Tenor lines that end on the dominant Sol in Major key songs

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Wade Kotter

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Oct 4, 2009, 3:22:33 PM10/4/09
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Good afternoon!

The vast majority of tenor lines in Major key songs from the 1991 Sacred Harp end on the tonic Fa. However, there are by my count 14 Major key songs, including some of my favorites and also some of the most often-sung songs (such as 146), in which the tenor line ends on the "dominant" Sol instead of the "tonic" Fa; several of them also begin on the "dominant" Sol. In numerical order. these are:

THE CONVERTED THIEF (44)
CUSSETA (73T)
BOUND FOR CANAAN (82T)
THE CHURCH'S DESOLATION (89)
HEAVENLY ARMOR (129)
HALLELUJAH (146)
BOYLSTON (147T)
SHERBURNE (186)
LOUISIANA (207)
WHITE (288)
MARCELLAS (405)
WEEPING PILGRIM (417)
FILLMORE (434)
THE MIDNIGHT CRY (495)

Even though the tenor lines of these songs are all harmonized as Major scale melodies, with the "tonic" Fa in the bass on the final chord, they have a distinctive sound to me that suggests that they might not be "real" Major melodies. Instead, I wonder if these tenor lines might have originally been based on melodic scales using the some tones as the Major scale but beginning with Sol as the tonic (tonal center) instead of Fa. You can think of it as the scale starting on G using only the white notes of the piano. In the medieval mode system, this would be referred to as the Mixolydian scale, although I would not suggest that whoever originated these melodies thought of them as Mixolydian (except perhaps Lowell Mason in the case of BOYLSTON). Instead, I wonder if they were originally based on a variant of a variant of the Major scale beginning on what we would call the dominant but with the 7th (leading) tone of this "Major" scale lowered a half-step. If
so, then this was apparently not understood by those who harmonized these melodies for the Sacred Harp, who instead assumed that these melodies were based on the standard Major scale but, oddly, ended on the dominant Sol, which they could harmonize as part of a tonic chord. For what it's worth, I have seen similar melodies from the Anglo-American folk tradition referred to as Mixolydian, although I don't know if these were harmonized as Mixolydian or as "odd-sounding" Major melodies.

I'd love to hear what you think about this idea, especially if you feel that my idea is off base. And I find it hard to believe that no one else has thought of it, so if you have any references please send them along.

Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT



Noren, Christopher

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Oct 4, 2009, 6:36:09 PM10/4/09
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I believe "Royal Oak" by Lisa Grayson, #94 in her collection THE NEW MILLENNIUM HARP, is harmonized in Mixolydian mode. Lots of fun to sing!

Chris Noren
Bxfd, MA

Gabriel Kastelle

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Oct 4, 2009, 8:15:25 PM10/4/09
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Also another of my favorites:

179  THE CHRISTIAN WARFARE

and, hmmmm.....   in general, lots of William Walker / Southern Harmony tunes--   a disproportionately large number....     a clue for the alert...

Can't say much more on this .......  topic.....

:-)

-- Gabriel Kastelle --

SingMore

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Oct 4, 2009, 6:25:12 PM10/4/09
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It is an interesting question. I do not grasp why you think the
originators would not "think of them as Mixolydian" (whether or not
they used the word Mixolydian). You wrote: "although I would not
suggest that whoever originated these melodies thought of them as
Mixolydian (except perhaps Lowell Mason in the case of BOYLSTON)."

Gabriel Kastelle

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Oct 4, 2009, 8:32:49 PM10/4/09
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394  THE MESSIAH'S PRAISE

(different character ?  similar ?)

-- AGK

Wade Kotter

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Oct 5, 2009, 9:27:01 AM10/5/09
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Good morning!

