Request from the SL Tribune
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Ronan
Jun 23, 2009, 3:57:14 AM6/23/09
to European Mormon Studies Association
This from Peggy Stack at the Salt Lake Tribune. Post your replies
here, with brief bio and contact details, and I'll forward them on to
her.
Ronan, I am writing a piece of the July 4th weekend (naturally) about
Mormonism's connection to America. So here's my questions:
1) Can Mormonism ever truly be a global faith if it's too closely wed
to America?
2) Does the American connection help or hurt its missionary efforts
in Europe?
3) Have you seen any diminished emphasis on America as the promised
land among Mormon missionary discussions or Sunday school lessons in
wards and branches of Europe?
4) Any other thoughts about the topic?
5) Who else should I be talking to about it? Can you pose the
questions to others associated with the European MHA?
Thanks,
Peggy
here, with brief bio and contact details, and I'll forward them on to
her.
Ronan, I am writing a piece of the July 4th weekend (naturally) about
Mormonism's connection to America. So here's my questions:
1) Can Mormonism ever truly be a global faith if it's too closely wed
to America?
2) Does the American connection help or hurt its missionary efforts
in Europe?
3) Have you seen any diminished emphasis on America as the promised
land among Mormon missionary discussions or Sunday school lessons in
wards and branches of Europe?
4) Any other thoughts about the topic?
5) Who else should I be talking to about it? Can you pose the
questions to others associated with the European MHA?
Thanks,
Peggy
CCharles
Jun 23, 2009, 6:17:45 AM6/23/09
to European Mormon Studies Association
1. I'd start answering the first question by another question: do we
have a religion called "Mormonism" without "America"? In my opinion
no. It is not possible to dissociate the two. Mormonism is
historically, socially, and in some way doctrinally American. Take way
the Americanness of Mormonism and you find yourself with an
unidentifiable religion.
Some American Mormons would disagree with that because they are
comfortable with Mormonism as it is and because they see it through
their own cultural, historical and geographical experiences. Being a
Mormon in the US is less demanding than, say in France. Because in the
US, in spite of criticism, converts to Mormonism can easily blend in
Mormon values with their general American values, and because people
are less suspicious of religions than in France. There are of course
preconceived ideas about Mormonism on both sides. It may be difficult
for converts' relatives to accept Mormonism simply because it is
Mormonism. But, in America, it will not pose that big of a problem for
converts to say that they are not available on Sundays because they
have to go to Church. In France, going to Church on Sunday can be a
further source of tension for converts with their families. Armand L.
Mauss highlights this and other points of tensions in his "Can the be
a 'Second Harvest'? :Controlling the Cost of Latter-day Saint
Membership in Europe".
2. So, that Mormonism is American is and will remain so is
unquestionable. In my opinion, the challenge for Mormonism to become a
real global religion depends on how it uses or not its Americaness. In
some countries and at certain periods, people may open their doors to
LDS missionaries simply because they are Americans and because the US
played a significant role in their country's history. For instance,
the period of the anniversary of the Landing in Normandy can be a
positive one for Mormonism.It was so in the period after 9/11 because
then French people identified with Americans ("Nous sommes tous
américains": "we are all Americans" they used to say). On the other
hand, LDS missionaries had to be very cautious when the US decided to
invade Irak in spite of the international community. Mormonism then
suffered from the bad image of America abroad.
Although some American Mormons are sometimes overproud and consider it
as the fulfillment of prophecy, the fact that Mormonism is an American
religion does help to go global. That a religion relies on a powerful
is not so new. The Roman Catholic Church did the same, it relied on
Portugal, Spain, France, etc. to spread across the earth. Of course,
the context is now different. The peoples of the world are more
conscious of their own identities and cultures than in the sixteenth
and seventeenth centuries. Mormonism has to take those cultures into
account. It's no use saying it is not an American religion as some US
Mormons like to say. Mormonism has to recognize that it is an American
religion; that is a good place to start as it may lead to tone down
what's necessary, take away what can be taken away so as to make room
for the other cultures to appropriate it (Mormonism). A few places to
start: Mormon missionaries, no matter where they come from, are
perceived as "Americans". Is it essential for Mormonism to have an
overly American missionary force? In Haiti, the Church is made of, and
is lead by, Haitians. No matter how that came about, there is a lot to
learn there. What about the Church's hierarchy? Doesn't the Church
have more non-American leaders? The in-coming Europe Area Presidency
will be composed of a German, a French and a Portuguese. That is
definitely a good thing. It will depend on them to blend in their
European identity with the American values they represent and take
Mormonism further in Europe.
