Course blog updated: I'm falling behind Week 7 Blog networks

[Leigh Blackall]

Hey everyone, I'm catching up. The course blog has been updated...
______________

Its almost the end of week 7 where we look into blogging networks and I have only just finished catching up on emails and blogs posts. I realise that I haven't updated my news reader with the feeds of some late comers to the course too! Better do that.

2 things I am noticing over all. We are still tending to blinker our thinking with educator eyes. Most of us have the rest of our working days to think about teaching people we call "learners", how about taking some time out from that way of thinking and considering people as people, and facilitation not as teaching or an educational practice with some kind of learning objective. If you did try and think outside that box for a bit, as Bron has been doing for a few weeks now, I think you will discover ideas that will ultimately inform your teacherly practices, maybe even expand horizons to a possible new role in the community that is not all about learning outcomes. Perhaps listening to the meeting recording from last week will shed light on this line of thinking.

I have also noticed a slight slow down in blog posts, and especially comments and networking with each other. It is a shame to see more and more posts without comments, where as earlier in the course I was amazed by the number of comments helping to keep us stitched together. Naturally we all get busy, especially as the novelty of the course wears off, and it is in part due to the start of the CCK08 course for some of us, but I hope we can all keep up the effort for FOC08 and aim keep it going, networking with and supporting each other as much as possible. It helps us all along and keeps us feeling connected.

Not long now and we will be collaborating in the organisation of an online conference. I wonder how many people we will have with us for that? How many of us have started thinking what we will do for it? and how will we do it. Will we have panels, debates, discussion threads with summaries, photo stories, the development of a wiki document... I wonder?

So early next week I think we should aim to meet online again. I'm thinking Monday UTC at the usual two times.. 8am and 9pm UTC. One thing that really needs discussion at that meeting is what we should do about week 8! It has no instructions!!

--
Posted By Leigh Blackall to Facilitating Online Communities at 9/12/2008 10:28:00 PM

--
--
Leigh Blackall
+64(0)21736539
skype - leigh_blackall
SL - Leroy Goalpost
http://learnonline.wordpress.com

[artie]

Leigh, you are not the only one who is behind here. I still haven't written anything about forums and blogs, but I will be saying much about these throughout this course. It's OK to be behind but what concerns me is the many people I seemed to have wasted my energy upon here. I have quoted on blogs and not received posts on my blog, I attended a meeting that someone wanted me to attend yet when it came to pitching in on any of my projects or blog entries, that person is strangely absent.

 

People come to communities for interaction. To throw up a link to a world clock is one thing. It's another thing to interact around that as a practical dialogue and learn it.

 

I am not a teacher. I am a learner. When I write and ask questions it's because I want to know. I wish that someone else would buddy up with me in this quest.

 

--
If I don't admit that it's broke, I don't have to fix it!

[NELLIE DEUTSCH]

Artie,
As a learner, you have valid expectations. However, you may not be getting the kinds of responses you would expect from "teachers" right now because they are practicing "out of the box" experiences as non-teachers. Teachers are generally ready to cater to learners' every wish. Is that a good thing? Does receiving step by step guidelines, handouts, and expected goals facilitate the learning process? Perhaps allowing learners the freedom of experimenting and learning via trial and error yields more effective results in the long run. Perhaps, good facilitation is not being there. It may feel good for learners to have teachers constantly at their side advising every step of the way, but it might also interfere with the learner's pace and learning style. The learning process may take longer, but it may be more meaningful and lifelong.

--
Nellie Deutsch
Doctoral Student
Educational Leadership
Curriculum and Instruction
http://www.nelliemuller.com
http://www.integrating-technology.com/pd
http://www.building-relationship.com/education
http://blendedlear.ning.com

[artie]

That is not community. It's individualism and it's irresponsible. If you are in this course, you are responsible to do the work. One of the things we are supposed to do is to meet. I met with you on your terms but you have refused to meet with me on mine.

 

I actually don't think of you as being in this course. You did FOC07 and are hanging about for some reason. All of the FOC07 people are doing that and it misled me into believing that there were other actual participants in this course.

 

Maybe if FOC07 sees themselves as official members of the FOC community, then they need to either elect me into the membership with full rights and responsibilities, or tell me to beat it.

 

love an kisses

artie

 

[NELLIE DEUTSCH]

Artie,
Thank you for the compliment, but I am new  to this course. I just gave my perspective on the value of stepping out of the box. Maybe learners can become teachers and vice versa. Since this is a course on facilitation, perhaps you would be willing to adopt the role of a facilitator.

