Ilya, I think it's important to ask questions to verify whether our assumptions about people based on their posts are true. Reacting to what someone says without knowing what they mean may breed and feed all kinds of emotional baggage. Is this what we want in a discussion on facilitation? For example: I think I should have asked questions instead of backing off when the language got unpleasant for me to verify what the other person had in mind when using what I considered bad language. Perhaps, it was the person's normal way of talking. I should have verified things before coming to any conclusions
I'm learning...
Nellie
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Illya Arnet-Clark <illya.ar...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Wow, I see that there is movement in the cogwheels again.
> I've been busy getting back to work, dealing with a bout of sickness, and > letting my brain steam over facilitation. And now, after reading especially > the posts about etiquette, niceties and backgrounds, I see a very revelevant > aspect of facilitating.
> It's been stated before that online communities no longer have physical > boundries. This means that there will likely be a variety of cultures coming > together. Since we may not be aware of differences, and be they ever so > subtle, etiquette becomes more than just niceties, but a way of engaging in > communication without the benefits of body language, the background of the > other person or other factors that contribute to deeper understanding.
> As a facilititator is it not part of our job to make communication easier > for the community as well? At the last(?) meeting I suggested that part of > our role of facilitator is also that of model. We can make facilitate the > process of communication - making it easier - by modelling what is expected.
> Alex, what you state here is an example of this:
> When we speak of language it's most interesting to note that the > pleasantries shared in one culture don't translate clearly into > another particularly across the web.
> As Nancy White told me once, my Aussie colloquialisms are often lost > and seen as some only to aggravate others....that my humour and > sardonism generated out of frustration nothing more than a veiled > tantrum translated into some form of less-than-prosaic prose.
> So how do we stay true to ourselves and let our personalities shine through > (as they inevitably will), while upholding a certain etiquette to facilitate > communication? I don't see a problem with this, but perhaps it's simply an > indicator of my personality, as perhaps it is for you as well, Nellie.
> I don't think this excludes a certain level of 'Compassion' and in some > cases bluntness.
> I am currently reading "Loving Kindness" by Sharon Salzberg and she tells
> of a story when once in certain city a drunken man tried to 'attack' them
> and how shaken and upset she was about the incident. After relating the
> incident to her meditation teacher, the latter told her: "Oh, Sharon, with
> all the lovingkindness in your hear, you should have taken your umbrella and
> hit that man over the head with it!" She continues, "sometimes we think
> that to develop an open heart, to be truly loving and compassionate, means
> that we need to be passive, to allow others to abuse us, to smile and let
> anyone do what they want with us. Yet this is not what is meant by
> compassion. Quite the contrary. Compassion is not at all weak. It is the
> strength that arises out of seeing the true nature of suffering in the
> world. Compassion allows us to bear witness to that suffering, whether it is
> in ourselves or others, without fear; it allows us to name injustice without
> hesitation, and to act strongly, with all the skill at our disposal."
> What powerful insight! I am also still trying to learn that.
> *To:* facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* ::{{FOC}}:: Re: Course blog updated: I'm falling behind Week 7
> Blog networks
> Greg,
> I find that a teacher may be a facilitator and moderator, but a facilitator
> and moderator do not act as teachers. I felt very uncomfortable posting the
> following sentence:
> However, I questioned myself as I added the sentence. The sentence was more
> of a question than a prescription. Is it wise to be more pleasant for others
> as it is for me? How do you feel about conducting criticism? Should there be
> ground rules on how to express ourselves in public sessions?
> I'm learning...
> Nellie
> On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 6:48 PM, Greg V. Barcelon, Jr., Ph.D. <
> gbarce...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Leigh,
> Indeed, "this IS a good learning experience." It is also an interesting
> "facilitating" path (for me, at least) you have taken. Would you share with
> us whether you were consciously facilitating when you wrote that post? Or
> were you simply participating as a member of the community?
> I was reflecting on our earlier discussion of the differences there may be
> in playing the roles of a 'facilitator,' a 'teacher,' and a 'moderator.' I
> suspect that there will be finer variations depending on which platform is
> being used, but when it comes to Discussion Groups/Forums, I think some
> differences can be found in the following:
> * *
> *Facilitator* – makes it easy (through appropriate set-up, summary,
> integration of threads or even challenging questions/comments) for members
> to continue sharing their ideas, feelings, experiences and the like.
> * *
> *Moderator* – monitors the way the members are sharing, exchanging and
> discussing issues – ready to step in when some members go out of bounds (in
> some cases may even exercise the task of deleting or editing posts that are
> not consistent with the goal of the group) and making appropriate comments
> to refocus the community towards its goals.
> * *
> *Teacher* – implants learning points, highlights learning opportunities,
> presents relevant information to encourage members to pick up their own
> insights about what is being discussed as well as the process that the group
> is using in discussing them.
> Yet, when I re-read your last post, I see all three being there. I also
> see all three components even in Nellie's single-line post which states: "I
> think it may be more pleasant to review some netiquette guidelines<http://hagar.up.ac.za/catts/learner/projects/flames/flamed.htm>when responding."
> I am now wondering whether we can truly differentiate facilitating from
> moderating and teaching. I quickly reviewed what the blogs had about this
> and I kinda like Kay Lewis<http://906703fockaylewis.blogspot.com/2008/08/weeks-4-5.html>'
> conclusion: "I suggest the skills of a teacher, moderator and facilitator
> need not be mutually exclusive but overlap, at varying degrees, depending on
> the level, purpose of the lesson, the power of the questions you pose, the
> information you need ..."
> In defense of Artie (or in defense of all that happens here), the
> controversy and drama being brought on through Artie's posts could be a
> catalyst for social bonding and a sense of community. I hope that we can all
> observe this as it unfolds - not change or restrain any of our postings and
> reactions, keep being who you are, but also observe. This IS a good learning
> experience in terms of facilitating online learning communities. Artie DOES
> bring valuable perspective and cultural difference to us, as does Alex and
> everyone else. Of course there is value in diversity - but observing and
> appreciating what that value REALLY is is the challenge I think...
> On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:31 PM, alexanderhayes <
> alexanderhayes1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for this post, Minhaaj. Now I know Artie is a female. I had no
> idea
> > since I never heard her speak. In fact, it would be nice to know a bit
> more
> > about you, Artie. For a start, what does Artie stand for? Is it your real
> > name?
> > Thank you.
> > Nellie
> > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Minhaaj ur Rehman <minh...@gmail.com
> >wrote:
> > > Seems i am the only one completing the assingments ? :)
> > > Nah artie has been really vibrant and i must appreciate her
> > > involvement. Leigh has really a lot to cope but he is still doing a
> > > great job :)
> > > On Sep 13, 7:49 am, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Leigh,
> > > > Thanks for the feedback. At least I know what to expect. OK. I'm
> going to
> > > > continue blogging all the way through this course no matter what.
> > > > > Woah there Artie! You are brewing a storm in a tea cup. Your blog
> is an
> > > > > exceptional read and I am sure many people are reading your blog
> and
> > > just
> > > > > need more time to get to know you through it. Did you know I have
> over
> > > 3 000
> > > > > readers of my blog per month and rarely get comments? My other
> blogs
> > > are
> > > > > written for family over seas, and though they read them they almost
> > > never
> > > > > comment. I have been blogging since early 2004 and have come to see
> > > that
> > > > > comments are not necessarily a measure of interaction - just like
> > > lurking is
> > > > > not an indication of being disengaged. Blogging is a process of
> > > developing
> > > > > an individual voice, confidence in yourself, a framework for
> personal
> > > > > reflection and thinking, and commenting on the world around you...