3. America as "Zion/A Promised Land" is not mentioned in missionary
discussions anymore. I joined the Church in 1996, was a missionary
from 1997 to 1999, I still go out with the missionaries every once in
while, and I don't remember seeing or hearing that. On the other hand,
the notion is an ever-returning one in Sunday Schools lessons. All the
longtime members agree with it. In a quick little survey that I
conducted on the issue, I found that only 1 out of 10 French Mormons
question it. This may explain by the fact that most French Mormons
have only a religious approach of their faith and avoid questioning
it. Even those who engage in Academic study of Mormonism usually keep
their findings to themselves because they don't want to be
misinterpreted or accused of "losing the faith".
So, that's just a few quick remarks. Time does not allow to develop or
to write more.
You may want to get in touch with Sophie-Hélène Trigeaud (M.A and Ph.D
theses on Mormonism) at the Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes in Paris;
and Christian Euvrard (Director of the LDS Institute of Religion in
Paris; recently defended a thesis on history of Mormonism in France)
Questions or further discussion with me:
Carter CHARLES
M.A in North American Studies (Mormonism, Politics)
Certified Teacher of English
Temporary Lecturer: University Bordeaux 3, France
c_jch...@hotmail.com
have a religion called "Mormonism" without "America"? In my opinion
no. It is not possible to dissociate the two. Mormonism is
historically, socially, and in some way doctrinally American. Take way
the Americanness of Mormonism and you find yourself with an
unidentifiable religion.
Some American Mormons would disagree with that because they are
comfortable with Mormonism as it is and because they see it through
their own cultural, historical and geographical experiences. Being a
Mormon in the US is less demanding than, say in France. Because in the
US, in spite of criticism, converts to Mormonism can easily blend in
Mormon values with their general American values, and because people
are less suspicious of religions than in France. There are of course
preconceived ideas about Mormonism on both sides. It may be difficult
for converts' relatives to accept Mormonism simply because it is
Mormonism. But, in America, it will not pose that big of a problem for
converts to say that they are not available on Sundays because they
have to go to Church. In France, going to Church on Sunday can be a
further source of tension for converts with their families. Armand L.
Mauss highlights this and other points of tensions in his "Can the be
a 'Second Harvest'? :Controlling the Cost of Latter-day Saint
Membership in Europe".
2. So, that Mormonism is American is and will remain so is
unquestionable. In my opinion, the challenge for Mormonism to become a
real global religion depends on how it uses or not its Americaness. In
some countries and at certain periods, people may open their doors to
LDS missionaries simply because they are Americans and because the US
played a significant role in their country's history. For instance,
the period of the anniversary of the Landing in Normandy can be a
positive one for Mormonism.It was so in the period after 9/11 because
then French people identified with Americans ("Nous sommes tous
américains": "we are all Americans" they used to say). On the other
hand, LDS missionaries had to be very cautious when the US decided to
invade Irak in spite of the international community. Mormonism then
suffered from the bad image of America abroad.
Although some American Mormons are sometimes overproud and consider it
as the fulfillment of prophecy, the fact that Mormonism is an American
religion does help to go global. That a religion relies on a powerful
is not so new. The Roman Catholic Church did the same, it relied on
Portugal, Spain, France, etc. to spread across the earth. Of course,
the context is now different. The peoples of the world are more
conscious of their own identities and cultures than in the sixteenth
and seventeenth centuries. Mormonism has to take those cultures into
account. It's no use saying it is not an American religion as some US
Mormons like to say. Mormonism has to recognize that it is an American
religion; that is a good place to start as it may lead to tone down
what's necessary, take away what can be taken away so as to make room
for the other cultures to appropriate it (Mormonism). A few places to
start: Mormon missionaries, no matter where they come from, are
perceived as "Americans". Is it essential for Mormonism to have an
overly American missionary force? In Haiti, the Church is made of, and
is lead by, Haitians. No matter how that came about, there is a lot to
learn there. What about the Church's hierarchy? Doesn't the Church
have more non-American leaders? The in-coming Europe Area Presidency
will be composed of a German, a French and a Portuguese. That is
definitely a good thing. It will depend on them to blend in their
European identity with the American values they represent and take
Mormonism further in Europe.
