Dante
Giuseppe Carollo
improve my typographic education was to be able (soon or later :-) ) to
typeset something similar to some wonderful publications made at
Stamperia Valdonega in Verona, which I had the chance to keep in my
hands.
As I expected, I found Mardesteig's Dante among the the noticeable
typefaces mentioned by Robert Bringhurst in his "bible".
According to Bringhurst, "...in its foundry form, it's one one the great
achievements of twentieth century typography (...) but the Monotype
digital version is considerably coarser than its metal antecedents".
Which is your experience with this typeface? is the digital version such
an horrible thing or not? Many thanks
b.
Roy Preston
Giuseppe. I've no reference of the original to be able to comment, but I'd just like to say that Dante has one of the most beautiful lowercase italic 'g's I've ever seen.
Roy P
Edward Burke
I've seen samples of a fount called Dante Baily - is this the same or
similar in any way?
Ed Burke
Nguyen, Phan
> similar in any way?
>
appropriately named Emil Klump (or was it Klumpp?).
The real Dante is one of the greatest book faces conceived by a human being.
I should also stress that it is a book face and should be used almost
exclusively for such work, because that's where it sparkles.
I have not seen a significant showing of digital Monotype Dante in use.
During Mardersteig's lifetime, he was opposed to converting Dante for
phototypographic and offset use. This was pre-digital, of course. As you
know Dante was available both as foundry type and for the Monotype. It was
never converted to phototype.
The colophon to John Dreyfus's _Into Print_ (1994), notes that the book was
set in a digitized version of Dante which was designed under the supervision
of Mardersteig's son, Martino, and is in use by the Stamperia Valdonega.
It's called VAL Dante. It sounds to me like VAL Dante is a different version
than MT Dante, and is for the exclusive use of the Stamperia Valdonega,
perhaps? I wonder if VAL was based on the foundry version and MT based on
the Monotype version.
Being in Italy, Giuseppe, maybe you are better suited to inquire to the
Stamperia Valdonega about the case of VAL Dante. If so, then you can report
your findings back to us!
Hrant H. Papazian
> The real Dante is one of the greatest book faces conceived
> by a human being.
Can you put your finger on why?
hhp
Nguyen, Phan
Sander already answered my basic questions regarding VAL Dante in a Typo-L
message that I have not yet received.
At some point Hrant will quote me as having written:
> The real Dante is one of the greatest book faces conceived
> by a human being.
He will then ask:
>Can you put your finger on why?
Unfortunately as I have not yet received Hrant's message, I am not yet able
to answer it.
Nguyen, Phan
> > by a human being.
>
>
NO.
Well, sure, I can say a few things about it, but it won't do Dante justice.
Right now I don't even have a sample of Dante with me.
Mardersteig and Malin framed the essence of a successful book type. Dante is
poetic but not in a fancy way that limits its usage. At the same time it has
a subtle personality that reveals itself through extended reading. That's
its environment, and that's why I feel it should be used almost exclusively
as a book face. You have to sit down with a book set in Dante, maybe read
slowly or comfortably, and take every word in. Dante communicates
eloquently.
Look at the succint terminal on the hook of the 'a'. It's none of that wimpy
tapered and sheared stuff, and it's not an imposing teardrop or bulb. It's
pinched.
Now look at the bowl of that same 'a'. The angles are crisp, distinguished.
The concise treatment of the bowl's exit from the vertical stem is reflected
in the bottom of the 'd' and the shoulders of the 'm' and 'n'.
The cap height is calmingly low and close to the x-height. This actually
makes the caps appear wider than usual. But with Dante, it just makes sense.
There's a comforting rhythm that results from the harmonious interaction of
the congenial proportions, the meditative stroke modulation, and the logical
stroke curves and angles. In the typographic social class, Dante is
professional and dignified, serious and respectable, but not bourgeois.
I dunno. It's just a no-bullshit typeface.
John Dreyfus has rationalized the virtues of Dante very well, both in his
article in _Fine Print on Type_, and in the Mardersteig piece in _Into
Print_, which you should read.
I agree with Roy that the lc italic 'g' is amazing. In fact whenever I see
something composed in Dante, I actively seek out the instances of lc italic
'g' and its graceful bottom counter.
