A "formatting" question
Robert Vaughn
may not be the best terminology, but it's all I can
think of at the moment. I will give a couple of
examples, then ask the question(s) below.
1991 Edition. Page 302, Logan, in the 3rd measure of
the fuge in the bass, has three quarter notes tied
together where it seems to me it should simply just be
a dotted half note (there are a few other examples in
this song).
2006 (Cooper) Edition. Page 571, Not Made With Hands,
in the next to last measure of the song in the alto
and bass, has a half note and quarter note tied
together where it seems to me it should simply just be
a dotted half note.
I'm sure the occurrences of this formatting could be
multiplied, but these two examples should suffice.
Is there any musical reason for formatting/printing
these notes this way? The tie should mean that this
should be sounded as one note, so why not print it
that way?
I guess I don't see any musical reason in most cases
to use a tie _within_ a measure. I think I can see a
practical reason for it in SATB two-stave formatting,
but don't see that reason in music with a separate
staff for each part. I can think of exceptions where
the tie might be the easier way to format the notes,
but not any reason to use it when there is a simpler
presentation.
I also wonder if this formatting causes some to sing
(for example) la-la-la instead of la (3 beats) when
the notes are sung. I haven't noticed or thought about
this before, but I going to try to start listening for
it.
Just wondering, because both of these examples struck
me as odd yesterday when we sang them. Thanks.
Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com/
"Ask for the old paths, where is the good way."
http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com/
"For ask now of the days that are past..."
Stephen Conte
wrote:
> Is there any musical reason for formatting/printing
> these notes this way? The tie should mean that this
> should be sounded as one note, so why not print it
> that way?
Perhaps to indicate the secondary accent or pulse, which might otherwise
be lost in the singing of a single sustained note.
Logan: "PA-a-AST and"
Not Made with Hands: "MA-a-ADE with"
Ever,
Stephen Conte
Karen
You asked about ties and alternative ways of portraying held notes...
I, myself, avoid what you've seen in these two songs, unless doing so would make it easier for the singers to count out their rhythm in a given measure. Otherwise I use the longest duration note possible rather than ties.
Dots can be tricky for many singers to count out, though, particularly in certain time signatures, while a common note such as a quarter note or 8th note they know what to do with. But your two examples? No, I wouldn't typeset 'em the way we've got 'em.
Stephen speculates that the accent needs of the measure has played a role. In my limited experience, singers learn accenting from their neighbors on the bench rather than from what they see on the page, so I'm inclined to not agree with that answer.
Karen Willard
Karen Willard
Robert Vaughn
wrote:
> Perhaps to indicate the secondary accent or pulse,
> which might otherwise
> be lost in the singing of a single sustained note.
>
> Logan: "PA-a-AST and"
> Not Made with Hands: "MA-a-ADE with"
>
would you sing the notes
Logan: "LA-a-AA"
Not Made with Hands: "FA-a"
or
Logan: "LA-LA-LA"
Not Made with Hands: "FA-FA"
?
Wade Kotter
are used instead of dotted notes (or even un-dotted notes) when use of
such notes would obscure the underlying pulse/accents of the music.
This happens all the time in "standard" music with complicated rhythms,
especially when some parts are syncopated and others are not.
Hope this helps.
Wade Kotter
Ogden, UT
--- Stephen Conte <child_o...@iowatelecom.net> wrote:
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Wade Kotter
makes great sense as a rule of thumb.
Wade
--- Karen <karenw...@mac.com> wrote:
____________________________________________________________________________________
Stephen Conte
wrote:
> would you sing the notes
> Logan: "LA-a-AA"
> Not Made with Hands: "FA-a"
> or
> Logan: "LA-LA-LA"
> Not Made with Hands: "FA-FA"
> ?
The first way. I would say "LA" or "FA" only once but go loud-soft-loud to
include both the primary accent on the first beat and the secondary accent
on the third beat.
The secondary accent is more noticeable in some songs than in others. "Not
Made With Hands" is one piece where people tend to hit it particularly
hard.
Ever,
Stephen
Robert Vaughn
> Dots can be tricky for many singers to count out,
> though, particularly in certain time signatures,
> while a common note such as a quarter note or 8th
> note they know what to do with. But your two
> examples? No, I wouldn't typeset 'em the way we've
> got 'em.
>
tricky. I guess I've never thought of it that way,
unless more than one is used. This kind of stuff is
one thing that makes these discussions interesting --
to think of how different Sacred Harp singers perceive
different things. Anyway, I wonder if you would give
an example of dotted notes in certain time signatures
that are tricky. I'm not disagreeing with your
expertise in this area, just wondering which ones you
are thinking of.
