effort to move over but continued in the middle of the road as if he owned it.  While passing him my wife and I got into a discussion about inconsiderate cyclists.  99% of the cyclists were responsible yet this one rider gave the whole group a bad name.  As a car driver I felt like laying on the horn but some how I knew it probably wouldn't change his behavior.  He has a better chance of improving his riding habits if his companions demand better of him.  There will always be a few crank motorists who don't believe bikes should be on the road but there is much the cyclists can do so letters like Mr. DeRollo's  will be rare.

Dick Rybinski

On 5/7/2013 7:21 PM, Daniel Wnorowski wrote:

We need to be especially diligent about riding correctly, on the far right: see SAGA's advice and string of emails beginning with a formal complaint to the OCC about riding into the right lane, and this guy lives on 91 in Jamesville, directly on the route where we will be riding.

From SAGA, Chuck D: "Bike Problems", with good input in response to complainer Mr. Ron DeRollo, from OCC President Mike L and another wise man with great common sense Gus E.u

Note Chuck's use of the term "arrow bars", I am thinking he means "aero bars":

"This sounds like a job for SAGA.

Yes we should talk to this gentlemen and explain who we are . We are OCC and when we want to take up the entire lane we will do so. 

Last Sunday's ride was a perfect example of just how powerful we can be. As soon as we left the parking lot we took up the entire road. When we made a left turn at the light we were 4 wide on a two lane part of the highway. Passing our group would have been impossible to do without endangering lives, our lives. 

We as a group have a habit of starting almost every ride, at least the ones I have been to, by taking up the entire lane. And if you look around it is always the same people who seem to want to ride way to the left as if the yellow line is their's to own. 

I have been speaking of this for two years now and I think that if we are not going to change then we might as well own it.

As the SAGA I will once again be mentioning BEST RIDERS and if your name never gets mentioned then either I don't know what I am talking about or you need to sharpen your road riding skills.

When I got into the club many of the guys were not very friendly and were very pointed about my lousy riding skills. I eventually learned not to piss them off. Today we are very touchy feel, we don't want to insult somebody and maybe save their life as a result.

It's time to start calling people out for being inconsiderate or dangerous. I road in with a guy last saturday who is newbie. He had arrow bars and had no idea how to draft. I explained to him that the bars make some people nervous and drafting was a good thing when done right. He is a try athlete and we will be seeing him at the TT soon. We had a great conversation and I learned a little myself . The main thing is that he really appreciated what we discussed. He had no idea that aero bars were a no-no in a group and didn't know anything about drafting. 

As a result I am now his hero and if he ever gets married he promised to name his first born after me. "

On May 6, 2013, at 9:46 PM, Gus Engbretson wrote:

I'll add my two cents worth of agreement with Zeke.

However, that specific area if the road has a narrow and rough shoulder.  The term is "usable" shoulder and right there it really isn't.  Perhaps that was the problem; I hope so.

Most drivers don't realize that wheels and tires on road bikes don't operate very well in gravel and pitted black top.  Some, and Mr. DeRollo might be in that group, think of a double line as an impenetrable barrier. I think it means one cannot pass another moving motor vehicle.  I'll bet if a car was stopped on the side of the road with its left wheels a few feet beyond the white side line toward the middle of the road, ALL drivers would just pull around.  A bike traveling at 2 mph should get the same treatment.

That said, there is no excuse for flipping the bird at an angry driver.  It raises tensions and just gives a bad impression.  I can't tell from the description if the cyclist was in the wrong in the manner in which he was riding but it sounds as though he could have been.  He was definitely in the wrong in his behavior.

Let's have a well behaved ride up 91 on Wednesday.

Gus

Sent from the almighty iPad

On May 6, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Zeke Ronnow <zro...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Well this guy sounds very frustrated for sure. Whether it was a club member or not, we are the obvious target for these reactions and I don't blame the guy. Not that we can do something about individual riders, but FYI, I believe our ride Wed evening goes through Jamesville and up Rt 91. I would forward this to Dan W as he is the ride leader. I would let him know that as a groupWed night we MUST ride on the shoulder and be courteous to drivers or else people like him WILL have a legit beef with us that night. Maybe tell the fast group to cool it up the hill and ride single file as well as all the groups. A good night to demonstrate good riding skills. I would also advise you to have an open dialog with this guy as it might help our  relations with this guy and the public.

