Urgent adviced needed from Alex and Feelers !

[malefeelerfemalealex]

This is my first post. Like all the others members I found finally
piece of mind reading the posts.
So here is my story:
- My girlfriend M (42) is alex and I am a feeler (40). I found that
she is an alex one week ago.
She is my first love and I am his, when I was 12 and she 14 years old
(1982). Life separated us 1 year after (father's job).
Last year (Mai) I discovered that I was married with a Borderline who
cheated on me for the last 5 years with 2 ex-boyfriends. In the middle
of the crisis (June), I found M via Facebook. Story short, she was
looking for me and I was looking for her.
Leaving my BPD wife to go living with M had its difficulties: M live
in France and I in Southamerica (!), and just leaving a BPD is a big
challenge itself ! So I needed to stay a couple of months, before I
finally make the long trip to come to live with M (October).
In this months, via telephone, emails, chat and webcam, M once told me
"I love you", dedicate me a love song, if you come here we will get
married, etc, etc. But I could not come right away (remember I was
11.000 kilometers away and married). In the meantime she found another
ex boyfriend in Facebook (June) who lives in Italy and decided to
visit him as a friend (August) (she did not told me this at that time
at all).
In October I came to Europe and we love each other since then. I could
stay only 3 months as tourist and I searched for a job in order to get
a visa to stay in Europe until I get divorced from my wife. I did not
find one and need to leave Europe.
Back home I discovered that she exchange messages with this italian on
Facebook, and asked who is he. She answered me that he is an ex
boyfriend but now only a friend and that I do not have to worry about
him. A couple of month later, when she went to visit me, she finally
admit that when she visited him they had sex (remember in August)
As a good alex, she told me without any emotions implied :
"I made a mistake and voila", "I know I should not do that", "I regret
this since I made it", "I did not tell you, because if I did it you
will leave me", "I have enough with my self-consciousness" etc. etc.
I as a feeler, you will know how I felt then and now. When she said
this things, does she really meant this, or she said only what she
learned to be said in this cases to calm me down ?
I know that this can not be counted as a real cheating, because we
were not together at that point in time, but.... (deeply I say for
myself: How you can tell me at the phone that you love me and travel
to have sex with another...)
I love her, she love me. And we want to live the rest of our lives
together. This is not a question.
But I need to be sure that she is really sorry about what she did, but
I think I will never know, because she will never understand how
another person really feel when someone cheated on him, while she has
no empathy.... I am sure she thinks today "I do not know why you make
from this such a big deal, it was only sex, I do not love my ex..."

- I want to leave also other questions for the feelers:

Do you feel also jealous like me as your alex can express herself/
himself so nice describing with passion the things he/she loves (to
dance for example) and when it comes to talk with you he/she does not
do it with the same passion ?

How do you feelers react when your alex says something that hearts
you ? I really do not know how to react, and she never noticed when
she said things that hearts me, even if I explained to her what it
was. It ends in discussions everytime it happens...



I want to thank deeply from my heart in advance ANY comment that you
can leave, from alexs and feelers. Because ONLY YOU can understand
what I am dealing with !

To update the love story, I can stay 1 month more with my beloved M,
but then I have to go back to my country, not knowing when and how we
will see each other again... We have to wait until I get divorced (but
my BPD wife do not want to) or until I finally find a job to stay
legally in Europe.

(please apologize my English mistakes !)

[sparx104]

I can't offer much help - I'm definitely not a "feeler". However,
from my perspective you must talk to her - tell her how much it upset
you. Even if she can't "feel"/empathise she should be able to
recognise that it's something that has upset you - but don't resort to
using emotional terms - saying it "hurt inside" is going to mean
nothing to someone who has no idea what "hurt inside" means [this
seems to be the fundamental problem with communication - what is
common experience to "normal" people has no meaning or the wrong
meaning to someone with alex - it seems to be very difficult to get
people to understand that there is anything other than "normal" - I
guess to them there isn't(*1)]

I know that in my case I do things which appear to upset people
without knowing why (reasoning: they don't upset me so I can't see
that they would anyone else). However, once the person explains to me
why it was upsetting I will try my hardest to not do it again - it's
all a learning process which is made much harder when then offended
party won't explain the problems.