Yes, this sentence is not as clear as it could have been. Let me try again. I'm suggesting that whoever "originated" these melodies, either by composing them or writing them down after hearing them sung, probably realized that they sounded different than "typical" major tunes and some may have even considered the possibility that they were based on a scale starting with Sol. However, unless they had a sophisticated European musical education that included discussion of the medieval modes, the term "Mixolydian" was not part of the vocabulary they would use in an attempt to explain this difference. Of course, perhaps they never saw a need to explain the difference. When it comes to the harmonization of these tunes in the Sacred Harp and earlier sources like the Southern Harmony, which may or may not have been prepared by the "originator" of the melody, it's clear that these tunes were treated as "typical" Major tunes. Any attempt to analyze these

Hope this helps. If it doesn't, perhaps you should chalk it up to the convoluted thought processes of an absent-minded professor. :-)

Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT

PS: I'd love to be able to refer to you by name. Would you feel comfortable sharing you name with the group?

--- On Sun, 10/4/09, SingMore <trox...@elon.edu> wrote:

Wade Kotter

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Oct 5, 2009, 9:59:45 AM10/5/09
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The last sentence in this message should have read "Any attempt to analyze these melodies must take this observation into account." The "observation" is that these tunes were harmonized as if they were "typical" major tunes. I should also add that I find it very unlikely that those who prepared these harmonizations did not hear a difference between these melodies and more "typical" major melodies.

Wade

--- On Mon, 10/5/09, Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com> wrote:

dadadharma @dslextreme.com

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Oct 5, 2009, 3:05:26 PM10/5/09
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Wade,

Here are a few notes on Mixolydian that I jotted down (or cut and pasted from webpages) years ago --


(1) Brit Isles general

Myxolydian --  in Irish and Scottish folk/traditional music, of 4 modes, it is the least common). 10% of the songs collected and printed in the English Journal of the Folk Song Society from 1899-1931 were Mixolydian.

(2) Folk music examples

The Langstern Pony; The Mooncoin Jig; The Rocky Road to Dublin; The High Reel; The High Road to Linton; The Chanter's Song; The Red-Haired Boy (Hornpipe)

(3) theoretical characterization

According to the theorists of church music, the Mixolydian mode is: "angelical" (D'Arezzo); "of youth" (Fulda); "uniting pleasure and sadness" (Espinoza)...

[copied from wiki long ago]

(4) dulcimer

This webpage lists the following as Myxolydian:

<http://www.folknotes.com/Kart/MDbooks7.html>

Oh Susanna, The Camptown Races, Swanee River, Wildwood Flower, La Paloma, Sonya's Song, Jacky Tar, Silent Night, Sweet Betsy from Pike, Johnny, I hardly Knew You/ When Johnny Comes Marching Home, The Road to Lisdoonvarna, Minuet in G (Bach), Hard Times Come Again No More, My Old Kentucky Home, Red River Valley, Red-Haired Boy, Arkansas Traveler

(5) other secular

"Star Wars" theme, "Star Trek" theme, "Norwegian Wood"

"that Wes Montgomery - George Benson school of playing".

(5) folksy name

Myxolydian is important for bagpipe music, so that would be one place to look.

In Norwegian music, some of the modes have names like "troll major" and "hag minor".

There might be similar reasons for these modes not being explicitly named in the books.

David Olson
Culver City, CA


Wade Kotter

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Oct 5, 2009, 3:36:43 PM10/5/09
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Thanks, David. This is very helpful.

Wade

--- On Mon, 10/5/09, dadadharma @dslextreme.com <dadad...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