When I was thinking of the initial e-mail last night,
I thought of for example of "5/8" -- a half note tied
to an eighth note would certainly seem to be the way
to go, but a tieing a half note to a quarter note
(instead of dotting the half note), just didn't make
any sense to me.
I guess ultimately I was thinking that this is an area
where we've possibly been influenced by two-stave
writing (SATB format). When, say, the tenor and bass
are printed together on the same staff, it is easier
to read (less messy) when both parts follow the same
formatting.
Robert Vaughn
> My
> understanding is that ties
> are used instead of dotted notes (or even un-dotted
> notes) when use of
> such notes would obscure the underlying
> pulse/accents of the music.
I find what you and Stephen write very interesting,
especially the idea that printing the notes that way
tell you to accent it. That formatting doesn't "say"
that to me. I might accent it with a
louder-softer-loud because of it being in 4/4 time,
but have never thought of reading the notes in the way
you all mention (as far as the ties are concerned; I
think of the tie as related to time, not pulse).
Midge Harder
Very often the verses have something to do with this. For instance, one verse has a one-syllable word, while the next has two. To allow for both verses to be accommodated, this is something I have noticed the writers do.
Midge Harder
Santee, CA
----------------------------------------
> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:55:26 -0700
> From: rl_v...@yahoo.com
> Subject: [fasola-discussions] A "formatting" question
> To: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com
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Stephen Conte
> I, myself, avoid what you've seen in these two songs, unless doing so
> would make it easier for the singers to count out their rhythm in a
> given measure.... But your two examples? No, I wouldn't typeset 'em the
> way we've got 'em.
This begs the question.
If they are not needed for ease of counting (rhythm), why are they there?
If not error or ignorance, the other candidate is accent.
Ever,
Stephen Conte
Robert Vaughn
wrote:
> If they are not needed for ease of counting
> (rhythm), why are they there?
> If not error or ignorance, the other candidate is
> accent.
>
Stephen,
I think the options would not have to be limited to
the three you give -- error, ignorance, or accent. A
couple of others could be what Midge Harder mentioned
-- to accommodate one a one-syllable word in one verse
and a two syllable word in another (though this does
not apply to the examples I gave). Another might be
that this is an area where we've possibly been
influenced by two-stave writing in SATB format
(although I suppose that could be fitted into the
error or ignorance category).
Wade Kotter
When typesetting music, I believe you will find that there are often
two or more acceptable ways to notate the same passage. The typesetter
must select the alternative that best fits their interpretation of the
music, their understanding of the needs of those who will be reading
the music, or, in many cases, the requirements of the composer and/or
publisher. Just because Karen would choose a notation different than
that chosen by those who typeset these two songs doesn't mean that one
way is clearly correct and the other way is an error or the result of
ignorance.
Wade
--- Stephen Conte <child_o...@iowatelecom.net> wrote:
____________________________________________________________________________________
Jesse Pearlman Karlsberg
I'd like to throw another example into the mix for which I haven't been able to come up with an explanation. On page 371 in the 1991 Ed. Sacred Harp, a few measures into the bottom brace, both the basses and altos hold a long (7-beat) "sol" while the trebles and tenors run through a sequence of quarter notes. The alto sol is printed as one might expect it to be printed: a whole note tied to a dotted half. Meanwhile, the bass part features a dotted half, a quarter note, and a second dotted half, all three notes tied together.
What might be the purpose of this dotted half, quarter note, dotted half configuration in the bass, both in general, and in contrast to the alto part?
Jesse
Stephen Conte
wrote:
> could be what Midge Harder mentioned
> -- to accommodate one a one-syllable word in one verse
> and a two syllable word in another (though this does
> not apply to the examples I gave).
Yes, I thought about this too. This is common enough with other pieces,
though it would not apply to the given examples.
> Another might be
> that this is an area where we've possibly been
> influenced by two-stave writing in SATB format
> (although I suppose that could be fitted into the
> error or ignorance category).
Interesting speculation, especially considering the time frame for the two
examples.
I looked around a little but could not find much about the origins of "Not
Made With Hands" except that it is by John S. Brown and 1900 copyright
"Brown Bros." This may indicate an SATB origin, but I'll leave that to
others who have easier access to that information.
Ever,
Stephen Conte
Karen
Guilty as charged. I don't really want to try and speculate as to why some other typesetter made the choices they did, though Robert's mentioning of previous incarnations of a song in two staves versus our four sounds likely to me in some cases. And what happens in one stave probably influences what is happening in the others, too. A desire for a kind of visual symmetry (three quarter notes here? then three quarter notes there). And Midge has named another reason that has influenced me, certainly.