> if
> > > that
> > > > > results in a connection with other people then you enter into
> another
> > > > > dimension of blogging, but this takes time. People need time to get
> to
> > > know
> > > > > you and how you think and how you react. We are all still getting
> to
> > > know
> > > > > each other. You come across as unusual, your ideas are not
> standard,
> > > and
> > > > > your reactions are unpredictable.. this means it will take longer
> for
> > > people
> > > > > to get to know you. From were I sit, it looks like you just snapped
> at
> > > > > Nellie and everyone else here, but then you signed off with "love
> and
> > > > > kisses". From reading your blog and your posts to this email forum
> I
> > > can see
> > > > > that you have some very valuable perspectives to bring to our
> topics -
> > > > > things I had not considered before, but you must be patient. Yes
> there
> > > is
> > > > > individualism going on - I don't see this as a bad thing
> necessarily.
> > > Yes
> > > > > this is NOT a community - something I have been saying all along.
> This
> > > is a
> > > > > course, something for people to follow, there are learning
> objectives
> > > and
> > > > > forming a "community" for this course is not one of them. If small
> > > networks,
> > > > > personal and professional connections and even a sense of community
> > > emerges
> > > > > out of that, then great! The drama you bring to us will certainly
> help
> > > (or
> > > > > hurt) the potential for emotional bonding. But this is primarily a
> > > course
> > > > > for people to follow. What are they following? A sequence of topics
> I
> > > have
> > > > > designed, a range of readings relating to those topics, task
> oriented
> > > > > assignments, and assessment activities. All of this is designed to
> help
> > > > > people achieve certain outcomes, for some this is the certificate
> for
> > > this
I think these related discussions are quite interesting. It is very difficult to tolerate differences in worldview or educational perspective (among other things), and I think that courses that promote giving voice to alternative perspectives can in turn open learners to a world beyond their own comfort levels. This is one of the features that attracts me to Mezirow's Transformative Learning.
I do wonder, though, at what point does a discussion sink to a level where facts (though not their meanings) begin to get clouded. Perhaps I am musing myself into a new blog post about this . . .
From: facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com [mailto:facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Leigh Blackall Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 6:49 PM To: facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com Subject: ::{{FOC}}:: Re: Course blog updated: I'm falling behind Week 7 Blog networks
In defense of Artie (or in defense of all that happens here), the controversy and drama being brought on through Artie's posts could be a catalyst for social bonding and a sense of community. I hope that we can all observe this as it unfolds - not change or restrain any of our postings and reactions, keep being who you are, but also observe. This IS a good learning experience in terms of facilitating online learning communities. Artie DOES bring valuable perspective and cultural difference to us, as does Alex and everyone else. Of course there is value in diversity - but observing and appreciating what that value REALLY is is the challenge I think...
On Sep 13, 2:52 pm, "NELLIE DEUTSCH" <nellie.muller.deut...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for this post, Minhaaj. Now I know Artie is a female. I had no idea > since I never heard her speak. In fact, it would be nice to know a bit more > about you, Artie. For a start, what does Artie stand for? Is it your real > name?
> Thank you. > Nellie
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Minhaaj ur Rehman
> > Seems i am the only one completing the assingments ? :) > > Nah artie has been really vibrant and i must appreciate her > > involvement. Leigh has really a lot to cope but he is still doing a > > great job :) > > On Sep 13, 7:49 am, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Leigh,
> > > Thanks for the feedback. At least I know what to expect. OK. I'm going to > > > continue blogging all the way through this course no matter what.
> > > > Woah there Artie! You are brewing a storm in a tea cup. Your blog is an > > > > exceptional read and I am sure many people are reading your blog and > > just > > > > need more time to get to know you through it. Did you know I have over > > 3 000 > > > > readers of my blog per month and rarely get comments? My other blogs > > are > > > > written for family over seas, and though they read them they almost > > never > > > > comment. I have been blogging since early 2004 and have come to see > > that > > > > comments are not necessarily a measure of interaction - just like > > lurking is > > > > not an indication of being disengaged. Blogging is a process of > > developing > > > > an individual voice, confidence in yourself, a framework for personal > > > > reflection and thinking, and commenting on the world around you... if > > that > > > > results in a connection with other people then you enter into another > > > > dimension of blogging, but this takes time. People need time to get to > > know > > > > you and how you think and how you react. We are all still getting to > > know > > > > each other. You come across as unusual, your ideas are not standard, > > and > > > > your reactions are unpredictable.. this means it will take longer for > > people > > > > to get to know you. From were I sit, it looks like you just snapped at > > > > Nellie and everyone else here, but then you signed off with "love and > > > > kisses". From reading your blog and your posts to this email forum I > > can see > > > > that you have some very valuable perspectives to bring to our topics - > > > > things I had not considered before, but you must be patient. Yes there > > is > > > > individualism going on - I don't see this as a bad thing necessarily. > > Yes > > > > this is NOT a community - something I have been saying all along. This > > is a > > > > course, something for people to follow, there are learning objectives > > and > > > > forming a "community" for this course is not one of them. If small > > networks, > > > > personal and professional connections and even a sense of community > > emerges > > > > out of that, then great! The drama you bring to us will certainly help > > (or > > > > hurt) the potential for emotional bonding. But this is primarily a > > course > > > > for people to follow. What are they following? A sequence of topics I > > have > > > > designed, a range of readings relating to those topics, task oriented > > > > assignments, and assessment activities. All of this is designed to help > > > > people achieve certain outcomes, for some this is the certificate for > > this > > > > course. Developing a community in this context is NOT a primary > > objective. > > > > The primary objective is to be exposed to and consider a range of > > topics > > > > relating to the facilitation of online communities. By all means, > > continue > > > > your attempts to establish connections, networks and maybe even a sense > > of > > > > community - if this is what YOU need to help you get through this > > course. > > > > But keep in mind that NOT everyone needs that, and the pool of people > > you > > > > have around you here is relatively small in both size and time > > dimensions. > > > > Looking forward to your next post to your blog BTW Artie.. you really > > are a > > > > challenge :) in a nice way.
> > > >> Artie, > > > >> Thank you for the compliment, but I am new to this course. I just > > gave my > > > >> perspective on the value of stepping out of the box. Maybe learners > > can > > > >> become teachers and vice versa. Since this is a course on > > facilitation, > > > >> perhaps you would be willing to adopt the role of a facilitator.
> > > >> Warm wishes, > > > >> Nellie
> > > >> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:12 PM, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com > > >wrote:
> > > >>> That is not community. It's individualism and it's irresponsible. If > > you > > > >>> are in this course, you are responsible to do the work. One of the > > things we > > > >>> are supposed to do is to meet. I met with you on your terms but you > > have > > > >>> refused to meet with me on mine.
> > > >>> I actually don't think of you as being in this course. You did FOC07 > > and > > > >>> are hanging about for some reason. All of the FOC07 people are doing > > that > > > >>> and it misled me into believing that there were other actual > > participants in > > > >>> this course.
> > > >>> Maybe if FOC07 sees themselves as official members of the FOC > > community, > > > >>> then they need to either elect me into the membership with full > > rights and > > > >>> responsibilities, or tell me to beat it.
