Swedes and character names in strange languages
Sigvald Grøsfjeld jr.
Lately there has been written much about the Disney Character names in
Chinese – and much of this postings is ironically written by Swedes who=
IMO
should clean their own house before taking care of other people's busines=
s.
Ah, I guess I have to explain this above reaction for you. You see, this
topic has triggered some old thoughts and feelings in me. Thoughts and
feelings dating back to the 1970s when I first read the book "Jeg, Mikke
Mus" (=Io Topolino) which contained a list of the names of several Disn=
ey
Characters in various languages. In the Norwegian version of the book the=
se
languages are:
Norwegian, English, French, German, Danish, Italian, Jugoslav(*), Greek,
Japanese and Arabian.
(*) An obvious insult against the readers intelligence as the correct wou=
ld
have been "Serbo-Croatian", just as we speak about "Dutch" not
"Netherlandic" or "Hollandic" and about "Hebrew", not "Israelic".
So, as you can see the list did not include Swedish, Finnish, Dutch,
Spanish, Portuguse or Icelandic names. I still think that list STINKS.
Obviously Norwegian readers would have been much more interested in the
Swedish and Finnish names instead of some Japanese and Arabic rubble they
can't possibly understand (pardon my language) a shit out of. And please
remember that this was way before the age of internet, I.N.D.U.C.K.S., CO=
A
and "Who's who in Duckburg".
The recent discussion here at DCML have now provided a possible explanati=
on
of the missing Swedish names in "Jeg Mikke Mus" and the appearance of the
Japanese and Arabic "rubble" instead. Perhaps the people in the Swedish
redaction by then (in the 1970s) was thinking like some Swedes in DCML of
today – that some Asian "rubble" is as interesting as their own Swedish
names. Well let me just tell all Swedes this: for Norwegian and I bet als=
o
Danish readers of any age, Asian "rubble" is definitely *not* as interest=
ing
as Swedish names!
Anyway, now in the internet-age we Norwegians, Danes and everybody else c=
an
easily find any Swedish Disney Character name we are looking for, so you
Swedes can feel free to concentrate on Chinese or whatever Disney Charact=
er
names you like.
Sigvald :-)
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Christina Hellström
sure if you were including me into the 'Swedes' you mentioned. I have to
say I have a hard time deciphering your message, and I'm not sure if I
got your point. I just wanted to comment on:
Sigvald Grøsfjeld jr. wrote:
>So, as you can see the list did not include Swedish, Finnish, Dutch,
>Spanish, Portuguse or Icelandic names. I still think that list STINKS.
>Obviously Norwegian readers would have been much more interested in the
>Swedish and Finnish names instead of some Japanese and Arabic rubble the=
y
>can't possibly understand (pardon my language) a shit out of. And please
>remember that this was way before the age of internet, I.N.D.U.C.K.S., C=
OA
>and "Who's who in Duckburg".
>
>
RUBBLE?!? I'm sorry, but no, I don't pardon your language (the 'sh*t'
part was the least offencive). And actually, when I was a kid I would
have been much more interested in getting the character's names in
Japanese, Arabic or what have you 'rubble' language than in the Nordic
languages, as even then I had the names for at least some of the main
characters in all Nordic languages (I'm pretty sure they were mentioned
several times in Aku Ankka, but I might be wrong).
--
//Christina - who thinks 'rubble' languages are facinating, especially
the ancient ones... oh, and Klingon!
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Sigvald Grøsfjeld jr.
>> Obviously Norwegian readers would have been
>> much more interested in the Swedish and
>> Finnish names instead of some Japanese and
>> Arabic rubble they can't possibly understand
>> (pardon my language) a shit out of.
>
> I can read and understand the Japanese names...
Aha, and that justifies that Norwegian kids in the 1970s was presented too
that "rubble" in stead of Swedish names?
Sigvald Grøsfjeld jr.
> Well, I'm Finnish, although Swedish is my
> motherthoungue,
And your name look Swedish, just like Nordenskiöld who is mentioned "Th=
e
Crown of The Crusader Kings".
> But I'm not sure if you were including me into
> the 'Swedes' you mentioned.
Yes I included you in the group of "swedes" commenting this topic in DCML=
-
there was no way I could know that you're Finnish. The .fi in your adress
doesen't mean anything here as I have .dk in my adress even though I am
Norwegian.
Anyway, the point is the same as Finnish was also excluded in "Jeg Mikke
Mus". I won't claim there is a line from the 1970's Swedish and Finnish
redaction to modern DCML'ers from the same countries, but other people he=
re
may say so now.
>> Obviously Norwegian readers would have been
>> much more interested in the Swedish and
>> Finnish names instead of some Japanese and
>> Arabic rubble they can't possibly understand
>> (pardon my language) a shit out of.