3. America as "Zion/A Promised Land" is not mentioned in missionary
discussions anymore. I joined the Church in 1996, was a missionary
from 1997 to 1999, I still go out with the missionaries every once in
while, and I don't remember seeing or hearing that. On the other hand,
the notion is an ever-returning one in Sunday Schools lessons. All the
longtime members agree with it. In a quick little survey that I
conducted on the issue, I found that only 1 out of 10 French Mormons
question it. This may explain by the fact that most French Mormons
have only a religious approach of their faith and avoid questioning
it. Even those who engage in Academic study of Mormonism usually keep
their findings to themselves because they don't want to be
misinterpreted or accused of "losing the faith".
So, that's just a few quick remarks. Time does not allow to develop or
to write more.
You may want to get in touch with Sophie-Hélène Trigeaud (M.A and Ph.D
theses on Mormonism) at the Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes in Paris;
and Christian Euvrard (Director of the LDS Institute of Religion in
Paris; recently defended a thesis on history of Mormonism in France)
Questions or further discussion with me:
Carter CHARLES
M.A in North American Studies (Mormonism, Politics)
Certified Teacher of English
Temporary Lecturer: University Bordeaux 3, France
c_jch...@hotmail.com
CCharles
Jun 23, 2009, 6:35:11 AM6/23/09
to European Mormon Studies Association
I forgot to mention among the possible contacts, my longtime
supervisor and mentor. (Can you believe it?): Pr. Bernadette Rigal-
Cellard: bcel...@numericable.fr. She's one the specialists of
Mormonism in France. All about her here: http://climas.u-bordeaux3.fr/membres/rigal-cellard.html.
Carter
> c_jchar...@hotmail.com
supervisor and mentor. (Can you believe it?): Pr. Bernadette Rigal-
Cellard: bcel...@numericable.fr. She's one the specialists of
Mormonism in France. All about her here: http://climas.u-bordeaux3.fr/membres/rigal-cellard.html.
Carter
Decoo Wilfried
Jun 23, 2009, 7:17:45 AM6/23/09
to Ronan, European Mormon Studies Association
Hi Ronan
I got the same questions from Peggy and referred her to my contribution
on the topic:
http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/how-american-is-the-church/
Perhaps also interesting for those who like the topic...
Wilfried
I got the same questions from Peggy and referred her to my contribution
on the topic:
http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/how-american-is-the-church/
Perhaps also interesting for those who like the topic...
Wilfried
Barbara Berntsen
Jun 23, 2009, 7:55:23 AM6/23/09
to CCharles, European Mormon Studies Association, euromorm...@googlegroups.com
Contact Kristian Andreas Kvalvag: yesk...@yahoo.no. Kvalvag submitted the following Master's thesis, 'The Latter-Day Saints, Mitt Romney and The American Religion,' spring semester 2009, University of Bergen, Norway.
-----Opprinnelig melding-----
Fra: euromorm...@googlegroups.com [mailto:] På vegne av CCharles
Sendt: 23. juni 2009 12:35
Til: European Mormon Studies Association
Emne: [EMSA] Re: Request from the SL Tribune
-----Opprinnelig melding-----
Fra: euromorm...@googlegroups.com [mailto:] På vegne av CCharles
Sendt: 23. juni 2009 12:35
Til: European Mormon Studies Association
Emne: [EMSA] Re: Request from the SL Tribune
KBlack
Jun 24, 2009, 9:16:43 AM6/24/09
to European Mormon Studies Association
The questions you are asking are very exciting to a scholar of
religion and Mormonism specifically, and I am honored to contribute to
the conversation. These questions reveal the tensions felt by
religions when they began to become routinized, or begin to extend
beyond their place of origin and be more widely accepted. I assert
that the core issue with the global expansion of Mormonism is
overcoming the perception that it is a Utah church/religion rather
than an American religion. It is something still being dealt with
inside of the US as well as in Europe. Simply put, people equate
Mormonism with Utah which of course is part of America so the two do
go hand in hand, but if you overlook the impact and implications of
Utah being the LDS church headquarters, and the place most
missionaries are from, you have not considered all aspects of the
issue. Even in the States overcoming the LDS “Utah as Zion” mentality
has its challenges. I have seen the question become ‘can Mormonism
become global if it is too closely wed to Utah?’ I have seen Mormons
outside of Utah question their ‘worthiness’ when they live outside of
Utah or do not have ancestral ties there, or if they are first
generation Mormons. The idea of Mormons being a chosen people in a
chosen land is at the heart of the religion and does have its
challenges when the religion grows outside that chosen land. However,
it is not an idea particular only to Mormonism; Muslims and Catholics
to name only two also deal with this issue. It is a question that
never goes away, but does seem to diminish in intensity as the church
grows. For instance, rarely now do you hear someone refer to Roman
Catholics, or assume that all Catholics are Italian. One thing the LDS
church has in its favor is that foreign missionary work began so early
in the church’s history, most of the early converts were from England
and Scandinavia, so your questions are ones the church has been
dealing with for well over 100 years. Yet, even with the churches long
history of missionary work, the debate around your questions always
end with another question: “how can I be a Mormon outside of Utah or
if I am not American?” I’m absolutely certain I will spend the rest
of my life chasing the answer to that question.