When I'm typesetting, I try to bear in mind the needs of ordinary singers as they face the task of sight-reading their part. As Midge mentioned, there's also the need to do the best one can to get the word syllables of the text underneath their proper notes -- difficult when the text departs in some verses but not others from the strict meter of the music. In those cases it is indeed helpful to provide the notes the variant verse will need, while tying them to show how the regular verse will relate to the notes.
I also try to keep my choices true to the time signature. For example, in a 6/4 time song, I could use a dotted whole note or dotted whole rest to indicate a complete measure of 6 beats. But compound time songs are felt and beat in two pulses and so I fill that measure up with tied dotted half notes or tied dotted half rests. This helps the singers, I think, to beat their time in the measure.
I've seen settings of 4/4 songs, particularly in fuging sections, where the voice parts which are resting while another voice has its time in the sun, have their rests indicated by the same duration value as the notes being sung by the active voice part, that is, by quarter rests rather than a whole rest if the singing part is using quarter notes. That choice was probably made to let the resting singers count their rests in consonance with what they're hearing the other vocal part singing. I'm not quite willing to do that, preferring to use whole rests in such a situation, but that is my current preference. Who knows? maybe ten years from now I'll be doing the opposite! <grin> given that my over-riding concern is making it easy for the singers to sight-read their parts.
Karen Willard
Wade Kotter
I don't have any idea on the purpose of this configuration in the bass,
but find it interesting that the difference you point out between the
bass and alto parts of HEAVENLY DOVE goes all the way back to the 1860
edition, when I believe the song first appeared in the Sacred Harp.
Yes, the setting in the 1860 edition is in 4 parts, also a rarity. It
would be interesting to see how this section of the bass part is
notated in Maxim's original....
Wade
--- Jesse Pearlman Karlsberg <je...@silversand.org> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'd like to throw another example into the mix for which I haven't
> been able
> to come up with an explanation. On page 371 in the 1991 Ed. Sacred
> Harp, a
> few measures into the bottom brace, both the basses and altos hold a
> long
> (7-beat) "sol" while the trebles and tenors run through a sequence of
> quarter notes. The alto sol is printed as one might expect it to be
> printed:
> a whole note tied to a dotted half. Meanwhile, the bass part features
> a
> dotted half, a quarter note, and a second dotted half, all three
> notes tied
> together.
>
> What might be the purpose of this dotted half, quarter note, dotted
> half
> configuration in the bass, both in general, and in contrast to the
> alto
> part?
>
> Jesse
Stephen Conte
> Stephen wrote: "This begs the question."
> Guilty as charged.
Since you have so graciously granted my "begs the question" objection,
I'll do an "ad hominem" at my own expense by pointing out that Logan was
written by none other than T.J. DENSON, of all people, the grand patriarch
of our school. If we may assume for the sake of discussion that T.J.
Denson had a reason for writing the notes of Logan the way he did, I
wonder what that reason may have been?
I could not find much on this in the rudiments of the James book or the
later "Denson" editions, but
The Cooper and the White books agree in calling this type of tied notes
"couplets". Strange, since there are four notes in White's example. And
they agree that the shape name is said just once in a tie.
I found the paragraph and diagram (par. 36, on page 11) in the White book
confusing, thinking at first that the "X" was intended to indicate accent;
then I decided it more likely indicated the place at which the shape name
was spoken, as explained in the paragraph.
Ever,
Stephen Conte
Stephen Conte
wrote:
> Just because Karen would choose a notation different than
> that chosen by those who typeset these two songs doesn't mean that one
> way is clearly correct and the other way is an error or the result of
> ignorance.
Yes, I fully agree. If it was error or ignorance our discussion would be
pointless. So, I wonder what made T.J. Denson write it the way he did even
though he surely knew how to do it the other way?
Ever,
Stephen Conte
NICHOLAS PASQUAL
I seem to recall Hugh McGraw providing an answer to this question when he gave a singing school near Decatur, IL, under sponsorship of the Charleston & Springfield groups (2002?). I believe I've heard him retell this a time or two since.
T.J., Hugh said, had been asked why the tied quarter notes at "past" in the bass line of Logan.
I recall Hugh responding approximately that T.J. had said he "wanted to put some science in it."
I suspect there would have been a twinkle in T.J.'s eye at this point.
The inference I drew from this is that one simply should enjoy this bit of notational ambiguity & not make too fine a point of why it is there. When we sing this piece, I like to sound those three tied notes individually when the notes are sung -- I think it helps propel the line along.