Warm wishes,
Nellie

[Leigh Blackall]

Woah there Artie! You are brewing a storm in a tea cup. Your blog is an exceptional read and I am sure many people are reading your blog and just need more time to get to know you through it. Did you know I have over 3 000 readers of my blog per month and rarely get comments? My other blogs are written for family over seas, and though they read them they almost never comment. I have been blogging since early 2004 and have come to see that comments are not necessarily a measure of interaction - just like lurking is not an indication of being disengaged. Blogging is a process of developing an individual voice, confidence in yourself, a framework for personal reflection and thinking, and commenting on the world around you... if that results in a connection with other people then you enter into another dimension of blogging, but this takes time. People need time to get to know you and how you think and how you react. We are all still getting to know each other. You come across as unusual, your ideas are not standard, and your reactions are unpredictable.. this means it will take longer for people to get to know you. From were I sit, it looks like you just snapped at Nellie and everyone else here, but then you signed off with "love and kisses". From reading your blog and your posts to this email forum I can see that you have some very valuable perspectives to bring to our topics - things I had not considered before, but you must be patient. Yes there is individualism going on - I don't see this as a bad thing necessarily. Yes this is NOT a community - something I have been saying all along. This is a course, something for people to follow, there are learning objectives and forming a "community" for this course is not one of them. If small networks, personal and professional connections and even a sense of community emerges out of that, then great! The drama you bring to us will certainly help (or hurt) the potential for emotional bonding. But this is primarily a course for people to follow. What are they following? A sequence of topics I have designed, a range of readings relating to those topics, task oriented assignments, and assessment activities. All of this is designed to help people achieve certain outcomes, for some this is the certificate for this course. Developing a community in this context is NOT a primary objective. The primary objective is to be exposed to and consider a range of topics relating to the facilitation of online communities. By all means, continue your attempts to establish connections, networks and maybe even a sense of community - if this is what YOU need to help you get through this course. But keep in mind that NOT everyone needs that, and the pool of people you have around you here is relatively small in both size and time dimensions. Looking forward to your next post to your blog BTW Artie.. you really are a challenge :) in a nice way.

[artie]

Leigh,

 

Thanks for the feedback. At least I know what to expect. OK. I'm going to continue blogging all the way through this course no matter what.

 

:)

artie

2008/9/12 Leigh Blackall <leighb...@gmail.com>

[Minhaaj ur Rehman]

Seems i am the only one completing the assingments ? :)
Nah artie has been really vibrant and i must appreciate her
involvement. Leigh has really a lot to cope but he is still doing a
great job :)

On Sep 13, 7:49 am, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Leigh,
>
> Thanks for the feedback. At least I know what to expect. OK. I'm going to
> continue blogging all the way through this course no matter what.
>
> :)
> artie

> 2008/9/12 Leigh Blackall <leighblack...@gmail.com>

> >> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:12 PM, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> That is not community. It's individualism and it's irresponsible. If you
> >>> are in this course, you are responsible to do the work. One of the things we
> >>> are supposed to do is to meet. I met with you on your terms but you have
> >>> refused to meet with me on mine.
>
> >>> I actually don't think of you as being in this course. You did FOC07 and
> >>> are hanging about for some reason. All of the FOC07 people are doing that
> >>> and it misled me into believing that there were other actual participants in
> >>> this course.
>
> >>> Maybe if FOC07 sees themselves as official members of the FOC community,
> >>> then they need to either elect me into the membership with full rights and
> >>> responsibilities, or tell me to beat it.
>
> >>> love an kisses
> >>> artie
>

> >>>  On 12/09/2008, NELLIE DEUTSCH <nellie.muller.deut...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>  Artie,
> >>>> As a learner, you have valid expectations. However, you may not be
> >>>> getting the kinds of responses you would expect from "teachers" right now
> >>>> because they are practicing "out of the box" experiences as non-teachers.
> >>>> Teachers are generally ready to cater to learners' every wish. Is that a
> >>>> good thing? Does receiving step by step guidelines, handouts, and expected
> >>>> goals facilitate the learning process? Perhaps allowing learners the freedom
> >>>> of experimenting and learning via trial and error yields more effective
> >>>> results in the long run. Perhaps, good facilitation is not being there. It
> >>>> may feel good for learners to have teachers constantly at their side
> >>>> advising every step of the way, but it might also interfere with the
> >>>> learner's pace and learning style. The learning process may take longer, but
> >>>> it may be more meaningful and lifelong.
>

> >>>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:41 AM, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>> Leigh, you are not the only one who is behind here. I still haven't
> >>>>> written anything about forums and blogs, but I will be saying much about
> >>>>> these throughout this course. It's OK to be behind but what concerns me is
> >>>>> the many people I seemed to have wasted my energy upon here. I have quoted
> >>>>> on blogs and not received posts on my blog, I attended a meeting that
> >>>>> someone wanted me to attend yet when it came to pitching in on any of my
> >>>>> projects or blog entries, that person is strangely absent.
>
> >>>>> People come to communities for interaction. To throw up a link to a
> >>>>> world clock is one thing. It's another thing to interact around that as a
> >>>>> practical dialogue and learn it.
>
> >>>>> I am not a teacher. I am a learner. When I write and ask questions it's
> >>>>> because I want to know. I wish that someone else would buddy up with me in
> >>>>> this quest.
>

> >>>>> On 12/09/2008, Leigh Blackall <leighblack...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> Hey everyone, I'm catching up. The course blog has been updated...
> >>>>>> ______________
>

> >>>>>> <http://flickr.com/photos/mastababa/2254468211/>Its almost the end of

> >>>>>> week 7 where we look into blogging networks and I have only just finished
> >>>>>> catching up on emails and blogs posts. I realise that I haven't updated my

> >>>>>> news reader with the feeds of some late comers<http://www.wikieducator.org/Facilitating_online_communities/FOC08>to the course too! Better do that.

