Rear End Update

[Charles DiPietro]

Hi All,

Here is that update I promised on the 3.55 Posi Rear end I got such a great deal on…

The center shaft would not come out now way, no how.  I bought the special Locking Pin extracting tool, but the nub of locking pin was spinning on the drill bit, and later found out that was not holding it in anyways.

So, if the center shaft absolutely will not come out, here is how you get the axles out, without removing the center shaft first…

1. remove bearing adjuster locks, spin adjusters almost all the way out.  This will allow the entire spool to slide left and right about 3/16" each way.
2. There are 8 smaller (1/2") bolts that hold the two halves of the spool together.  In my case, this posi has no clutch pads, but rather a spring pack, so as you loosen the 1/2" bolts, the springs push apart and open up the two halves of the spool.  At some point, the halves of the spool will bottom out side to side against the housing, and the springs run out of length to push, so that is your limit of how far you can spread open the two spool halves.
3. Doing this, you have now created more room to push the spool to one side, and slide inward the other side axle.  There will now be JUST ENOUGH clearance of the C-Clip to remove it.  I used one of those handy dandy magnets I bought to remove the chunks of locking pin, to lift out my C-clips.
4. Pop out the C-Clips and pull out the axles.
5. Remove bearing caps, then entire spool
6. Those 8 spool screws can now be removed completely, and the top half of the spool will come off, so you can now scream obscenities at the shaft and spider gears that caused all this mess in the first place. (see pics)
7. Open and Drink beer from cold receptacle.

In my case, the center shaft will STILL not come out of the two spider gears.  They spin on the shaft, but I am going to have to use a hydraulic press to get them off that shaft.  There was NOTHING holding that shaft in, other than the spider gears.  30 ton of hydraulic force ought to convince the shaft to push free.  Now I get to learn how to rebuild and setup a rear end from scratch.  I guess I secretly wanted to learn how to do it anyway.

Chuck 

65 Barracuda

Batavia, IL

   

[Steve Wander]

So the spiders spin on the shaft but wont slide off> Do they slide together enough to expose a dicknose that can be filed smooth? What a crock, but congrats on finding the solution to this "chinese wooden puzzle" ...makes me think twice about going 8.8 Explorer trac-lock...

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Steve W.
'65 "S"

[brion traill]

Yikes man! I am glad I have a good differential man here in town.

Good luck with the rest of it and please continue to let us know your progress. Good work.

Regards;

Brion

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From: Charles DiPietro <cdscr...@comcast.net>
To: Early EVBC <evbc...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: GLEN GOLZ <gg...@sbcglobal.net>; Bill Phillips <bptr...@comcast.net>; Anna & Dave Wilkensen <dlw...@att.net>
Sent: Sat, May 12, 2012 11:02:54 PM
Subject: [EVBC] Rear End Update

[Charles DiPietro]

Hi There – nope, no smoking gun ridge I can feel even.  I don't think there are ball bearings in there, but if there are, that may be it.  All I know is, this freaking thing is defying logic.  When I say, "logic", I mean a 3# sledge, as hard as I can hit it.  

Time to start assembling the parts list, and get back to re-building this B@#$%&***

I WILL use a local guy who races and knows Rear Diffs to help set up the gears properly…  When I cross that bridge …

Thanks !

Chuck

From: Steve Wander <68pi...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Early EVBC <evbc...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Saturday, May 12, 2012 10:47 PM
To: Early EVBC <evbc...@googlegroups.com>

[Donald Carpenter]

Good work Chuck!  I've been reading along, following your progress. I don't think I would have your persistence. 

Don

Sent from my iPad

<IMG_0526.jpeg>   <IMG_0527.jpeg>

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Steve W.
'65 "S"

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<IMG_0526.jpeg>

<IMG_0527.jpeg>

[moj...@charter.net]

 

Thanks for the update Chuck. Now you have taught all of us how to remedy this problem quiet cleverly !

 

Jack

 

From: Charles DiPietro

Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 11:02 PM

To: Early EVBC

Cc: GLEN GOLZ ; Bill Phillips ; Anna & Dave Wilkensen

Subject: [EVBC] Rear End Update

 

Hi All,

  

 

[Steve Wander]

Outstanding...no bearings in there, they are floaters.Shaft may be tweaked a tad preventing the very tight tolerance spiders from going anywhere but youll find that out very soon...You may try and heat the spider and drive the shaft out? 