Kristeen Black
PhD candidate Drew University
Luce Fellow, Center for Christianity in a Global Context
MA Drew University – thesis on Rev. Dr. Jeremiah Wright and Prophetic
Leaders
BA Philosophy University of Montana
kbl...@drew.edu
religion and Mormonism specifically, and I am honored to contribute to
the conversation. These questions reveal the tensions felt by
religions when they began to become routinized, or begin to extend
beyond their place of origin and be more widely accepted. I assert
that the core issue with the global expansion of Mormonism is
overcoming the perception that it is a Utah church/religion rather
than an American religion. It is something still being dealt with
inside of the US as well as in Europe. Simply put, people equate
Mormonism with Utah which of course is part of America so the two do
go hand in hand, but if you overlook the impact and implications of
Utah being the LDS church headquarters, and the place most
missionaries are from, you have not considered all aspects of the
issue. Even in the States overcoming the LDS “Utah as Zion” mentality
has its challenges. I have seen the question become ‘can Mormonism
become global if it is too closely wed to Utah?’ I have seen Mormons
outside of Utah question their ‘worthiness’ when they live outside of
Utah or do not have ancestral ties there, or if they are first
generation Mormons. The idea of Mormons being a chosen people in a
chosen land is at the heart of the religion and does have its
challenges when the religion grows outside that chosen land. However,
it is not an idea particular only to Mormonism; Muslims and Catholics
to name only two also deal with this issue. It is a question that
never goes away, but does seem to diminish in intensity as the church
grows. For instance, rarely now do you hear someone refer to Roman
Catholics, or assume that all Catholics are Italian. One thing the LDS
church has in its favor is that foreign missionary work began so early
in the church’s history, most of the early converts were from England
and Scandinavia, so your questions are ones the church has been
dealing with for well over 100 years. Yet, even with the churches long
history of missionary work, the debate around your questions always
end with another question: “how can I be a Mormon outside of Utah or
if I am not American?” I’m absolutely certain I will spend the rest
of my life chasing the answer to that question.
Kristeen Black
PhD candidate Drew University
Luce Fellow, Center for Christianity in a Global Context
MA Drew University – thesis on Rev. Dr. Jeremiah Wright and Prophetic
Leaders
BA Philosophy University of Montana
kbl...@drew.edu
CCharles
Jun 24, 2009, 9:50:52 AM6/24/09
to European Mormon Studies Association
Dear K Black,
I understand your argument and in some cases have used Utah or places
with large Mormon communities as examples of the Americanness of
Mormonism, especially when it comes to the leadership of the Church
and its missionary force. Indeed, some LDS feel privileged to live
close to "the Brethren" in Utah. Yet, I can't fully agree with you on
Mormonism as a Utah church/religion. For those "privileged LDS" (at
least they think so) are very few. I'd even go so far to say that Utah
is not in every way representative of what the LDS Church really is
nowadays. In my opinion, Utah mormons have to learn to be "real
mormons" only when they get out of Utah. The place is unique in LDS
history and the concentration of LDS there do dilute what other
mormons have to deal with. Those days are long gone when the LDS
Church used to be reduced to an intermountain close knit community.
I also wonder how much space you give to the Church's history in other
parts of the US before landing in Utah. Most of the Church's doctrine
was framed or revealed outside of Utah. And, one thing that further
symbilizes Mormonism's Americanness is its geographical progress from
East to West as if fulfilling Thomas Jefferson's dream beginning in
the 1830's in Upstate new York to the Rocky Mountains (Lewis and
Clark?). Interestingly, just like Lewis and Clark emerged different
Americans from the Wilderness, the LDS Church came out with new
dynamics after its Missouri, Illinois chapters. It is a church that
changed socially, politically and that evolved doctrinally with
America; think polygamy, temple work and freemasonry, place of Black
in its priesthood... Those are typically American, not Utahn.