From: Michael Lyon <ride...@twcny.rr.com>
To: 'Ronald DeRollo' <rder...@twcny.rr.com> 
Cc: OCC Board <bik...@lists.onondagacyclingclub.org>
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: bikebod: Bike riding problems

I have sent this to our board

 

From: Ronald DeRollo [mailto:rder...@twcny.rr.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 2:07 PM
To: ride...@twcny.rr.com
Subject: Bike riding problems

 

Hello Mike- I’m at my wits end with so many of the bike riders on my road- Rt 91, Jamesville. This letter to you is not meant to be mean spirited in any way. I think bike riding is a great sport. But I have to tell you that a lot of the bikers that I and my neighbors have run into are very inconsiderate on the road. Contrary to what the law says, they ride in the road- not on the shoulder- even if there’s a 5 ft. shoulder. Consequently, cars are crossing into the on-coming lane and going across double solid lines to go around the bikers. This is very dangerous. I almost got got hit head on three times last year with cars having to go around bikes and a lot of other people I know seem to have similar tales to tell. If we beep our horns to try and get them to pull onto the shoulder, they flip us off. I‘m not blaming you or your club but I am looking for a little help and advice in this matter. I’ve contacted the sheriff’s office last year, they said they would stop any violators and sent me a copy of the law regarding this. It clearly says that bikes should ride in the bike lane or on the shoulder of the road so as to not inconvenience the automobiles. I almost got rear ended this morning because of a bike rider and sent an email to the sheriff (below). Maybe you could post something about this on your website or club? Again, nothing mean spirited here- just looking for advice. Thank you! Ron

Lt. Curt Dailey- The law says that “bicycles should ride on a bike lane or usable shoulder when provided”. Well, that’s exactly the problem in Jamesville. These bike riders insist on riding in the road- in the car lane. I was almost rear ended today while going around the blind curve next to Onondaga County Department of Transportation on Rt. 91 where I live. The bicyclist was in the road, not the usable shoulder and I wasn’t going to pass since there were double solid lines and it was a blind curve- so, I slowed down to 2mph and stayed in back of the bike. I honked my horn to get the bicyclist to pull on to the shoulder and he just flipped me off. Now, another car in my lane doing 50 mph comes around that curve and has to slam on the brakes to avoid rear ending me since I was just about stopped in the road. This is a serious problem. The bicyclists either don’t know the law or they don’t care. They show little or no courtesy towards the cars on the road. And shouldn’t they be required to have rear view mirrors just like cars? Are they special? I am going to contact the lawmakers about this but I would expect your department to also contact them. How do we let these bicyclists know that they should ALWAYS ride on the shoulder of the road and as far away from the 5,000lb steel boxes doing 55mph as possible. Please advise. 

Ron DeRollo

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----Daniel Wnorowski

----www.genufix.com

"The word adventure has gotten overused. For me adventure is when everything goes wrong. That's when the adventure starts." -Yvon Chouinard

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[Cindy Fleischer]

I read the article Bob linked us to: http://blog.bikeleague.org/blog/2013/04/bike-law-university-where-to-ride-laws-2/, including the chart of state laws.  If, indeed the chart is accurate, NYS sports what arguably is the least bike-friendly lane laws of all states excluding Alaska and New Mexico.

Having noted that, however, the quoted law doesn't say bike riders *should* ride on the shoulder or *must* ride on the shoulder.  It says (and this is a direct quote): 

"near the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway or upon a usable right-hand shoulder in such a manner as to prevent undue interference with the flow of traffic."  

Only two exceptions: 1) Making a left hand turn and 2) avoiding hazards.