Carol Medlicott

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Oct 5, 2009, 4:23:47 PM10/5/09
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I research Shaker music, and mixolydian tunes are fairly common in
early Shaker hymnody, pre-1835. And the texts in both Midnight Cry and
Louisiana are found in early Shaker manuscripts- Midnight Cry from as
early 1806 and Louisiana from maybe circa 1810. In both cases, I have
evidence pointing to a Shaker origin for these texts. How they would
have migrated out of Shaker tradition - that's more difficult to say,
but nonetheless it happened.
The Louisiana text was a very popular Shaker hymn text, usually titled
"Little Morsel," and it appears in multiple Shaker manuscript hymnals
from the antebellum period. In all cases but a couple, it is attributed
to a very early Massachusetts Shaker woman named Eunice Wythe, who was a
well-known and prolific poet/songwriter. Wythe had an odd life as a
Shaker, and lived part of her life as a semi-hermit, for reasons I can't
go into here. "Little Morsel" is found in her private hymnal, kept
during this isolated period. Contrastingly, a couple of manuscript
sources attribute "Little Morsel" to the Shaker West, and one is
specific in its attribution to the Kentucky community at South Union,
which was near Bowling Green.
Midnight Cry wasn't quite as popular among the Shakers, but still was
pretty common. There is a manuscript reference to singing it in 1805/06
in Kentucky. And it's set down in early compilations of western
converts' hymns.
Of the Shaker tunes to these texts, there are about three variants
for each, mostly all ending on the sol. Some of them both begin and end
on the sol. For each song, I've also seen what I would call a minor
variant, but I'm not sure if it's Aeolian or Dorian.
The intersections between early shape-note hymnody and early Shaker
hymnody are intriguing and elusive. I have long thought it interesting
that two shared texts - Midnight Cry and Louisiana/Little Morsel - also
share the peculiar mixolydian mode, but in tunes that are otherwise
fairly different.
Sorry if that was too tangential to everyone's interests.

Carol Medlicott
Cincinnati, OH

Ian Quinn

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Oct 5, 2009, 6:06:58 PM10/5/09
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David and Wade, 

I don't know all the songs on David's list, but I can tell you that Oh Susanna, Camptown Races, Swanee River, Silent Night, Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye, Bach's Minuet in G, Hard Times Come Again No More, My Old Kentucky Home, and Red River Valley are not mixolydian tunes, whatever that dulcimer book might say.

Some of the tunes (like the first two on the list) don't have a seventh scale-degree at all, so it's impossible to say whether they're major or mixolydian.  The only difference between the two is that the major mode has a raised (sharped) seventh degree and the mixolydian mode has a lowered (flatted) seventh degree.  If the tune doesn't have it – many of our best-loved Sacred Harp tunes are based on pentatonic or hexatonic scales that lack a seventh degree – there's no way to decide.

In this same vein, it's worth mentioning that most of the tunes on Wade's original list, despite being furnished in The Sacred Harp with a harmonizations that treat the last note of the tenor line as scale-degree 5, can't really be said to have mixolydian melodies.  Here too, the melodies are pentatonic, and missing scale-degrees 3 and 7.  (There's a very occasional 3 "mi" in this type of song, but never a 7 of any kind.)  If such melodies were to be understood as ending on scale-degree 1 (as Wade is asking us to do, at least for speculative purposes), the tunes' incomplete scales would be compatible with not just the mixolydian mode, but also the major/ionian and dorian modes.  My own view is that songs like this are in an indigenously pentatonic mode that can't really be lumped together with mixolydian, despite the similarities that Wade points out, since the lowered seventh is the defining characteristic of the mixolydian mode.  

There are a few cases that aren't covered by the pentatonic explanation.

SHERBURNE (186).  I'm not sure I'd put fuging tunes in the same category as the others Wade enumerates.  It seems to be an article of faith that the tenor has the melody in Sacred Harp tunes, but when it comes to fuging tunes I doubt that this doctrine is terribly useful, since fugues aren't composed as harmonizations of a pre-existing melody in the tenor.  It makes more sense to say the melody jumps around from part to part, and – though this may be outright heretical – sometimes there isn't a melody at all.  Certainly in the case of Sherburne, I'd say that the treble has the lead at the end, since it's just chimed in with the fugue subject and it ends in a modally typical way, by encircling the tonic (scale-degree 1) and ending on it.  