>
> RUBBLE?!? I'm sorry, but no, I don't pardon
> your language (the 'sh*t' part was the least
> offencive).
Sorry, I didn't intend to be offensive. Please understand that is about s=
ome
two and a half decade old irritation coming up again for me.
> And actually, when I was a kid I would have
> been much more interested in getting the
> character's names in Japanese, Arabic or
> what have you 'rubble' language than in the
> Nordic languages.
OK, maybe kids in Sweden and Finland do learn to read strange alphabets,
signs, hireglyps, etc. Norwegian kids do not - to most Norwegian
non-European alphabets/signs thus look like rubble.
And for your information, Christina: the Greek, Japanese and Arab names w=
as
*not* even written with latin letters in "Jeg Mikke Mus".
Stefan Persson
> Obviously Norwegian readers would have been much more interested in the
> Swedish and Finnish names instead of some Japanese and Arabic rubble th=
ey
> can't possibly understand (pardon my language) a shit out of.
I can read and understand the Japanese names...
Stefan
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Gunnarsson, Joakim SE - HMJ
Sigvald wrote:
> OK, maybe kids in Sweden and Finland do learn to read strange alphabets,
> signs, hireglyps, etc. Norwegian kids do not - to most Norwegian
> non-European alphabets/signs thus look like rubble.
>
As a kid getting that book I thought it was cool "reading" those
mysterious scribbles of letters knowing
they were ment to mean "Mickey Mouse" in a foreign language.
So, even if you don't understand it, you don't have to be against
it. That's my motto in this case.
/Joakim Gunnarsson.
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Sigvald Grøsfjeld jr.
>> As a kid getting that book I thought it was
>> cool "reading" those mysterious scribbles of
>> letters knowing they were ment to mean
>> "Mickey Mouse" in a foreign language. So, even
>> if you don't understand it, you don't have to
>> be against it. That's my motto in this case.
I am *not* against lists of Disney characters' names written with alphabets
or signs other than the latin alphabet - I am only against giving such
information prioriy in front of IMO more realated languages.
Ole Reichstein Nielsen
>I am *not* against lists of Disney characters' names written with alphabets
>or signs other than the latin alphabet - I am only against giving such
>information prioriy in front of IMO more realated languages.
But if you read the text piece that goes along with the character name
list, you will - perhaps - realize the intentions of the list of
corresponding
names being quite the opposite, namely meant to illustrate the variety of
languages, and yet culture- and language-transcending way the Disney
characters speak to us. "I am a duck, and nothing human is foreign to me",
as Cicero almost once said.
The short text goes like this (in the 1978 American Abbeville edition):
<QUOTE> "WALT DISNEY AROUND THE WORLD
The strength of the Disney language - that is, the powerful vein of
subtle humor that runs through his characters, the immediacy and
warmth of their communication, their delightfully human persona-
lities - has been transformed into a universal language and today
his characters are known, esteemed, and admired around the
world. They are present in twenty-four nations and speak seven-
teen different languages. Here, are the names of some of Walt's
chief characters in nine languages." <endQUOTE>
-- Ole
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Lars Jensen
> "Jeg, Mikke Mus" (=Io Topolino) [...] contained a list of the names of
> several Disney Characters in various languages. In the Norwegian
> version of the book these languages are:
> Norwegian, English, French, German, Danish, Italian, Jugoslav(*),
> Greek, Japanese and Arabian.
> (*) An obvious insult against the readers intelligence as the correct
> would have been "Serbo-Croatian", just as we speak about "Dutch" not
> "Netherlandic" or "Hollandic" and about "Hebrew", not "Israelic".
Sigvald, sometimes I think you go around looking for reasons to be
insulted. As a historian, you must know that Yugoslavia in the 1970s was
part of the East Bloc and thus (by Western countries) hardly was
perceived to be a country in its own right. That the book even mentioned
the names in "Yugoslavian", rather than the language of some Western
country, is a small (positive) surprise in itself.
> Perhaps the people in the Swedish redaction by then (in the 1970s) was
> thinking like some Swedes in DCML of today - that some Asian "rubble"
> is as interesting as their own Swedish names. Well let me just tell
> all Swedes this: for Norwegian and I bet also Danish readers of any
> age, Asian "rubble" is definitely *not* as interesting as Swedish
> names!
You'd lose that bet.
I was very interested by Rich Bellacera's list of characters in the
"Disney Character names in Chinese" thread. Looking at it, I see such
favorites of mine as Fethry Duck and Madam Mim are mentioned - implying
(to me, at least) that stories featuring them are being printed in
China. That's *much* more interesting to me than what the name of, say,
Daisy Duck is in Sweden - I already know stories featuring her are being
used all over Scandinavia, so what information could I get out of
knowing her Swedish name?
