Share the road and beep-beep

[jan bares]

Driver education is not enough. More importantly, the police officers need to be educated. What should I say to a police officer in Lakeville who asked me to ride in the (gravel !) shoulder because there was too much traffic". It all sounds so nice about holding the lane by riding 4 feet from the curb to make sure that I am not passed un-safely, etc. I am concerned that we live a fantasy (and I participate in it, too), in part fed by viewing videos from more bike-friendly states. I would like to see an adjudication of an accident where cyclist tried to "control the lane". I hope the law professionals can contribute to this discussion. Chris Kvam (the only one I know about) where are you? Jan

[Michael B Burkett]

I live in the city, so the only Police I encounter are RPD.  Luckily, they are pretty bicycle friendly, but that could be in part because they use bicycle patrols.  I ride past RPD officers all the time and often get a friendly nod or wave.  I would have no idea what to say to an officer if that happened to me except try to explain gravel is impossible to safely ride in, especially for a road bike.  That particular officer has obviously not ridden a bike since they were very little and probably never ridden a road bike.  That's one of the drawbacks of our safety conscious culture, when your young you only ride bikes with mom and dad on bike paths, maybe, and never ride for transportation.  Mom and/or dad drive you everywhere you need to go, no matter how close, until you are old enough to drive yourself.  Even I didn't start riding a bike regularly until about 5 years ago and I am 34 now.  I am still learning how to correctly handle most situations and stay safe on my bike.  It's hard to educate a public whose only experience of bikes is as toys only to be ridden on the bike path.  Most of us have had it drilled into our heads that roads are scary and unsafe places to be avoided at all costs since we were 5 years old and overcoming that is amazingly hard to do.  Luckily, I think if I can do it then there is still hope to educate most of the rest of the public.

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[Robert Cooper]

Mr. Fletcher and Mr. Kvam, being attorneys, are probably not at liberty to address legal issues in any significant detail in an on-line forum, beyond merely quoting the law. (I didn't know that Mr. Fletcher was an attorney when I asked for his interpretation.)

Anyway, Jan does raise an interesting question: Would some legal advice from some source or another be beneficial to Rochester-area cyclists?

Perhaps. However, I believe that the legal option is putting too much emphasis in the wrong place. There is a cyclist involved in every single cycling problem that occurs, whereas only sometimes is there a member of the general public involved and seldom are legal and law enforcement professionals involved.

About half of all cycling injuries needing medical attention do not involve a collision with a motor vehicle but are the result of the simple inability of the cyclist to cope with the environment in which he finds himself.

On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:00 AM, jan bares <jb3...@att.net> wrote:

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Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles.

http://tinyurl.com/Why-do-you-ride-like-that

[Robert Cooper]

On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:00 AM, jan bares <jb3...@att.net> wrote:

It all sounds so nice about holding the lane by riding 4 feet from the curb to make sure that I am not passed un-safely, etc.

Jan keeps using the expression, “four feet from the curb.”

The people at iamtraffic.org and cyclingsavvy.org have identified three behaviors, which they label Pedestrian Behavior, Edge Behavior and Driver Behavior.

http://iamtraffic.org/engineering/behaviors-and-risk/

The research that these groups have done show that Pedestrian Behavior, riding following the rules and habits and modes of a pedestrian, is the most dangerous and Driver Behavior is the safest.

After almost two decades riding with the RBC, I can say without blinking that almost all of us almost all of the time exhibit Edge Behavior. Our main objective is to not delay motorists. Our safety is therefore secondary.

Riding four feet from the curb is Edge Behavior, because your lane position is thus based on the location of the curb. The people at iamtraffic.org and cyclingsavvy.org want you ignore the location of the curb and to base your lane position on EVERYTHING ELSE.

That approach presents the cyclist with a huge problem, because, whereas the location of the curb seldom changes, one might even argue that it never changes, everything else is constantly changing.

Since the cycling environment is constantly changing, that means that, if you are going to drive your bicycle, rather than merely ride it, you must be skilled and attentive.

Most of us most of the time are neither

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[Christopher Kvam]

This is a good resource:  http://www.amazon.com/Bicycling-Law-Your-Rights-Cyclist/dp/1931382999 , though I'm not sure how New York specific it is.

 

 

In terms of responding to police officers - I think politely stating "I am following the rules of the road, I have a right to the lane when the shoulder is unsafe, etc." is perfectly acceptable.   As him why he didn't pull over the car that just passed you unsafely.  :)

 

 

In terms of the small minority of cases where collisions are involved, that is a much longer conversation regarding how crimes are charged, what's proveable at trial, etc.  Don't forget the roll of civil litigation and pursing insurance payouts as well, assuming some fault can be shown on the part of the driver.  Generally the burden of proof is much lower in the civil setting, and insurers are willing to discuss settlement if there is a police report and/or accident report that shows who was at fault, etc. 

 

I agree with Bob - this isn't about law enforcement, it is about cycling in a way that promotes the highest level of saftey for the rider.  Knowing your "rights" is an important part of that, but using common sense, and promoting highest possible visibility, anticipating how cars will respond to a cyclist in the "lane" vs. on the far right edge, etc.  are at least as important.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

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[jwowk...@rochester.rr.com]

I would have to agree that the RPD is pretty bike friendly. Last Tue on the FMV Rohrbachs Brewery ride, one of the group had a flat tire on Parsells, a somewhat sketchy neighborhood. An RPD car pull up along side the group while we were changing the falt and jokingly said this was not a very good place to get a flat with all those expensive bikes. They then pulled ahead of our group, turned on their roof top flashers and stayed with us till the flat was fixed and we were on our way again.

Steve W

[Christopher Kvam]

Just remember that RPD could technically have ticketed you all for not having a bell or light on your bikes due to a city ordinance requiring both ;)

[Cindy Fleischer]

All cool notations, thanks, and I think whomever mentioned the "cops on bikes detail" as having an effect on the way citizen cyclists are treated may be spot on.  As I recollect, though this may have changed in the past five years, the most sought after RPD assignment is on horseback and second most sought after is on a bicycle.

And why wouldn't it be?

;^)

[Robert Cooper]

Bike cop riding in the "middle of the road."

2:41 minute video.

https://vimeo.com/8876115

[Robert Cooper]

Chris wrote: […]  this isn't about law enforcement, it is about cycling in a way that promotes the highest level of safety for the rider […]

This also has the sweet taste of libertarianism about it: Individual freedom and individual responsibility.

A good, old-fashioned, American do-it-yourself project.

It assumes that our safety is founded upon what each of us does rather than upon what we are able to persuade others to do for us: Motorists, legislators, lawyers, police. 

It’s good to have the support of these others, most of whom are on our side most of the time anyway, but we can begin immediately to take action on our own behalf.

“Why wait any longer for the world to begin; you can have your cake and eat it too.”

[Christopher Kvam]

We don't disagree... But every time we ride we need to acknowledge and react to the road conditions, infrastructure, and traffic as it is, while working towards better.

Sent from my Windows Phone

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From: Robert Cooper
Sent: 6/15/2013 1:09 PM
To: Fast Friends
Subject: Re: Share the road and beep-beep

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