which is best peakoil farm power: draft horses or vegoil?
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BobbyG
Nov 3, 2009, 5:15:29 PM11/3/09
to farmshed
I posted the below request for advice upon the "RunningOnEmpty2" list
and came up with the reply below.
Farmsheddists,
Which do you think will be the post peak of global oil production
motive power on the farm (and farm-to-market): draft horse power, or
perhaps vegoil grown on-farm powering diesel equipment? Perhaps a
hybrid of the two?
(This assumes rolling random fuel-supply outages, and that the
Homeland Security folks handing out fuel rationing cards will not be
as generous to the small-farm sector; also that only a small
percentage of farm equipment, trucks and other vehicles will have been
converted by T. Boone Pickens to run off his infinite/eternal supply
of natural gas).
Bobby G
http://www.biodiversecity.com
(now with more live Twitter sidebar feeds)
---------------------
To: running...@yahoogroups.com
Re: need advice on best small HP diesel tractor
Our "power-source" for our own CSA is draft horses. I know you were
probably
looking for a mechanized solution, but wanted to offer this solution.
We see the
horses as an integral part of our CSA; from doing the work to
contributing the
fertilizer. Our girls are trained to ride and pull a wagon as well so
if worse
comes to worse, they can be our means of transportation as well. We
have had
the horses 4 years and had limited horse experience prior to that.
A
Carbon, Alberta, CANADA
and came up with the reply below.
Farmsheddists,
Which do you think will be the post peak of global oil production
motive power on the farm (and farm-to-market): draft horse power, or
perhaps vegoil grown on-farm powering diesel equipment? Perhaps a
hybrid of the two?
(This assumes rolling random fuel-supply outages, and that the
Homeland Security folks handing out fuel rationing cards will not be
as generous to the small-farm sector; also that only a small
percentage of farm equipment, trucks and other vehicles will have been
converted by T. Boone Pickens to run off his infinite/eternal supply
of natural gas).
Bobby G
http://www.biodiversecity.com
(now with more live Twitter sidebar feeds)
---------------------
To: running...@yahoogroups.com
Re: need advice on best small HP diesel tractor
Our "power-source" for our own CSA is draft horses. I know you were
probably
looking for a mechanized solution, but wanted to offer this solution.
We see the
horses as an integral part of our CSA; from doing the work to
contributing the
fertilizer. Our girls are trained to ride and pull a wagon as well so
if worse
comes to worse, they can be our means of transportation as well. We
have had
the horses 4 years and had limited horse experience prior to that.
A
Carbon, Alberta, CANADA
Chris Malek
Nov 4, 2009, 9:33:38 AM11/4/09
to farmshed
Bobby,
I guess it depends on the personality of the farmer. My dad farmed
with both horses and machines. If you would ask him I think he would
pick machines over horses any day, but he is mechanically minded. If
you ask me, I would rather work with neither. I prefer people. My
inclination would be many small farms filling the landscape with
people who are using their skills to the max.
Chris Malek
On Nov 3, 4:15 pm, BobbyG <landc...@charter.net> wrote:
> I posted the below request for advice upon the "RunningOnEmpty2" list
> and came up with the reply below.
>
> Farmsheddists,
>
> Which do you think will be the post peak of global oil production
> motive power on the farm (and farm-to-market): draft horse power, or
> perhaps vegoil grown on-farm powering diesel equipment? Perhaps a
> hybrid of the two?
>
> (This assumes rolling random fuel-supply outages, and that the
> Homeland Security folks handing out fuel rationing cards will not be
> as generous to the small-farm sector; also that only a small
> percentage of farm equipment, trucks and other vehicles will have been
> converted by T. Boone Pickens to run off his infinite/eternal supply
> of natural gas).
>
> Bobby Ghttp://www.biodiversecity.com
I guess it depends on the personality of the farmer. My dad farmed
with both horses and machines. If you would ask him I think he would
pick machines over horses any day, but he is mechanically minded. If
you ask me, I would rather work with neither. I prefer people. My
inclination would be many small farms filling the landscape with
people who are using their skills to the max.