FILLMORE (434).  Here it's pretty clear from the strongly triadic construction of the tenor line (that is, its focus on scale-degrees 1, 3, and 5) that Reese knew perfectly well that the tenor was ending on scale-degree 5 of a major mode, and not on scale-degree 1 of a mixolydian mode.  This tune is one of those (mostly from the post-Civil War period and freely composed rather than harmonizing a folk tune) I would say is an exception to the principle that the tenor always has the melody; this type of tune usually seems to be truly polyphonic (no one part having the lead).

WHITE (288) and THE MARCELLAS (405) are the only two examples Wade raises that I can't explain away, and I'd be very interested to know what folks think about them.  Interestingly, they're both written by the same composer, Edmund Dumas.  This may be a coincidence resulting from sampling bias, since Dumas is one of the better-represented composers in the book, but I'd be very curious to hear theories to the contrary.

Best,

Ian



-------------
Ian Quinn
Associate Professor
Department of Music and Program in Cognitive Science
Editor, Journal of Music Theory
Yale University


Chris Noren

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Oct 5, 2009, 5:59:36 PM10/5/09
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Well since we're having a fine old discussion on all matters Mixolydian, I
would like to present my long-held assertion that "Happy Birthday" is at its
heart a Mixolydian melody that is somewhat artlessly forced into "normal"
major mode right around where the person's name goes.

As written, the tune goes like this (S1 marks the start of Mixolydian scale
starting on Sol: Sol La Mi Fa Sol La Fa Sol):

S1 S1 L2 S1 F4 M3
S1 S1 L2 S1 S5 F4
S1 S1 S8 L6 F4 M3 L2
F7 F7 L6 F4 S5 F4

Contrast that to a hypothetically "rescued" Mixolydian version:

S1 S1 L2 S1 F4 M3
S1 S1 L2 S1 S5 F4
S1 S1 S8 L6 F4 L2 S1
F4 F4 L2 S1 L2 S1

I know, I know. I should keep my day job.

Chris Noren
Boxford, MA


John Garst

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Oct 5, 2009, 4:59:41 PM10/5/09
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Wade,

As far as I am aware, the writers of Rudiments in our tradition
recognized major and minor as the only possibilities. Since
Mixolydian tunes are not minor (they have a major third), they must
be major.

John
--
john garst ga...@chem.uga.edu

Will Fitzgerald

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Oct 5, 2009, 7:06:10 PM10/5/09
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It seems worth noting (for those who are unaware) that John was the
revisor of the Rudiments of the 1991 Denson book.
--
Will

Wade Kotter

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Oct 5, 2009, 9:58:57 PM10/5/09
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Interesting, but I think I'll stay out of the discussion on this one. :-)

Wade

--- On Mon, 10/5/09, Chris Noren <no...@neb.com> wrote:

> From: Chris Noren <no...@neb.com>
> Subject: [fasola-discussions] Re: Tenor lines that end on the dominant Sol in Major key songs

Wade Kotter

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Oct 5, 2009, 10:35:24 PM10/5/09
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Thanks for the interesting information, Carol. It seems that the more we look into these things the more interesting (and complicated) they get.

Wade

--- On Mon, 10/5/09, Carol Medlicott <medli...@nku.edu> wrote:

Wade Kotter

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Oct 5, 2009, 9:57:35 PM10/5/09
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John:

I never claimed that the various compilers of the Sacred Harp thought of these as anything other than major tunes. What I suggested as a possibility is that some of these tunes might have been originally been based on a scale starting on Sol of the major, which might also explain their distinctive sound. If this suggestion is incorrect, I'd love to hear an alternative explanation.

Wade

--- On Mon, 10/5/09, John Garst <ga...@chem.uga.edu> wrote:

Warren Steel

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Oct 5, 2009, 8:31:45 PM10/5/09
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At 03:59 PM 10/5/2009, John Garst wrote:
>As far as I am aware, the writers of Rudiments in our tradition
>recognized major and minor as the only possibilities. Since
>Mixolydian tunes are not minor (they have a major third), they must
>be major.