[Charles DiPietro]

OK – I pressed the shaft out from the spider gears today at work.  Gear 1 pressed out with 6 ton, Gear 2 pressed out with almost 10 ton.  The shaft is completely scored and chewed up, the ID of the gears is just as bad.  This thing had to be making a heck of a lot of noise around turns.  Its no wonder why it was mocking me as I swung away at it with a puny 3# sledge.

I am going to add two spider gears to my list of parts, along with the shaft and locking pin, and just start rebuilding.  When I get to the part about setting up the gears for proper lash, I'll get some help – don't want to have to do this all over again…  

Learning a lot though, and that's what this "hobby" thing is all about, so who's complaining?  It still keeps me out of the bars, so what more can you ask for?

Thanks !

Chuck

From: Steve Wander <68pi...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Early EVBC <evbc...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday, May 14, 2012 9:14 AM
To: Early EVBC <evbc...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [EVBC] Rear End Update

[Charles DiPietro]

Learning more every day…

It appears that the Spring Pack seen in my differential indicates that it is an Auburn Posi.  This is a semi-good thing because it is apparently known as a heavy duty unit, but it IS after market, meaning, it was replaced, and is not original to the Posi that came in that case with the 74 Dart, so I just ALMOST bought wrong parts…  I'm told by Randy's Ring & Pinion that nobody sells just a Pinion (Spider) gear set of 2 small gears, and the shaft for the Auburn unit.  LUCKILY, I found a place in ALASKA that has "an old box on a dusty shelf" (his words, not mine) where I found a kit of just the two smaller pinion spider gears, also containing the locking pin.  The Center Shaft will have to come straight from Auburn in Indiana (drop shipped, not via Alaska)…  He also had the axle bearings / seals, a new yoke, pinion seal, but that stuff was pretty easy…  We are now up to $241 for all parts, not including drum brake hardware kits at $12 ea.

Now the really bad news…  IF, (and if you are the praying sort, please start now) – IF the side spider gears show wear as they sit right in the spool case, no friction plates, then the entire Posi Unit is TOAST, and a brand new Posi Unit is the only next step… about $475, not including bearings…

Now THAT would cause me to take this thing and throw it through his window of the Seller…

The guy in Alaska was so sure about it, that he created a temporary order for all the parts, but would not put it through until I went out and checked the side gears to see if they were bottomed out and rubbing in the pocket of the case or not.

As usual, I'll keep you posted…

Chuck

65 Barracuda

Batavia, IL 

[D. Howland]

Wow. Do you have a picture of the shaft? I have to admit, that result was very low on my probability list.

 

Final score: Chuck 1-Rear End 0

 

Daryl

64 Valiant

  

 

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[Mark Koenig]

And the 2012 EVBC Persistence Award goes to…………….CHUCK!!!

 

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[Roy Cameron Sarver]

No kidding!!!

Roy

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[DAV...@juno.com]

Saw this on Denver CraigsList.  I know nothing about it except what's in the ad.

Dave Schoenberg
Arvada, Colorado '65 Signet Convertible and a bunch of others over the years.
Learned to drive on the Valiant and a '65 Cuda...... and they were 4 years old at the time.....

 

 

Dodge Plymouth 8 3/4 Sure Grip Differential for Mopar 4:10 Gears - $800 (Hershey,Nebraska)

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Date: 2012-05-14, 5:25PM MDT
Reply to: zdgmg-30...@sale.craigslist.org ^{[Errors when replying to ads?]}

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As new 8 3/4 Sure Grip Posi center section with 4:10 gears.
This was put in and run very little and pulled out, the owner didn't like the low gears. Refer to pictures no wear on gears.
This unit has all new parts, new carrier, bearings, ring and pinion all new, $1,200 for the rebuild set up by a proffesional.
Call and make offer this has been sitting in my shop needs to go to someone who will use it.
You can not buy a new unit for this price. Any reasonable offer considered.
Call- three zero eight-520-three nine one five.

 

 

[Jeff]

not a deal at all.