Personally, I'm puzzled by why you would fault the Swedish editorial
group in the 1970s for something the *Norwegian* editorial group of that
time failed to do - namely include the Swedish names in the Norwegian
edition. Care to explain why?
Also, I'm puzzled by the line you draw from the Swedish 1970s editorial
group to today's Swedish members of the DCML, blaming the latter for the
former's (alleged) mistakes:
> much of this postings is ironically written by Swedes who IMO should
> clean their own house before taking care of other people's business.
As you probably know, the Barks story "Lost in the Andes!" (about the
square eggs) underwent a not-too-well-received second translation when
it was used in the Norwegian 1974 "Jeg, Donald Duck" book. Using your
own logic, I'm going to blame *you* for that fiasco. On behalf of
*serious* Donaldis everywhere I expect to get an apology from you
regarding that mess.
Oh, and calling languages you don't understand "rubble" is utter
nonsense. I don't understand Nepalese, for instance, and I'm still
pretty sure it makes sense if one knows the language!
> I won't claim there is a line from the 1970's Swedish and Finnish
> redaction to modern DCML'ers from the same countries,
And yet, you did.
> but other people here may say so now.
Who, for instance?
Lars
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Sigvald Grøsfjeld jr.
> Sigvald, sometimes I think you go around
> looking for reasons to be insulted.
Or let's say chanses of getting rid of some old irritation.
> As a historian, you must know that Yugoslavia
> in the 1970s was part of the East Bloc...
It was a neutral country, and thus not a part of the Warzaw-pact. It was
however as you correctly a communist country and thus at some will say "the
wrong side of the iron curtain".
> and thus (by Western countries) hardly was
> perceived to be a country in its own right.
> That the book even mentioned the names in
> "Yugoslavian", rather than the language of
> some Western country, is a small (positive)
> surprise in itself.
Or a proof that the Italian redaction was more aware of their neighbouring
countries than Scandinavia.
>> Well let me just tell all Swedes this: for
>> Norwegian and I bet also Danish readers of
>> any age, Asian "rubble" is definitely *not*
>> as interesting as Swedish names!
>
> You'd lose that bet.
Why? Have you asked every Dane or every Norwegian about that???
> I was very interested by Rich Bellacera's list
> of characters in the "Disney Character names
> in Chinese" thread. Looking at it, I see such
> favorites of mine as Fethry Duck and Madam Mim
> are mentioned - implying (to me, at least) that
> stories featuring them are being printed in
> China.
OK, and the lack of a Portuguese or was is a "Spanish" name for Drakeborough
tells me that some readctions haven't published some of Don Rosa's stories
yet. But this is not why I look in such list of Character's names anyway.
> That's *much* more interesting to me than what
> the name of, say, Daisy Duck is in Sweden - I
> already know stories featuring her are being
> used all over Scandinavia, so what information
> could I get out of knowing her Swedish name?
You seem to forget that I was 10-12 years old at the time I first got "Jeg,
Mikke Mus", by then I was very interested to know the Swedish names, but I
didn't have the internet to help me...
> Personally, I'm puzzled by why you would fault
> the Swedish editorial group in the 1970s for
> something the *Norwegian* editorial group of
> that time failed to do - namely include the
> Swedish names in the Norwegian edition. Care
> to explain why?
Just that the interest, shown by people with Swedish names, for Rick's topic
triggered a two and a half decade old irritation of mine.
> Also, I'm puzzled by the line you draw from
> the Swedish 1970s editorial group to today's
> Swedish members of the DCML, blaming the
> latter for the former's (alleged) mistakes:
That was not for offending andybody - it was (I guess) just for justifying
my complaints of the list in a book printed more than 25 years ago.
> As you probably know, the Barks story
> "Lost in the Andes!" (about the square eggs)
> underwent a not-too-well-received second
> translation when it was used in the Norwegian
> 1974 "Jeg, Donald Duck" book. Using your
> own logic, I'm going to blame *you* for that
> fiasco. On behalf of *serious* Donaldists
> everywhere I expect to get an apology from you
> regarding that mess.
You seem to have completely misunderstand my logic.
1) The second Norwegian translation was "a problem" for Norwegians only.
2) I haven't given you any reason to assume I support the attitudes behind
that second translation.
3) In my posting I din't ask anyone to apologize for the missing languages
in "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
> Oh, and calling languages you don't understand
> "rubble" is utter nonsense.
I was *not* calling oher languages "rubble" - I was adressing strange
alphabets and signs *only* as rubble. So if you wrote me a message in Danish
or in English but were using let's say the Arab alphabet I'd seen it as
"rubble" to.