>
> >>>>>> 2 things I am noticing over all. We are still tending to blinker our
> >>>>>> thinking with educator eyes. Most of us have the rest of our working days to
> >>>>>> think about teaching people we call "learners", how about taking some time
> >>>>>> out from that way of thinking and considering people as people, and
> >>>>>> facilitation not as teaching or an educational practice with some kind of
> >>>>>> learning objective. If you did try and think outside that box for a bit, as Bron

> >>>>>> has been doing<http://bronst.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/where-does-education-learn/>for a few weeks now, I think you will discover ideas that will ultimately

> >>>>>> inform your teacherly practices, maybe even expand horizons to a possible
> >>>>>> new role in the community that is not all about learning outcomes. Perhaps

> >>>>>> listening to the meeting recording<http://www.wikieducator.org/Facilitating_online_communities/Meetings/...>from last week will shed light on this line of thinking.

>
> >>>>>> I have also noticed a slight slow down in blog posts, and especially
> >>>>>> comments and networking with each other. It is a shame to see more and more
> >>>>>> posts without comments, where as earlier in the course I was amazed by the
> >>>>>> number of comments helping to keep us stitched together. Naturally we all
> >>>>>> get busy, especially as the novelty of the course wears off, and it is in

> >>>>>> part due to the start of the CCK08 course<http://ltc.umanitoba.ca/wiki/Connectivism>for some of us, but I hope we can all keep up the effort for FOC08 and aim

> >>>>>> keep it going, networking with and supporting each other as much as
> >>>>>> possible. It helps us all along and keeps us feeling connected.
>
> >>>>>> Not long now and we will be collaborating in the organisation of an
> >>>>>> online conference. I wonder how many people we will have with us for that?
> >>>>>> How many of us have started thinking what we will do for it? and how will we
> >>>>>> do it. Will we have panels, debates, discussion threads with summaries,
> >>>>>> photo stories, the development of a wiki document... I wonder?
>
> >>>>>> So early next week I think we should aim to meet online again. I'm
> >>>>>> thinking Monday UTC at the usual two times.. 8am and 9pm UTC. One thing that
> >>>>>> really needs discussion at that meeting is what we should do about week 8!
> >>>>>> It has no instructions!!
>
> >>>>>> --

> >>>>>> Posted By Leigh Blackall to Facilitating Online Communities<http://facilitatingonlinecommunities.blogspot.com/2008/09/im-falling-...>at 9/12/2008 10:28:00 PM

>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Leigh Blackall
> >>>>>>+64(0)21736539
> >>>>>> skype - leigh_blackall
> >>>>>> SL - Leroy Goalpost
> >>>>>>http://learnonline.wordpress.com
>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> If I
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[artie]

Nellie,

 

Sorry. See. There was something I didn't know.

 

Leigh,

 

This is the reason I am questioning you so much about the meetings. I'm checking to see if I am understanding correctly.

 

:)

artie

2008/9/12 NELLIE DEUTSCH <nellie.mul...@gmail.com>

[artie]

Minhaaj,

 

I deleted your blog from my blogroll because the feed did not work and when I did get to your blog through another link, it hadn't been updated in weeks. Do I have the correct blog for you. Give me the link so I can test it and see if it works.

 

:)

artie

2008/9/12 Minhaaj ur Rehman <min...@gmail.com>

[NELLIE DEUTSCH]

Thanks for this post, Minhaaj. Now I know Artie is a female. I had no idea since I never heard her speak. In fact, it would be nice to know a bit more about you, Artie. For a start, what does Artie stand for? Is it your real name?

Thank you.
Nellie

[alexanderhayes]

How can we avoid sounding like we support an online form of fishbowl
institutional modus-operandi and thesis-seeking rhetoric ?

On Sep 13, 5:51 am, "NELLIE DEUTSCH" <nellie.muller.deut...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > On 12/09/2008, Leigh Blackall <leighblack...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Hey everyone, I'm catching up. The course blog has been updated...
> >> ______________
>

> >> <http://flickr.com/photos/mastababa/2254468211/>Its almost the end of

> >> week 7 where we look into blogging networks and I have only just finished
> >> catching up on emails and blogs posts. I realise that I haven't updated my

> >> news reader with the feeds of some late comers<http://www.wikieducator.org/Facilitating_online_communities/FOC08>to the course too! Better do that.