> > > >>>> Artie, > > > >>>> As a learner, you have valid expectations. However, you may not be > > > >>>> getting the kinds of responses you would expect from "teachers" > > right now > > > >>>> because they are practicing "out of the box" experiences as > > non-teachers. > > > >>>> Teachers are generally ready to cater to learners' every wish. Is > > that a > > > >>>> good thing? Does receiving step by step guidelines, handouts, and > > expected > > > >>>> goals facilitate the learning process? Perhaps allowing learners the > > freedom > > > >>>> of experimenting and learning via trial and error yields more > > effective > > > >>>> results in the long run. Perhaps, good facilitation is not being > > there. It > > > >>>> may feel good for learners to have teachers constantly at their side > > > >>>> advising every step of the way, but it might also interfere with the > > > >>>> learner's pace and learning style. The learning process may take > > longer, but > > > >>>> it may be more meaningful and lifelong.
> > > >>>>> Leigh, you are not the only one who is behind here. I still haven't > > > >>>>> written anything about forums and blogs, but I will be saying much > > about > > > >>>>> these throughout this course. It's OK to be behind but what > > concerns me is > > > >>>>> the many people I seemed to have wasted my energy upon here. I have > > quoted > > > >>>>> on blogs and not received posts on my blog, I attended a meeting > > that > > > >>>>> someone wanted me to attend yet when it came to pitching in on any > > of my > > > >>>>> projects or blog entries, that person is strangely absent.
> > > >>>>> People come to communities for interaction. To throw up a link to a > > > >>>>> world clock is one thing. It's another thing to interact around > > that as a > > > >>>>> practical dialogue and learn it.
> > > >>>>> I am not a teacher. I am a learner. When I write and ask questions > > it's > > > >>>>> because I want to know. I wish that someone else would buddy up > > with me in > > > >>>>> this quest.
Jeffrey,
I wonder whether we should stay at the level of facts or go beyond into
perhaps a deeper transformational kind of learning as suggested by Mezirow
(1978).
Mezirow, J. (1078). Perspective transformation. Adult Education Quarterly,
28(2), 100-110.
I'm learning...
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 7:00 PM, Jeffrey Keefer <jeff...@silenceandvoice.com
> wrote:
> I think these related discussions are quite interesting. It is very
> difficult to tolerate differences in worldview or educational perspective
> (among other things), and I think that courses that promote giving voice to
> alternative perspectives can in turn open learners to a world beyond their
> own comfort levels. This is one of the features that attracts me to
> Mezirow's Transformative Learning.
> I do wonder, though, at what point does a discussion sink to a level where
> facts (though not their meanings) begin to get clouded. Perhaps I am musing
> myself into a new blog post about this . . .
> *From:* facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Leigh
> Blackall
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 13, 2008 6:49 PM
> *To:* facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* ::{{FOC}}:: Re: Course blog updated: I'm falling behind Week 7
> Blog networks
> In defense of Artie (or in defense of all that happens here), the
> controversy and drama being brought on through Artie's posts could be a
> catalyst for social bonding and a sense of community. I hope that we can all
> observe this as it unfolds - not change or restrain any of our postings and
> reactions, keep being who you are, but also observe. This IS a good learning
> experience in terms of facilitating online learning communities. Artie DOES
> bring valuable perspective and cultural difference to us, as does Alex and
> everyone else. Of course there is value in diversity - but observing and
> appreciating what that value REALLY is is the challenge I think...
> On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:31 PM, alexanderhayes <
> alexanderhayes1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for this post, Minhaaj. Now I know Artie is a female. I had no
> idea
> > since I never heard her speak. In fact, it would be nice to know a bit
> more
> > about you, Artie. For a start, what does Artie stand for? Is it your real
> > name?
> > Thank you.
> > Nellie
> > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Minhaaj ur Rehman <minh...@gmail.com
> >wrote:
> > > Seems i am the only one completing the assingments ? :)
> > > Nah artie has been really vibrant and i must appreciate her
> > > involvement. Leigh has really a lot to cope but he is still doing a
> > > great job :)
> > > On Sep 13, 7:49 am, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Leigh,
> > > > Thanks for the feedback. At least I know what to expect. OK. I'm
> going to
> > > > continue blogging all the way through this course no matter what.
> > > > > Woah there Artie! You are brewing a storm in a tea cup. Your blog
> is an
> > > > > exceptional read and I am sure many people are reading your blog
> and
> > > just
> > > > > need more time to get to know you through it. Did you know I have
> over
> > > 3 000
> > > > > readers of my blog per month and rarely get comments? My other
> blogs
> > > are
> > > > > written for family over seas, and though they read them they almost
> > > never
> > > > > comment. I have been blogging since early 2004 and have come to see
> > > that
> > > > > comments are not necessarily a measure of interaction - just like
> > > lurking is
> > > > > not an indication of being disengaged. Blogging is a process of
> > > developing
> > > > > an individual voice, confidence in yourself, a framework for
> personal
> > > > > reflection and thinking, and commenting on the world around you...
> if
> > > that
> > > > > results in a connection with other people then you enter into
> another
> > > > > dimension of blogging, but this takes time. People need time to get
> to
> > > know
> > > > > you and how you think and how you react. We are all still getting
> to
> > > know
> > > > > each other. You come across as unusual, your ideas are not
> standard,
> > > and
> > > > > your reactions are unpredictable.. this means it will take longer
> for
> > > people
> > > > > to get to know you. From were I sit, it looks like you just snapped
> at
> > > > > Nellie and everyone else here, but then you signed off with "love
> and
> > > > > kisses". From reading your blog and your posts to this email forum
> I
> > > can see
> > > > > that you have some very valuable perspectives to bring to our
> topics -
> > > > > things I had not considered before, but you must be patient. Yes
> there
> > > is
> > > > > individualism going on - I don't see this as a bad thing
> necessarily.
> > > Yes
> > > > > this is NOT a community - something I have been saying all along.
> This
> > > is a
> > > > > course, something for people to follow, there are learning
> objectives
> > > and
> > > > > forming a "community" for this course is not one of them. If small
> > > networks,
> > > > > personal and professional connections and even a sense of community
> > > emerges
> > > > > out of that, then great! The drama you bring to us will certainly
> help
> > > (or
> > > > > hurt) the potential for emotional bonding. But this is primarily a
> > > course
> > > > > for people to follow. What are they following? A sequence of topics
> I
> > > have
> > > > > designed, a range of readings relating to those topics, task
> oriented
> > > > > assignments, and assessment activities. All of this is designed to
> help
> > > > > people achieve certain outcomes, for some this is the certificate
> for
> > > this
> > > > > course. Developing a community in this context is NOT a primary
> > > objective.
> > > > > The primary objective is to be exposed to and consider a range of
> > > topics
> > > > > relating to the facilitation of online communities. By all means,
> > > continue
> > > > > your attempts to establish connections, networks and maybe even a
> sense
> > > of
> > > > > community - if this is what YOU need to help you get through this
> > > course.
> > > > > But keep in mind that NOT everyone needs that, and the pool of
> people
> > > you
> > > > > have around you here is relatively small in both size and time
> > > dimensions.
> > > > > Looking forward to your next post to your blog BTW Artie.. you
> really
> > > are a
> > > > > challenge :) in a nice way.
> > > > >> Artie,
> > > > >> Thank you for the compliment, but I am new to this course. I just
> > > gave my
> > > > >> perspective on the value of stepping out of the box. Maybe
> learners
> > > can
> > > > >> become teachers and vice versa. Since this is a course on
> > > facilitation,
> > > > >> perhaps you would be willing to adopt the role of a facilitator.
> > > > >>> That is not community. It's individualism and it's irresponsible.
> If
> > > you
> > > > >>> are in this course, you are responsible to do the work. One of
> the
> > > things we
> > > > >>> are supposed to do is to meet. I met with you on your terms but
> you
> > > have
> > > > >>> refused to meet with me on mine.