Olaf Solstrand
First, about Serbo-Croatian versus Jugoslavian: As this is NAMES, that can
vary from country to country and not only from language to language (as
Brazilian names may differ a little from Portuguese names and so on), I
don't see any wrong in showing NATIONALITY instead of LANGUAGE here, and
writing "Jugoslav" instead of "Serbo-Croatian": Besides: How many
10-year-olds in 1976 knew the term "Serbo-Croatian"?
> OK, and the lack of a Portuguese or was is a "Spanish" name for
Drakeborough
> tells me that some readctions haven't published some of Don Rosa's stories
> yet. But this is not why I look in such list of Character's names anyway.
...but that is why this list was printed.
(No, I won't explain that any further. Ole wrote an excellent post about
this - read that.)
And I have no idea why you show "Spanish" in quotation marks over here - but
I assume that is related to an old discussion I don't want to know about, so
I won't ask.
> You seem to forget that I was 10-12 years old at the time I first got
"Jeg,
> Mikke Mus", by then I was very interested to know the Swedish names, but I
> didn't have the internet to help me...
I knew kids that also were interested in knowing this - and they got their
answers by sending mail (plain old paper-mail) to Donald Duck & Co.
> Just that the interest, shown by people with Swedish names, for
> Rick's topic triggered a two and a half decade old irritation of mine.
...that's still no explanation to blame Swedish editors for a mistake made
by Norwegian editors - which serving its intention was no mistake at all.
> You seem to have completely misunderstand my logic.
>
> 1) The second Norwegian translation was "a problem" for Norwegians only.
...and the lack of Swedish and Finnish in the Norwegian edition was ALSO a
"problem" for Norwegians only. I sincerely doubt that Italians and Americans
were feeling that something was missing because there was no Swedish names
in their "Io Topolino" books.
> 2) I haven't given you any reason to assume I support the attitudes behind
> that second translation.
Oh - does that mean Stefan and Christina DID give you a reason to assume
they support the attitudes behind leaving out Swedish names in a Norwegian
book? All they did was showing interest for the _Chinese_ names! Are you
saying that when someone is showing interest for a distant language, that
means they despite their own language - and wants to keep that out of
foreign books? And, concidering this was a discussion about Chinese names,
should people have told Rich "shut up, we're not interested"?
> 3) In my posting I din't ask anyone to apologize for the missing languages
> in "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
No, but you certainly blamed all Swedes for this.
> I was *not* calling oher languages "rubble" - I was adressing strange
> alphabets and signs *only* as rubble.
1) That did NOT show from your first post - it seemed obvious that you were
refering to the languages themselves.
2) How is that better? You insulted all the users of a set of signs. How
would you react if someone called the latin alphabet "rubble"?
> > BTW, in the Swedish book the names in the
> > Norwegian "rubble" language have been replaced
> > by names in Swedish.
>
> Why can't read what I writes before making jokes out of it? What I called
> "rubble" was the arab alphabet and Asian signs - *not* any spoken
language.
> So what you are doing here can be seen as insulting all Norwegians here.
Not those of us who understand irony.
Olaf
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Lars Jensen
skip it, if you're not interested in me taking apart Sigvald's
arguments.
Sigvald wrote:
>> As a historian, you must know that Yugoslavia
>> in the 1970s was part of the East Bloc...
>
> It was a neutral country, and thus not a part of the Warzaw-pact.
Let's just agree this is off-topic.
>>> Well let me just tell all Swedes this: for
>>> Norwegian and I bet also Danish readers of
>>> any age, Asian "rubble" is definitely *not*
>>> as interesting as Swedish names!
>>
>> You'd lose that bet.
>
> Why? Have you asked every Dane or every Norwegian about that???
No. But then, I didn't have to. You said you'd "bet" Danish readers were
not as interested in Asian "rubble" as in Swedish names. Which meant,
you tried to speak for me (amongst others). I am a Danish reader, and I
*am* more interested in the Asian names than in the Swedish ditto. Which
contradicts your line about all Danes sharing your opinion. And makes
you lose that bet.
>> I was very interested by Rich Bellacera's list
>> of characters in the "Disney Character names
>> in Chinese" thread. Looking at it, I see such
>> favorites of mine as Fethry Duck and Madam Mim
>> are mentioned - implying (to me, at least) that
>> stories featuring them are being printed in
>> China.
>
> OK, and the lack of a Portuguese or was is a "Spanish" name for
> Drakeborough tells me that some readctions haven't published some of
> Don Rosa's stories yet. But this is not why I look in such list of
> Character's names anyway.
But that is sometimes why *I* look at such lists. You tried to speak for
every Norwegian and Dane. I'm saying that in my case you were wrong.