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From: "DAV...@JUNO.COM" <DAV...@JUNO.COM>
To: evbc...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 12:48 AM
Subject: [EVBC] Dodge Plymouth 8 3/4 Sure Grip Differential for Mopar 4:10 Gears

[Charles DiPietro]

I will get a pic and send it out – I was amazed myself at how bad it was.  One end has two score marks that have to be 1/32" deep, while the other is scored about 1/64", and both ends look like they were just chewed on…  The guy at work who normally builds our bearings for our printing press decks, Juan, was pretty curious and came over to see what I was doing, and I showed him the first one, and he saw the shaft was toast, and so was the gear, and he saw the second one was going to be worse, so he asked me why I was even screwing around with it, since it was obvious I would need new parts anyway?  It told him that I have been screwing around with this stupid shaft for almost a month, and there was no way that shaft was not coming apart from those gears, even if they are going in the garbage.  He understood.  It was personal.  Hopefully in a day or so I can get those other gears out and inspect the case, then I will know if this thing is even worth saving, or if a new spool is in my future…

Thanks !

Chuck

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[68pi...@gmail.com]

If it makes your sense of press fit parts ability to stick, it took almost 20T to cold press a magnum piston pin into an LA rod. Normally you heat and slip it in, but these were absolutly not going in any other way but brute force. I actually deformed the AL piston at the inner pin boss because it was taking the brunt of the rod (repaired with a hone, used a support on later ones as well as a quick hone with a small flapper wheel ) but those babys are NOT coming off without that same press..

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

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From: Charles DiPietro <cdscr...@comcast.net>

Sender: evbc...@googlegroups.com

Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 03:33:23 -0500

To: Early EVBC<evbc...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: evbc...@googlegroups.com

[Steve Wander]

For $1200, you can do better, with a warranty and all. 

[DAV...@juno.com]

The $1200 was the cost to rebuild it.  The asking price is $800.

 

I don't know if $800 is a decent price or not - just pointing the ad out.

[Charles DiPietro]

Hi All,

Looks like my posh is cooked.  I'll need / get some more opinions, but I know I see wear, it's just not knowing how much is too much I guess…

Also included pics of the center shaft for those that want to see.

Time to start saving pennies again…  $500+ for a new posh spool+bearings, not to mention all the other stuff I needed anyway (seals, axle bearings, etc…)

Rats.

        

[D. Howland]

Bummer. Education is expensive these days. I can't think of a family friendly way of saying what keeps coming into my head looking at that shaft. I hope the worn stuff is just worn and not worn out.

 

Good luck and thanks for the pictures,

Daryl

64 Valiant

----- Original Message -----

From: Charles DiPietro

To: Early EVBC

Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 5:02 PM

Subject: [EVBC] Re: Rear End Update - pics

Hi All,

Looks like my posh is cooked.  I'll need / get some more opinions, but I know I see wear, it's just not knowing how much is too much I guess…

Also included pics of the center shaft for those that want to see.

Time to start saving pennies again…  $500+ for a new posh spool+bearings, not to mention all the other stuff I needed anyway (seals, axle bearings, etc…)

Rats.

        

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[moj...@charter.net]

 

 

Does anyone know the paint code/name for the dash and door color for my L4T trim code ‘65 Val. I’ve got my doubts that a paint shop would know the interior color from the code. It’s all been repainted with another color. I can find the original color under the headliner, but I’d like a color name or a sample piece that I could take to a paint shop and have matched. It’s the same as this nice interior shot that I borrowed off the net. Sorry to use someone’s pic, but it’s so nice, I want one like it!