In the middle ages, melodic modes were invented so that
songleaders could appropriately connect psalm tones (melodic
formulas for reciting prose text) with antiphons (melodies
that preceded and followed the psalms). The essential
criterion for determining the mode was the *final note* of
the melody, D for modes 1 and 2, E for 3 and 4, F for 5 and
6, and G for 7 and 8. Note that modes 1 and 6 especially may
have either B natural or B flat, so they're not the same as
the modes recognized by modern scholars for jazz and folk
music. Wade's question seems based on the medieval monk's
obsession with the final note of the melody.

True, a melody like BOUND FOR CANAAN, ending on Sol,
*could* be considered as Mixolydian, *or* Dorian, since
the third degree is absent--it's a hexatonic melody. Bertrand
Bronson, in his "modal star" concept, deals with modes for 5-
and 6-note modes (instead of assuming what the missing ones
might be), but the Greek names are totally useless here.

But all of this pertains to single-line melodies. Sacred
Harp songs are not single-line melodies, but settings, regardless
of the final note or the number of notes in the melody. The rule
in Sacred Harp singing, as John well knows, is that the Key Note
is the last note of the bass part, not the tenor. If that note
is Faw, the piece is in the Sharp Key (nowadays called the Major
Mode); if it's Law, the piece is in the Flat Key (Minor Mode).
In other words, HEAVENLY ARMOR is in C major, not Mixolydian;
and HEBREW CHILDREN is in D Minor, not Phrygian.


--
Warren Steel mu...@olemiss.edu
Department of Music University of Mississippi
http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/

Wade Kotter

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Oct 5, 2009, 10:22:50 PM10/5/09
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Yes, and this brings up another question I have for John. On page 23 of the 1991 rudiments under section 17 of Chapter VIII (Harmony and Composition), you say that "Like chords, the notes of the tune itself wander through unstable pitches on the way to the final resting pitch, which is almost always the tonic. A tune that ends on another note sounds unfinished." Does this mean that you believe that the tenor lines in the Sacred Harp that end on Sol sound unfinished? I don't hear it that way, but it could just be that I have peculiar ears. :-)

Wade

--- On Mon, 10/5/09, Will Fitzgerald <will.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:

John Garst

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Oct 6, 2009, 9:51:04 AM10/6/09
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It's subjective. Once you are used to what might be called a
Mixolydian ending, it will sound appropriate, I believe, but I also
think that people who are steeped in conventional tunes of recent
times would find a melody ending on the dominant Sol to be unusual
and to be waiting for a proper resolution.

People who are appropriately acclimated, I believe, are likely to
accept as natural tunes that end on any degree of the scale.

J
--
john garst ga...@chem.uga.edu

John Garst

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Oct 6, 2009, 9:44:18 AM10/6/09
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I concur. - J
--
john garst ga...@chem.uga.edu

Mark Wingate

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Oct 6, 2009, 11:18:36 AM10/6/09
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An example of what ( I think ) Wade is getting at.
Forgive the abc notation, but I think you'll get it.
"C" is middle C, so the notes going up are CDEFGABcde. A "2" after a
note means its a half note, not a quarter

Tragic Romance: d2BG G2Bd c2GE C3E D2F#G A2Bc F#2F#E D3 --- Key of G
major, ending on fifth degree
Omie Wise: d2eC d2ed c2GE C3E DDEG A2cc A2GE D3 --- Key
of D, ending on tonic

The melodies are very similar in contour, and I think TR very well
could be descended from OW, but they are
accompanied/harmonized differently.

I believe Wade is asking us to entertain the possibility that some of
the tunes he mentions might have had a similar transformation.
As one who lies awake trying to imagine what those camp meeting tunes
may have sounded like, that is a delicious prospect!

Carol Medlicott's contribution is particularly relevant to this kind
of imagining, because the body of music preserved by the Shakers is
another
indication that some pretty tasty morsels got strained out of the soup
along the way.