>> That's *much* more interesting to me than what
>> the name of, say, Daisy Duck is in Sweden - I
>> already know stories featuring her are being
>> used all over Scandinavia, so what information
>> could I get out of knowing her Swedish name?
>
> You seem to forget that I was 10-12 years old at the time I first got
> "Jeg, Mikke Mus", by then I was very interested to know the Swedish
> names, but I didn't have the internet to help me...
No, I didn't "forget". This part of the discussion is about whether you
have the knowledge to speak on others' behalf, not whether you
personally are interested in Swedish character names.
>> As you probably know, the Barks story
>> "Lost in the Andes!" (about the square eggs)
>> underwent a not-too-well-received second
>> translation when it was used in the Norwegian
>> 1974 "Jeg, Donald Duck" book. Using your
>> own logic, I'm going to blame *you* for that
>> fiasco. On behalf of *serious* Donaldists
>> everywhere I expect to get an apology from you
>> regarding that mess.
>
> You seem to have completely misunderstand my logic.
>
> 1) The second Norwegian translation was "a problem" for Norwegians
> only.
Just as the use of Japanese and Arab names in "Jeg, Mikke Mus" seems to
have been a problem for you only. I certainly haven't seen any other
Norwegian members of DCML chime in with their criticism.
> 2) I haven't given you any reason to assume I support the attitudes
> behind that second translation.
Just as the Swedish members of DCML (and Christina) haven't given you
any reason to assume they support the attitudes behind the use of
Japanese and Arab names in "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
> 3) In my posting I din't ask anyone to apologize for the missing
> languages in "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
You only asked Swedish members of DCML to "clean their own house before
taking care of other people's business". You're right. You should be
apologizing to the Swedes, rather than to me. My mistake.
> I was *not* calling oher languages "rubble" - I was adressing strange
> alphabets and signs *only* as rubble.
My mistake again. Your use of the word "languages" lead me to believe
you were talking about languages, when in fact you had meant to use the
word "alphabets". Honestly, Sigvald, it would be much easier discussing
these things with you if you used the correct words.
As for whether it's OK to call "strange" alphabets and signs "rubble",
I'm going to leave others to address that.
Although, you *do* realize that Sweden has two characters in their
alphabet (ä and ö) which don't appear in the Norwegian one, right?
Doesn't this make the Swedish alphabet "rubble"? Which, according to
you, means it should be kept out of "Jeg, Mikke Mus" - which of course
it was...
Lars
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Sigvald Grøsfjeld jr.
> First, about Serbo-Croatian versus Jugoslavian:
> As this is NAMES, that can vary from country to
> country and not only from language to language
> (as Brazilian names may differ a little from
> Portuguese names and so on), I don't see any
> wrong in showing NATIONALITY instead of
> LANGUAGE here, and writing "Jugoslav" instead
> of "Serbo-Croatian".
Well, I like things to be correct.
> Besides: How many 10-year-olds in 1976 knew the
> term "Serbo-Croatian"?
I don't know, but I do know taht they would have learned it if that word had
been used in "Jeg, Mikke Mus" together with an explanation that it was the
language spoken in Jugoslavia.
Or do you think they also could have written "Sovjetisk" in stead of
"Russisk"?
> ....but that is why this list was printed.
Even though that list was printed to show that Disney comics is printed
around the world I don't see that as any excuse for leaving out the Swedish
names in the Norwegian book, and the other way around in the Swedish book.
> And I have no idea why you show "Spanish" in
> quotation marks over here
Just a mistake from me - sorry!
>> You seem to forget that I was 10-12 years old
>> at the time I first got "Jeg, Mikke Mus", by
>> then I was very interested to know the Swedish
>> names, but I didn't have the internet to help
>> me...
>
> I knew kids that also were interested in
> knowing this - and they got their answers by
> sending mail (plain old paper-mail) to Donald
> Duck & Co.
Bah!!! I once mailed Anders And & Co in order to get a Danish name for one
of Don Rosa's stories - I have never got any answer!
Besides I don't see that as any excuse for leaving out the Swedish names in
the Norwegian book, and the other way around in the Swedish book.
> I sincerely doubt that Italians and Americans
> were feeling that something was missing because
> there was no Swedish names in their "Io
> Topolino" books.
So what? I was concerning about Scandinavian children here, not Italians,
Americans or any other non-Scandinavians.
> 2) I haven't given you any reason to assume I
> support the attitudes behind that second
> translation.
>
> Oh - does that mean Stefan and Christina DID
> give you a reason to assume they support the
> attitudes behind leaving out Swedish names in
> a Norwegian book?
Ecactly - tehy did show the same entusiasm for "exotic" languages as I guess
the editors of "Jeg, Mikke Mus" did.
