cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes fortunes2-o
Jens Schweikhardt
FreeBSD src repository
Modified files:
games/fortune/datfiles fortunes fortunes2-o
Log:
Move the Hitler quotes and some references to him to the "offensive" file.
I did not bother to sort them all. If you have a script, feel free.
Revision Changes Path
1.181 +0 -78 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes
1.31 +73 -0 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes2-o
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Julian Elischer
> schweikh 2005-08-08 19:58:27 UTC
>
> FreeBSD src repository
>
> Modified files:
> games/fortune/datfiles fortunes fortunes2-o
> Log:
> Move the Hitler quotes and some references to him to the "offensive" file.
> I did not bother to sort them all. If you have a script, feel free.
>
> Revision Changes Path
> 1.181 +0 -78 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes
> 1.31 +73 -0 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes2-o
I object to many of these being moved.
For one, many of them are not by Hitler.
Of thse tha are, many of them show his thoughts in a very
negative and enlightenning way.
I object to this sort of revisionist cleansing.
%
I shall give a propagandist reason for starting the war, no matter whether
it is plausible or not. The victor will not be asked afterwards whether
he told the truth or not. When starting and waging war it is not right
that matters, but victory.
-- Adolf Hitler
This is a brilliant light on the actions of Politicians around the world.
%
What luck for the rulers that men do not think.
-- Adolf Hitler
%
Something we should all think about, and a warning to the future!
Ruslan Ermilov
> schweikh 2005-08-08 19:58:27 UTC
>
> FreeBSD src repository
>
> Modified files:
> games/fortune/datfiles fortunes fortunes2-o
> Log:
> Move the Hitler quotes and some references to him to the "offensive" file.
> I did not bother to sort them all. If you have a script, feel free.
>
> Revision Changes Path
> 1.181 +0 -78 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes
> 1.31 +73 -0 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes2-o
>
Cheers,
--
Ruslan Ermilov
r...@FreeBSD.org
FreeBSD committer
Wilko Bulte
Amen to that. I have not looked into the diff, but the examples you
show above certainly serve as a sobering reminder.
Wilko
--
Wilko Bulte wi...@FreeBSD.org
Poul-Henning Kamp
The real problem with Hitler quotes is that people forget to ask if
any other duly elected politicians think the same way.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Kevin Oberman
> From: Julian Elischer <jul...@elischer.org>
> Sender: owner-...@freebsd.org
Second the motion. Hitler gave people lots of warning of what he was
thinking and what he thought of society that should serve as a warning
to future generations.
Hitler, no matter how much evil he did, was a brilliant manipulator in
an age before modern marketing of political postures. Many of the
techniques he used have been around at least since ancient Greece and
are still in use today. The damage that can (and has) come from this
MUST not be forgotten.
The words at Auschwitz are "Never forget", but in their zeal to bury the
evil Hitler, they often seem bent an making sure that we do. It's not
pleasant history, but it is important history.
On with the bikeshed!
--
R. Kevin Oberman
E-mail: obe...@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634
Wilko Bulte
> The real problem with Hitler quotes is that people forget to ask if
> any other duly elected politicians think the same way.
They don't ask because they don't want to hear the answer. Or already
know the answer deep inside.
--
Wilko Bulte wi...@FreeBSD.org
Nate Lawson
> In message <2005080821...@freebie.xs4all.nl>, Wilko Bulte writes:
>
> The real problem with Hitler quotes is that people forget to ask if
> any other duly elected politicians think the same way.
What amazes me the most is this discussion STARTED with Godwin's Law,
not ended with it.
--
Nate
Peter Schultz
> In message <2005080821...@freebie.xs4all.nl>, Wilko Bulte
> writes:
>
> The real problem with Hitler quotes is that people forget to ask if
> any other duly elected politicians think the same way.
>
That's the point. Someday fortunes2-o may be removed because it is
deemed too controversial to be distributed. Important lessons in
history will be lost.
You want offensive? As far as I'm concerned Jens is trying to
protect his fuhrer.
Ceri Davies
>
> FreeBSD src repository
>
> Modified files:
> games/fortune/datfiles fortunes fortunes2-o
> Log:
> Move the Hitler quotes and some references to him to the "offensive" file.