Actually, I notice you've mentioned things ending in discussions -
this is probably going to happen a lot... You're probably going to
get a lot "further ahead" by discussing things - I know that I don't
appear to experience shame/guilt etc (properly, or at all - I'm not
sure yet), but I can *understand* them via discussing them. [It's
ironic that I probably know the most about the psychology of emotions
out of all the people I know but cannot experience them]

Personally, I would have considered what she did cheating - not enough
to end anything but certainly enough for you to tell her that it's not
something you'll accept. I know I've had problems in the past where
people have not been straight with me - if I've done something which
has upset someone I want them to tell me, immediately and in no
uncertain terms. You don't say if you've told her that she upset you
doing that but I'd probably say you should - she's probably not going
to figure it out for herself and if you explain it in detail she'll
probably be able to understand why it upset you. The old adage that
"communication is key to a healthy relationship" is probably going to
be more important with her.

Frankly, if she loves you she should want you do be happy and not to
upset you - you just need to explain to her *how* to not upset you - I
know I'd have gone to ends of the earth for the girl I loved, but she
wasn't willing to talk.

Whether she chooses to try to make those changes should probably give
you some idea of what the outcome's likely to be.

Good luck.

PS. sorry if a) any of this comes across as being an arse - I'm not
trying to be, b) anything is totally off topic or c) any thing is
total crap. I've been drinking. Also, more-or-less of that may
related to AS vs. Alex so may go a bit further than needed.

(*1) see Plato's Allegory of the Cave

On Jul 16, 8:28 am, malefeelerfemalealex <claudiosch...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[malefeelerfemalealex]

Hi sparx104,

thanks a lot for your answer. It really helped me.

Regarding the cheating, I have of course talked to her and she told me
she will never do that again. She told me that when she is with
someone, she has never cheated and will never do. That brings me peace
of mind, but anyway, it is disturbing that she can not see what or why
this is such a deal for me !

Regarding the discussions, they ONLY happen when she says something
that hurts me, I (of course like any feeler) react feeling sad and
angry, and telling her that it hurts me. She can not see/feel what
does she said to hurt me, even if I explained it to her. As I do not
become this feedback needed, both end all the time dissapointed.
The worst thing is that this discussions "shuts her down" and make her
forget all the nice times that we spend together, making her think
that she will be better alone (I know that for alex seems to be more
easy the breakups). I am afraid that at some point she will want to
end all because of this "misunderstandings".
Because of that, yesterday I had a conversation with her. I told her
that this discussions will not dissapear in the future, or may be they
will, but I can not be sure about that. Maybe it is a matter of time,
knowing each other, I dont know. But if we want to stay together, we
have to face that this discussions will not disappear and that we have
to learn to live with them, remembering everytime the wonderful
moments that we enjoy beside the discussions.

As far as I know, the other men that she had in her life were
completely different as I am, maybe alexs or just with lack of
empathy. That is why she also is surprised about my reactions/
emotions. She never faced a feeler in all her life !!

Thank you again for your advices. You did not say anything that hurts
in anyway.

A couple of questions:

Do you have more advices, besides communication ?
Do alexs say I am sorry ? Do alexs start, after a discussion, the
reconciliation ? Or they will wait always the other side to be
"friends" again ?
Do you express your emotions better when it apply on a
"thing" (dancing, hearing music, etc)? It confuses me the fact taht
she can show emotions talking about SOMETHING she love (ballet dancing
for example) but not about SOMEONE she love (me!!).

Thanks again !

PS: I would like to know your gender, if that does not offend you
(just joking, I know that probably nothing offend an alex !) That
brings another question: Do alexs feel offended by something ? I think
you can tell them anything, and they will not take it personal in
anyway !!