> > > > >>> I actually don't think of you as being in this course. You did
> FOC07
> > > and
> > > > >>> are hanging about for some reason. All of the FOC07 people are
> doing
> > > that
> > > > >>> and it misled me into believing that there were other actual
> > > participants in
> > > > >>> this course.
> > > > >>> Maybe if FOC07 sees themselves as official members of the FOC
> > > community,
> > > > >>> then they need to either elect me into the membership with full
> > > rights and
> > > > >>> responsibilities, or tell me to beat it.
> > > > >>>> Artie,
> > > > >>>> As a learner, you have valid expectations. However, you may not
> be
> > > > >>>> getting the kinds of responses you would expect from "teachers"
> > > right now
> > > > >>>> because they are practicing "out of the box" experiences as
> > > non-teachers.
> > > > >>>> Teachers are generally ready to cater to learners' every wish.
> Is
> > > that a
> > > > >>>> good thing? Does receiving step by step guidelines, handouts,
> and
> > > expected
> > > > >>>> goals facilitate the learning process? Perhaps allowing learners
> the
> > > freedom
> > > > >>>> of experimenting and learning via trial and error yields more
> > > effective
> > > > >>>> results in the long run. Perhaps, good facilitation is not being
> > > there. It
> > > > >>>> may feel good for learners to have teachers constantly at their
> side
> > > > >>>> advising every step of the way, but it might also interfere with
> the
> > > > >>>> learner's pace and learning style. The learning process may take
> > > longer, but
> > > > >>>> it may be more meaningful and lifelong.
> Jeffery: I do wonder, though, at what point does a discussion sink to a
> level where facts (though not their meanings) begin to get clouded. Perhaps
> I am musing myself into a new blog post about this
I see it as a job of a facilitator that, if the online community values
facts and "high" order thinking in its discourse, where they see the absence
of facts or good referencing, that they prompt for it.
I have noticed a general lack of referencing, cross referencing each other,
or linking out to supporting information in both email posts and blog posts.
I can understand it, it takes a bit of work - especially when new to the
topic area, and although the topics have provided readings and references,
on the whole we have come back with opinion. This could be a time thing of
course.. people need time to chew on things and the expression of opinion
relating to prompting questions in the topics is a good way to do that.. but
in terms of studying a course goes, eventually it must be necessary to
either address the readings or find new references.
I'm on the hunt for a good reading relating to the idea of getting eduthink
out of facilitation for a bit... I thought Stephen Downes' video on Groups
and Networks was that reference, but clearly I need to find more.
On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Jeffrey Keefer <jeff...@silenceandvoice.com
> wrote:
> I think these related discussions are quite interesting. It is very
> difficult to tolerate differences in worldview or educational perspective
> (among other things), and I think that courses that promote giving voice to
> alternative perspectives can in turn open learners to a world beyond their
> own comfort levels. This is one of the features that attracts me to
> Mezirow's Transformative Learning.
> I do wonder, though, at what point does a discussion sink to a level where
> facts (though not their meanings) begin to get clouded. Perhaps I am musing
> myself into a new blog post about this . . .
> *From:* facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Leigh
> Blackall
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 13, 2008 6:49 PM
> *To:* facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* ::{{FOC}}:: Re: Course blog updated: I'm falling behind Week 7
> Blog networks
> In defense of Artie (or in defense of all that happens here), the
> controversy and drama being brought on through Artie's posts could be a
> catalyst for social bonding and a sense of community. I hope that we can all
> observe this as it unfolds - not change or restrain any of our postings and
> reactions, keep being who you are, but also observe. This IS a good learning
> experience in terms of facilitating online learning communities. Artie DOES
> bring valuable perspective and cultural difference to us, as does Alex and
> everyone else. Of course there is value in diversity - but observing and
> appreciating what that value REALLY is is the challenge I think...
> On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:31 PM, alexanderhayes <
> alexanderhayes1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for this post, Minhaaj. Now I know Artie is a female. I had no
> idea
> > since I never heard her speak. In fact, it would be nice to know a bit
> more
> > about you, Artie. For a start, what does Artie stand for? Is it your real
> > name?
> > Thank you.
> > Nellie
> > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Minhaaj ur Rehman <minh...@gmail.com
> >wrote:
> > > Seems i am the only one completing the assingments ? :)
> > > Nah artie has been really vibrant and i must appreciate her
> > > involvement. Leigh has really a lot to cope but he is still doing a
> > > great job :)
> > > On Sep 13, 7:49 am, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Leigh,
> > > > Thanks for the feedback. At least I know what to expect. OK. I'm
> going to
> > > > continue blogging all the way through this course no matter what.
> > > > > Woah there Artie! You are brewing a storm in a tea cup. Your blog
> is an
> > > > > exceptional read and I am sure many people are reading your blog
> and
> > > just
> > > > > need more time to get to know you through it. Did you know I have
> over
> > > 3 000
> > > > > readers of my blog per month and rarely get comments? My other
> blogs
> > > are
> > > > > written for family over seas, and though they read them they almost
> > > never
> > > > > comment. I have been blogging since early 2004 and have come to see
> > > that
> > > > > comments are not necessarily a measure of interaction - just like
> > > lurking is
> > > > > not an indication of being disengaged. Blogging is a process of
> > > developing
> > > > > an individual voice, confidence in yourself, a framework for
> personal
> > > > > reflection and thinking, and commenting on the world around you...
> if
> > > that
> > > > > results in a connection with other people then you enter into
> another
> > > > > dimension of blogging, but this takes time. People need time to get
> to
> > > know
> > > > > you and how you think and how you react. We are all still getting
> to
> > > know
> > > > > each other. You come across as unusual, your ideas are not
> standard,
> > > and
> > > > > your reactions are unpredictable.. this means it will take longer
> for
> > > people
> > > > > to get to know you. From were I sit, it looks like you just snapped
> at
> > > > > Nellie and everyone else here, but then you signed off with "love
> and
> > > > > kisses". From reading your blog and your posts to this email forum
> I
> > > can see
> > > > > that you have some very valuable perspectives to bring to our
> topics -
> > > > > things I had not considered before, but you must be patient. Yes
> there
> > > is
> > > > > individualism going on - I don't see this as a bad thing
> necessarily.
> > > Yes
> > > > > this is NOT a community - something I have been saying all along.
> This
> > > is a
> > > > > course, something for people to follow, there are learning
> objectives
> > > and
> > > > > forming a "community" for this course is not one of them. If small
> > > networks,
> > > > > personal and professional connections and even a sense of community
> > > emerges
> > > > > out of that, then great! The drama you bring to us will certainly
> help
> > > (or
> > > > > hurt) the potential for emotional bonding. But this is primarily a
> > > course
> > > > > for people to follow. What are they following? A sequence of topics
> I
> > > have
> > > > > designed, a range of readings relating to those topics, task
> oriented
> > > > > assignments, and assessment activities. All of this is designed to
> help
> > > > > people achieve certain outcomes, for some this is the certificate
> for
> > > this
> > > > > course. Developing a community in this context is NOT a primary
> > > objective.
> > > > > The primary objective is to be exposed to and consider a range of
> > > topics
> > > > > relating to the facilitation of online communities. By all means,
> > > continue
> > > > > your attempts to establish connections, networks and maybe even a
> sense
> > > of
> > > > > community - if this is what YOU need to help you get through this
> > > course.
> > > > > But keep in mind that NOT everyone needs that, and the pool of
> people
> > > you
> > > > > have around you here is relatively small in both size and time
> > > dimensions.
> > > > > Looking forward to your next post to your blog BTW Artie.. you
> really
> > > are a
> > > > > challenge :) in a nice way.