>
> >> 2 things I am noticing over all. We are still tending to blinker our
> >> thinking with educator eyes. Most of us have the rest of our working days to
> >> think about teaching people we call "learners", how about taking some time
> >> out from that way of thinking and considering people as people, and
> >> facilitation not as teaching or an educational practice with some kind of
> >> learning objective. If you did try and think outside that box for a bit, as Bron

> >> has been doing<http://bronst.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/where-does-education-learn/>for a few weeks now, I think you will discover ideas that will ultimately

> >> inform your teacherly practices, maybe even expand horizons to a possible
> >> new role in the community that is not all about learning outcomes. Perhaps

> >> listening to the meeting recording<http://www.wikieducator.org/Facilitating_online_communities/Meetings/...>from last week will shed light on this line of thinking.

>
> >> I have also noticed a slight slow down in blog posts, and especially
> >> comments and networking with each other. It is a shame to see more and more
> >> posts without comments, where as earlier in the course I was amazed by the
> >> number of comments helping to keep us stitched together. Naturally we all
> >> get busy, especially as the novelty of the course wears off, and it is in

> >> part due to the start of the CCK08 course<http://ltc.umanitoba.ca/wiki/Connectivism>for some of us, but I hope we can all keep up the effort for FOC08 and aim

> >> keep it going, networking with and supporting each other as much as
> >> possible. It helps us all along and keeps us feeling connected.
>
> >> Not long now and we will be collaborating in the organisation of an online
> >> conference. I wonder how many people we will have with us for that? How many
> >> of us have started thinking what we will do for it? and how will we do it.
> >> Will we have panels, debates, discussion threads with summaries, photo
> >> stories, the development of a wiki document... I wonder?
>
> >> So early next week I think we should aim to meet online again. I'm
> >> thinking Monday UTC at the usual two times.. 8am and 9pm UTC. One thing that
> >> really needs discussion at that meeting is what we should do about week 8!
> >> It has no instructions!!
>
> >> --

> >> Posted By Leigh Blackall to Facilitating Online Communities<http://facilitatingonlinecommunities.blogspot.com/2008/09/im-falling-...>at 9/12/2008 10:28:00 PM

[alexanderhayes]

Why delete someone who hasn't updated in weeks ? Do you know their
life position or issues that deeply yet ?

Wheres the depth to your decision/s ?

What's with the smiling assassin behavior ?

What do you gain from threatening fellow online facilitators with
deletion ?

I'm finding your behavior nothing more than smug.

On Sep 13, 12:57 pm, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Minhaaj,
>
> I deleted your blog from my blogroll because the feed did not work and when
> I did get to your blog through another link, it hadn't been updated in
> weeks. Do I have the correct blog for you. Give me the link so I can test it
> and see if it works.
>
> :)
> artie
>

> 2008/9/12 Minhaaj ur Rehman <minh...@gmail.com>

> >http://www.wikieducator.org/Facilitating_online_communities/Meetings/..<http://www.wikieducator.org/Facilitating_online_communities/>.>from

> > last week will shed light on this line of thinking.
>
> > > >>>>>> I have also noticed a slight slow down in blog posts, and
> > especially
> > > >>>>>> comments and networking with each other. It is a shame to see more
> > and more
> > > >>>>>> posts without comments, where as earlier in the course I was
> > amazed by the
> > > >>>>>> number of comments helping to keep us stitched together. Naturally
> > we all
> > > >>>>>> get busy, especially as the novelty of the course wears off, and
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[alexanderhayes]

Likewise.

On Sep 13, 2:52 pm, "NELLIE DEUTSCH" <nellie.muller.deut...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thanks for this post, Minhaaj. Now I know Artie is a female. I had no idea
> since I never heard her speak. In fact, it would be nice to know a bit more
> about you, Artie. For a start, what does Artie stand for? Is it your real
> name?
>
> Thank you.
> Nellie
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Leigh Blackall]

In defense of Artie (or in defense of all that happens here), the controversy and drama being brought on through Artie's posts could be a catalyst for social bonding and a sense of community. I hope that we can all observe this as it unfolds - not change or restrain any of our postings and reactions, keep being who you are, but also observe. This IS a good learning experience in terms of facilitating online learning communities. Artie DOES bring valuable perspective and cultural difference to us, as does Alex and everyone else. Of course there is value in diversity - but observing and appreciating what that value REALLY is is the challenge I think...

[Greg V. Barcelon, Jr., Ph.D.]

Leigh,

 

Indeed, “this IS a good learning experience.” It is also an interesting “facilitating” path (for me, at least) you have taken. Would you share with us whether you were consciously facilitating when you wrote that post? Or were you simply participating as a member of the community?

 

I was reflecting on our earlier discussion of the differences there may be in playing the roles of a ‘facilitator,’ a ‘teacher,’ and a ‘moderator.’ I suspect that there will be finer variations depending on which platform is being used, but when it comes to Discussion Groups/Forums, I think some differences can be found in the following:

 

Facilitator – makes it easy (through appropriate set-up, summary, integration of threads or even challenging questions/comments) for members to continue sharing their ideas, feelings, experiences and the like.

 

Moderator – monitors the way the members are sharing, exchanging and discussing issues – ready to step in when some members go out of bounds (in some cases may even exercise the task of deleting or editing posts that are not consistent with the goal of the group) and making appropriate comments to refocus the community towards its goals.