Some qualifiers there.  Near - Usable - Undue

Who judges "undue interference?"  On a club ride last week a dozen or so of us were humping up a short hill when a garbage truck came upon us.  We were pretty far over toward the minimal shoulder.  The truck driver hesitated for a minute or so, then chose to overtake us, crossing the yellow line before the peak of the hill.  You guessed it, a car coming in the opposite direction had to pull off the roadway to let the truck (and us) through.  Would it have been more appropriate for us to "take the lane" causing the truck driver to stay behind us?  Is this appropriate or "undue" interference?

Is a shoulder littered with stones, glass, branches, lawn clippings, etc. a "usable right-hand shoulder"?  How about one that is six inches wide?  One made of gravel?

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<Attached Message Part.txt>

[Bob Cooper]

Cindy quotes NYS law verbatim: “… in such a manner as to prevent undue interference with the flow of traffic.”

Note that the law does not say “in such a manner as to insure the cyclist’s safety.”

This law was not written with cyclist’s safety in mind nor was that even minimally important to the lawmakers.

NYS lawmakers’ only concern is that faster traffic not be delayed.

I would like to refresh Cindy’s memory: The oncoming car not only pulled over, he came to a complete stop, because he did not have a shoulder on his side either. So, traffic was indeed being unduly interfered with, because we were not far enough left. Not because we were not far enough right. And because the truck driver, who somehow qualified for a CDL, was an incompetent scofflaw.

Lucky for the oncoming motorist that he wasn’t Stirling Moss coming over the hill in his Lotus Elite with all four wheels of the ground. (It happens. I did it once in my 1968 Volvo 242.)

Bob

[Ed Hansen]

Cindy

 

All good points...and the key word not mentioned is "interpretation".....the cyclist and the cars...obviously both different (add multiple opinions if you involve the courts to decifer the "written" law).  I guarantee you that if we asked drivers if they would ride on the shoulder w/glass, sand, stones, etc....they would look stone faced and offer an ignorant answer something to the effect of "um, yeah, well, like that's your problem, man"....

 

We can only do OUR best and be as smart as we can.

 

Cheers,

Ed

 

 

----Daniel Wnorowski

----http://www.genufix.com/

"The word adventure has gotten overused. For me adventure is when everything goes wrong. That's when the adventure starts." -Yvon Chouinard

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<Attached Message Part.txt>

[Bob Cooper]

How does your riding group change lanes? Safely, civilly, confidently and legally?

This is how the geeks and dorks do it, 0:48-minute version:

http://vimeo.com/42872314

This is how the geeks and dorks do it, 4:14-minute version:

http://vimeo.com/42872314

Animated version, 3:02 minutes, with Babes-on-Bikes, not dorky:

http://vimeo.com/52474720

Enjoy,

Bob

[Bob Cooper]

John Forester, dean of cycling safety training and policy, had this to say a couple of days ago on the BicycleDriving list:

"...with a lane that is not wide, the typical situation, any safe overtaking operation by a motorist requires some use of the adjacent lane. He is not allowed to use any part of that lane unless it is clear of traffic at that time. Therefore, the lateral position of the cyclist within [a] lane is completely irrelevant to the probability of a safe overtaking movement; the deciding factor is the traffic in the adjacent lane."

Common sense, laws of physics, rules of the road, care for others, Christian Charity, what am I leaving out?

If one cannot see over the hill, one must not use the opposite lane. Duh.

Bob

[Robert Cooper]

Fast Eddie cogently wrote: “We can only do OUR best and be as smart as we can.”

I second the emotion. I want to get smarter. What’s my first step in that direction? What should I do next?

Ciao,

Bob "Fast Learner" Cooper

[Mark]

cresting a hill is always one of the most dangerous times for a cyclist because a vehicle coming up the other side may be too far left or is being passed by another vehicle as the truck did to your group. My advice in this particular situation, including our quietest country roads, is to stay far to the right cresting a hill.

Sent from my Nokia E7

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Cooper
Sent: 05/08/2013, 3:37 PM
To: fast-f...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Bob Cooper
Subject: Re: occ: Road Courtesy

[Bob Cooper]

Peter Rosenfeld, on the chainguard list, today 8 May 2013

[...] before bicyclists learn to integrate well with traffic, their rides are one near miss after another. When you learn to integrate and practice proactive accident avoidance, suddenly all these near misses go away.