> > > > >> Artie,
> > > > >> Thank you for the compliment, but I am new to this course. I just
> > > gave my
> > > > >> perspective on the value of stepping out of the box. Maybe
> learners
> > > can
> > > > >> become teachers and vice versa. Since this is a course on
> > > facilitation,
> > > > >> perhaps you would be willing to adopt the role of a facilitator.
> > > > >>> That is not community. It's individualism and it's irresponsible.
> If
> > > you
> > > > >>> are in this course, you are responsible to do the work. One of
> the
> > > things we
> > > > >>> are supposed to do is to meet. I met with you on your terms but
> you
> > > have
> > > > >>> refused to meet with me on mine.
> > > > >>> I actually don't think of you as being in this course. You did
> FOC07
> > > and
> > > > >>> are hanging about for some reason. All of the FOC07 people are
> doing
> > > that
> > > > >>> and it misled me into believing that there were other actual
> > > participants in
> > > > >>> this course.
> > > > >>> Maybe if FOC07 sees themselves as official members of the FOC
> > > community,
> > > > >>> then they need to either elect me into the membership with full
> > > rights and
> > > > >>> responsibilities, or tell me to beat it.
nellie.muller.deut...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jeffrey,
> I wonder whether we should stay at the level of facts or go beyond into
> perhaps a deeper transformational kind of learning as suggested by Mezirow
> (1978).
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 7:00 PM, Jeffrey Keefer <
> jeff...@silenceandvoice.com> wrote:
>> I think these related discussions are quite interesting. It is very
>> difficult to tolerate differences in worldview or educational perspective
>> (among other things), and I think that courses that promote giving voice to
>> alternative perspectives can in turn open learners to a world beyond their
>> own comfort levels. This is one of the features that attracts me to
>> Mezirow's Transformative Learning.
>> I do wonder, though, at what point does a discussion sink to a level where
>> facts (though not their meanings) begin to get clouded. Perhaps I am musing
>> myself into a new blog post about this . . .
>> *From:* facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com [mailto:
>> facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Leigh
>> Blackall
>> *Sent:* Saturday, September 13, 2008 6:49 PM
>> *To:* facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com
>> *Subject:* ::{{FOC}}:: Re: Course blog updated: I'm falling behind Week 7
>> Blog networks
>> In defense of Artie (or in defense of all that happens here), the
>> controversy and drama being brought on through Artie's posts could be a
>> catalyst for social bonding and a sense of community. I hope that we can all
>> observe this as it unfolds - not change or restrain any of our postings and
>> reactions, keep being who you are, but also observe. This IS a good learning
>> experience in terms of facilitating online learning communities. Artie DOES
>> bring valuable perspective and cultural difference to us, as does Alex and
>> everyone else. Of course there is value in diversity - but observing and
>> appreciating what that value REALLY is is the challenge I think...
>> On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:31 PM, alexanderhayes <
>> alexanderhayes1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Thanks for this post, Minhaaj. Now I know Artie is a female. I had no
>> idea
>> > since I never heard her speak. In fact, it would be nice to know a bit
>> more
>> > about you, Artie. For a start, what does Artie stand for? Is it your
>> real
>> > name?
>> > Thank you.
>> > Nellie
>> > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Minhaaj ur Rehman <minh...@gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>> > > Seems i am the only one completing the assingments ? :)
>> > > Nah artie has been really vibrant and i must appreciate her
>> > > involvement. Leigh has really a lot to cope but he is still doing a
>> > > great job :)
>> > > On Sep 13, 7:49 am, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > Leigh,
>> > > > Thanks for the feedback. At least I know what to expect. OK. I'm
>> going to
>> > > > continue blogging all the way through this course no matter what.
>> > > > > Woah there Artie! You are brewing a storm in a tea cup. Your blog
>> is an
>> > > > > exceptional read and I am sure many people are reading your blog
>> and
>> > > just
>> > > > > need more time to get to know you through it. Did you know I have
>> over
>> > > 3 000
>> > > > > readers of my blog per month and rarely get comments? My other
>> blogs
>> > > are
>> > > > > written for family over seas, and though they read them they
>> almost
>> > > never
>> > > > > comment. I have been blogging since early 2004 and have come to
>> see
>> > > that
>> > > > > comments are not necessarily a measure of interaction - just like
>> > > lurking is
>> > > > > not an indication of being disengaged. Blogging is a process of
>> > > developing
>> > > > > an individual voice, confidence in yourself, a framework for
>> personal
>> > > > > reflection and thinking, and commenting on the world around you...
>> if
>> > > that
>> > > > > results in a connection with other people then you enter into
>> another
>> > > > > dimension of blogging, but this takes time. People need time to
>> get to
>> > > know
>> > > > > you and how you think and how you react. We are all still getting
>> to
>> > > know
>> > > > > each other. You come across as unusual, your ideas are not
>> standard,
>> > > and
>> > > > > your reactions are unpredictable.. this means it will take longer
>> for
>> > > people
>> > > > > to get to know you. From were I sit, it looks like you just
>> snapped at
>> > > > > Nellie and everyone else here, but then you signed off with "love
>> and
>> > > > > kisses". From reading your blog and your posts to this email forum
>> I
>> > > can see
>> > > > > that you have some very valuable perspectives to bring to our
>> topics -
>> > > > > things I had not considered before, but you must be patient. Yes
>> there
>> > > is
>> > > > > individualism going on - I don't see this as a bad thing
>> necessarily.
>> > > Yes
>> > > > > this is NOT a community - something I have been saying all along.
>> This
>> > > is a
>> > > > > course, something for people to follow, there are learning
>> objectives
>> > > and
>> > > > > forming a "community" for this course is not one of them. If small
>> > > networks,
>> > > > > personal and professional connections and even a sense of
>> community
>> > > emerges
>> > > > > out of that, then great! The drama you bring to us will certainly
>> help
>> > > (or
>> > > > > hurt) the potential for emotional bonding. But this is primarily a
>> > > course
>> > > > > for people to follow. What are they following? A sequence of
>> topics I
>> > > have
>> > > > > designed, a range of readings relating to those topics, task
>> oriented
>> > > > > assignments, and assessment activities. All of this is designed to
>> help
>> > > > > people achieve certain outcomes, for some this is the certificate
>> for
>> > > this
>> > > > > course. Developing a community in this context is NOT a primary
>> > > objective.
>> > > > > The primary objective is to be exposed to and consider a range of
>> > > topics
>> > > > > relating to the facilitation of online communities. By all means,
>> > > continue
>> > > > > your attempts to establish connections, networks and maybe even a
>> sense
>> > > of
>> > > > > community - if this is what YOU need to help you get through this
>> > > course.
>> > > > > But keep in mind that NOT everyone needs that, and the pool of
>> people
>> > > you
>> > > > > have around you here is relatively small in both size and time
>> > > dimensions.
>> > > > > Looking forward to your next post to your blog BTW Artie.. you
>> really
>> > > are a
>> > > > > challenge :) in a nice way.
>> > > > >> Artie,
>> > > > >> Thank you for the compliment, but I am new to this course. I
>> just
>> > > gave my
>> > > > >> perspective on the value of stepping out of the box. Maybe
>> learners
>> > > can
>> > > > >> become teachers and vice versa. Since this is a course on
>> > > facilitation,
>> > > > >> perhaps you would be willing to adopt the role of a facilitator.
>> > > > >>> That is not community. It's individualism and it's
>> irresponsible. If
>> > > you
>> > > > >>> are in this course, you are responsible to do the work. One of
>> the
>> > > things we
>> > > > >>> are supposed to do is to meet. I met with you on your terms but
>> you
>> > > have
>> > > > >>> refused to meet with me on mine.