Mark
www.kindlingstone.com

David Wright

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Oct 6, 2009, 12:52:39 PM10/6/09
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[Sorry if this appears twice....I sent it yesterday and it doesn't
seem to have gone through]

On Oct 4, 12:22 pm, Wade Kotter <wadekot...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Good afternoon!
>
> The vast majority of tenor lines in Major key songs from the 1991 Sacred Harp end on the tonic Fa. However, there are by my count 14 Major key songs, including some of my favorites and also some of the most often-sung songs (such as 146), in which the tenor line ends on the "dominant" Sol instead of the "tonic" Fa; several of them also begin on the "dominant" Sol. In numerical order. these are:
>
> THE CONVERTED THIEF (44)
> CUSSETA (73T)
> BOUND FOR CANAAN (82T)
> THE CHURCH'S DESOLATION (89)
> HEAVENLY ARMOR (129)
> HALLELUJAH (146)
[snip]

N.B. Several of these are clearly variants of each other, or members
of the same tune family (e.g., 44, 82t, 129, 146, arguably 73t as
well).

>
> I wonder if these tenor lines might have originally been based on melodic scales > using the some tones as the Major scale but beginning with Sol as the tonic
> (tonal center) instead of Fa.
[snip]

I have heard this idea before, and I do think it is possible that some
tunes which begin and end on "sol" in shape-note harmonizations
descended from tunes that we would now call (i.e., hear as)
"mixolydian."

The most convincing example, in my opinion, is the tune called
"Melody" in the Cooper Book (p. 286b), "Condescension" in other old
tunebook appearances:
http://www.shapenote.net/berkley/063.jpg
Although it too lacks what would be the third degree of the mixolydian
scale ("mi" in the major key harmonization), unlike the "Bound for
Canaan/Hallelujah" family it uses the scale degree *below* the
starting/ending note (what would be the lowered seventh of the
mixolydian scale, the fourth of the major scale) in the penultimate
measure, which gives additional weight to hearing the end note as the
tonic (rather than the dominant, as harmonized), at least to my ear.

I wonder (keeping in mind Ian Quinn's caution against trying to fit
pentatonic/"gapped" scale tunes into the foreign mixolydian/dorian/
etc. framework) if it is equally possible -- perhaps even more likely?
-- that some tunes which, in their original unaccompanied form, we
would now hear as "mixolydian" were harmonized in the book as *minor*
(without changing the tonic). There is a type of minor key (or
harmonized-as-minor-key) tunes which omit the third/"fa" scale degree
while often emphasizing the raised sixth and/or lowered seventh --
e.g., 74t THE ENQUIRER, 56b VILLULIA, 278b TRAVELING PILGRIM, 65 SWEET
PROSPECT (except a single occurrence of the "fa"). If these were being
harmonized in modern round-note style, they could just as well be
mixolydian as dorian (since there is no third scale degree to define
the distinction in modern terms). Since, in old-time music, the third
scale degree (when it even existed) seems to have been more flexible
in performance (variable within a single tune, subject to being
"bent", etc.) than in modern music influenced by classical/"better
music" assumptions, for all we know the mixolydian scale to their ears
would have been more closely allied to the dorian scale, rather than
the major/ionian as in our modern conception of the mixolydian.

SWEET PROSPECT is interesting because in the 1920's commercial
recording by the Allison Singers, the piano accompaniment uses E
*major* chords throughout the tune (not just at the cadences, as on
several of their other recordings of minor-key tunes, but wherever
they don't clash with the treble/bass harmonies) while still retaining
the lowered sevenths -- i.e., it has a strongly "mixolydian" feel.
Perhaps the major chords were a concession to popular tastes (or to
what the singers perceived to be such), but on the other hand perhaps
this harmonization is actually truer to how the singers "heard" the
tune. I think it is difficult if not impossible for us to know, now.

