I've combed the detailed release notes, as well as the API diffs for "accessibility". Nothing appears to have changed.
So now that something is actually out there, is there any possibility that the usual silly strategy of silence can go away, at least with regard to 2.3? I'd like for it to go away entirely, but know that's too much to ask. Have there been any a11y developments that didn't make the release notes for whatever reason? I'd have hoped they would, since that's the first place that both individuals and disability-related media outlets reporting on Android a11y will look. Also, it'd be nice for mainstream folks to know that Android is more accessible in 2.3, just as they could with IOS if they looked.
Hoping that my sinking feeling isn't justified... Please tell me that it isn't. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nolan Darilek" <no...@thewordnerd.info> To: "Eyes-free Android list" <eyes-free@googlegroups.com> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:02 PM Subject: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1
> I've combed the detailed release notes, as well as the API diffs for > "accessibility". Nothing appears to have changed.
> So now that something is actually out there, is there any possibility > that the usual silly strategy of silence can go away, at least with > regard to 2.3? I'd like for it to go away entirely, but know that's too > much to ask. Have there been any a11y developments that didn't make the > release notes for whatever reason? I'd have hoped they would, since > that's the first place that both individuals and disability-related > media outlets reporting on Android a11y will look. Also, it'd be nice > for mainstream folks to know that Android is more accessible in 2.3, > just as they could with IOS if they looked.
> Hoping that my sinking feeling isn't justified... Please tell me that it > isn't. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
> If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already > hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release > for 3.0.
Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it isn't important enough.
So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the desired outcome then rock on. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
It very likely may take a lawsuit. While we can commend Apple all day, that's basically what it took for them to start opening up on iOS accessibility.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nolan Darilek" <no...@thewordnerd.info> To: <eyes-free@googlegroups.com> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:17 PM Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1
> On 12/06/2010 10:05 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: >> If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already >> hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release >> for 3.0.
> Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend > another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
> I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited > about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that > I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the > lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that > *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs > don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it > isn't important enough.
> So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock > and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is > *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers > that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve > its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the > desired outcome then rock on. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
Time for a lawsuit I think. Anyone willing to approach the NFB about the issue? I'm thinking of possibly switching to the IPhone if Verizon gets it if Accessibility doesn't improve on the Android OS. I like the Android OS, but the holes in the accessibility are slowly getting in the way of what I need to be doing. Jordan
-----Original Message----- From: eyes-free@googlegroups.com [mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Nolan Darilek Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 10:18 PM To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 12/06/2010 10:05 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: > If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already > hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release > for 3.0.
Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it isn't important enough.
So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the desired outcome then rock on. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
I also looked through everything, and nothing about accessibility was mentioned. Also, the next google phone was officially announced, the samsung nexus s. I would love to get one of these, but it does not have a hardware keyboard, which means we won't be able to use it. I don't know, I keep debating whether to get an android phone to play with, but I don't know, the lack of improvement to the accessibility API is really giving me second thoughts. On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:02 PM, Nolan Darilek wrote:
> I've combed the detailed release notes, as well as the API diffs for > "accessibility". Nothing appears to have changed.
> So now that something is actually out there, is there any possibility > that the usual silly strategy of silence can go away, at least with > regard to 2.3? I'd like for it to go away entirely, but know that's too > much to ask. Have there been any a11y developments that didn't make the > release notes for whatever reason? I'd have hoped they would, since > that's the first place that both individuals and disability-related > media outlets reporting on Android a11y will look. Also, it'd be nice > for mainstream folks to know that Android is more accessible in 2.3, > just as they could with IOS if they looked.
> Hoping that my sinking feeling isn't justified... Please tell me that it > isn't. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
I agree with everything said here. I was very interested in Android but the lack of web access + the inability to turn accessibility on independently turned me off. I think unfortunately the government will need to get involved also, as 508 compliance is required for government workers.
-----Original Message----- From: eyes-free@googlegroups.com [mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Mike Reiser Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:13 PM To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
I agree with everything said here. I was very interested in Android but the lack of web access + the inability to turn accessibility on independently turned me off. I think unfortunately the government will need to get involved also, as 508 compliance is required for government workers.
I'd be curious what the google engineers have to say about this. Members of the eyes-free team supposedly read this list. Maybe we'll hear something from them. I do think it's disappointing that the web is not going to be accessible in 2.3, especially given the number of apps that use web views. Failing this improvement, it would have been nice to either use the touch screen or read by different units such as words, letters, etc. On 06/12/10 23:49, Ana G wrote:
We know that there is no such thing as free speech for Google
employees, but this time it would be good if they could climb up the
tree and get upper management approval for disclosing their plans for
improved accessibility.
> I've combed the detailed release notes, as well as the API diffs for
> "accessibility". Nothing appears to have changed.