 

Jack

[Charles DiPietro]

Hi,

I spoke again to the Young's Gear in Alaska – he guided me through how to tell if an Auburn Posi is truly cashed – the side gears have to come out.  They are cones really, and ride in what is the female side of the cone, a machined surface in the case.  As long as the cone side gear is riding on the cone machined case surface, you have posi – if not, and the gear has worn the sides, and is bottomed out on the bottom of the case, there is nothing for the cone to push against, and you end up with an open differential, effectively.  So, I used a piece of index card, made a small feeler gauge (because I was pressed for time, I'll get back to it with an actual feeler gauge tonite) and I placed the card stock in the ring area where it would be touching if it was bottomed out, and got good results on the spool side, and a little worse on the the ring gear side of the spool.  Both sides, I was able to slide out the feeler with the cone side gears reinstalled, so the guy at Youngs said it is probably not cooked yet, but maybe another year or two depending on engine size, driving habits, and miles.  Based on my budget, I am going to go ahead and rebuild it for about 1/4 the cost of new, see how long it lasts, and that buys me time to throw another new posi in it at some point in the future, and now I know how to do it.  Cheapest new posi, 27 spline I found on Ebay was $300, without side bearings, plus all the other stuff I need…    At worst, if the posi is not driving both wheels someday, I still have the same open action I have now, but with a 3.55 gear. Parts are on order and on the way, and I'll proceed that way for now… I know I should just bite the bullet and buy new, but I'm short on bullets, and I already have the $300 rear end sitting there with no guts inside, so this is better than nothing, and might actual give me a couple of years of posi, so I hope I'm doing the right thing…

I'll keep you all posted.

Thanks again !

Chuck

From: "D. Howland" <howl...@verizon.net>
Reply-To: Early EVBC <evbc...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 7:07 PM
To: Early EVBC <evbc...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [EVBC] Re: Rear End Update - pics

[Steve Wander]

You can machine the bottoms of the cone seats to give new life to a cone SG unit. look it up, Moparaction did one I believe...

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[Charles DiPietro]

Just found out that the 2 pinion gear set I was going to get is for modern Auburn, will not fit mine…  

Cross Shafts are also different now, too short…  Can't find any new replacement parts for my old style Auburn.  Even GM is different…

Machine shop could machine down bottom of gear, top of case, but that's $$$ too…

Short story is, it's FUBAR.

Rats.

I am biting the bullet.  I found a Dana Trac Loc Posi brand new on Ebay (360451906857) for $300 the end gear/race sets are $21.75 ea. And I'm going to just freakin do it.  Youngs Gear said they will match it and put it all together in one box with all my other stuff and it would save me shipping anyway.  After all his help, I'd rather buy it from him than some "stranger" on Ebay…

So that's that.  $517 delivered.  New Posi Unit, End Bearings/Races, New Pinion Yoke/Seal/straps, Axle Bearings/seals, UPS Ground Service

Sucks to scrape up the extra coins out of the couch, but at least I won't have to worry about a darn thing.

And as usual, I'll keep you posted…

Thanks again for all the advice !!!

Chuck

65 Barracuda

Batavia, IL

[Steve Wander]

Chuck, you are a better man than I. I would have just bought a $200 Explorer 8.8 limited slip disc brake rear and a second short axle and cut to fit. Cheap, plentiful, and cheap! Need 4.5 wheels though.....

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[pas...@comcast.net]

If it was'nt for Guys like Plato,  Edison,  Franklin,  Bell, Tesla and Chuck we would have the answeres we do today.

 

Thanks Chuck. My hats off to ya.

 

Keith

64 Valiant Ragtop

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[pas...@comcast.net]

Jack any good paint shop should be able to show you some paint color swatches that you can pick from.

The picture is hard to tell the color althought it looks like a beige to me. My 64 paint chart dosent show

any light color like that for Plymouth. My 63 paint chart shows two lighter color interior swatches one being

Alabaster, - Lucite # 4377-L , Duco# 4377 and Dulux # 93-96546

Beige,- Lucite # 4383-L,  Duco 4383 and Dulux # 93-96552.

Althought these #s go way back, the paint shop May be able to cross reference them.

 You can search e-bay for the 65 color chart your looking for ,thats where I found Mine.

 

Good luck in your search.

 

Keith

64 Valiant Ragtop.

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[D. Howland]

Does this help? http://www.paintscratch.com/touch_up_paint/Plymouth/1964-Plymouth-All-Models.html

 

Daryl

64 Valiant

[moj...@charter.net]

Yes, thank you Keith and Daryl, these give me something to go on. I guess I just need to take this info and see what the paint shop can do. I did find the old cardboard kick panels. I don’t know if they can pull a true color from that. The cardboard just doesn’t have a good depth to the color, but it’s a start.

 

Thanks guys,

Jack