> And, concidering this was a discussion about
> Chinese names, should people have told Rich
> "shut up, we're not interested"?
No, that was why I ended my posting by saying that they could continue their
debate as I can help myself by now via the Internet. My whole intention of
that posting was to tell everbod about my opinions about the missing Swedish
names in "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
> 3) In my posting I din't ask anyone to
> apologize for the missing languages in
> "Jeg, Mikke Mus".
>
> No, but you certainly blamed all Swedes for
> this.
That was just a stupid joke in order to get attention.
> I was *not* calling oher languages "rubble"
> - I was adressing strange alphabets and signs
> *only* as rubble.
>
> 1) That did NOT show from your first post - it
> seemed obvious that you were refering to the
> languages themselves.
OK, I am sorry for that!
> 2) How is that better? You insulted all the
> users of a set of signs. How would you react
> if someone called the latin alphabet "rubble"?
Asuming we are talking about an educated adult person here, I guess I would
would think the same as as if someone appeard to be total unfamiliar with
other international standards as: the metric system, the Celsius temperature
scale, the Gregorian calendar, the Arabic siphres*, etc. I would would have
wondered how that person could have missed such important knowledge. yes I
know Americans and the British are using inches, feet, Fahreheit, etc., but
they still know about the other standards.
* the siphres 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9 as written in wester'n style.
Sigvald Grøsfjeld jr.
> No. But then, I didn't have to. You said you'd
> "bet" Danish readers were not as interested in
> Asian "rubble" as in Swedish names. Which meant,
> you tried to speak for me (amongst others). I
> am a Danish reader, and I *am* more interested
> in the Asian names than in the Swedish ditto.
> Which contradicts your line about all Danes
> sharing your opinion. And makes you lose that
> bet.
No, because I didn't use the waor "all". "Danish readers" is *not* the sa=
me
as "all Danish readers" it's more like "most Danish readers".
Anyway this dispute doesen't lead anyway so why not drop it here.
>> OK, and the lack of a Portuguese or was is a
>> Spanish name for Drakeborough tells me that
>> some readctions haven't published some of
>> Don Rosa's stories yet. But this is not why
>> I look in such list of Character's names
>> anyway.
>
> But that is sometimes why *I* look at such
> lists.
Well then both types of readers should be respected by the publisher.
> You tried to speak for every Norwegian and Dane.
No, just for most Norwegians and Danes.
> Just as the use of Japanese and Arab names
> in "Jeg, Mikke Mus" seems to have been a
> problem for you only.
Bah!! That's only because noone else have botthered to complain.
> I certainly haven't seen any other Norwegian
> members of DCML chime in with their criticism.
No why should they - I have spoken for them, besides this is not a proble=
m
anymore as we have the Internet today, so I guess they don't bother.
> Just as the Swedish members of DCML (and
> Christina) haven't given you any reason to
> assume they support the attitudes behind the
> use of Japanese and Arab names in "Jeg, Mikke
> Mus".
Oh, yes they have indeed. By showing such interest for Rich's topic that =
is.
But to not offend anyone I did add the last lines to my message in where =
I
wrote that thanks to the internet those interested in Swedish names can h=
elp
them selves while the Swedes and Finns are discussing Chinese names with
Rich.
> You only asked Swedish members of DCML to
> "clean their own house before taking care of
> other people's business".
That was only a stupid joke in order to get attention.
> Honestly, Sigvald, it would be much easier
> discussing these things with you if you used
> the correct words.
You're right about that.
> Although, you *do* realize that Sweden has two
> characters in their alphabet (ä and ö) which
> don't appear in the Norwegian one, right?
Correct!
> Doesn't this make the Swedish alphabet "rubble"?
> Which, according to you, means it should be
> kept out of "Jeg, Mikke Mus" - which of course
> it was...
No, I have never had any problems with those two characters - and IMO the=
y
are a part of the Latin alphabeth just like our own æ and å, the Germ=
an ü,
etc. Norwegian and Danish kids unfamiliar with those letters would have n=
o
problems finding someone to help explaining those characters for them.
For the outsiders I can add that (ä = æ and ö = ø) so the way=
the letters
look in the Scandinavian languages is the only difference. For example: i=
n
Norwegian Text-TV the swedish variants are often used instead of the
Norwegian ones.
Stefan Persson
> Well, I like things to be correct.
According to the ISO 639-1 and 639-2 standards, Serbian and Croatian are
two different languages. I've understood that they are very closely
related, though---much more closely related than e.g. Swedish and Norwegi=
an.
> Bah!!! I once mailed Anders And & Co in order to get a Danish name for =
one
> of Don Rosa's stories - I have never got any answer!