Yes, drivers make all sorts of mistakes. But by improving your cycling, you compensate for a lot of this incompetence.

Typical for me is my ride to work on a familiar route along town and suburban roads. The ride is automatic, taking almost no thought. Close calls are extremely rare. I just enjoy the ride and think my thoughts and arrive at work wishing I could do it again. Yet a friend who will not learn safe bicycling, because it is too dangerous in his opinion, takes the same route and arrives at work frazzled, saying the incompetent drivers were out to get him. 

-Peter R

[Bob Cooper]

A camera does not help, if the cyclist is doing everything wrong to begin:

http://youtu.be/jiWvVSGwPnI

All very British, you know...

Carry on, chaps.

[Roger Weston]

Sorry, but one size does not fit All. This move sets you up for the Squeeze Play. More on this later/traveling.

Sent from my iPhone

[Roger Weston]

Well stated.

Sent from my iPhone

--

[Bob Cooper]

http://youtu.be/AcKvBONpxgw

Cycling in Cambridge UK.

One chap says don't worry about the horn blower. He has seen you.

[Bob Cooper]

John Forester just now put this up on the chainguard list, a yahoo group. Quoted in part:

I dislike the hiding behind verbal smokescreens that afflicts so many bicycle advocates. They try to picture the controversy as one about "bicycling facilities" and VC advocates as being against these items, whatever they are. Remember, the most extensive bicycling facilities that exist are our roads.

[Onno Kluyt]

Seen this? http://therochesterian.com/2013/05/01/bicycle-boulevards/

On May 12, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Bob Cooper <robertco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> John Forester just now put this up on the chainguard list, a yahoo group. Quoted in part:
>
> I dislike the hiding behind verbal smokescreens that afflicts so many bicycle advocates. They try to picture the controversy as one about "bicycling facilities" and VC advocates as being against these items, whatever they are. Remember, the most extensive bicycling facilities that exist are our roads.
>

[Robert Cooper]

Onno,

Thanks for posting this link.

I’m always interested in the Comments Section, and this time I was rewarded when I found Ben who wrote:

“It would be nice if they did something to make people actually use these. [...] If people are just going to ride their bikes wherever they want anyway, then I don’t see the point of spending money on bike lanes [...] ”

Since there is already a law in New York State requiring cyclists to ride in the bike lane, if one is provided, we are lucky that the RPD is too busy chasing gangsters to bother giving me a ticket for riding outside the bike lane.

This guy in NYC was not so lucky: http://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQ

Bob “Wherever He Wants” Cooper

--

Someone showed me a picture and I just laughed
Dignity never been photographed

[Robert Cooper]

John Forester put this up on the chainguard list, a Yahoo Group, about five minutes ago:

"America absolutely refuses to require that roadway cycling be done in accordance with the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, and is now attempting to entice into bicycle transportation people with no bicycling traffic sense at all."

[tomste...@frontiernet.net]

This cop is an idiot!

---

From: Robert Cooper <robertco...@gmail.com>
To: Fast Friends <fast-f...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 12:14 PM

Subject: Re: occ: Road Courtesy

[Robert Cooper]

Well, actually, this is one of those “special laws” that apply only to cyclists:

    § 1234. [...] Upon all roadways, any bicycle [...] shall be driven either on a usable bicycle lane or, if a usable bicycle [...] lane has not been provided, near the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway or upon a usable right-hand shoulder in such a manner as to prevent undue interference with the flow of traffic [...]

Read the statute. The crime is “interference with the flow of traffic.”

The cop may have been an idiot, but he was enforcing the law of the State of New York. Maybe the State Legislature is composed of idiots.

Mark Twain: “Suppose you are an idiot. And suppose you are a member of congress. But I repeat myself.”

[Bob Cooper]

Relevant to Bike-to-Work Day, with an interesting "Comments" section:

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/05/08/bike-to-work-2-where-to-ride/