 

Teacher – implants learning points, highlights learning opportunities, presents relevant information to encourage members to pick up their own insights about what is being discussed as well as the process that the group is using in discussing them.

 

Yet, when I re-read your last post, I see all three being there.  I also see all three components even in Nellie’s single-line post which states:  “I think it may be more pleasant to review some netiquette guidelines when responding.“

I am now wondering whether we can truly differentiate facilitating from moderating and teaching.  I quickly reviewed what the blogs had about this and I kinda like Kay Lewis’ conclusion: “I suggest the skills of a teacher, moderator and facilitator need not be mutually exclusive but overlap, at varying degrees, depending on the level, purpose of the lesson, the power of the questions you pose, the information you need ...”

Still learning…

[NELLIE DEUTSCH]

No problem, Artie. I am trying to understand why people find it necessary to use unpleasant language when trying to be understood or in trying to show criticism. However, if name calling is a way to go about it, I will try not to judge it for anything more than it is, just name calling. I have never been accused of things in an online discussion forum before so this is very new to me. One member has said in google chat that I "come across sometimes with a 'holier-than-thou contribution' ". I apologize if that is the case. I certainly don't want to be the one aggravating the situation.

[NELLIE DEUTSCH]

Greg,
I find that a teacher may be a facilitator and moderator, but a facilitator and moderator do not act as teachers. I felt very uncomfortable posting the following sentence:

"I think it may be more pleasant to review some netiquette guidelines when responding."

However, I questioned myself as I added the sentence. The sentence was more of a question than a prescription. Is it wise to be more pleasant for others as it is for me? How do you feel about conducting criticism? Should there be ground rules on how to express ourselves in public sessions?

I'm learning...

Nellie

[Leigh Blackall]

Greg: Would you share with us whether you were consciously facilitating when you wrote that post?

Hi Greg, I was not consciously facilitating, certainly not teaching, and perhaps moderating a little. I was not doing so as part of the community, because there is not a community here - there is a course. This is a course, for which I am trying to facilitate people through the topics, but through my own impatience and bias I tend to be teaching it more than facilitating it. I'm still waiting to see many of we teachers drop the edu speak and really show broader understanding of the role of facilitator. In one of last week's meetings we talked about what professions and sectors (outside of education) draw on skills of a facilitator and not a teacher. I really think we should be looking through those a lot more. I think Nellie gets it right:

Nellie: I find that a teacher may be a facilitator and moderator, but a facilitator and moderator do not act as teachers.

I had hoped that this open course would have attracted more people from outside the education sector - to balance the inescapable world view that teachers carry. In light of a clear imbalance and my insistence that we think outside our box for this course, I really hope some of us will go and interview people from those sectors that use a community facilitator. See if you can add to the list:

Journalist
Chairperson
Conference facilitator
Local council community consultation facilitator
Forum facilitator
Online community facilitator
Events coordinator
Master of ceremonies
 

[alexanderhayes]

Hi Leigh,

I totally agree with your sentiments. It's a very powerful way of
working and testament of a true facilitator to make as much effort to
act inclusively and try and understand the differences that people may
have in any online event or community.

The differences are what make this all work and to see people putting
valued time and effort into better understanding each other keeps me
coming back. In doing so my aim is not to troll nor to accept things
which annoy or upset me.

Rather, my contributions are like any other....somewhat measured of
late due to my enjoyment of reading more than writing. The value for
me comes in finding ways to get past pleasantries and get into the
nitty gritty of this course.

This opportunity is a rare one, a ground breaking way of working, an
opportunity to air feelings and expressions openly and the correct
space and place to build critical acclaim for a model or way of
working that takes us out of our comfort zones and into new territory.

With all new things comes upset. I stayed awake till 4 am in the
morning thinking of this having had a long online discussion with Bee
via Gmail chat. Sure, some people might say that I'm rude and abrasive
at times.

The truth of the matter is I engage online as I would off. What grabs
me I speak of and in doing so sometimes I reference others, past
experience or my own thoughts.

I've been facilitating online since my Curtin University days in 1997
using WebCT. Everything has changed. The web is a differing space and
place.

My heartfelt concern for others has never changed however and having
the opportunity to engage with you and your ideas has been one of the
most important things in my professional life in the last decade.

Prior to that I was removing children from families, teaching in
prisons in the most perverse conditions and trying to save kids from
petrol sniffing or prostitution. Perhaps that background has
influenced my diction somewhat and if others can only understand that
complexity then my contributions here will be as any other.

:)

On Sep 14, 8:48 am, "Leigh Blackall" <leighblack...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In defense of Artie (or in defense of all that happens here), the
> controversy and drama being brought on through Artie's posts could be a
> catalyst for social bonding and a sense of community. I hope that we can all
> observe this as it unfolds - not change or restrain any of our postings and
> reactions, keep being who you are, but also observe. This IS a good learning
> experience in terms of facilitating online learning communities. Artie DOES
> bring valuable perspective and cultural difference to us, as does Alex and
> everyone else. Of course there is value in diversity - but observing and
> appreciating what that value REALLY is is the challenge I think...
>
> On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:31 PM, alexanderhayes <
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[alexanderhayes]

Hi Nellie,

When we speak of language it's most interesting to note that the
pleasantries shared in one culture don't translate clearly into
another particularly across the web.