Hrant H. Papazian
> I agree with Roy that the lc italic 'g' is amazing.
Agreed.
The reason this is significant is that, to me, the lc "g"
is the only character in the Latin alphabet that's truly
challenging to design to the highest levels.
hhp
Charles Smith
I've read the Fine Print article. Is Into Print a book or article? Complete
cite, please. I've recently purchased a variety of Dante fonts (monotype) &
intend to use it in the next chapbook I print. I'm still comparing the
digital version (MT) to the metal; the former *does* seem 'stiffer' (for lack
of any real analytic vocabulary).
best,
Charles
Nguyen, Phan
> Complete
> cite, please.
>
AUTHOR: Dreyfus, John.
TITLE: Into print : selected writings on printing history, typography and
book production
PUBLISHER: British Library, London
YEAR: 1994
FORMAT: x, 339 p. : ill., facsims. ; 24 cm.
SERIES: The British Library studies in the history of the book
ISBN: 071230343X
That's the British version. Here's the US version:
AUTHOR: Dreyfus, John.
TITLE: Into print : selected writings on printing history, typography and
book production
PUBLISHER: David R. Godine, Boston
YEAR: 1995
FORMAT: x, 339 p. : ill., facsims. ; 23 cm.
ISBN: 1567920454
The US version has the colophon concerning VAL Dante. The British version
does not; it notes the typeface in the copyright page only. Then again, the
British version has a dustjacket and spine lettering done by Michael Harvey
(I think). The US version has a boring spine (I know).
And finally--if you're loaded---there's an extra fancy edition, limited to
95 copies, with an insert printed at the Officina Bodoni and other fancy
stuff.
_Into Print_ is a collection of articles written by John Dreyfus, former
British Monotype bigwig and typographic father-figure. As you know, Dreyfus
oversaw the production of hot metal Dante. He was also involved in the
production of digital Dante, as stated in the centenary issue of the
Monotype Recorder. I don't recall to what extent his involvement was, and I
wasn't there.
The Mardersteig piece, if I remember correctly, is an English traslation of
an essay originally written for a German exhibition catalog. Dreyfus has
actually written several articles on Mardersteig.
Michael Scarpitti
when printing at the Officina Bodoni returned to full production. He
drew on his experience of using Monotype Bembo and Centaur to design a
new book face with an italic which worked harmoniously with the roman.
Originally hand-cut by Charles Malin, it was adapted for mechanical
composition by Monotype in 1957. The new digital version has been
redrawn, by Monotype's Ron Carpenter, free from any restrictions
imposed by hot metal technology. It was issued in 1993 in a range of
three weights with a set of titling capitals, and is now available from
Adobe. Dante is a beautiful book face which can also be used to good
effect in magazines and periodicals.
Dante MT is a trademark of The Monotype Corporation registered in the
US Patent and Trademark Office and may be registered in certain other
jurisdictions.
See:
http://www.adobe.com/type/browser/F/P_450/F_DANT-10005000.html
_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Roy Preston
http://www.lds.co.uk/preston/typo/cart.htm
Roy P
Roy Preston
favourite -- Rotis Semiserif. Granted, Octavian's stem weight is heavier,
has a smaller x-height and the thins are thicker, but the similarity is
strong, especially the lc! I do *love* the two 'Ww's. Like to see it set as
body.
Roy P
Hrant H. Papazian
> Like to see it set as body.
Same here, damn it! And I've been looking for three days.
The two on-campus books I found are missing, and the
others (that Phan pointed out) are off-campus.
BTW, Phan, do you know of any *photo* (as opposed to
Monotype) or maybe even digital settings of Octavian?
hhp
Nguyen, Phan
> favourite -- Rotis Semiserif. Granted, Octavian's stem weight is heavier,
> has a smaller x-height and the thins are thicker, but the similarity is
> strong, especially the lc!
>
made to shape an underpriveleged Rotis into an admirable Octavian:
-correct the dazzling stroke modulation
-reshape the serifs, semi or otherwise
-alter the proportions considerably
-throw away the design and start over
And there you have it!
Nguyen, Phan
> > in Manuscript and Print, vols. 1 and 2
>
> I just got volume one (which has the two "Ideal" essays),
> but they don't seem to be the real thing: the versions
> in The Fleuron are 19 and 33 pages, respectively, but
> the ones in "Selected Essays" are 7 and 23 pages.