Nick Pasqual
Chicago
> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:28:58 -0500
> To: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [fasola-discussions] Re: A "formatting" question
> From: child_o...@iowatelecom.net
>
>
> On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:01:45 -0500, Wade Kotter
Wade Kotter
this way, but I'm not confident enough in my abilities to venture a
guess on what the reason might be, except that he thought it would make
it easier for people to sing. :-)
Take care,
Wade
--- Stephen Conte <child_o...@iowatelecom.net> wrote:
PHNXMike
I don't know the reason for the musical notations, but I do know where the derivation of the name Logan. Logan was a small community near Cullman, AL. My grandmother, Lola Akers, lived there when TJD wrote her a letter in 1912 proposing marriage. She accepted. He had been married previously to Amanda Burdett Denson and they had 5 children. Amanda died after 23 years of marriage. TJD was 53 when he married my grandmother and she was 36 having never married and stayed with and cared for her father and mother, Elder and Mrs Akers. After TJD and Lola married they had 3 daughters about 18 months apart. My mother was the middle daughter and Richard Mauldin's mother was the youngest daughter.
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Robert Vaughn
wrote:
> Since you have so graciously granted my "begs the
> question" objection,
> I'll do an "ad hominem" at my own expense by
> pointing out that Logan was
> written by none other than T.J. DENSON, of all
> people, the grand patriarch
> of our school. If we may assume for the sake of
> discussion that T.J.
> Denson had a reason for writing the notes of Logan
> the way he did, I
> wonder what that reason may have been?
>
This is interesting, though knowing why someone did
something can be can be very hard to trace. It might
be worth noting that this was one of Uncle Tom
Denson's earlier songs, written in 1908. Let me
reemphasize that I don't think that the notation in
either of the songs I mentioned is wrong. They do seem
"odd" to me, and I'm trying to understand what reason
there might have been for making those choices. The
example Jesse gives in the bass in Heavenly Dove also
seems "odd", but Maxim or Ogletree might have had a
reason for notating it so.
Just to throw into the mix, there is also the issue of
printers making errors. But it seems generally that
their errors are more wrong shapes on wrong lines or
shapes, notes filled in or not filled in, etc., and
not of creating extra notes that would still fill in
the time correctly.
> I could not find much on this in the rudiments of
> the James book or the
> later "Denson" editions, but
> The Cooper and the White books agree in calling this
> type of tied notes
> "couplets". Strange, since there are four notes in
> White's example. And
> they agree that the shape name is said just once in
> a tie.
>
I think I read in the 1991 Rudiments that tied notes
are to be sounded as one, but would have to look it up again.
Robert Vaughn
wrote:
> > Another might be
> > that this is an area where we've possibly been
> > influenced by two-stave writing in SATB format
> > (although I suppose that could be fitted into the
> > error or ignorance category).
>
> Interesting speculation, especially considering the
> time frame for the two
> examples.
>
I should emphasize that this is definitely speculation
on my part. But those songs are from a period when a
lot of "external" pressure was pushing against Sacred
Harp and its singers.
I would add that when I wrote "I suppose that could be
fitted into the error or ignorance category," that I
mean someone could probably make that argument. I
don't mean that I would. Different often surprises me;
but different doesn't mean that it is wrong.
STaylor
the way they are notated is that the score lines up better that way.
So, for someone examining the score, looking at the harmony, this is
more convenient. It is probably less so for the singer. If I were
writing a song, I could see myself writing the notes out like this
just to keep track of how the harmony lines up. Maybe this is how it
ended up notated this way - just speculation. One could make the case
that the ties should have been converted to a single note. But, I
never noticed this before in "Not Made With Hands." So, it certainly
isn't a distraction at all.
On Apr 22, 8:46 am, Robert Vaughn <rl_vau...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Stephen Conte <child_of_gr...@iowatelecom.net>
>
> > > Another might be
> > > that this is an area where we've possibly been
> > > influenced by two-stave writing in SATB format
> > > (although I suppose that could be fitted into the
> > > error or ignorance category).
>
> > Interesting speculation, especially considering the
> > time frame for the two
> > examples.
>
> I should emphasize that this is definitely speculation
> on my part. But those songs are from a period when a
> lot of "external" pressure was pushing against Sacred
> Harp and its singers.
>
> I would add that when I wrote "I suppose that could be
> fitted into the error or ignorance category," that I
> mean someone could probably make that argument. I
> don't mean that I would. Different often surprises me;
> but different doesn't mean that it is wrong.
>
> Robert Vaughn