>> > > > >>> I actually don't think of you as being in this course. You did
>> FOC07
>> > > and
>> > > > >>> are hanging about for some reason. All of the FOC07 people are
>> doing
>> > > that
>> > > > >>> and it misled me into believing that there were other actual
>> > > participants in
>> > > > >>> this course.
>> > > > >>> Maybe if FOC07 sees themselves as official members of the FOC
>> > > community,
>> > > > >>> then they need to either elect me into the membership with full
>> > > rights and
>> > > > >>> responsibilities, or tell me to beat it.
>> > > > >>> love an kisses
>> > > > >>> artie
>> > > > >>> On 12/09/2008, NELLIE DEUTSCH <nellie.muller.deut...@gmail.com
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > >>>> Artie,
>> > > > >>>> As a learner, you have valid expectations. However, you may not
>> be
>> > > > >>>> getting the kinds of responses you would expect from "teachers"
>> > > right now
>> > > > >>>> because they are practicing "out of the box" experiences as
>> > > non-teachers.
>> > > > >>>> Teachers are generally ready to cater to learners' every wish.
>> Is
>> > > that a
>> > > > >>>> good thing? Does receiving step by step guidelines, handouts,
>> and
>> > > expected
>> > > > >>>> goals facilitate the learning process? Perhaps allowing
>> learners the
> Nellie, could you add a bit more on what you see in Mezirow that should
> entice us to read?
> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:32 PM, NELLIE DEUTSCH <
> nellie.muller.deut...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Jeffrey,
>> I wonder whether we should stay at the level of facts or go beyond into
>> perhaps a deeper transformational kind of learning as suggested by Mezirow
>> (1978).
>> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 7:00 PM, Jeffrey Keefer <
>> jeff...@silenceandvoice.com> wrote:
>>> I think these related discussions are quite interesting. It is very
>>> difficult to tolerate differences in worldview or educational perspective
>>> (among other things), and I think that courses that promote giving voice to
>>> alternative perspectives can in turn open learners to a world beyond their
>>> own comfort levels. This is one of the features that attracts me to
>>> Mezirow's Transformative Learning.
>>> I do wonder, though, at what point does a discussion sink to a level
>>> where facts (though not their meanings) begin to get clouded. Perhaps I am
>>> musing myself into a new blog post about this . . .
>>> *From:* facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com [mailto:
>>> facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Leigh
>>> Blackall
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, September 13, 2008 6:49 PM
>>> *To:* facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com
>>> *Subject:* ::{{FOC}}:: Re: Course blog updated: I'm falling behind Week
>>> 7 Blog networks
>>> In defense of Artie (or in defense of all that happens here), the
>>> controversy and drama being brought on through Artie's posts could be a
>>> catalyst for social bonding and a sense of community. I hope that we can all
>>> observe this as it unfolds - not change or restrain any of our postings and
>>> reactions, keep being who you are, but also observe. This IS a good learning
>>> experience in terms of facilitating online learning communities. Artie DOES
>>> bring valuable perspective and cultural difference to us, as does Alex and
>>> everyone else. Of course there is value in diversity - but observing and
>>> appreciating what that value REALLY is is the challenge I think...
>>> On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:31 PM, alexanderhayes <
>>> alexanderhayes1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Thanks for this post, Minhaaj. Now I know Artie is a female. I had no
>>> idea
>>> > since I never heard her speak. In fact, it would be nice to know a bit
>>> more
>>> > about you, Artie. For a start, what does Artie stand for? Is it your
>>> real
>>> > name?
>>> > Thank you.
>>> > Nellie
>>> > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Minhaaj ur Rehman <minh...@gmail.com
>>> >wrote:
>>> > > Seems i am the only one completing the assingments ? :)
>>> > > Nah artie has been really vibrant and i must appreciate her
>>> > > involvement. Leigh has really a lot to cope but he is still doing a
>>> > > great job :)
>>> > > On Sep 13, 7:49 am, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > > Leigh,
>>> > > > Thanks for the feedback. At least I know what to expect. OK. I'm
>>> going to
>>> > > > continue blogging all the way through this course no matter what.
>>> > > > > Woah there Artie! You are brewing a storm in a tea cup. Your blog
>>> is an
>>> > > > > exceptional read and I am sure many people are reading your blog
>>> and
>>> > > just
>>> > > > > need more time to get to know you through it. Did you know I have
>>> over
>>> > > 3 000
>>> > > > > readers of my blog per month and rarely get comments? My other
>>> blogs
>>> > > are
>>> > > > > written for family over seas, and though they read them they
>>> almost
>>> > > never
>>> > > > > comment. I have been blogging since early 2004 and have come to
>>> see
>>> > > that
>>> > > > > comments are not necessarily a measure of interaction - just like
>>> > > lurking is
>>> > > > > not an indication of being disengaged. Blogging is a process of
>>> > > developing
>>> > > > > an individual voice, confidence in yourself, a framework for
>>> personal
>>> > > > > reflection and thinking, and commenting on the world around
>>> you... if
>>> > > that
>>> > > > > results in a connection with other people then you enter into
>>> another
>>> > > > > dimension of blogging, but this takes time. People need time to
>>> get to
>>> > > know
>>> > > > > you and how you think and how you react. We are all still getting
>>> to
>>> > > know
>>> > > > > each other. You come across as unusual, your ideas are not
>>> standard,
>>> > > and
>>> > > > > your reactions are unpredictable.. this means it will take longer
>>> for
>>> > > people
>>> > > > > to get to know you. From were I sit, it looks like you just
>>> snapped at
>>> > > > > Nellie and everyone else here, but then you signed off with "love
>>> and
>>> > > > > kisses". From reading your blog and your posts to this email
>>> forum I
>>> > > can see
>>> > > > > that you have some very valuable perspectives to bring to our
>>> topics -
>>> > > > > things I had not considered before, but you must be patient. Yes
>>> there
>>> > > is
>>> > > > > individualism going on - I don't see this as a bad thing
>>> necessarily.
>>> > > Yes
>>> > > > > this is NOT a community - something I have been saying all along.
>>> This
>>> > > is a
>>> > > > > course, something for people to follow, there are learning
>>> objectives
>>> > > and
>>> > > > > forming a "community" for this course is not one of them. If
>>> small
>>> > > networks,
>>> > > > > personal and professional connections and even a sense of
>>> community
>>> > > emerges
>>> > > > > out of that, then great! The drama you bring to us will certainly
>>> help
>>> > > (or
>>> > > > > hurt) the potential for emotional bonding. But this is primarily
>>> a
>>> > > course
>>> > > > > for people to follow. What are they following? A sequence of
>>> topics I
>>> > > have
>>> > > > > designed, a range of readings relating to those topics, task
>>> oriented
>>> > > > > assignments, and assessment activities. All of this is designed
>>> to help
>>> > > > > people achieve certain outcomes, for some this is the certificate
>>> for
>>> > > this
>>> > > > > course. Developing a community in this context is NOT a primary
>>> > > objective.
>>> > > > > The primary objective is to be exposed to and consider a range of
>>> > > topics
>>> > > > > relating to the facilitation of online communities. By all means,
>>> > > continue
>>> > > > > your attempts to establish connections, networks and maybe even a
>>> sense
>>> > > of
>>> > > > > community - if this is what YOU need to help you get through this
>>> > > course.
>>> > > > > But keep in mind that NOT everyone needs that, and the pool of
>>> people
>>> > > you
>>> > > > > have around you here is relatively small in both size and time
>>> > > dimensions.