I object. References to Hitler are not inherently offensive.
As for the quotes, if there was one in there that said "Hey, let's kill a
bunch of Jews" then I'd be with you %100, but I don't believe that the
quotes you moved are offensive either.
Hiding from history is the reason why school children in Britain know that
the second World War was fought against the Nazis, but have no idea where
they came from.
Ceri
--
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former. -- Einstein (attrib.)
Matthew D. Fuller
Ceri Davies, and lo! it spake thus:
>
> I object. References to Hitler are not inherently offensive.
Seconded (or thirded). Even if one _were_ to assume that anything
attributed to Hitler was offensive, why should a perfectly good (if
unattributed) quote from _Starship Troopers_ be moved just because it
mentions him in passing?
--
Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | full...@over-yonder.net
Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/
On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream.
Ceri Davies
> On Mon, Aug 08, 2005 at 07:58:27PM +0000, Jens Schweikhardt wrote:
> > schweikh 2005-08-08 19:58:27 UTC
> >
> > FreeBSD src repository
> >
> > Modified files:
> > games/fortune/datfiles fortunes fortunes2-o
> > Log:
> > Move the Hitler quotes and some references to him to the "offensive" file.
>
> I object. References to Hitler are not inherently offensive.
>
> As for the quotes, if there was one in there that said "Hey, let's kill a
> bunch of Jews" then I'd be with you %100, but I don't believe that the
> quotes you moved are offensive either.
OK, that one about the cooking is.
Tom Rhodes
Peter Schultz <pm...@bis.midco.net> wrote:
> On Aug 8, 2005, at 4:17 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
> > In message <2005080821...@freebie.xs4all.nl>, Wilko Bulte
> > writes:
> >
> > The real problem with Hitler quotes is that people forget to ask if
> > any other duly elected politicians think the same way.
> >
>
> That's the point. Someday fortunes2-o may be removed because it is
> deemed too controversial to be distributed. Important lessons in
> history will be lost.
>
> You want offensive? As far as I'm concerned Jens is trying to
> protect his fuhrer.
>
YOU WILL LEAVE ME OUT OF THIS! :P
(Any warmer on the offensive part?)
--
Tom Rhodes
Jens Schweikhardt
# > schweikh 2005-08-08 19:58:27 UTC
# >
# > FreeBSD src repository
# >
# > Modified files:
# > games/fortune/datfiles fortunes fortunes2-o
# > Log:
# > Move the Hitler quotes and some references to him to the "offensive" file.
#
# I object. References to Hitler are not inherently offensive.
I assume there's no disagrrement about Hitler quotes being offensive.
In Germany they are to almost everyone. So it's good to move them
to the offensive list. Note, they're moved, NOT removed.
Let me cite the three references I moved:
[...] repeated the holy words, "Heil Hitler!"
-- George Lincoln Rockwell
%
If you do this in Germany in public, you're breaking the law.
Anyone calling the greeting "Holy words" is very likely to offend
many people. I have no doubt about this quote's offensiveness.
Moving it is 100% justified.
Hitler used methods against white men in Europe, which by tacit
agreement between the cultural European nations were only to be
used against the coloured.
-- Poul Henningsen [1894-1967]
%
This is clearly racist in my world. I have no doubt about this quote's
offensiveness. Moving it is 100% justified.
Roumanian-Yiddish cooking has killed more Jews than Hitler.
-- Zero Mostel
Comparing Roumanian-Yiddish cooking to what Hitler has done is
ridiculing his victims. Comparisons like this in Germany have put many a
politician out of office for offending many Jews and Germans as well. I
have no doubt about this quote's offensiveness. Moving it is 100%
justified.
# Hiding from history is the reason why school children in Britain know that
# the second World War was fought against the Nazis, but have no idea where
# they came from.
I hide nothing from history. I moved offensive quotes to a different
file, so the easily offended (which includes myself sometimes) have
a chance to read fortunes without quotes from and refs to the monster.
I have now backed up my motives and explained the details. This will
be my only reply in this thread. Please let it die.