> So now that something is actually out there, is there any possibility
> that the usual silly strategy of silence can go away, at least with
> regard to 2.3? I'd like for it to go away entirely, but know that's too
> much to ask. Have there been any a11y developments that didn't make the
> release notes for whatever reason? I'd have hoped they would, since
> that's the first place that both individuals and disability-related
> media outlets reporting on Android a11y will look. Also, it'd be nice
> for mainstream folks to know that Android is more accessible in 2.3,
> just as they could with IOS if they looked.
> Hoping that my sinking feeling isn't justified... Please tell me that it
> isn't.
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla -http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
A 255 complaint is a lot less expensive and cumbersome than a lawsuit. We have friends like Jamal Mazrui at FCC, maybe we should ask him what may be going on within the regulatory world before clamoring for direct legal action.
Of course, Google, as it doesn't actually make the telecommunications devices or sell anything with Android 2.x installed on it may not actually fall under 255. Complaints under this section in the Telecommunications Act may need to be made against carriers and handset manufacturers as they are actually selling systems with questionable accessibility.
I'm also uncomfortable with the silence/secrecy around future accessibility features that may or may not come to Android. I would hope that Google could be open with information in this area as we have an avid community of hackers who may want to participate in developing access technology for as yet unreleased Android versions and, as accessibility is a right and not actually a competitive advantage, it would behoove Google, handset manufacturers and carriers to work with the community, the volunteers, research organizations, universities and all of the collected world of AT hackers who, if given the chance, would work to make Android accessibility sing.
While Google's secrecy disturbs me, Apple, is downright pathological about anything that may happen in its future. Of course, Apple doesn't claim to be "open" in any way and doesn't tend to invite participation in alpha and beta software development so can't be expected to do anything in pre-release products if they don't want to.
Happy Hacking, cdh
Christian Hofstader Director/Access Technology Free Software Foundation/Project GNU
> It very likely may take a lawsuit. While we can commend Apple all day, that's basically what it took for them to start opening up on iOS accessibility.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nolan Darilek" <no...@thewordnerd.info> > To: <eyes-free@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:17 PM > Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1
>> On 12/06/2010 10:05 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: >>> If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already >>> hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release >>> for 3.0.
>> Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend >> another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
>> I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited >> about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that >> I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the >> lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that >> *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs >> don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it >> isn't important enough.
>> So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock >> and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is >> *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers >> that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve >> its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the >> desired outcome then rock on. >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) >> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>> -- >> For Android accessibility documentation, click on this link: >> http://eyes-free.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/documentation/android_acces... >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "eyes-free" group. >> To post to this group, send email to eyes-free@googlegroups.com >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> eyes-free+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/eyes-free?hl=en?hl=en
Curtis Chong, NFB guy most involved in technology issues, is quite aware of accessibility issues on a whole lot of different mobile phone platforms including Android.
One problem with a lawsuit targeting Android accessibility is that it is at least somewhat accessible in a bunch of places which can be demonstrated as a good faith early effort. Meanwhile, Microsoft and Palm have no plans announced for providing accessibility on Windows Phone 7 or Palm Prix and RIM/Blackberry has just started building an in-house accessibility team and is probably at least 18-24 months from anything resembling real accessibility. I don't know what is going on with Nokia/Symbian but would assume that they will continue with a "bolt on" approach with software from Code Factory, Nuance or elsewhere. Microsoft will probably have some sort of bolt on solution at some point in the future although activists are trying to push for an out-of-the-box solution like iPhone and Android.
To some extent, accessibility advocates/activists have given Android a free pass by developing so many self voicing and other open accessibility solutions for it. As MS did with Code Factory and other third party software, Android vendors may be able to point to all of the "eyes free" and other interesting and useful aftermarket applications as their accessibility solution and dodge a regulatory bullet. This is really quite sad as our friends in this area are in a lose/lose situation: if we develop accessibility solutions, we discourage Google and others from doing so as we provide the hall pass to Section 255 compliance without causing them or the other Android vendors to do, say or spend very much if anything to comply; simultaneously, if we do not build cool and accessible programs, we need to wait for what seems like an uninterested vendor community to do so either voluntarily or through some sort of regulatory or other legal motivation which can keep us locked out of a system for a really long time.
Happy Hacking, cdh
Christian Hofstader Director of Access Technology Free Software Foundation/Project GNU
On Dec 6, 2010, at 11:33 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
> Time for a lawsuit I think. Anyone willing to approach the NFB about the > issue? I'm thinking of possibly switching to the IPhone if Verizon gets it > if Accessibility doesn't improve on the Android OS. I like the Android OS, > but the holes in the accessibility are slowly getting in the way of what I > need to be doing. > Jordan
> -----Original Message----- > From: eyes-free@googlegroups.com [mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On > Behalf Of Nolan Darilek > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 10:18 PM > To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1
> On 12/06/2010 10:05 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: >> If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already >> hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release >> for 3.0.
> Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend > another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
> I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited > about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that > I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the > lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that > *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs > don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it > isn't important enough.