[sparx104]

Starting from the bottom:

I'm male (& 31 if that's relevant). In my case I certainly don't get
offended - this is often a cause of trouble as it doesn't generally
occur to me that others will be offended either - hence saying the
wrong things. This was something she noticed whilst we were together
(and you mentioned above) - I do not get "sulky" etc. after an
argument. Once the argument is over I will try to extract information
from the discussion to use in the future and then return to "normal" -
I guess it does come across as possibly not caring? or something like
that. But in reality the argument has served it's purpose and is over
- I never stopped loving her because of arguments.

As for reconciliation - the above probably gets in the way - there is
nothing to "reconcile". Opinions have been voiced, a conclusion
reached and, presumably, acted on or will be. As far as I was
concerned it was over. It appeared to upset her (she always "started"
the arguments - my mistakes upset her = I just tried to understand any
she made) so I'd try to undo the upset - to do things she liked or try
to distract her/talk about better times. Again, this is all stuff I
have so little experience in it's probably wrong.

I'm not really sure about expressing emotions about things vs.
people. I have problems with "emotions" to do with anything - person
or object. The only thing I can think of is that there are perhaps
less negatives with "things"? Also, I think that interpersonal stuff
and material stuff are processed differently in the brain which may
have some effect.

Saying "sorry" is something I've wondered about in the past. There's
a long thread here: http://groups.google.com/group/exchange-forum/browse_thread/thread/a74dfff2d16c4ed1?hl=en

I *do* say sorry (a lot) as it appears to "work". However I don't
really understand the "meaning". If I've done something to upset
someone then I will "feel" bad and be upset that I've upset them. I
will then attempt everything I can to undo it or to "make it up to
them". I do not "feel" "sorry" (I guess this is a lack of "feeling"
remorse?) but since upsetting people is very wrong to me I avoid it -
in short, I can *be* sorry but not *feel* sorry.

Something I have learned through research into social issues and AS (I
don't know how relevant this is to her): if she upsets you and doesn't
realise explain exactly what she did, how bad it's made you feel and
why is has done that. Then tell her what she needs to do to avoid it
again or "undo" it. Also, since you're not going to get any/much
emotional response if you need to then tell her that you need to be
away from her for a short while - but reassure her that it's OK and
maybe arrange to see her as soon as you can. As you say, she won't
understand *why* you're upset so reassure her that it'll be OK in the
end. In my case the confusion involved caused great stress with
regards to the relationship and whether it should continue. Does she
know she's alex? If she's willing to "accept" it and work with you
another way to deal with the discussions side of things is that if
she's upset you just tell her that you're upset and need time to calm
down. When you've reduced the emotions you're feeling arrange to have
the discussion.

As for the misunderstandings - a large part of why I'm alone again as
due to that (along with several other problems on her side - it ended
up being mutual). You must make it very clear to her, and make sure
that she understands that she's not to end it because of them. Or, if
she does don't take it as absolute - once she's "calmed" down she'll
probably see she shouldn't walk away. Although I don't "feel"
emotions I still appear to have the "arousal" - stress, panic etc.
which come with them - this can mean I make decisions based on very
flawed information. If she's the same then she's likely to make rash
decisions that she knows were wrong when she calms down and can think
clearer - this may have contributed to her cheating.

If she's willing to learn then yes, the longer you're together the
"easier" it'll be - she'll be able to learn what upsets you and avoid
that simply because she knows, even if she doesn't know why - that's
how I "work" anyway - "rules" for everything. And whilst the
"breaking up" might be "easier" - less emotional? based on logic? what
has followed for me has certainly not been - being with her was the
happiest I've ever "felt". This now is the worst.

One last thing: if you were suddenly dropped into an orchestra on
opening night and told to play you'd be confused, "scared" and have no
idea what to do but know that you could screw things up. To those of
us who've never experienced emotions (either properly or at all) it's
much the same situation - confusing, and with "rules" and such that
make little sense to us but do to everyone else, whist all we can do
is screw them up...

Again, good luck. I realise now that love is all that matters in the
end...









On Jul 17, 8:24 am, malefeelerfemalealex <claudiosch...@gmail.com>
wrote:

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