Chris Malek
On Nov 3, 4:15 pm, BobbyG <landc...@charter.net> wrote:
> I posted the below request for advice upon the "RunningOnEmpty2" list
> and came up with the reply below.
>
> Farmsheddists,
>
> Which do you think will be the post peak of global oil production
> motive power on the farm (and farm-to-market): draft horse power, or
> perhaps vegoil grown on-farm powering diesel equipment? Perhaps a
> hybrid of the two?
>
> (This assumes rolling random fuel-supply outages, and that the
> Homeland Security folks handing out fuel rationing cards will not be
> as generous to the small-farm sector; also that only a small
> percentage of farm equipment, trucks and other vehicles will have been
> converted by T. Boone Pickens to run off his infinite/eternal supply
> of natural gas).
>
> (now with more live Twitter sidebar feeds)
> ---------------------
>
> To: runningonemp...@yahoogroups.com
> ---------------------
>
Whitefeather
Nov 4, 2009, 10:45:07 AM11/4/09
to farmshed
I like this topic, I've made several hundred gallons of biofuel for
farming.
The idea of waste oil is attractive, but growing oil for just fuel is
when humanity has gone "crazy" in my book.
I can look up my records, but I think soybean is 20% oil by weight you
also get meal for animal feed. As far as oil per land space algae has
the most promise. In most cases the energy used to cultivate the oil
doesn't supply the oil used, hence the use of petroleum. Now lets say
you grew food grade soy oil, made potato chips with it fed animals
with the meal, then took the used oil to make biofuel, then you might
have some thing worth your time.
All in all I think if the price of fuel gets too high, at some point
farming will be granted the affordable use of it to keep the food
price down. And people won't be able to drive to get their latte'.
I do like horses too.
cheers
WF
farming.
The idea of waste oil is attractive, but growing oil for just fuel is
when humanity has gone "crazy" in my book.
I can look up my records, but I think soybean is 20% oil by weight you
also get meal for animal feed. As far as oil per land space algae has
the most promise. In most cases the energy used to cultivate the oil
doesn't supply the oil used, hence the use of petroleum. Now lets say
you grew food grade soy oil, made potato chips with it fed animals
with the meal, then took the used oil to make biofuel, then you might
have some thing worth your time.
All in all I think if the price of fuel gets too high, at some point
farming will be granted the affordable use of it to keep the food
price down. And people won't be able to drive to get their latte'.
I do like horses too.
cheers
WF
> I posted the below request for advice upon the "RunningOnEmpty2" list
> and came up with the reply below.
>
> Farmsheddists,
>
> Which do you think will be the post peak of global oil production
> motive power on the farm (and farm-to-market): draft horse power, or
> perhaps vegoil grown on-farm powering diesel equipment? Perhaps a
> hybrid of the two?
>
> (This assumes rolling random fuel-supply outages, and that the
> Homeland Security folks handing out fuel rationing cards will not be
> as generous to the small-farm sector; also that only a small
> percentage of farm equipment, trucks and other vehicles will have been
> converted by T. Boone Pickens to run off his infinite/eternal supply
> of natural gas).
>
> Bobby Ghttp://www.biodiversecity.com
> and came up with the reply below.
>
> Farmsheddists,
>
> Which do you think will be the post peak of global oil production
> motive power on the farm (and farm-to-market): draft horse power, or
> perhaps vegoil grown on-farm powering diesel equipment? Perhaps a
> hybrid of the two?
>
> (This assumes rolling random fuel-supply outages, and that the
> Homeland Security folks handing out fuel rationing cards will not be
> as generous to the small-farm sector; also that only a small
> percentage of farm equipment, trucks and other vehicles will have been
> converted by T. Boone Pickens to run off his infinite/eternal supply
> of natural gas).