>
Peculiar. Are you sure the page difference is not due to the typesetting and
layout? I don't think McKitterick ever noted that these articles were
abridged. Maybe you can take the book over to Special Collections and
compare. Meanwhile, I'm putting my two best detectives on the case.
Nguyen, Phan
> Monotype) or maybe even digital settings of Octavian?
>
Hrant H. Papazian
> Are you sure the page difference is not due to the
> typesetting and layout?
Yes. I saw the Fleurons, and they certainly
were not set at 36 point or something!
It could be that many of the large illustrations have
been dumped. And maybe technically that's not "abridged"...
> I'm putting my two best detectives on the case.
Thanks!
> I have the digital font.
Cool. Could you set a PDF in it or something?
Or alternatvely an Illustrator/EPS doc with "convert to outlines"?
Although that would get large for any decent amount of text.
hhp
Hrant H. Papazian
> The two on-campus books I found are missing, and the
> others (that Phan pointed out) are off-campus.
I had found and just got a second copy (from the "stacks") of one
of those missing books (Tarling's "Will Carter, Printer"). Besides
being a pretty nice work, it has an inset of a page set in Octavian,
as well as three glyph enlargements ("e", "m" and "T").
The sample's printing is on a darkish tan, somewhat rough paper,
and the impression (reproduction?) itself looks rough (obscuring
some detail), so I'm not sure how accurate this is, but:
The type looks slightly too dark*, but is remarkably readable.
Most notable is that although the setting is extremely tight,
it stays totally functional. This is certainly largely due to
the tightness of the forms themselves, but also the moderate
stroke contrast, as well as the intelligence of the shapes.
The enlargements show high craftsmanship (no surprise), and
the "m" in particular shows the fantastic balance of tradition
and function that pervades the whole philosophy of the design.
* This might actually bode well for the [existing] digital version!
hhp
Roy Preston
half a million urls, and we have to pay for our on-line time. Most grateful
for any help. A url if pos?
Roy P(ays for it)
Hrant H. Papazian
> Does anyone have any info on Eye Magazine (UK)?
Geez, another strange coincidence: last night I looked at
an issue of Eye seriously for the first time. I was impressed
most by the body face, Proforma; I had heard of it, but never
seen it up close en masse. It's a highly capable but nonetheless
an essentially progressive design by Petr van Blokland.
It's impressive that it's Petr first
release (mid-80s), but he hasn't done
a face since! :-(
Anyway, I don't have any issues of Eye myself, so I can't
give you any leads. And you're right about the web confusion
concerning Eye. I couldn't even get the super-clever
http://www.google.com to find anything good.
Just wait for Phan. :-)
hhp
Michael Scarpitti
Michael Scarpitti
Tamye Riggs
> I think this's it:
>
> http://www.eyemag.com/
>
> --- Roy Preston <pre...@LDS.CO.UK> wrote:
> > Does anyone have any info on Eye Magazine (UK)? The
> > search engines throw up
> > half a million urls, and we have to pay for our
> > on-line time. Most grateful
> > for any help. A url if pos?
> >
> > Roy P(ays for it)
http://www.eyemag.com/ is based in Greensboro, NC, US. I did a search at
Network Solutions and came up with eyemagazine.com, which is registered to
Quantum Publishing Ltd, in Surrey, UK. More info available from the search
results page at
http://www.networksolutions.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois/?STRING=eyemagazine.com. Goi
ng to http://www.eyemagazine.com produces a page with info from
NetNames.com, topped by a headline that reads:
"This Domain Name is registered and is currently not pointed towards a web
site belonging to our client."
I think this is the right publication. I didn't find any real useful
references to the EYE (UK) publication in searching through AltaVista, no
website hidden under another domain.
Hope this helps.
Soggily yours in Maryland,
Tamye
Tamye Riggs | GarageFonts
14605 Sturtevant Road | Silver Spring, MD 20905
tel 301-879-6955 | fax 301-879-0606
mailto:ta...@garagefonts.com | http://www.garagefonts.com
tobytyler
> Meanwhile, I'm putting my two best detectives on the case.