As Nancy White told me once, my Aussie colloquialisms are often lost
and seen as some only to aggravate others....that my humour and
sardonism generated out of frustration nothing more than a veiled
tantrum translated into some form of less-than-prosaic prose.

Likewise Stephen Downes arguing the right to remain as an individual
and not the group.

Or Leigh informing me that teaching is dead.

Or Bee informing me I was drinking too much.

Or, or, or.......hundreds of snippets of 'pleasant' enough information
but life changing at each turn.

The joy of all of this is that we will come to know of each other more
clearly, and in doing so our lives and our working / professional
positions will be the richer for it.

Long live pleasantries.

Aggravate us.....we can find out more of what makes things come
together that way rather than successfully demonstrating difference
and what separates.

It's raining outside and my baby boy is crying. The kettles on the
boil. It's Sunday and I'm typing....a paradox in itself.

You are all part of my family.




On Sep 14, 12:09 pm, "NELLIE DEUTSCH"

<nellie.muller.deut...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No problem, Artie. I am trying to understand why people find it necessary to
> use unpleasant language when trying to be understood or in trying to show
> criticism. However, if name calling is a way to go about it, I will try not
> to judge it for anything more than it is, just name calling. I have never
> been accused of things in an online discussion forum before so this is very
> new to me. One member has said in google chat that I "come across sometimes
> with a 'holier-than-thou contribution' ". I apologize if that is the case. I
> certainly don't want to be the one aggravating the situation.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:54 PM, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Nellie,
>
> > Sorry. See. There was something I didn't know.
>
> > Leigh,
>
> > This is the reason I am questioning you so much about the meetings. I'm
> > checking to see if I am understanding correctly.
>
> > :)
> > artie

> > 2008/9/12 NELLIE DEUTSCH <nellie.muller.deut...@gmail.com>

>
> >  Artie,
> >> Thank you for the compliment, but I am new  to this course. I just gave my
> >> perspective on the value of stepping out of the box. Maybe learners can
> >> become teachers and vice versa. Since this is a course on facilitation,
> >> perhaps you would be willing to adopt the role of a facilitator.
>
> >> Warm wishes,
> >> Nellie
>

> >> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:12 PM, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> That is not community. It's individualism and it's irresponsible. If you
> >>> are in this course, you are responsible to do the work. One of the things we
> >>> are supposed to do is to meet. I met with you on your terms but you have
> >>> refused to meet with me on mine.
>
> >>> I actually don't think of you as being in this course. You did FOC07 and
> >>> are hanging about for some reason. All of the FOC07 people are doing that
> >>> and it misled me into believing that there were other actual participants in
> >>> this course.
>
> >>> Maybe if FOC07 sees themselves as official members of the FOC community,
> >>> then they need to either elect me into the membership with full rights and
> >>> responsibilities, or tell me to beat it.
>
> >>> love an kisses
> >>> artie
>

> >>>  On 12/09/2008, NELLIE DEUTSCH <nellie.muller.deut...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>  Artie,
> >>>> As a learner, you have valid expectations. However, you may not be
> >>>> getting the kinds of responses you would expect from "teachers" right now
> >>>> because they are practicing "out of the box" experiences as non-teachers.
> >>>> Teachers are generally ready to cater to learners' every wish. Is that a
> >>>> good thing? Does receiving step by step guidelines, handouts, and expected
> >>>> goals facilitate the learning process? Perhaps allowing learners the freedom
> >>>> of experimenting and learning via trial and error yields more effective
> >>>> results in the long run. Perhaps, good facilitation is not being there. It
> >>>> may feel good for learners to have teachers constantly at their side
> >>>> advising every step of the way, but it might also interfere with the
> >>>> learner's pace and learning style. The learning process may take longer, but
> >>>> it may be more meaningful and lifelong.
>

> >>>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:41 AM, artie <artistsforanar...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>> Leigh, you are not the only one who is behind here. I still haven't
> >>>>> written anything about forums and blogs, but I will be saying much about
> >>>>> these throughout this course. It's OK to be behind but what concerns me is
> >>>>> the many people I seemed to have wasted my energy upon here. I have quoted
> >>>>> on blogs and not received posts on my blog, I attended a meeting that
> >>>>> someone wanted me to attend yet when it came to pitching in on any of my
> >>>>> projects or blog entries, that person is strangely absent.
>
> >>>>> People come to communities for interaction. To throw up a link to a
> >>>>> world clock is one thing. It's another thing to interact around that as a
> >>>>> practical dialogue and learn it.
>
> >>>>> I am not a teacher. I am a learner. When I write and ask questions it's
> >>>>> because I want to know. I wish that someone else would buddy up with me in
> >>>>> this quest.
>

> >>>>> On 12/09/2008, Leigh Blackall <leighblack...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> Hey everyone, I'm catching up. The course blog has been updated...
> >>>>>> ______________
>

> >>>>>> <http://flickr.com/photos/mastababa/2254468211/>Its almost the end of

> >>>>>> week 7 where we look into blogging networks and I have only just finished
> >>>>>> catching up on emails and blogs posts. I realise that I haven't updated my

> >>>>>> news reader with the feeds of some late comers<http://www.wikieducator.org/Facilitating_online_communities/FOC08>to the course too! Better do that.