Legal advice on the internet is commonly prefaced with IANAL (I am not
a lawyer), so to conclude this post I will add IANAM (musicologist).

--David Wright (Seattle, WA)

Warren Steel

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Oct 6, 2009, 3:21:18 PM10/6/09
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At 11:52 AM 10/6/2009, David Wright wrote:
>The most convincing example, in my opinion, is the tune called
>"Melody" in the Cooper Book (p. 286b), "Condescension" in other old
>tunebook appearances:
>http://www.shapenote.net/berkley/063.jpg
>Although it too lacks what would be the third degree of the mixolydian
>scale ("mi" in the major key harmonization), unlike the "Bound for
>Canaan/Hallelujah" family it uses the scale degree *below* the
>starting/ending note (what would be the lowered seventh of the
>mixolydian scale, the fourth of the major scale) in the penultimate
>measure, which gives additional weight to hearing the end note as the
>tonic (rather than the dominant, as harmonized), at least to my ear.

Good tune! Which appears as ADORATION in Wyeth's Repository,
part second. Same melody, only the last phrase rises so that it
ends on the first degree, not the fifth. Go figure....

David Wright

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Oct 5, 2009, 10:58:50 PM10/5/09
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On Oct 4, 12:22 pm, Wade Kotter <wadekot...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Good afternoon!
>
> The vast majority of tenor lines in Major key songs from the 1991 Sacred Harp end on the tonic Fa. However, there are by my count 14 Major key songs, including some of my favorites and also some of the most often-sung songs (such as 146), in which the tenor line ends on the "dominant" Sol instead of the "tonic" Fa; several of them also begin on the "dominant" Sol. In numerical order. these are:
>
> THE CONVERTED THIEF (44)
> CUSSETA (73T)
> BOUND FOR CANAAN (82T)
> THE CHURCH'S DESOLATION (89)
> HEAVENLY ARMOR (129)
> HALLELUJAH (146)
[snip]

N.B. Several of these are clearly variants of each other, or members
of the same tune family (e.g., 44, 82t, 129, 146, arguably 73t as
well).

>
> I wonder if these tenor lines might have originally been based on melodic scales > using the some tones as the Major scale but beginning with Sol as the tonic
> (tonal center) instead of Fa.
[snip]

I have heard this idea before, and I do think it is possible that some
tunes which begin and end on "sol" in shape-note harmonizations
descended from tunes that we would now call (i.e., hear as)
"mixolydian."

The most convincing example, in my opinion, is the tune called
"Melody" in the Cooper Book (p. 286b), "Condescension" in other old
tunebook appearances:
http://www.shapenote.net/berkley/063.jpg
Although it too lacks what would be the third degree of the mixolydian
scale ("mi" in the major key harmonization), unlike the "Bound for
Canaan/Hallelujah" family it uses the scale degree *below* the
starting/ending note (what would be the lowered seventh of the
mixolydian scale, the fourth of the major scale) in the penultimate
measure, which gives additional weight to hearing the end note as the
tonic (rather than the dominant, as harmonized), at least to my ear.

Wade Kotter

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Oct 5, 2009, 11:38:12 PM10/5/09
to ga...@chem.uga.edu, Fasola Discussions, mu...@olemiss.edu
Warren:

Perhaps I am obsessed, but not with the note at the end of the melody. Instead, I'm fascinated by what I hear as a distinctive sound shared by several of the SH songs that end (and often begin) on Sol. And, from the responses that I've received both on and off-list, there are at least a few singers that share this fascination. Also, I want to emphasize that I don't disagree with your persuasive argument that these songs as they appear in the Sacred Harp are Major, not Mixolydian; I never intended to suggest otherwise, as I pointed out in my response to John. In hindsight, it probably would have been better for me to have left the word Mixolydian out of my original post, instead focusing on why some songs in which the tenor line ends on Sol seem to have a distinctive sound. With that in mind, I would really like to know if you, and any other people on the list, hear anything distinctive about the sound of at least some of these songs. If you do, would you
care to venture a explanation? Are those of us who are fascinated by what we perceive as a difference in sound really just grasping at straws?