Make sure they don't end up as "Qwerty" did, digitized and
affiliated with some questionable characters, mumbling of
the apocalypse
Toby
(finally found the book a couple of weeks ago :-)
Rodolfo Capeto
> Geez, another strange coincidence: last night I looked at
> an issue of Eye seriously for the first time. I was impressed
> most by the body face, Proforma; I had heard of it, but never
> seen it up close en masse. It's a highly capable but nonetheless
> an essentially progressive design by Petr van Blokland.
>
> It's impressive that it's Petr first
> release (mid-80s), but he hasn't done
> a face since! :-(
What about Prolinea, Deforma, VijfZeven?
R
___________________________________________________________________
rodolfo capeto
rca...@nc-rj.rnp.br
Nguyen, Phan
>
to is obviously not the same Eye magazine. Eye is published in the UK by
Quantum Publishing, as Tamye correctly pointed out.
Eye was started by Rick Poynor in 1990, who also served as its editor. Under
Poynor's direction, Eye was my absolute favorite graphic design magazine,
the only one I even bothered to subscribe to (despite its price) and to
read.
In an interview with Steven Heller in Print magazine, Poynor briefly
explained his intentions for starting the magazine:
'Looking at Britain's design magazines in the 1980s, I saw a number of
superficial monthlies but nothing in the established genre of the
international graphic design review...My approach was to say, "Let's create
a graphic design magazine which is as good as the best art magazine we know
and takes very seriously the standards of mainstream journalism." Critical
journalism has become the term I use to describe what I was trying to do
with Eye.'
For the most part, the articles in Eye were serious, not superficial. It
followed the more meaningful current trends, but took an analytical approach
to them rather than a sensational one. There was a lot of critical theory,
while maintaining a firm footing in the real world, while it reported on
graphic design both as the means to an end and as a culture in itself.
Although Eye mostly covered the current state of graphic design, it always
had a strong reference to history, particularly in the roots of modernism.
A regular 'Archive' section gave attention to innovations otherwise
forgotten or dismissed, such as Tom Phillips's _A Humument_ or Robert
Harling's pre-WWII _Typography_ magazine.
I think the crux of Eye's coverage was the tensions of modernism and
postmodernism in the ongoing evolution of graphic design.
Poynor stepped down as editor in 1997, in a sense because he felt the
exciting design innovations that occurred during the magazine's start had
subsided and has become the watered-down norm.
Max Bruinsma took over as editor, and since then, it seems like Eye is
trying to be the graphic design world's equivalent of Wired. Bruinsma seems
too willing to sensationalize the new technology and the untapped modes of
communication, coding his enthusiasm in wordy graphic design mumbo jumbo
that just totally loses me.
I haven't kept up with Eye since. And I don't think any current graphic
design periodical has even attempted to fill its shoes.
Nguyen, Phan
>
> Cool. Could you set a PDF in it or something?
> Or alternatvely an Illustrator/EPS doc with "convert to outlines"?
> Although that would get large for any decent amount of text.
>
Roy Preston
>seen it up close en masse.
Ahhh! Proforma. What a *beautiful* face, Hrant. I first saw it (the Light
version) in Haagse Letters. It has a whiff of Quadraat about it. Those
Dutch again -- the swines ;-)
Roy P(raise for Petr)
Hrant H. Papazian
> What about Prolinea, Deforma, VijfZeven?
Where are these?
...
..
.
Michael Scarpitti wrote:
> http://www.petr.nl/asp/page/buro/products/front/e
Got it, thanks.
Michael, it's a shame that most of your
posts are at the opposite end of relevance.
hhp
Laurence Penney
>release (mid-80s), but he hasn't done
>a face since! :-(
Petr designs a new weight or two of Proforma every couple of weeks.
-- Laurence
Hrant H. Papazian
> Petr designs a new weight or two of Proforma
> every couple of weeks.
Cool.
Do you know if he uses RoboFog for
doing that stuff, at least partially?
Plus it seems that Prolinea is also on his plate.
And that's like a year's supply of remoulade! :-)
hhp
Randal
>Does anyone have any info on Eye Magazine (UK)? The search engines throw up
>half a million urls, and we have to pay for our on-line time. Most grateful
>for any help. A url if pos?