>
> (now with more live Twitter sidebar feeds)
> ---------------------
>
> To: runningonemp...@yahoogroups.com
> ---------------------
>
drgarlic
Nov 5, 2009, 6:23:00 PM11/5/09
to farmshed
Howdy, all,
I agree with Tony that the idea of using up agricultural space to
create plant based oil for powering agriculture is silly. I tend to
come down on the side of people power, since our main focus is to feed
the people, anyway. Rumor has it that my mistrust of horsepower goes
beyound the fact that horses use up a lot of energy just existing, and
may indeed be based on my underlying fear that I am not as smart as a
horse. Now oxen............
On Nov 4, 9:45 am, Whitefeather <whitefeatherorgan...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > Carbon, Alberta, CANADA- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree with Tony that the idea of using up agricultural space to
create plant based oil for powering agriculture is silly. I tend to
come down on the side of people power, since our main focus is to feed
the people, anyway. Rumor has it that my mistrust of horsepower goes
beyound the fact that horses use up a lot of energy just existing, and
may indeed be based on my underlying fear that I am not as smart as a
horse. Now oxen............
On Nov 4, 9:45 am, Whitefeather <whitefeatherorgan...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
BobbyG
Nov 5, 2009, 8:16:11 PM11/5/09
to farmshed
Thanks for the discussion everyone. My original posting to the peak
oil list was to get a recommendation on the best small horsepower
diesel tractor (40 HP or less) in order to be a Real Farmer. I've
learned that real farmers control weeds mechanically, and yes, there's
a carbon footprint involved with that. But here's an example of why
real farmers use tractors:
I was digging up some potatoes by hand over at the rented field, when
Chad Malek stopped by to disc it up for next spring's planting. He
had a Massey 210-horsepower tractor, which does the work that would
take 1,200 humans (given the max. human sustained horsepower at 1/6
tops). He put down the two wings of the disc, while also pulling a
big drag behind to smooth the field. Whole 3.3 acres took him about
20 minutes, tops, maybe less time.
Anyway, my goal would be more modest, some sort of used, little Yanmar
or Kubota or other garden sized diesel tractor, not too expensive. So
if you have a good model to recommend, that would be great. Should be
light enough to be able to haul on a trailer without needing one of
those car-crusher sized Ford F-350 pickup trucks with the gooseneck
trailer hitch and biggest V-8 engines made on earth.
...oh...
By the way, did you see that article about the "Cars for Clunkers"
program? The biggest portion of that clunker money went to men who
were trading in old pickup trucks in order to buy nice new pickup
trucks, generally getting about 1 to 3 miles per gallon better mileage
than the trade-in "clunker." So much for that bright idea...
bobby g
http://www.biodiversecity.com
oil list was to get a recommendation on the best small horsepower
diesel tractor (40 HP or less) in order to be a Real Farmer. I've
learned that real farmers control weeds mechanically, and yes, there's
a carbon footprint involved with that. But here's an example of why
real farmers use tractors:
I was digging up some potatoes by hand over at the rented field, when
Chad Malek stopped by to disc it up for next spring's planting. He
had a Massey 210-horsepower tractor, which does the work that would
take 1,200 humans (given the max. human sustained horsepower at 1/6
tops). He put down the two wings of the disc, while also pulling a
big drag behind to smooth the field. Whole 3.3 acres took him about
20 minutes, tops, maybe less time.
Anyway, my goal would be more modest, some sort of used, little Yanmar
or Kubota or other garden sized diesel tractor, not too expensive. So
if you have a good model to recommend, that would be great. Should be
light enough to be able to haul on a trailer without needing one of
those car-crusher sized Ford F-350 pickup trucks with the gooseneck
trailer hitch and biggest V-8 engines made on earth.
...oh...