And what if you had sent your mail to Donald Duck & Co instead...?
> That was just a stupid joke in order to get attention.
It did not look like that.
> Asuming we are talking about an educated adult person here, I guess I w=
ould
> would think the same as as if someone appeard to be total unfamiliar wi=
th
> other international standards as: [...] the Celsius temperature
> scale,
SI only defines kelvin, not centigrades.
> * the siphres 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9 as written in wester'n style.
You mean the numerals?
Stefan
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Stefan Persson
> Well then both types of readers should be respected by the publisher.
Then you would end up having to include every name for every character
in every language, which would require WAY too much space in the book.
> Bah!! That's only because noone else have botthered to complain.
Which is probably because there's no need for complaints.
> Oh, yes they have indeed. By showing such interest for Rich's topic tha=
t is.
We have only stated that we are interested in Chinese names, not
anything else. I find it interesting with the Japanese names, but would
have preferred some kind of transcription of the Arabic names,
preferrably in IPA or Japanese.
> That was only a stupid joke in order to get attention.
It did not look like that.
> No, I have never had any problems with those two characters - and IMO t=
hey
> are a part of the Latin alphabeth just like our own æ and å, the Ge=
rman ü,
> etc. Norwegian and Danish kids unfamiliar with those letters would have=
no
> problems finding someone to help explaining those characters for them.
The Latin ALPHABET only includes characters used in Latin language. The
last three letters in the Swedish, Norwegian and Danish alphabets are
part of the Latin SCRIPT, though.
> For the outsiders I can add that (ä = æ and ö = ø) so the w=
ay the letters
> look in the Scandinavian languages is the only difference.
"Ä" and "æ" are different characters, just like "ö" and "ø" are
different. The fact that they are pronounced the same way, share the
same origin & are coded the same way in Morse code is unimportant. "Ö"=
and "ø" may both appear in the same text---for example, in a Swedish
text about you, "ø" would be used for writing your name, while "ö" wo=
uld
be used everywhere else. Thus, they are different characters.
> For example: in
> Norwegian Text-TV the swedish variants are often used instead of the
> Norwegian ones.
Some language versions of MS-DOS do not include "æ" and "ø" but only =
"ä"
and "ö." This might be the reason to Text-TV using Swedish
characters---Text-TV might be limited to some ancient character set.
Stefan
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Sigvald Grøsfjeld jr.
> According to the ISO 639-1 and 639-2 standards,
> Serbian and Croatian are two different
> languages.
Yes, because today they are spoken in two separate nations. The difference
is mostly that Croatian is written with Latin letters while Serbian is
written with Cyrillic letters.
AFAIK one of the main reasons behind the Croatia-war in the early 1990's was
that the local Serbs, supported by Milosevic's regime in Serbia, refused the
Croatian president Franjo Tudjman's orders to switch over to the Latin
alphabet in order to make the new Croatia look more homogenous.
>> Bah!!! I once mailed Anders And & Co in
>> order to get a Danish name for one of Don
>> Rosa's stories - I have never got any answer!
>
> And what if you had sent your mail to Donald
> Duck & Co instead...?
Why should I ask them about a Danish topic?
>> That was just a stupid joke in order to get
>> attention.
>
> It did not look like that.
I am very sorry that I am not that good with jokes.
> SI only defines kelvin, not centigrades.
Exactly, that was why I had to add "Celsius system" to the line.
>> * the siphres 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9 as
>> written in wester'n style.
>
> You mean the numerals?
Yes.
Sigvald Grøsfjeld jr.
>> Well then both types of readers should be
>> respected by the publisher.
>
> Then you would end up having to include every
> name for every character in every language,
> which would require WAY too much space in the
> book.
Not true! If that 10 language list had been expanded with 2 (Swedish and
Finnish) or 4 (
Swedish, Finnish, Dutch and Spanish) languages I would have been satisfie=
d.
> "ö" and "ø" may both appear in the same text
> -- for example, in a Swedish text about you,
> "ø" would be used for writing your name, while
> "ö" would be used everywhere else.
Not necesarrily. I have an uncle living in Gothenburg writing our familyn=
ame
with and "ö" like this: Grösfjeld. My father have also done so from t=
ime to
time as he once worked at Bofors. So if my name is to be mentioned in a
Swedish magazine like "NAFSK-kuriren" you should feel free to use your o=
wn
"ö" if you like.
> Some language versions of MS-DOS do not include
> "æ" and "ø" but only "ä" and "ö".
I guess that's because those characters are included in teh German alphab=
et
as well. Otherwise it would have looked as an insult by Microsoft against
Norwegians and Danes.