Wade

--- On Mon, 10/5/09, Warren Steel <mu...@olemiss.edu> wrote:

Yeruvan Aroion

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Oct 6, 2009, 4:45:11 PM10/6/09
to mu...@olemiss.edu, Fasola Discussions
That's interesting. At church Sunday we sang Down to the River to Play. The way I know that song, both verse and chorus end on the 5-Sol, but the way my pastor and everyone else on the team seemed to know it, it ended on the 1-Fa. Is this a common thing with tunes like this?

Robert Vaughn

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Oct 6, 2009, 4:51:30 PM10/6/09
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--- On Tue, 10/6/09, David Wright <bright...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The most convincing example, in my opinion, is the tune
> called
> "Melody" in the Cooper Book (p. 286b),

Wade asked if any people on the list hear anything distinctive about the sound of at least some of these songs. I offer the disclaimer than I wouldn't know a mixolydian from a melodeon (and can't hear that well either). BUT I do hear and feel something different on _Melody_, 286b in the Cooper Book. I almost have to find a different frame of mind to sing the tenor.

--- Wade Kotter wrote:
> If you do, would you care to venture a explanation?

Due to the first part of the disclaimer above, no I wouldn't. It is subjective, not objective.

Sincerely,
Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com/
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way.
http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com/
For ask now of the days that are past...
http://oldredland.blogspot.com/
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.

John Garst

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Oct 7, 2009, 10:33:19 AM10/7/09
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At 3:45 PM -0500 10/6/09, Yeruvan Aroion wrote:
>That's interesting. At church Sunday we sang Down to the River to
>Play. The way I know that song, both verse and chorus end on the
>5-Sol, but the way my pastor and everyone else on the team seemed to
>know it, it ended on the 1-Fa. Is this a common thing with tunes
>like this?
>
>On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Warren Steel
><<mailto:mu...@olemiss.edu>mu...@olemiss.edu> wrote:
>
>
>At 11:52 AM 10/6/2009, David Wright wrote:
>>The most convincing example, in my opinion, is the tune called
>>"Melody" in the Cooper Book (p. 286b), "Condescension" in other old
>>tunebook appearances:
>><http://www.shapenote.net/berkley/063.jpg>http://www.shapenote.net/berkley/063.jpg
>>Although it too lacks what would be the third degree of the mixolydian
>>scale ("mi" in the major key harmonization), unlike the "Bound for
>>Canaan/Hallelujah" family it uses the scale degree *below* the
>>starting/ending note (what would be the lowered seventh of the
>>mixolydian scale, the fourth of the major scale) in the penultimate
>>measure, which gives additional weight to hearing the end note as the
>>tonic (rather than the dominant, as harmonized), at least to my ear.
>
> Good tune! Which appears as ADORATION in Wyeth's Repository,
>part second. Same melody, only the last phrase rises so that it
>ends on the first degree, not the fifth. Go figure....
>
>
>--
>Warren Steel <mailto:mu...@olemiss.edu>mu...@olemiss.edu
>Department of Music University of Mississippi
>
><http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/%7Emudws/>http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/
>
>
>
>
>

--
john garst ga...@chem.uga.edu

Dan Thoma

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Oct 7, 2009, 10:27:13 PM10/7/09
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In the spirit of self-promotion, I'd like to note that there is a true mixolydian four-shape tune in circulation. Karen Willard's new edition of An American Christmas Harp includes my song "Sarabavam," which we have been singing in the Northwest for the past couple of years. In this tune, the Sol truly is the tonic and it is harmonized as such. For An American Christmas Harp Karen has re-set it with the Fa as the tonic and with flatted Mi's. Anyone interested in seeing or hearing the song may contact me off-list, and I'll be happy to send you the music and/or a recording.

Dan Thoma
Portland, OR
  
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