> So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock > and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is > *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers > that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve > its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the > desired outcome then rock on. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
> -- > For Android accessibility documentation, click on this link: > http://eyes-free.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/documentation/android_acces... > .html > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "eyes-free" group. > To post to this group, send email to eyes-free@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > eyes-free+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/eyes-free?hl=en?hl=en
Section 508 does apply here but 255 of the Telecommunications Act has sharper teeth in this situation. Also, regulations in Europe and some other locales are much stronger than in the US so our friends in the EU may be more effective than we can be in the US. On Dec 7, 2010, at 12:12 AM, Mike Reiser wrote:
> I agree with everything said here. I was very interested in Android but the lack of web access + the inability to turn accessibility on independently turned me off. I think unfortunately the government will need to get involved also, as 508 compliance is required for government workers.
Thanks. You said what I've been saying much more succinctly than could I.
The sad thing is that I know of at least 3 AT companies who'd be willing to put people and/or money behind making Android more accessible, my current employer included. I can't speak of other intentions for various reasons, but given the time and money constraints of other companies compared to someone like Google, the general concensus is that we'd rather work *with* Google to create something rather than waste the money of donors or other investors on a solution that will just be discarded in six months because it isn't part of the platform, or on something that will have to be maintained as a platform fork for the blind.
Also, I understand that there'd be some benefit in developing alternate solutions in parallel, but there are several problems with this approach. Chief among them is that the accessibility development community outside of the Google veil of secrecy is pretty small. AFAICT, it's me working on Spiel, Peter working on the vOICe, and others working on their own little islands. In a year of Spiel development, there have been no code contributions, and all I've gotten from third parties are translations. There just isn't the developer community to support parallel development, or to support all this separation and secrecy, not even from within Google if the rate of perceived progress is any indication. Sure, maybe I *could* develop a better-than-Ideal browser and other solutions if there were 48 hours in a day, and if I were doing this stuff because it was what I wanted to do, but I develop mobile apps because I actually want to live a better life as a result, and that's hard to do if the entirety of that life is spent developing complimentary solutions on my own that I'll either be stuck maintaining indefinitely, or that will be trumped by platform support that no one knew was coming. Then I've just wasted six months of my life. No thanks!
I think that we've all poked enough holes in this strategy as to show that it clearly isn't working. I recognize that things are generally always done this way, but if we do things as we always have then we'd still be living in caves, if even that. We're not precisely because, one by one, people have decided to do things differently. Will that actually happen here?
> A 255 complaint is a lot less expensive and cumbersome than a lawsuit. We have friends like Jamal Mazrui at FCC, maybe we should ask him what may be going on within the regulatory world before clamoring for direct legal action.
> Of course, Google, as it doesn't actually make the telecommunications devices or sell anything with Android 2.x installed on it may not actually fall under 255. Complaints under this section in the Telecommunications Act may need to be made against carriers and handset manufacturers as they are actually selling systems with questionable accessibility.
> I'm also uncomfortable with the silence/secrecy around future accessibility features that may or may not come to Android. I would hope that Google could be open with information in this area as we have an avid community of hackers who may want to participate in developing access technology for as yet unreleased Android versions and, as accessibility is a right and not actually a competitive advantage, it would behoove Google, handset manufacturers and carriers to work with the community, the volunteers, research organizations, universities and all of the collected world of AT hackers who, if given the chance, would work to make Android accessibility sing.
> While Google's secrecy disturbs me, Apple, is downright pathological about anything that may happen in its future. Of course, Apple doesn't claim to be "open" in any way and doesn't tend to invite participation in alpha and beta software development so can't be expected to do anything in pre-release products if they don't want to.
> Happy Hacking, > cdh
> Christian Hofstader > Director/Access Technology > Free Software Foundation/Project GNU
> On Dec 6, 2010, at 11:19 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote:
>> It very likely may take a lawsuit. While we can commend Apple all day, that's basically what it took for them to start opening up on iOS accessibility.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nolan Darilek" <no...@thewordnerd.info> >> To: <eyes-free@googlegroups.com> >> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:17 PM >> Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
> On 12/06/2010 10:05 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: >>>>> If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already >>>>> hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release >>>>> for 3.0.
> Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend > another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
> I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited > about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that > I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the > lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that > *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs > don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it > isn't important enough.
> So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock > and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is > *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers > that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve > its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the > desired outcome then rock on.
>> -- >> For Android accessibility documentation, click on this link: >> http://eyes-free.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/documentation/android_acces... >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "eyes-free" group. >> To post to this group, send email to eyes-free@googlegroups.com >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> eyes-free+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/eyes-free?hl=en?hl=en
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
> nd: Thanks. You said what I've been saying much more succinctly than could I.
cdh: Thanks, I've been involved in the battle for mobile phone accessibility for nearly a dozen years in different capacities going back to the first versions of Talx and Mobile Accessibility, the ones that only spoke pre-recorded words and spelled all words not in their dictionary. It's fairly easy to be somewhat succinct when they have studied a problem to near absolute exhaustion <laugh>.
