Stephen Hawking: Philosophy is Dead - Everything List

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Message from discussion Stephen Hawking: Philosophy is Dead
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Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 16:01:13 -0400
Message-ID: <CAOzTjtzutVQ4i1-xSi3sg17fq0w-VPt86Fex4Yrs19U9_L5...@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stephen Hawking: Philosophy is Dead
From: John Mikes <jami...@gmail.com>
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
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Bruno, thanks for your 'views' expressed to Evgeniy below.
*"...**Why people believe..."  *I think we agreed that no such thing in our
access as a Theory of Everything (omniscience missing) and the figments
scientists believe IN are fables.
I apologize for writing in brief *"Nature"* and not as I usually do: "the
existence, nature, the world, you name it..." and for *'humans'* in a
similar sense, abbreviated from something like: "the portion of the
infinite complexity we have actually  conscious access to..." (and I am not
sure if 'we' - 'you? - have access to all details of other Loebian machines
or jumping bugs how THEY exercise mental functions akin to our thinking in
this restricted format we apply as our present life (please: don't ask!)
However I barge in 'asking': what is *"rationally"? *your word (machine)
theology is just another name. If you copy the (religious/philosophical)
theology, we are not ahead and if you presume the infinite capabilities of
the 'ultimate' Loebian than we don't (can't) understand the term.
(Your last par is a 'human'(!) impersonation of a machine.
Just thinking
JohnM

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 9:16 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
>  On 08 Jul 2012, at 19:29, John Clark wrote (to Evgenii Rudnyi)
>
> If you want to understand why people are the way they are I don't think
> the Theory-of-Everything would help you much, you'd do much better studdi=
ng
> Evolutionary Biology, neurology, or computer science.
>
>
> Yes, computer science might help to understand why people are the way the=
y
> are. But computer science, the theory of, and by,  universal machines,
> already must explain, assuming comp, why people believe in fermions and
> bosons, making it a theory of everything, or at least a good candidate fo=
r
> it, especially if you take into account computer science *and* computer's
> computer science (that is, what computer can guess or can experience
> without ever being able to justified rationally: what I like to call
> "machine's theology, or "Tarski minus G=F6del").
>
> If a machine postulates comp, which by definition is true for her, she ca=
n
> already justify rationally, using her bet in comp, why she has beliefs th=
at
> she cannot justify rationally. Comp itself constitutes such a belief.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
>
> --
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<div>Bruno, thanks for your &#39;views&#39; expressed to Evgeniy below.</di=
v>
<div><u>&quot;...</u><strong><em><u>Why people believe...&quot;</u>=A0 </em=
></strong>I think we agreed that no such thing in our access as a Theory of=
 Everything (omniscience missing) and the figments scientists believe IN ar=
e fables. </div>

<div>I apologize for writing in brief <strong><em>&quot;Nature&quot;</em></=
strong> and not as I usually do: &quot;the existence, nature, the world, yo=
u name it...&quot; and for <strong><em>&#39;humans&#39;</em></strong> in a =
similar sense, abbreviated from something like: &quot;the portion of the in=
finite complexity we have actually=A0 conscious access to...&quot; (and I a=
m not sure if &#39;we&#39; - &#39;you? - have access to all details of othe=
r Loebian machines or jumping bugs how THEY exercise mental functions akin =
to our thinking in this restricted format we apply as our present life (ple=
ase: don&#39;t ask!) </div>

<div>However I barge in &#39;asking&#39;: what is <strong><em>&quot;rationa=
lly&quot;? </em></strong>your word (machine) theology is just another name.=
 If you copy the (religious/philosophical) theology, we are not ahead and i=
f you presume the infinite capabilities of the &#39;ultimate&#39; Loebian t=
han we don&#39;t (can&#39;t) understand the term. </div>

<div>(Your last par is a &#39;human&#39;(!) impersonation of a machine. </d=
iv>
<div>Just thinking</div>
<div>JohnM<br><br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 9:16 AM, Bruno Marchal <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be" target=3D"_blank">=
marc...@ulb.ac.be</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PA=
DDING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div style=3D"WORD-WRAP:break-word"><br>
<div>
<div>On 08 Jul 2012, at 19:29, John Clark wrote (to Evgenii Rudnyi)</div><b=
r>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span style=3D"TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;TEXT-INDENT:0p=
x;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT:medium Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-=
SPACING:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px">If you want to understand why people are t=
he way they are I don&#39;t think the Theory-of-Everything would help you m=
uch, you&#39;d do much better studding Evolutionary Biology, neurology, or =
computer science.=A0<span>=A0</span></span></blockquote>
<br></div>
<div>Yes, computer science might help to understand why people are the way =
they are. But computer science, the theory of, and by, =A0universal machine=
s, already must explain, assuming comp, why people believe in fermions and =
bosons, making it a theory of everything, or at least a good candidate for =
it, especially if you take into account computer science *and* computer&#39=
;s computer science (that is, what computer can guess or can experience wit=
hout ever being able to justified rationally: what I like to call &quot;mac=
hine&#39;s theology, or &quot;Tarski minus G=F6del&quot;).</div>

<div><br></div>
<div>If a machine postulates comp, which by definition is true for her, she=
 can already justify rationally, using her bet in comp, why she has beliefs=
 that she cannot justify rationally. Comp itself constitutes such a belief.=
</div>

<div><br></div>
<div>Bruno</div>
<div><br></div><br>
<div><span style=3D"TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;TEXT-INDENT:0px;BORDER-COLLAPSE:sep=
arate;FONT:12px Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;WORD-SPA=
CING:0px">
<div style=3D"WORD-WRAP:break-word">
<div><a href=3D"http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/" target=3D"_blank">http:/=
/iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"=
#888888">
<div><br></div></font></span></div></span><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font colo=
r=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D=
"#888888"><br></font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#88=
8888">
<p></p>-- <br>You received this message because you are subscribed to the G=
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</font></span></blockquote></div><br>

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