>
> >>>>>> 2 things I am noticing over all. We are still tending to blinker our
> >>>>>> thinking with educator eyes. Most of us have the rest of our working days to
> >>>>>> think about teaching people we call "learners", how about taking some time
> >>>>>> out from that way of thinking and considering people as people, and
> >>>>>> facilitation not as teaching or an educational practice with some kind of
> >>>>>> learning objective. If you did try and think outside that box for a bit, as Bron

> >>>>>> has been doing<http://bronst.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/where-does-education-learn/>for a few weeks now, I think you will discover ideas that will ultimately

> >>>>>> inform your teacherly practices, maybe even expand horizons to a possible
> >>>>>> new role in the community that is not all about learning outcomes. Perhaps

> >>>>>> listening to the meeting recording<http://www.wikieducator.org/Facilitating_online_communities/Meetings/...>from last week will shed light on this line of thinking.

>
> >>>>>> I have also noticed a slight slow down in blog posts, and especially
> >>>>>> comments and networking with each other. It is a shame to see more and more
> >>>>>> posts without comments, where as earlier in the course I was amazed by the
> >>>>>> number of comments helping to keep us stitched together. Naturally we all
> >>>>>> get busy, especially as the novelty of the course wears off, and it is in

> >>>>>> part due to the start of the CCK08 course<http://ltc.umanitoba.ca/wiki/Connectivism>for some of us, but I hope we can all keep up the effort for FOC08 and aim

> >>>>>> keep it going, networking with and supporting each other as much as
> >>>>>> possible. It helps us all along and keeps us feeling connected.
>
> >>>>>> Not long now and we will be collaborating in the organisation of an
> >>>>>> online conference. I wonder how many people we will have with us for that?
> >>>>>> How many of us have started thinking what we will do for it? and how will we
> >>>>>> do it. Will we have panels, debates, discussion threads with summaries,
> >>>>>> photo stories, the development of a wiki document... I wonder?
>
> >>>>>> So early next week I think we should aim to meet online again. I'm
> >>>>>> thinking Monday UTC at the usual two times.. 8am and 9pm UTC. One thing that
> >>>>>> really needs discussion at that meeting is what we should do about week 8!
> >>>>>> It has no instructions!!
>
> >>>>>> --

> >>>>>> Posted By Leigh Blackall to Facilitating Online Communities<http://facilitatingonlinecommunities.blogspot.com/2008/09/im-falling-...>at 9/12/2008 10:28:00 PM

[NELLIE DEUTSCH]

Hi Alex,
Thank you for clarifying things.
I needed to know that.
Nellie

[NELLIE DEUTSCH]

Alex,
I see we have a few things in common besides teaching online since the mid 90s. I have not been teaching, but conducted workshops in prison. It helps me to know as much as I can about the person behind the name.

Thank you.
Nellie

[Greg V. Barcelon, Jr., Ph.D.]

Nellie,

 

I am currently reading “Loving Kindness” by Sharon Salzberg and she tells of a story when once in certain city a drunken man tried to ‘attack’ them and how shaken and upset she was about the incident. After relating the incident to her meditation teacher, the latter told her: “Oh, Sharon, with all the lovingkindness in your hear, you should have taken your umbrella and hit that man over the head with it!”  She continues, “sometimes we think that to develop an open heart, to be truly loving and compassionate, means that we need to be passive, to allow others to abuse us, to smile and let anyone do what they want with us. Yet this is not what is meant by compassion. Quite the contrary. Compassion is not at all weak. It is the strength that arises out of seeing the true nature of suffering in the world. Compassion allows us to bear witness to that suffering, whether it is in ourselves or others, without fear; it allows us to name injustice without hesitation, and to act strongly, with all the skill at our disposal.”

 

What powerful insight! I am also still trying to learn that.

 

Peace,

 

Greg B.

[Illya Arnet-Clark]

Wow, I see that there is movement in the cogwheels again.

I've been busy getting back to work, dealing with a bout of sickness, and letting my brain steam over facilitation. And now, after reading especially the posts about etiquette, niceties and backgrounds, I see a very revelevant aspect of facilitating.

It's been stated before that online communities no longer have physical boundries. This means that there will likely be a variety of cultures coming together. Since we may not be aware of differences, and be they ever so subtle, etiquette becomes more than just niceties, but a way of engaging in communication without the benefits of body language, the background of the other person or other factors that contribute to deeper understanding.

As a facilititator is it not part of our job to make communication easier for the community as well? At the last(?) meeting I suggested that part of our role of facilitator is also that of model. We can make facilitate the process of communication - making it easier - by modelling what is expected.