>
>Roy P(ays for it)
Personally, I love Eye -- I just wish it didn't cost $18 an issue!
There is apparently no website, but if you are trying to subscribe you can
call +44 181 901 2916.
The British seem to be able to do magazines much better in general than us.
There still seems to be an idea that you can have a journal which
approaches topics seriously and doesn't kowtow to advertisers. "Print" is
good, but it is much more merely an industry rag than Eye.
...and in America we don't have page 3 in our newspapers either!
--Randal
Robin Kinross
> Does anyone have any info on Eye Magazine (UK)?
As list members have found out, there's no website.
Looking at the last-but-one issue (no.32):
the subscription phone number: + 44 (O) 1858 438 872
the subscription fax number: + 44 (O) 1858 434 958
In the UK, the magazine doesn't seem so hard to find on upscale newsstands
and in art bookshops, museums, etc.
The magazine is on its third owner: started by Wordsearch in 1990, who sold
it 1994 to Emap, who in 1997 sold it to Quantum Publishing.
And is on its third editor. Founding editor Rick Poynor stepped down in
1997, to be replaced by Max Bruinsma who was given the push this summer, to
be replaced very recently by John Walters.
The latest issue is just out (no.33), but the ramshackle Quantum Publishing
company hasn't yet sent one to this occasional contributor.
RK
Christopher Cleary
I definitely agree with you on that one Roy. I recommended it to the art director of FHM two years ago and he gave me an everlasting subscription, so now I get to check out the erm... type on a monthly basis.
Christopher Cleary
>There still seems to be an idea that you can have a journal which
>approaches topics seriously and doesn't kowtow to advertisers. "Print" is
>good, but it is much more merely an industry rag than Eye.
>
>...and in America we don't have page 3 in our newspapers either!
>
>--Randal
In that case, you might also like Graphics International. (No page 3 'stunnas' though...)
Richard elGuru[tm] Howland-Bolton
Is that one of those superstitious things, like not having a thirteenth floor?
ibbetson
>
>...and in America we don't have page 3 in our newspapers either!
>
But we do in Canada. Daily in the Toronto Sun.
David Ib
David Ibbetson * 133 Wilton Street * Unit 506 * Toronto M5A 4A4
ibbe...@idirect.com
Phone:(416)363-6692 Cel:(416)831-6692 Fax:(416)363-4987
Roy Preston
regularly -- while working on your info for the members' page, of course ;-)
http://www.lds.co.uk/preston/typo/cart.htm
Roy P(ester, pester)
Gunnar Swanson
>company hasn't yet sent one to this occasional contributor.
The American distributor ran out of the previous issue so I'm still waiting
for that one. I renewed my subscription late and missed the first mailing.
(I've been told that one of my old articles was quoted in it but I don't
know what was said.)
Gunnar
Gunnar Swanson Design Office director, multimedia program
59 North Linden Drive California Lutheran University
Ventura CA 93004-1236 60 West Olsen Road #3900
Thousand Oaks CA 91360-2700
v: +805 647 7000
f: +805 647 7754 v: +805 493 3241
e: gun...@pobox.com e: gswa...@callutheran.edu
Gunnar Swanson
>
I heard they didn't have the Fourth of July in France but nobody noticed
because they took the month off anyway.
Michael Scarpitti
__________________________________________________
Hrant H. Papazian
> (I've been told that one of my old articles was quoted
> in it but I don't know what was said.)
Some article quoted you saying something to the effect of:
"graphic design has no intrinsic pupose of its own; it exists
to elucidate other fields." from an article of yours titled
"Graphic Design Education as a Liberal Art".
If you're having trouble finding that issue,
do you want me to buy you one*? (Since you're
in the area now.)
* Remember, service changes are waived for new customers only.
hhp
Gunnar Swanson
>do you want me to buy you one*? (Since you're
>in the area now.)
Thanks but not yet; I haven't looked for it since they were supposed to be
sending it to me. I need to call Alabama and find out what's happening.
Gunnar
Gunnar Swanson Design Office director, multimedia program
59 North Linden Drive California Lutheran University
Ventura CA 93004-1236 60 West Olsen Road #3900
Thousand Oaks CA 91360-2700
v: +805 647 7000
f: +805 647 7754 v: +805 493 3241