> nd: The sad thing is that I know of at least 3 AT companies who'd be willing > to put people and/or money behind making Android more accessible, my > current employer included.
cdh: Just curious but, who is your current employer? I'm willing to bet it is definitely not Freedom Scientific as they would fire then sue you for working on Speil and maybe for just posting to this list.
> nd: I can't speak of other intentions for various > reasons, but given the time and money constraints of other companies > compared to someone like Google, the general con census is that we'd > rather work *with* Google to create something rather than waste the > money of donors or other investors on a solution that will just be > discarded in six months because it isn't part of the platform, or on > something that will have to be maintained as a platform fork for the blind.
cdh: The economics of the bolt-on accessibility solutions for mobile phones are really dire these days. I'm not sure how many people would be willing to pay an extra $300 for a screen reader when they can get a really very accessible iPhone for less. Yes, there are all of the problems with AT&T and anyone living in Boston or San Francisco will need two phones: an iPhone for cool features, some other carrier for phone calls <laugh> but, for the most part, VoiceOver is really good on iOS, Apple continues to add accessibility improvements with each upgrade and, as you include, no one on the outside knows how radically the OS may change, hence, how much effort will be required from a third party AT company to keep up, etc.
cdh: Rob Sinclair and the gang up at MS seemed to endorse a bolt-on solution at a meeting they held for blind technology advocates (Curtis Chong sent a statement on this to the NFBCS mailing list a few weeks ago) but may also be feeling a lot of pressure from 255, 508, ADA and state and federal and international regulations of all sorts. There are some on the advocacy side who look at the magnifier included in Vista and Windows 7 and point to the collapse of AI^2 as a bad thing because the pricy ZoomText can't compete with a no cost solution built into the OS which is far less feature rich.
cdh: the question of which is better for the consumer: high priced proprietary bolt-on software laden with features and defects that result from not having the insight of developers on the OS team or AT with fewer features released as free software and largely maintained by the people who make the OS. I, of course, prefer the free software approach and urge Google to fund such extensively but I'm not sure if I actually see this in the cards.
> nd: Chief among them is that the accessibility development > community outside of the Google veil of secrecy is pretty small. AFAICT, > it's me working on Spiel, Peter working on the vOICe, and others working > on their own little islands. In a year of Spiel development, there have > been no code contributions, and all I've gotten from third parties are > translations. There just isn't the developer community to support > parallel development, or to support all this separation and secrecy, not > even from within Google if the rate of perceived progress is any > indication.
cdh: There is Steve Jacobs team which has development funded by Raising the Floor and NPII to work on Android. There may be funding out there for Speil too, write to me offline if you have an interest in pursuing such and I can help you with leads, introductions, access to various NGO around the world who fund accessibility, etc.
> On 12/07/2010 06:43 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: >> A 255 complaint is a lot less expensive and cumbersome than a lawsuit. We have friends like Jamal Mazrui at FCC, maybe we should ask him what may be going on within the regulatory world before clamoring for direct legal action.
>> Of course, Google, as it doesn't actually make the telecommunications devices or sell anything with Android 2.x installed on it may not actually fall under 255. Complaints under this section in the Telecommunications Act may need to be made against carriers and handset manufacturers as they are actually selling systems with questionable accessibility.
>> I'm also uncomfortable with the silence/secrecy around future accessibility features that may or may not come to Android. I would hope that Google could be open with information in this area as we have an avid community of hackers who may want to participate in developing access technology for as yet unreleased Android versions and, as accessibility is a right and not actually a competitive advantage, it would behoove Google, handset manufacturers and carriers to work with the community, the volunteers, research organizations, universities and all of the collected world of AT hackers who, if given the chance, would work to make Android accessibility sing.
>> While Google's secrecy disturbs me, Apple, is downright pathological about anything that may happen in its future. Of course, Apple doesn't claim to be "open" in any way and doesn't tend to invite participation in alpha and beta software development so can't be expected to do anything in pre-release products if they don't want to.
>> Happy Hacking, >> cdh
>> Christian Hofstader >> Director/Access Technology >> Free Software Foundation/Project GNU
>> On Dec 6, 2010, at 11:19 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote:
>>> It very likely may take a lawsuit. While we can commend Apple all day, that's basically what it took for them to start opening up on iOS accessibility.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nolan Darilek" <no...@thewordnerd.info> >>> To: <eyes-free@googlegroups.com> >>> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:17 PM >>> Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
>> On 12/06/2010 10:05 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: >>>>>> If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already >>>>>> hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release >>>>>> for 3.0.
>> Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend >> another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
>> I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited >> about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that >> I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the >> lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that >> *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs >> don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it >> isn't important enough.
>> So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock >> and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is >> *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers >> that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve >> its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the >> desired outcome then rock on.