Regards,
Jens
--
Jens Schweikhardt http://www.schweikhardt.net/
SIGSIG -- signature too long (core dumped)
Frank Mayhar
> [Idiocy elided.]
Can the change please be backed out? It's clear that the consensus is
against Jens' action, and it's also clear that Jens made his decision
based on his own lack of a sense of irony.
And as far as the Zero Mostel quote, considering that the man was both a
Jew and, I believe, a Yid, anyone who could say that it "ridicules
[Hitler's] victims" just Doesn't Get It.
Sorry, Jens, I was silent through most of this but your reasoning is
specious at best and mostly just plain _wrong_.
--
Frank Mayhar fr...@exit.com http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/
http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/
Poul-Henning Kamp
> Hitler used methods against white men in Europe, which by tacit
> agreement between the cultural European nations were only to be
> used against the coloured.
> -- Poul Henningsen [1894-1967]
> %
>
>This is clearly racist in my world. I have no doubt about this quote's
>offensiveness. Moving it is 100% justified.
If you for a moment disregard the H-word which clearly gets your
knickers in a twist, you will notice that the quote accuses all the
"cultural European nations" of committing crimes against colored
people and of doing so complicitly and knowingly.
That European countries, en-banc were racist until after second
world war is a matter of record, there is no dispute about that.
The quote above is *attacking* that racism, not advocating it.
The first quoute, being as it seems a literal quote from a historical
figure, is no more illegal in Germany than the testimony from they
Nüremberg trials are.
What is banned in Germany is advocacy, history is not banned, and
in particular, teaching history is not banned.
The third one is self-irony, I've heard it myself from Jewish friends
and while that context might missing, it is certainly not offensive
just because it uses the H-word.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Poul-Henning Kamp
>On Tue, 2005-08-09 at 19:24 +0200, Jens Schweikhardt wrote:
>> [Idiocy elided.]
>
>Can the change please be backed out? It's clear that the consensus is
>against Jens' action, and it's also clear that Jens made his decision
>based on his own lack of a sense of irony.
Seconded.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Greg Byshenk
> On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 10:32:08AM +0100, Ceri Davies wrote:
> # On Mon, Aug 08, 2005 at 07:58:27PM +0000, Jens Schweikhardt wrote:
> # > schweikh 2005-08-08 19:58:27 UTC
> # > FreeBSD src repository
> # >
> # > Modified files:
> # > games/fortune/datfiles fortunes fortunes2-o
> # > Log:
> # > Move the Hitler quotes and some references to him to the "offensive" file.
> # I object. References to Hitler are not inherently offensive.
> I assume there's no disagrrement about Hitler quotes being offensive.
> In Germany they are to almost everyone. So it's good to move them
> to the offensive list. Note, they're moved, NOT removed.
I suspect that there is some disagreement even about Hitler quotes, but
I am not going to present a strong argument against moving them.
> Let me cite the three references I moved:
>
> [...] repeated the holy words, "Heil Hitler!"
> -- George Lincoln Rockwell
> %
> If you do this in Germany in public, you're breaking the law.
> Anyone calling the greeting "Holy words" is very likely to offend
> many people. I have no doubt about this quote's offensiveness.
> Moving it is 100% justified.
There plainly is some disagreement about this, as well. But I can
understand why quotes from Rockwell might be offensive to some people.
> Roumanian-Yiddish cooking has killed more Jews than Hitler.
> -- Zero Mostel
> Comparing Roumanian-Yiddish cooking to what Hitler has done is
> ridiculing his victims. Comparisons like this in Germany have put many a
> politician out of office for offending many Jews and Germans as well. I
> have no doubt about this quote's offensiveness. Moving it is 100%
> justified.
And I can understand why someone might find the Mostel quote offensive,
even though Mostel himself was Jewish, taught at the Hebrew Association
in NYC, performed at the benefit for the Emergency Committee to Save the
Jewish People of Europe (in 1944), and narrated "Children of the Exodus",
among other things, and thus it is safe to assume that he was _not_
"ridiculing" the victims of the Holocaust.
> Hitler used methods against white men in Europe, which by tacit
> agreement between the cultural European nations were only to be
> used against the coloured.