Carter
> > Peggy- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -
>
> - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -
I understand your argument and in some cases have used Utah or places
with large Mormon communities as examples of the Americanness of
Mormonism, especially when it comes to the leadership of the Church
and its missionary force. Indeed, some LDS feel privileged to live
close to "the Brethren" in Utah. Yet, I can't fully agree with you on
Mormonism as a Utah church/religion. For those "privileged LDS" (at
least they think so) are very few. I'd even go so far to say that Utah
is not in every way representative of what the LDS Church really is
nowadays. In my opinion, Utah mormons have to learn to be "real
mormons" only when they get out of Utah. The place is unique in LDS
history and the concentration of LDS there do dilute what other
mormons have to deal with. Those days are long gone when the LDS
Church used to be reduced to an intermountain close knit community.
I also wonder how much space you give to the Church's history in other
parts of the US before landing in Utah. Most of the Church's doctrine
was framed or revealed outside of Utah. And, one thing that further
symbilizes Mormonism's Americanness is its geographical progress from
East to West as if fulfilling Thomas Jefferson's dream beginning in
the 1830's in Upstate new York to the Rocky Mountains (Lewis and
Clark?). Interestingly, just like Lewis and Clark emerged different
Americans from the Wilderness, the LDS Church came out with new
dynamics after its Missouri, Illinois chapters. It is a church that
changed socially, politically and that evolved doctrinally with
America; think polygamy, temple work and freemasonry, place of Black
in its priesthood... Those are typically American, not Utahn.
Carter
>
> - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -
KBlack
Jul 3, 2009, 12:50:18 PM7/3/09
to European Mormon Studies Association
Hello Carter,
Thank you for your comments. I agree, Utah Mormonism is the exception
rather than the rule as to what the LDS church really is, but to those
outside of the church Utah is still held as the example. I actually
give a lot of space to the origins of Mormonism outside of Utah, as
the exodus into Utah makes no sense otherwise. Mormonism was born in
a unique period of American history, a time when religious fervor was
sweeping the Burned Over district of NY. Other religions were born
around this time as well, but no others have the same results nor deep
theological underpinings (as well as herecies). However, to return to
the topic, it is not that Mormonism IS a Utah religion, but it is
percieved as such outside the church that I am interested in. The
close knit mountain communities of Mormonism are recreated wherever
there are Mormons - being a close community of believers is one of the
most important aspects of the church and what keeps the church growing
and strong. Of course the various communities of Mormons all behave
and look differently - their commonality is their communal approach to
both church and daily life. I am not saying that Mormons live
together (or even close to each other) I am saying that the mindset is
one of a cohesive community. It is this Durkheimen appraoch to
religion and community that I ground my research in.
I would love to discuss this with you further, Carter. Please feel
free to contact me directy at kbl...@drew.edu. Hearing other
experiences and viewpoints is very helpful.
(please excuse the spelling errors - I know this missive must be
riddled with them!)
Kris
> > - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thank you for your comments. I agree, Utah Mormonism is the exception
rather than the rule as to what the LDS church really is, but to those
outside of the church Utah is still held as the example. I actually
give a lot of space to the origins of Mormonism outside of Utah, as
the exodus into Utah makes no sense otherwise. Mormonism was born in
a unique period of American history, a time when religious fervor was
sweeping the Burned Over district of NY. Other religions were born
around this time as well, but no others have the same results nor deep
theological underpinings (as well as herecies). However, to return to
the topic, it is not that Mormonism IS a Utah religion, but it is
percieved as such outside the church that I am interested in. The
close knit mountain communities of Mormonism are recreated wherever
there are Mormons - being a close community of believers is one of the
most important aspects of the church and what keeps the church growing
and strong. Of course the various communities of Mormons all behave
and look differently - their commonality is their communal approach to
both church and daily life. I am not saying that Mormons live
together (or even close to each other) I am saying that the mindset is
one of a cohesive community. It is this Durkheimen appraoch to
religion and community that I ground my research in.
I would love to discuss this with you further, Carter. Please feel
free to contact me directy at kbl...@drew.edu. Hearing other
experiences and viewpoints is very helpful.
(please excuse the spelling errors - I know this missive must be
riddled with them!)
Kris
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ronan
Jul 3, 2009, 6:43:11 PM7/3/09
to European Mormon Studies Association
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