>>> -- >>> For Android accessibility documentation, click on this link: >>> http://eyes-free.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/documentation/android_acces... >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "eyes-free" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to eyes-free@googlegroups.com >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> eyes-free+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/eyes-free?hl=en?hl=en
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
> cdh: Just curious but, who is your current employer? I'm willing to bet it is definitely not Freedom Scientific as they would fire then sue you for working on Speil and maybe for just posting to this list.
The National Braille Press. I'm working to help create the Braille Wizard (http://braillewizard.org), a completely open (source and hardware specs) Braille display and Android device.
Our big issue is that I'm the only Android developer on staff, the only paid employee on this project for that matter, and AFAIK being paid by donors and grants received for the Wizard project. If we could actually focus those efforts in a unified direction with someone else then that'd be best, since if I have to develop platform accessibility hooks before working on other project components, then this thing will never get done. But I just spent a lot of breath telling my boss to hold off and see what 2.3 brought to the table, and today we've both looked at the changelog and have concluded that it amounts to nothing.
> cdh: The economics of the bolt-on accessibility solutions for mobile phones are really dire these days. I'm not sure how many people would be willing to pay an extra $300 for a screen reader when they can get a really very accessible iPhone for less. Yes, there are all of the problems with AT&T and anyone living in Boston or San Francisco will need two phones: an iPhone for cool features, some other carrier for phone calls <laugh> but, for the most part, VoiceOver is really good on iOS, Apple continues to add accessibility improvements with each upgrade and, as you include, no one on the outside knows how radically the OS may change, hence, how much effort will be required from a third party AT company to keep up, etc.
Right, and then there's the problem of inclusion. It's nice that there are 4-5 accessible apps that partially fill in the gaps, but they perfectly support my point. WebReader is not good, and I don't waste my time with it any longer. It doesn't correctly handle password fields, its gestures are unintuitive and complicated, and the UI for changing them is unfriendly and doesn't work for me half the time. It fails at a number of very basic web tasks, all of which have been brought up here. Apps for the blind will never be as featureful as their stock counterparts. Furthermore, they're boring as hell to write. I'd personally rather write cool Android apps than a faster, scriptable Android screen reader. Likewise, I'd rather write cool web apps than a browser for the blind.
> cdh: There is Steve Jacobs team which has development funded by Raising the Floor and NPII to work on Android. There may be funding out there for Speil too, write to me offline if you have an interest in pursuing such and I can help you with leads, introductions, access to various NGO around the world who fund accessibility, etc.
I've taken Spiel about as far as I can given platform limitations, so there isn't much more to be done there, and NBP funded its development for several months. Even so, I don't want to keep chipping away on my island. I want to work *with* others on this problem, since this won't be solved by people working in parallel.
I've tried approaching Steve privately and publically to volunteer collaboration, but have been ignored. I even wrote a blog post calling out him and others (http://thewordnerd.info/2010/09/11/down-with-the-accessibility-ivory-...), and when Mike Calvo pointed the post out to Steve, he commented back demanding to know what I've contributed. Since replying with the rather extensive list, he hasn't said anything. I don't know why this pseudo-classism exists, and what you have to do to get taken seriously in this field. But every single open source project to which I've contributed seems appreciative of my contributions, except for any related to Android accessibility. Here, you get ignored, or treated like something someone wiped off their shoe after a night in the dog park. It's like there's this whole somewhat sane open source world, and then this little enclave where none of the rules apply and everyone chugs away and doesn't care about working with anyone else toward a common goal. If I seem overly angry, it's because I feel like the only sane one in this sanitarium. If you don't like me for that, know that I'm probably going away soon anyway. There's only so much effort I'm willing to expend on advocating for this, or arguing for it, but if folks who can make a difference *see* it backfiring and aren't willing to change, then there's just nothing else for it. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
-----Original Message----- From: eyes-free@googlegroups.com [mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Chris Hofstader Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 6:43 AM To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
A 255 complaint is a lot less expensive and cumbersome than a lawsuit. We have friends like Jamal Mazrui at FCC, maybe we should ask him what may be going on within the regulatory world before clamoring for direct legal action.
Of course, Google, as it doesn't actually make the telecommunications devices or sell anything with Android 2.x installed on it may not actually fall under 255. Complaints under this section in the Telecommunications Act may need to be made against carriers and handset manufacturers as they are actually selling systems with questionable accessibility.
I'm also uncomfortable with the silence/secrecy around future accessibility features that may or may not come to Android. I would hope that Google could be open with information in this area as we have an avid community of hackers who may want to participate in developing access technology for as yet unreleased Android versions and, as accessibility is a right and not actually a competitive advantage, it would behoove Google, handset manufacturers and carriers to work with the community, the volunteers, research organizations, universities and all of the collected world of AT hackers who, if given the chance, would work to make Android accessibility sing.
While Google's secrecy disturbs me, Apple, is downright pathological about anything that may happen in its future. Of course, Apple doesn't claim to be "open" in any way and doesn't tend to invite participation in alpha and beta software development so can't be expected to do anything in pre-release products if they don't want to.