>>> > > > > Looking forward to your next post to your blog BTW Artie.. you
>>> really
>>> > > are a
>>> > > > > challenge :) in a nice way.
>>> > > > >> Artie,
>>> > > > >> Thank you for the compliment, but I am new to this course. I
>>> just
>>> > > gave my
>>> > > > >> perspective on the value of stepping out of the box. Maybe
>>> learners
>>> > > can
>>> > > > >> become teachers and vice versa. Since this is a course on
>>> > > facilitation,
>>> > > > >> perhaps you would be willing to adopt the role of a facilitator.
>>> > > > >>> That is not community. It's individualism and it's
>>> irresponsible. If
>>> > > you
>>> > > > >>> are in this course, you are responsible to do the work. One of
>>> the
>>> > > things we
>>> > > > >>> are supposed to do is to meet. I met with you on your terms but
>>> you
>>> > > have
>>> > > > >>> refused to meet with me on mine.
>>> > > > >>> I actually don't think of you as being in this course. You did
>>> FOC07
>>> > > and
>>> > > > >>> are hanging about for some reason. All of the FOC07 people are
>>> doing
>>> > > that
>>> > > > >>> and it misled me into believing that there were other actual
>>> > > participants in
>>> > > > >>> this course.
>>> > > > >>> Maybe if FOC07 sees themselves as official members of the FOC
>>> > > community,
>>> > > > >>> then they need to either elect me into the membership with full
>>> > > rights and
>>> > > > >>> responsibilities, or tell me to beat it.
As a qualitative methodology, we have to go into a deeper level. That's when and where we start experiencing and making different meanings differently.
From: facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com [mailto:facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of NELLIE DEUTSCH Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 11:32 PM To: facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com Subject: ::{{FOC}}:: Re: Course blog updated: I'm falling behind Week 7 Blog networks
Jeffrey, I wonder whether we should stay at the level of facts or go beyond into perhaps a deeper transformational kind of learning as suggested by Mezirow (1978).
Mezirow, J. (1078). Perspective transformation. Adult Education Quarterly, 28(2), 100-110.
I think these related discussions are quite interesting. It is very difficult to tolerate differences in worldview or educational perspective (among other things), and I think that courses that promote giving voice to alternative perspectives can in turn open learners to a world beyond their own comfort levels. This is one of the features that attracts me to Mezirow's Transformative Learning.
I do wonder, though, at what point does a discussion sink to a level where facts (though not their meanings) begin to get clouded. Perhaps I am musing myself into a new blog post about this . . .
From: facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com [mailto:facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Leigh Blackall Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 6:49 PM
To: facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com Subject: ::{{FOC}}:: Re: Course blog updated: I'm falling behind Week 7 Blog networks
In defense of Artie (or in defense of all that happens here), the controversy and drama being brought on through Artie's posts could be a catalyst for social bonding and a sense of community. I hope that we can all observe this as it unfolds - not change or restrain any of our postings and reactions, keep being who you are, but also observe. This IS a good learning experience in terms of facilitating online learning communities. Artie DOES bring valuable perspective and cultural difference to us, as does Alex and everyone else. Of course there is value in diversity - but observing and appreciating what that value REALLY is is the challenge I think...
On Sep 13, 2:52 pm, "NELLIE DEUTSCH" <nellie.muller.deut...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for this post, Minhaaj. Now I know Artie is a female. I had no idea > since I never heard her speak. In fact, it would be nice to know a bit more > about you, Artie. For a start, what does Artie stand for? Is it your real > name?
> Thank you. > Nellie
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Minhaaj ur Rehman
> > Seems i am the only one completing the assingments ? :) > > Nah artie has been really vibrant and i must appreciate her > > involvement. Leigh has really a lot to cope but he is still doing a > > great job :) > > On Sep 13, 7:49 am, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Leigh,
> > > Thanks for the feedback. At least I know what to expect. OK. I'm going to > > > continue blogging all the way through this course no matter what.
> > > > Woah there Artie! You are brewing a storm in a tea cup. Your blog is an > > > > exceptional read and I am sure many people are reading your blog and > > just > > > > need more time to get to know you through it. Did you know I have over > > 3 000 > > > > readers of my blog per month and rarely get comments? My other blogs > > are > > > > written for family over seas, and though they read them they almost > > never > > > > comment. I have been blogging since early 2004 and have come to see > > that > > > > comments are not necessarily a measure of interaction - just like > > lurking is > > > > not an indication of being disengaged. Blogging is a process of > > developing > > > > an individual voice, confidence in yourself, a framework for personal > > > > reflection and thinking, and commenting on the world around you... if > > that > > > > results in a connection with other people then you enter into another > > > > dimension of blogging, but this takes time. People need time to get to > > know > > > > you and how you think and how you react. We are all still getting to > > know > > > > each other. You come across as unusual, your ideas are not standard, > > and > > > > your reactions are unpredictable.. this means it will take longer for > > people > > > > to get to know you. From were I sit, it looks like you just snapped at > > > > Nellie and everyone else here, but then you signed off with "love and > > > > kisses". From reading your blog and your posts to this email forum I > > can see > > > > that you have some very valuable perspectives to bring to our topics - > > > > things I had not considered before, but you must be patient. Yes there > > is > > > > individualism going on - I don't see this as a bad thing necessarily. > > Yes > > > > this is NOT a community - something I have been saying all along. This > > is a > > > > course, something for people to follow, there are learning objectives > > and > > > > forming a "community" for this course is not one of them. If small > > networks, > > > > personal and professional connections and even a sense of community > > emerges > > > > out of that, then great! The drama you bring to us will certainly help > > (or > > > > hurt) the potential for emotional bonding. But this is primarily a > > course > > > > for people to follow. What are they following? A sequence of topics I > > have > > > > designed, a range of readings relating to those topics, task oriented > > > > assignments, and assessment activities. All of this is designed to help > > > > people achieve certain outcomes, for some this is the certificate for > > this > > > > course. Developing a community in this context is NOT a primary > > objective. > > > > The primary objective is to be exposed to and consider a range of > > topics > > > > relating to the facilitation of online communities. By all means, > > continue > > > > your attempts to establish connections, networks and maybe even a sense > > of > > > > community - if this is what YOU need to help you get through this > > course. > > > > But keep in mind that NOT everyone needs that, and the pool of people > > you > > > > have around you here is relatively small in both size and time > > dimensions. > > > > Looking forward to your next post to your blog BTW Artie.. you really > > are a > > > > challenge :) in a nice way.
> > > >> Artie, > > > >> Thank you for the compliment, but I am new to this course. I just > > gave my > > > >> perspective on the value of stepping out of the box. Maybe learners > > can > > > >> become teachers and vice versa. Since this is a course on > > facilitation, > > > >> perhaps you would be willing to adopt the role of a facilitator.
> > > >> Warm wishes, > > > >> Nellie
> > > >> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:12 PM, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com > > >wrote:
> > > >>> That is not community. It's individualism and it's irresponsible. If > > you > > > >>> are in this course, you are responsible to do the work. One of the > > things we > > > >>> are supposed to do is to meet. I met with you on your terms but you > > have > > > >>> refused to meet with me on mine.
> > > >>> I actually don't think of you as being in this course. You did FOC07 > > and > > > >>> are hanging about for some reason. All of the FOC07 people are doing > > that > > > >>> and it misled me into believing that there were other actual > > participants in > > > >>> this course.
> > > >>> Maybe if FOC07 sees themselves as official members of the FOC > > community, > > > >>> then they need to either elect me into the membership with full > > rights and > > > >>> responsibilities, or tell me to beat it.