Stefan Persson
> Not true! If that 10 language list had been expanded with 2 (Swedish an=
d
> Finnish) or 4 (
> Swedish, Finnish, Dutch and Spanish) languages I would have been satisf=
ied.
Read what you wrote:
> Well then both types of readers should be
> respected by the publisher.
> Not necesarrily. I have an uncle living in Gothenburg writing our famil=
yname
> with and "ö" like this: Grösfjeld. My father have also done so from=
time to
> time as he once worked at Bofors. So if my name is to be mentioned in a
> Swedish magazine like "NAFSK-kuriren" you should feel free to use your=
own
> "ö" if you like.
Writing it with an "ö" would be wrong. The fact that the "ø" charact=
er
is not included in the Swedish keyboard drivers for Windows and DOS as
well as in some UNIX keyboard drivers is irrelevant.
> I guess that's because those characters are included in teh German alph=
abet
> as well. Otherwise it would have looked as an insult by Microsoft again=
st
> Norwegians and Danes.
It still is: IBM (not Microsoft) included "å" but not "æ" or "ø".
Stefan
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Stefan Diös
Stefan P:
> > According to the ISO 639-1 and 639-2 standards,
> > Serbian and Croatian are two different
> > languages.
I'm sure this happened after the separation of Croatia from Yugoslavia.
Before that, "Serbo-Croatian" was one of the official languages of that u=
nion.
Which I find quite interesting. I read somewhere that the difference
between a dialect and a separate language often is purely political, not
linguistic. This makes a lot of sense to me. Picking a nearby example,
inhabitants of some regions of Sweden speak dialects so thick that other
Swedes sometimes even claim not to understand them. But it is still Swedi=
sh
for sure - up to the day when one of those regions breaks away to form a
new, independent country. Which, I might add, doesn't seem very probable =
in
the near future, even though a small number of more or less serious
extremists do exist.
But if it does happen, that new country will immediately adopt the name o=
f
the former dialect as their official language. They might even, in time,
decide to spell some words differently to further show their independence=
.
Other than that, there will obviously be no difference at all in the way
the language is used, especially when spoken. Maybe this is a little bit
like how it happened in Croatia and Bosnia-H, for example?
Another off-topic topic recently discussed: My surname is correctly spell=
ed
with an Ö, that is, Diös, with the O with the dots. But that letter u=
sually
didn't go through very well internationally. I don't even know if all
recipients of this list can read it (or if they care). I do know that som=
e
of my E-mail correspondents don't receive it, but some code instead. So I=
normally drop the dots whenever writing my name in an international
context, like below:
Stefan Dios
Malmo, Sweden
_______________________________________________
http://stp.ling.uu.se/mailman/listinfo/dcml
Christina Hellström
>
> Christina Hellström <chel...@iki.fi> wrote:
>
> > Well, I'm Finnish, although Swedish is my
> > motherthoungue,
>
The
> Crown of The Crusader Kings".
Our names look Swedish because they are Swedish, meaning the language not
the country. Finland has two official languages, Finnish and Swedish, wit=
h
Swedish being the minority language of about 6%. Although one cannot 100=
%
derrive the motherthoungue from the name, both I and A.E. Nordenskiöld
have/had Swedish as our motherthongue. The most internationally famous
(still alive) Swedish speaking Finn would probably be Linus Torvalds of
Linux fame. :)
> Anyway, the point is the same as Finnish was also excluded in "Jeg Mikk=
e
> Mus". I won't claim there is a line from the 1970's Swedish and Finnish
> redaction to modern DCML'ers from the same countries, but other
> people here may say so now.
????
> And for your information, Christina: the Greek, Japanese and Arab
> names was
> *not* even written with latin letters in "Jeg Mikke Mus".
And why should they have been? Of course, in addition, some pronounciatio=
n
guide in latin letters would be nice, but I certainly would rather have t=
he
original lettering than any latin letter version of the same.
Oh, and thanks to Rich Bellacera for the Chinese names and Stefan Petters=
on
for the Japanese names! I really do appreciate them!
--
//Christina Hellström
http://www.geocities.com/chellstr/
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Sigvald Grøsfjeld jr.
> And your name look Swedish, just like
> Nordenskiöld who is mentioned in "The
> Crown of The Crusader Kings".
>
> Our names look Swedish because they are
> Swedish, meaning the language not the country.
I guess those names are Swedish because some of your ancestors moved to
Finland a long time ago. However AFAIK unlike many other minorities aroun=
d
the world (Cyprus, etc.) you see yourselves as Finns not as Swedes and is
thus not demanding your own state, etc. Thus there is no etnic conflicts =
in
Finland as is known from other places in he world. I guess explanations f=
or
that is that you share the same alphabeth, the same religious faith, etc.
and even that both languages are understood by most of the population.