Happy Hacking, cdh
Christian Hofstader Director/Access Technology Free Software Foundation/Project GNU
On Dec 6, 2010, at 11:19 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote:
> It very likely may take a lawsuit. While we can commend Apple all day, that's basically what it took for them to start opening up on iOS accessibility.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nolan Darilek" <no...@thewordnerd.info> > To: <eyes-free@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:17 PM > Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1
>> On 12/06/2010 10:05 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: >>> If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already >>> hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release >>> for 3.0.
>> Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend >> another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
>> I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited >> about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that >> I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the >> lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that >> *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs >> don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it >> isn't important enough.
>> So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock >> and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is >> *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers >> that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve >> its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the >> desired outcome then rock on. >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) >> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
Since carriers are the ones customizing Android to meet their branding, this may not be a bad thing, to go after carriers that is, at least as a starting point. Let's not forget to submit comments for the 21st Century Accessibility Act either, since there appears to be some coverage of web access on smart phones there.
Joe
"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
[mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jordan Gallacher Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 2:39 PM To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
Bad news is that the FCC said that that they will only go after carriers the last time I contacted them about accessibility issues. Jordan
-----Original Message----- From: eyes-free@googlegroups.com [mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Hofstader Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 6:43 AM To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
A 255 complaint is a lot less expensive and cumbersome than a lawsuit. We have friends like Jamal Mazrui at FCC, maybe we should ask him what may be going on within the regulatory world before clamoring for direct legal action.
Of course, Google, as it doesn't actually make the telecommunications devices or sell anything with Android 2.x installed on it may not actually fall under 255. Complaints under this section in the Telecommunications Act may need to be made against carriers and handset manufacturers as they are actually selling systems with questionable accessibility.
I'm also uncomfortable with the silence/secrecy around future accessibility features that may or may not come to Android. I would hope that Google could be open with information in this area as we have an avid community of hackers who may want to participate in developing access technology for as yet unreleased Android versions and, as accessibility is a right and not actually a competitive advantage, it would behoove Google, handset manufacturers and carriers to work with the community, the volunteers, research organizations, universities and all of the collected world of AT hackers who, if given the chance, would work to make Android accessibility sing.
While Google's secrecy disturbs me, Apple, is downright pathological about anything that may happen in its future. Of course, Apple doesn't claim to be "open" in any way and doesn't tend to invite participation in alpha and beta software development so can't be expected to do anything in pre-release products if they don't want to.
Happy Hacking, cdh
Christian Hofstader Director/Access Technology Free Software Foundation/Project GNU
On Dec 6, 2010, at 11:19 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote:
> It very likely may take a lawsuit. While we can commend Apple all day, that's basically what it took for them to start opening up on iOS accessibility.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nolan Darilek" <no...@thewordnerd.info> > To: <eyes-free@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:17 PM > Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1
>> On 12/06/2010 10:05 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: >>> If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already >>> hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release >>> for 3.0.
>> Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend >> another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
>> I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited >> about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that >> I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the >> lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that >> *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs >> don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it >> isn't important enough.
>> So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock >> and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is >> *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers >> that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve >> its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the >> desired outcome then rock on. >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) >> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
-- For Android accessibility documentation, click on this link: http://eyes-free.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/documentation/android_ access/index .html You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "eyes-free" group. To post to this group, send email to eyes-free@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to eyes-free+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/eyes-free?hl=en?hl=en
-- For Android accessibility documentation, click on this link: http://eyes-free.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/documentation/android_ access/index.html You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "eyes-free" group. To post to this group, send email to eyes-free@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to eyes-free+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/eyes-free?hl=en?hl=en
Well, in the US carriers are the primary vendors of both hardware and software in the mobile phone arena. Sure, you can buy something directly from HTC or LG or whomever but all of the good deals involve some sort of contract with a carrier. I'd prefer they go for all involved but, if I had to pick one from OS, handset or carrier, it would definitely be the third as they do the system integration and deliver the final product to the overwhelming majority of users.
HH, cdh On Dec 7, 2010, at 2:39 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
> Bad news is that the FCC said that that they will only go after carriers the > last time I contacted them about accessibility issues. > Jordan
> -----Original Message----- > From: eyes-free@googlegroups.com [mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On > Behalf Of Chris Hofstader > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 6:43 AM > To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
> A 255 complaint is a lot less expensive and cumbersome than a lawsuit. We > have friends like Jamal Mazrui at FCC, maybe we should ask him what may be > going on within the regulatory world before clamoring for direct legal > action.
> Of course, Google, as it doesn't actually make the telecommunications > devices or sell anything with Android 2.x installed on it may not actually > fall under 255. Complaints under this section in the Telecommunications Act > may need to be made against carriers and handset manufacturers as they are > actually selling systems with questionable accessibility.