By the way, did you see that article about the "Cars for Clunkers"
program? The biggest portion of that clunker money went to men who
were trading in old pickup trucks in order to buy nice new pickup
trucks, generally getting about 1 to 3 miles per gallon better mileage
than the trade-in "clunker." So much for that bright idea...
bobby g
http://www.biodiversecity.com
BobbyG
Nov 5, 2009, 11:33:23 PM11/5/09
to farmshed
Hi there Whitefeather,
Point. That's one of the projects that's supposed to put UWSP on the
map...you may call it "waste wood" but it's wood that won't get
applied back on the soil if it's burnt up. And if you scour the forest
floor for every stick to put in the biofuel chipper, that's not waste
wood either. It's called food and habitat for other (non-human)
species.
Notable that the Defense Department offered some funding for that
biofuels work. They didn't used to, but now they do, take "peak oil"
seriously, as this literature review might suggest:
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/18056
(military types take energy issues seriously. It's why the Chinese
Navy does gaming where they end up wiping out the USA's Pacific Fleet,
that sort of thing.)
>And people won't be able to drive to get their latte'.
They might not be able to drive to get their weekly CSA shares either,
tho, that's the downside of this peaking thing...
> I do like horses too.
Yet and still, a six-horse team of big work horses does require a
certain amount of land just to maintain the life of the actual horses,
apart from the work those horses might be doing. It would be
interesting to see a breakdown of the Energy Return On Energy Invested
(EROEI, as they say on The Oil Drum) with respect to draft animals. I
don't think anyone's put that info. out there, have they?
b.g.
> The idea of waste oil is attractive, but growing oil for just fuel is
> when humanity has gone "crazy" in my book.
Hey, don't tell that to the biofuels researchers over at UW-Stevens
> when humanity has gone "crazy" in my book.
Point. That's one of the projects that's supposed to put UWSP on the
map...you may call it "waste wood" but it's wood that won't get
applied back on the soil if it's burnt up. And if you scour the forest
floor for every stick to put in the biofuel chipper, that's not waste
wood either. It's called food and habitat for other (non-human)
species.
Notable that the Defense Department offered some funding for that
biofuels work. They didn't used to, but now they do, take "peak oil"
seriously, as this literature review might suggest:
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/18056
(military types take energy issues seriously. It's why the Chinese
Navy does gaming where they end up wiping out the USA's Pacific Fleet,
that sort of thing.)
>And people won't be able to drive to get their latte'.
tho, that's the downside of this peaking thing...
> I do like horses too.
certain amount of land just to maintain the life of the actual horses,
apart from the work those horses might be doing. It would be
interesting to see a breakdown of the Energy Return On Energy Invested
(EROEI, as they say on The Oil Drum) with respect to draft animals. I
don't think anyone's put that info. out there, have they?
b.g.
Whitefeather
Nov 8, 2009, 10:43:35 PM11/8/09
to farmshed
Bobby, hope you got those potatoes out!
-I guess the wood chip is a "waste"? The tree will still leave a lot
of root mass. But only time will tell what is more important to
supply.
I'm glad that a sum of the gov. money gets funneled here to support
the community.
-Central drop off points help off set, any travel for CSA members.
-Don't forget that horses can reproduce. I think it gives them an one
up on the comparsion. Also to consider Mules or oxen take less water
and have broader range of diet.
-I have a 60 horsepower tractor I use to work 10+ acres and only use
45-55 gl of fuel. I think the key is to know when to use it and when
not to. Also its hard to find used equipment for "small" tractors.
Where I can look for stuff made since the 40's. If you are going to
get some thing small BCS might be a good choice.
=Peace
WF
-I guess the wood chip is a "waste"? The tree will still leave a lot
of root mass. But only time will tell what is more important to
supply.
I'm glad that a sum of the gov. money gets funneled here to support
the community.
-Central drop off points help off set, any travel for CSA members.
-Don't forget that horses can reproduce. I think it gives them an one
up on the comparsion. Also to consider Mules or oxen take less water
and have broader range of diet.
-I have a 60 horsepower tractor I use to work 10+ acres and only use
45-55 gl of fuel. I think the key is to know when to use it and when
not to. Also its hard to find used equipment for "small" tractors.
Where I can look for stuff made since the 40's. If you are going to
get some thing small BCS might be a good choice.
=Peace
WF
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