> -- Poul Henningsen [1894-1967]
> %
> This is clearly racist in my world. I have no doubt about this quote's
> offensiveness. Moving it is 100% justified.
On the other hand, as has been pointed out already, far from being "clearly
racist", this quote is in fact a condemnation of racism.
> # Hiding from history is the reason why school children in Britain know that
> # the second World War was fought against the Nazis, but have no idea where
> # they came from.
> I hide nothing from history. I moved offensive quotes to a different
> file, so the easily offended (which includes myself sometimes) have
> a chance to read fortunes without quotes from and refs to the monster.
> I have now backed up my motives and explained the details. This will
> be my only reply in this thread. Please let it die.
While some of the cases are at least arguable, in at least one case (the
Henningsen quote) your reasoning is simply _wrong_.
--
greg byshenk - gbys...@byshenk.net - Leiden, NL
Peter Schultz
>
>
> I have now backed up my motives and explained the details. This will
> be my only reply in this thread. Please let it die.
>
Quit trying to protect the image of Germany, it's too late asshole!
The cooking joke is pretty heavy, but put the quotes back that are
valuable history lessons.
In these days of W we need some of these quotes. Put them back now!
Wilko Bulte
> On Aug 9, 2005, at 12:24 PM, Jens Schweikhardt wrote:
> >
> >
> >I have now backed up my motives and explained the details. This will
> >be my only reply in this thread. Please let it die.
> >
> Quit trying to protect the image of Germany, it's too late asshole!
Don't be rude please.
--
Wilko Bulte wi...@FreeBSD.org
Florent Thoumie
> On Aug 9, 2005, at 12:24 PM, Jens Schweikhardt wrote:
> >
> >
> > I have now backed up my motives and explained the details. This will
> > be my only reply in this thread. Please let it die.
> >
>
> Quit trying to protect the image of Germany, it's too late asshole!
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*PlOnK*
--
Florent Thoumie
f...@FreeBSD.org
FreeBSD Committer
Peter Schultz
> On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 02:20:27PM -0500, Peter Schultz wrote..
>
>> On Aug 9, 2005, at 12:24 PM, Jens Schweikhardt wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have now backed up my motives and explained the details. This will
>>> be my only reply in this thread. Please let it die.
>>>
>>>
>> Quit trying to protect the image of Germany, it's too late asshole!
>>
>
> Don't be rude please.
>
I made an example of what it means to be offensive and I am not sorry
for it.
Doug Barton
> I made an example of what it means to be offensive and I am not sorry
> for it.
Then let's be a little more clear. That type of language, and that type of
confrontational behavior, are not acceptable on FreeBSD mailing lists. I
don't care if you're not sorry for it, don't do it again.
Doug
Simon 'corecode' Schubert
>> I have now backed up my motives and explained the details. This will
>> be my only reply in this thread. Please let it die.
> Quit trying to protect the image of Germany, it's too late asshole!
> The cooking joke is pretty heavy, but put the quotes back that are
> valuable history lessons.
>
> In these days of W we need some of these quotes. Put them back now!
I don't know who you are, but I am sure that you are exactly like you
present yourself: ignorant, tactless, impudent and a shame for all
groups of people you might see yourself to be a representative for.
How about getting some clue about foreign cultures and what they see as
an offense. You know that there are *other* countries, right?
All:
I for myself don't want to see any quote that Jens moved back. If I had
a vote, it would go for "remove them". Fortune shouldn't be a good
history lesson replacement (like some seem to imply here).
--
Serve - BSD +++ RENT this banner advert +++ ASCII Ribbon /"\
Work - Mac +++ space for low $$$ NOW!1 +++ Campaign \ /
Party Enjoy Relax | http://dragonflybsd.org Against HTML \
Dude 2c 2 the max ! http://golden-apple.biz Mail + News / \
Doug Barton
> I for myself don't want to see any quote that Jens moved back. If I had
> a vote, it would go for "remove them".
You have better than a vote, you have the source code, from which you are
free to remove any fortune you want, and more power to you.
Regards,
Julian Elischer
> All:
> I for myself don't want to see any quote that Jens moved back. If I had
> a vote, it would go for "remove them". Fortune shouldn't be a good
> history lesson replacement (like some seem to imply here).