> I'm also uncomfortable with the silence/secrecy around future accessibility > features that may or may not come to Android. I would hope that Google could > be open with information in this area as we have an avid community of > hackers who may want to participate in developing access technology for as > yet unreleased Android versions and, as accessibility is a right and not > actually a competitive advantage, it would behoove Google, handset > manufacturers and carriers to work with the community, the volunteers, > research organizations, universities and all of the collected world of AT > hackers who, if given the chance, would work to make Android accessibility > sing.
> While Google's secrecy disturbs me, Apple, is downright pathological about > anything that may happen in its future. Of course, Apple doesn't claim to be > "open" in any way and doesn't tend to invite participation in alpha and beta > software development so can't be expected to do anything in pre-release > products if they don't want to.
> Happy Hacking, > cdh
> Christian Hofstader > Director/Access Technology > Free Software Foundation/Project GNU
> On Dec 6, 2010, at 11:19 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote:
>> It very likely may take a lawsuit. While we can commend Apple all day, > that's basically what it took for them to start opening up on iOS > accessibility.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nolan Darilek" > <no...@thewordnerd.info> >> To: <eyes-free@googlegroups.com> >> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:17 PM >> Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>> Hash: SHA1
>>> On 12/06/2010 10:05 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: >>>> If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already >>>> hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release >>>> for 3.0.
>>> Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend >>> another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
>>> I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited >>> about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that >>> I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the >>> lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that >>> *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs >>> don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it >>> isn't important enough.
>>> So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock >>> and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is >>> *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers >>> that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve >>> its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the >>> desired outcome then rock on. >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) >>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
> -- > For Android accessibility documentation, click on this link: > http://eyes-free.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/documentation/android_acces... > .html > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "eyes-free" group. > To post to this group, send email to eyes-free@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > eyes-free+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/eyes-free?hl=en?hl=en
Hopefully it will not come to law suits, people are too quick to use that approach, and while it may bring results, it can cause other problems as well. On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:33 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
> Time for a lawsuit I think. Anyone willing to approach the NFB about the > issue? I'm thinking of possibly switching to the IPhone if Verizon gets it > if Accessibility doesn't improve on the Android OS. I like the Android OS, > but the holes in the accessibility are slowly getting in the way of what I > need to be doing. > Jordan
> -----Original Message----- > From: eyes-free@googlegroups.com [mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On > Behalf Of Nolan Darilek > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 10:18 PM > To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1
> On 12/06/2010 10:05 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: >> If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already >> hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release >> for 3.0.
> Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend > another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
> I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited > about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that > I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the > lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that > *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs > don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it > isn't important enough.
> So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock > and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is > *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers > that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve > its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the > desired outcome then rock on. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
> -- > For Android accessibility documentation, click on this link: > http://eyes-free.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/documentation/android_acces... > .html > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "eyes-free" group. > To post to this group, send email to eyes-free@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > eyes-free+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/eyes-free?hl=en?hl=en
The problem here is that we need to make Google do the accessibility for the entire phone so that we can have a fully usable product right out of the box just like the IPhone. Once a third party gets involved like Code Factory, charge too much for their products of one thing, then what has happened with Windows Mobile and Symbian will most likely happen. Jordan
-----Original Message----- From: eyes-free@googlegroups.com [mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Mike Arrigo Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 7:49 PM To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
Hopefully it will not come to law suits, people are too quick to use that approach, and while it may bring results, it can cause other problems as well. On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:33 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
> Time for a lawsuit I think. Anyone willing to approach the NFB about the > issue? I'm thinking of possibly switching to the IPhone if Verizon gets it > if Accessibility doesn't improve on the Android OS. I like the Android OS, > but the holes in the accessibility are slowly getting in the way of what I > need to be doing. > Jordan
> -----Original Message----- > From: eyes-free@googlegroups.com [mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On > Behalf Of Nolan Darilek > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 10:18 PM > To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1
> On 12/06/2010 10:05 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: >> If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already >> hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release >> for 3.0.
> Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend > another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
> I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited > about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that > I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the > lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that > *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs > don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it > isn't important enough.
> So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock > and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is > *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers > that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve > its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the > desired outcome then rock on. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
Agreed. If a nice way of dealing with the problem cannot be reached, then go for the lawsuit.
I must say I am rather disappointed with no upgrade to the accessibility api. At least there is nothing public about it, and the devs on the list from Eyes-free are very quiet, so I am hoping there is something in the pipeline. I am still excited to see what the "best is yet to come," as I have seen from T.V. Raman. It is just taking time, and unfortunately, I have seen three people opt for other options since I have joined this list back in August. Let's hope this is not a bad sign of things to come.
-----Original Message----- From: Mike Arrigo [mailto:n0...@charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 8:49 PM To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
Hopefully it will not come to law suits, people are too quick to use that approach, and while it may bring results, it can cause other problems as well. On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:33 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
> Time for a lawsuit I think. Anyone willing to approach the NFB about the > issue? I'm thinking of possibly switching to the IPhone if Verizon gets it > if Accessibility doesn't improve on the Android OS. I like the Android OS, > but the holes in the accessibility are slowly getting in the way of what I > need to be doing. > Jordan
> -----Original Message----- > From: eyes-free@googlegroups.com [mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On > Behalf Of Nolan Darilek > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 10:18 PM > To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1
> On 12/06/2010 10:05 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: >> If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already >> hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release >> for 3.0.
> Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend > another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
> I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited > about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that > I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the > lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that > *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs > don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it > isn't important enough.
> So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock > and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is > *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers > that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve > its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the > desired outcome then rock on. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
-----Original Message----- From: eyes-free@googlegroups.com [mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Wil James Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 10:30 PM To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
Agreed. If a nice way of dealing with the problem cannot be reached, then go for the lawsuit.
I must say I am rather disappointed with no upgrade to the accessibility api. At least there is nothing public about it, and the devs on the list from Eyes-free are very quiet, so I am hoping there is something in the pipeline. I am still excited to see what the "best is yet to come," as I have seen from T.V. Raman. It is just taking time, and unfortunately, I have seen three people opt for other options since I have joined this list back in August. Let's hope this is not a bad sign of things to come.
-----Original Message----- From: Mike Arrigo [mailto:n0...@charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 8:49 PM To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
Hopefully it will not come to law suits, people are too quick to use that approach, and while it may bring results, it can cause other problems as well. On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:33 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
> Time for a lawsuit I think. Anyone willing to approach the NFB about the > issue? I'm thinking of possibly switching to the IPhone if Verizon gets it > if Accessibility doesn't improve on the Android OS. I like the Android OS, > but the holes in the accessibility are slowly getting in the way of what I > need to be doing. > Jordan
> -----Original Message----- > From: eyes-free@googlegroups.com [mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On > Behalf Of Nolan Darilek > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 10:18 PM > To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1
> On 12/06/2010 10:05 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: >> If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already >> hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release >> for 3.0.
> Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend > another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
> I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited > about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that > I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the > lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that > *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs > don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it > isn't important enough.
> So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock > and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is > *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers > that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve > its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the > desired outcome then rock on. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
I would certainly love that! I have an iPod Touch 4th Gen, and it's extremely nice to see the screen the wway you can by tracing around the screen with your finger. I refuse to switch to AT&T, so no iPhone for me.
-----Original Message----- From: Jordan Gallacher [mailto:jgallacher1...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 11:33 PM To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
If Google is smart, they will get things to where you can just plain use the touch screen as you could with the IPhone. Jordan
-----Original Message----- From: eyes-free@googlegroups.com [mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Wil James Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 10:30 PM To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
Agreed. If a nice way of dealing with the problem cannot be reached, then go for the lawsuit.
I must say I am rather disappointed with no upgrade to the accessibility api. At least there is nothing public about it, and the devs on the list from Eyes-free are very quiet, so I am hoping there is something in the pipeline. I am still excited to see what the "best is yet to come," as I have seen from T.V. Raman. It is just taking time, and unfortunately, I have seen three people opt for other options since I have joined this list back in August. Let's hope this is not a bad sign of things to come.
-----Original Message----- From: Mike Arrigo [mailto:n0...@charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 8:49 PM To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
Hopefully it will not come to law suits, people are too quick to use that approach, and while it may bring results, it can cause other problems as well. On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:33 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
> Time for a lawsuit I think. Anyone willing to approach the NFB about the > issue? I'm thinking of possibly switching to the IPhone if Verizon gets it > if Accessibility doesn't improve on the Android OS. I like the Android OS, > but the holes in the accessibility are slowly getting in the way of what I > need to be doing. > Jordan
> -----Original Message----- > From: eyes-free@googlegroups.com [mailto:eyes-free@googlegroups.com] On > Behalf Of Nolan Darilek > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 10:18 PM > To: eyes-free@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: So what's new in Gingerbread accessibility?
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1
> On 12/06/2010 10:05 PM, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: >> If this is all true, I may very well jump back to Nokia. I'm already >> hearing Honeycone rumors though so maybe 2.3 is just a holdover release >> for 3.0.
> Yeah, but we heard Gingerbread rumors last May. I'm not ready to spend > another 6-7 months hoping. That's what I've *been* doing.
> I guess that, for me, what it boils down to is that I'm just not excited > about Android anymore. When I started work on Spiel, it was so cool that > I could write my own screen reader. Last May I was disappointed by the > lack of apparent a11y improvement in FroYo, but told myself that > *surely* there'd be something new in Gingerbread. But the changelogs > don't show anything, meaning that either there isn't anything or it > isn't important enough.
> So I dunno. I may be jumping ship to S60 soon as well, that or unlock > and jailbreak an iPhone. Say what you will about what silence is > *supposed* to achieve, but what it *is* achieving is that the developers > that were excited about contributing to this open platform to improve > its accessibility just don't believe in it anymore. And if that's the > desired outcome then rock on. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