Alex, what you state here is an example of this:

When we speak of language it's most interesting to note that the
pleasantries shared in one culture don't translate clearly into
another particularly across the web.

As Nancy White told me once, my Aussie colloquialisms are often lost
and seen as some only to aggravate others....that my humour and
sardonism generated out of frustration nothing more than a veiled
tantrum translated into some form of less-than-prosaic prose.

So how do we stay true to ourselves and let our personalities shine through (as they inevitably will), while upholding a certain etiquette to facilitate communication?  I don't see a problem with this, but perhaps it's simply an indicator of my personality, as perhaps it is for you as well,  Nellie.

I don't think this excludes a certain level of 'Compassion' and in some cases bluntness.

[NELLIE DEUTSCH]

Ilya,
I think it's important to ask questions to verify whether our assumptions about people based on  their posts are true. Reacting to what someone says without knowing what they mean may breed and feed all kinds of emotional baggage. Is this what we want in a discussion on facilitation? For example: I think I should have asked questions instead of backing off when the language got unpleasant for me to verify what the other person had in mind when using what I considered bad language. Perhaps, it was the person's normal way of talking. I should have verified things before coming to any conclusions

I'm learning...

Nellie

[NELLIE DEUTSCH]

Thank you, Greg.

[Jeffrey Keefer]

I think these related discussions are quite interesting. It is very difficult to tolerate differences in worldview or educational perspective (among other things), and I think that courses that promote giving voice to alternative perspectives can in turn open learners to a world beyond their own comfort levels. This is one of the features that attracts me to Mezirow’s Transformative Learning.

 

I do wonder, though, at what point does a discussion sink to a level where facts (though not their meanings) begin to get clouded. Perhaps I am musing myself into a new blog post about this . . .

 

 

-----
Jeffrey Keefer
jef...@silenceandvoice.com

 

Blog: http://silenceandvoice.com

Twitter: http://twitter.com/JeffreyKeefer

Website: http://www.jeffreykeefer.com

LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffreykeefer

 

 

 

From: facilitating-on...@googlegroups.com [mailto:facilitating-on...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Leigh Blackall
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 6:49 PM
To: facilitating-on...@googlegroups.com
Subject: ::{{FOC}}:: Re: Course blog updated: I'm falling behind Week 7 Blog networks

 

In defense of Artie (or in defense of all that happens here), the controversy and drama being brought on through Artie's posts could be a catalyst for social bonding and a sense of community. I hope that we can all observe this as it unfolds - not change or restrain any of our postings and reactions, keep being who you are, but also observe. This IS a good learning experience in terms of facilitating online learning communities. Artie DOES bring valuable perspective and cultural difference to us, as does Alex and everyone else. Of course there is value in diversity - but observing and appreciating what that value REALLY is is the challenge I think...

[NELLIE DEUTSCH]

Jeffrey,
I wonder whether we should stay at the level of facts or go beyond into perhaps a deeper transformational kind of learning as suggested by Mezirow (1978).

Mezirow, J. (1078). Perspective transformation. Adult Education Quarterly, 28(2), 100-110.


I'm learning...

[Leigh Blackall]

Jeffery: I do wonder, though, at what point does a discussion sink to a level where facts (though not their meanings) begin to get clouded. Perhaps I am musing myself into a new blog post about this

I see it as a job of a facilitator that, if the online community values facts and "high" order thinking in its discourse, where they see the absence of facts or good referencing, that they prompt for it.

I have noticed a general lack of referencing, cross referencing each other, or linking out to supporting information in both email posts and blog posts. I can understand it, it takes a bit of work - especially when new to the topic area, and although the topics have provided readings and references, on the whole we have come back with opinion. This could be a time thing of course.. people need time to chew on things and the expression of opinion relating to prompting questions in the topics is a good way to do that.. but in terms of studying a course goes, eventually it must be necessary to either address the readings or find new references.

I'm on the hunt for a good reading relating to the idea of getting eduthink out of facilitation for a bit... I thought Stephen Downes' video on Groups and Networks was that reference, but clearly I need to find more.

[Leigh Blackall]

:) There we go!

Nellie, could you add a bit more on what you see in Mezirow that should entice us to read?

[NELLIE DEUTSCH]

My pleasure, Leigh. But must go to work, first.

Have a great, day.

Nellie

[Jeffrey Keefer]

As a qualitative methodology, we have to go into a deeper level. That’s when and where we start experiencing and making different meanings differently.

 

I just posted a blog post about all this . . .

[Jeffrey Keefer]

I just posted something about this (before having read this, Leigh):

http://silenceandvoice.com/archives/2008/09/15/foc08-and-transformative-learning/

 

Mezirow was a tough read, as at first it seemed harmless and then I really got a dose of how disorienting and challenging learning can be.

[Barbara Dieu]

>Or Bee informing me I was drinking too much.

Did I? Do not remember...lol..thought it was the other way
round..which just shows, doesn't it? :-)
Bee

--
Barbara Dieu
http://dekita.org
http://beespace.net