> > > >>>> Artie, > > > >>>> As a learner, you have valid expectations. However, you may not be > > > >>>> getting the kinds of responses you would expect from "teachers" > > right now > > > >>>> because they are practicing "out of the box" experiences as > > non-teachers. > > > >>>> Teachers are generally ready to cater to learners' every wish. Is > > that a > > > >>>> good thing? Does receiving step by step guidelines, handouts, and > > expected > > > >>>> goals facilitate the learning process? Perhaps allowing learners the > > freedom > > > >>>> of experimenting and learning via trial and error yields more > > effective > > > >>>> results in the long run. Perhaps, good facilitation is not being > > there. It > > > >>>> may feel good for learners to have teachers constantly at their side > > > >>>> advising every step of the way, but it might also interfere with the > > > >>>> learner's pace and learning style. The learning process
From: facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com [mailto:facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Leigh Blackall Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 11:34 PM To: facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com Subject: ::{{FOC}}:: Re: Course blog updated: I'm falling behind Week 7 Blog networks
:) There we go!
Nellie, could you add a bit more on what you see in Mezirow that should entice us to read?
Jeffrey, I wonder whether we should stay at the level of facts or go beyond into perhaps a deeper transformational kind of learning as suggested by Mezirow (1978).
Mezirow, J. (1078). Perspective transformation. Adult Education Quarterly, 28(2), 100-110.
I think these related discussions are quite interesting. It is very difficult to tolerate differences in worldview or educational perspective (among other things), and I think that courses that promote giving voice to alternative perspectives can in turn open learners to a world beyond their own comfort levels. This is one of the features that attracts me to Mezirow's Transformative Learning.
I do wonder, though, at what point does a discussion sink to a level where facts (though not their meanings) begin to get clouded. Perhaps I am musing myself into a new blog post about this . . .
From: facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com [mailto:facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Leigh Blackall Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 6:49 PM
To: facilitating-online-communities@googlegroups.com Subject: ::{{FOC}}:: Re: Course blog updated: I'm falling behind Week 7 Blog networks
In defense of Artie (or in defense of all that happens here), the controversy and drama being brought on through Artie's posts could be a catalyst for social bonding and a sense of community. I hope that we can all observe this as it unfolds - not change or restrain any of our postings and reactions, keep being who you are, but also observe. This IS a good learning experience in terms of facilitating online learning communities. Artie DOES bring valuable perspective and cultural difference to us, as does Alex and everyone else. Of course there is value in diversity - but observing and appreciating what that value REALLY is is the challenge I think...
On Sep 13, 2:52 pm, "NELLIE DEUTSCH" <nellie.muller.deut...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for this post, Minhaaj. Now I know Artie is a female. I had no idea > since I never heard her speak. In fact, it would be nice to know a bit more > about you, Artie. For a start, what does Artie stand for? Is it your real > name?
> Thank you. > Nellie
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Minhaaj ur Rehman
> > Seems i am the only one completing the assingments ? :) > > Nah artie has been really vibrant and i must appreciate her > > involvement. Leigh has really a lot to cope but he is still doing a > > great job :) > > On Sep 13, 7:49 am, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Leigh,
> > > Thanks for the feedback. At least I know what to expect. OK. I'm going to > > > continue blogging all the way through this course no matter what.
> > > > Woah there Artie! You are brewing a storm in a tea cup. Your blog is an > > > > exceptional read and I am sure many people are reading your blog and > > just > > > > need more time to get to know you through it. Did you know I have over > > 3 000 > > > > readers of my blog per month and rarely get comments? My other blogs > > are > > > > written for family over seas, and though they read them they almost > > never > > > > comment. I have been blogging since early 2004 and have come to see > > that > > > > comments are not necessarily a measure of interaction - just like > > lurking is > > > > not an indication of being disengaged. Blogging is a process of > > developing > > > > an individual voice, confidence in yourself, a framework for personal > > > > reflection and thinking, and commenting on the world around you... if > > that > > > > results in a connection with other people then you enter into another > > > > dimension of blogging, but this takes time. People need time to get to > > know > > > > you and how you think and how you react. We are all still getting to > > know > > > > each other. You come across as unusual, your ideas are not standard, > > and > > > > your reactions are unpredictable.. this means it will take longer for > > people > > > > to get to know you. From were I sit, it looks like you just snapped at > > > > Nellie and everyone else here, but then you signed off with "love and > > > > kisses". From reading your blog and your posts to this email forum I > > can see > > > > that you have some very valuable perspectives to bring to our topics - > > > > things I had not considered before, but you must be patient. Yes there > > is > > > > individualism going on - I don't see this as a bad thing necessarily. > > Yes > > > > this is NOT a community - something I have been saying all along. This > > is a > > > > course, something for people to follow, there are learning objectives > > and > > > > forming a "community" for this course is not one of them. If small > > networks, > > > > personal and professional connections and even a sense of community > > emerges > > > > out of that, then great! The drama you bring to us will certainly help > > (or > > > > hurt) the potential for emotional bonding. But this is primarily a > > course > > > > for people to follow. What are they following? A sequence of topics I > > have > > > > designed, a range of readings relating to those topics, task oriented > > > > assignments, and assessment activities. All of this is designed to help > > > > people achieve certain outcomes, for some this is the certificate for > > this > > > > course. Developing a community in this context is NOT a primary > > objective. > > > > The primary objective is to be exposed to and consider a range of > > topics > > > > relating to the facilitation of online communities. By all means, > > continue > > > > your attempts to establish connections, networks and maybe even a sense > > of > > > > community - if this is what YOU need to help you get through this > > course. > > > > But keep in mind that NOT everyone needs that, and the pool of people > > you > > > > have around you here is relatively small in both size and time > > dimensions. > > > > Looking forward to your next post to your blog BTW Artie.. you really > > are a > > > > challenge :) in a nice way.
> > > >> Artie, > > > >> Thank you for the compliment, but I am new to this course. I just > > gave my > > > >> perspective on the value of stepping out of the box. Maybe learners > > can > > > >> become teachers and vice versa. Since this is a course on > > facilitation, > > > >> perhaps you would be willing to adopt the role of a facilitator.
> > > >> Warm wishes, > > > >> Nellie
> > > >> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:12 PM, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com > > >wrote:
> > > >>> That is not community. It's individualism and it's irresponsible. If > > you > > > >>> are in this course, you are responsible to do the work. One of the > > things we > > > >>> are supposed to do is to meet. I met with you on your terms but you > > have > > > >>> refused to meet with me on mine.
> > > >>> I actually don't think of you as being in this course. You did FOC07 > > and > > > >>> are hanging about for some reason. All of the FOC07 people are doing > > that > > > >>> and it misled me into believing that there were other actual > > participants in > > > >>> this course.
> > > >>> Maybe if FOC07 sees themselves as official members of the FOC > > community, > > > >>> then they need to either elect me into the membership with full > > rights and > > > >>> responsibilities, or tell me to beat it.
> > > >>>> Artie, > > > >>>> As a learner, you have valid expectations. However, you may not be > > > >>>> getting the kinds of responses you would expect from "teachers" > > right now > > > >>>> because they are practicing "out of the box" experiences as > > non-teachers. > > > >>>> Teachers are generally ready to cater to learners' every wish. Is > > that a > > > >>>> good thing? Does receiving step by step guidelines, handouts, and > > expected > > > >>>> goals facilitate the learning process? Perhaps allowing learners the > > freedom > > > >>>> of experimenting and learning via trial and error yields more > > effective > > > >>>> results in the