Fortune is a collection of small quotes like one might find in
a fortune cookie, that either amuse you or make you think.
I find none of these to be out of character with the original
aim of the file.
I don't see why you find them offensive, though I don't deny you
the right to do so.
Jens Schweikhardt
FreeBSD src repository
Modified files:
games/fortune/datfiles fortunes fortunes2-o
Log:
Be a nice community member and honor the request for backout after
stirring the hornet's nest. This issue will be resolved by core.
Revision Changes Path
1.182 +78 -0 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes
1.32 +0 -73 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes2-o
Wilko Bulte
> schweikh 2005-08-10 17:18:07 UTC
>
> FreeBSD src repository
>
> Modified files:
> games/fortune/datfiles fortunes fortunes2-o
> Log:
> Be a nice community member and honor the request for backout after
> stirring the hornet's nest. This issue will be resolved by core.
Thank you.
--
Wilko Bulte wi...@FreeBSD.org
John Baldwin
> schweikh 2005-08-10 17:18:07 UTC
>
> FreeBSD src repository
>
> Modified files:
> games/fortune/datfiles fortunes fortunes2-o
> Log:
> Be a nice community member and honor the request for backout after
> stirring the hornet's nest. This issue will be resolved by core.
Thank you.
--
John Baldwin <j...@FreeBSD.org> <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/
"Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org
Giorgos Keramidas
>On Aug 9, 2005, at 12:24 PM, Jens Schweikhardt wrote:
>>I have now backed up my motives and explained the details. This will
>>be my only reply in this thread. Please let it die.
>
> Quit trying to protect the image of Germany, it's too late asshole!
That was totally uncalled for. Can we please keep a more civil tone to
the FreeBSD lists?
Tom Rhodes
Giorgos Keramidas <kera...@ceid.upatras.gr> wrote:
> On 2005-08-09 14:20, Peter Schultz <pm...@bis.midco.net> wrote:
> >On Aug 9, 2005, at 12:24 PM, Jens Schweikhardt wrote:
> >>I have now backed up my motives and explained the details. This will
> >>be my only reply in this thread. Please let it die.
> >
> > Quit trying to protect the image of Germany, it's too late asshole!
>
> That was totally uncalled for. Can we please keep a more civil tone
> to the FreeBSD lists?
>
>
Oh come on guys. Some people take matters very seriously. You
all put up with me n'stuff.
Perhaps, as suggested on IRC, A trhodes quotes file? That'll
upset ya. :)
--
Tom Rhodes
David Taylor
> On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 10:32:08AM +0100, Ceri Davies wrote:
> # On Mon, Aug 08, 2005 at 07:58:27PM +0000, Jens Schweikhardt wrote:
> # > schweikh 2005-08-08 19:58:27 UTC
> # >
> # > FreeBSD src repository
> # >
> # > Modified files:
> # > games/fortune/datfiles fortunes fortunes2-o
> # > Log:
> # > Move the Hitler quotes and some references to him to the "offensive" file.
> #
> # I object. References to Hitler are not inherently offensive.
>
> I assume there's no disagrrement about Hitler quotes being offensive.
> In Germany they are to almost everyone. So it's good to move them
> to the offensive list. Note, they're moved, NOT removed.
>
>
> I have now backed up my motives and explained the details.
As pointed out by others, it seems to be more a knee-jerk reaction
to the word "Hitler" (I assume you used grep?) than anything to do
with offence. Enough has already been said on what was wrong with
your back-up...
> This will be my only reply in this thread. Please let it die.
However, I find _this_ offensive. Why should you have the first
(and only) say on the matter? I'm right, I'm not listening, go away?
--
David Taylor
Murray Stokely
FreeBSD src repository
Modified files:
games/fortune/datfiles fortunes fortunes2-o
Log:
Move the "yiddish cooking has killed more jews than Hitler" quote back
to the offensive file.
The other Hitler quotes/references stay in the unoffensive file, as
they offer more historical perspective than this one.
Approved by: core
Revision Changes Path
1.185 +0 -3 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes
1.33 +3 -0 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes2-o