Berlin den 10 November 1989

Unbelievable!
Incredible!
Historic!

As we sit here in West Berlin this morning, we are just discussing the news
about the wall - its open and may soon be no more!!!!

Amazing sights to see on the way to work this morning - DDR (East German)
cars on the streets, DDR citizens everywhere, traffic jams near the wall,
celebrations in the streets the whole night.

A historic day, and one to be celebrate.  During the night, not only did
people cross over via the border crossings, but people also climbed over
the wall, danced on top of it (yes that's right) and a part of the wall was
even damaged.   Can you picture people dancing on top of the Berlin wall?

Congratulations to the people of East Germany.

Gunter Zschoche, Michael Brady, et al
Nixdorf, Berlin

Congratulations to all Germans!!

(BTW, why isn't anybody in this newsgroup interested in this?)

Teemu Leisti
U of Helsinki, Finland

Right!! Could it be said also that all Europeans can congratulate
themselves too?  

Perhaps everybody is interested, (its hard to avoid this:-),
but nobody can say what will come out of this(?).

Irek Defee
Tampere U of Technology, Finland

Couldn't agree more! Well, do many West Germans want reunification? Any East
Germans on the net? (0.5*:-)) Are these events anything to do with
reunification? Is reunification interesting anyway? What do you think?

Personally, I miss the objectivism debates - Come back Magnus, all is forgiven!
This silence is exactly what I feared when people called for banning
objectivists. You *need* people with strong faiths for a good ding-dong... :-)

===========================================================================
Stewart Tansley                         STC Technology Ltd
+44 279 29531 x2763                     London Rd, Harlow, CM17 9NA, UK
d...@stl.stc.co.uk                      ...uunet!mcvax!ukc!stl!dswt
===========================================================================
If you love something, set it free.
If it doesn't come back, hunt it down and kill it!    ;-)    (Thanks to AT)
===========================================================================

I understand from my contacts in BRD that reunification is not a big issue
at the moment. It's more a case of let's wait and see - there's a long way to
go yet. I think it was very insensitive of Dr. Kohl to go blundering into
Berlin the way he did, talking about one Germany. It must have been very
embarrassing for Willy Brandt who is much more in tune with the people of
Berlin.

Actually I unsubscribed because the newsgroup seemed to have been taken over
entirely by the objectivism debate. I decided to look in again because of the
events in Eastern Europe.

Richard Porter.
--
                             ____<_____________>____    ______________________
  __  . ___                 /_] ### INTERCITY ### [_\  |[][___][___][___][___]
 /_/ / /                   /_________________________\ |Li____________________
/ \ / /__ .                +~o-o-o~===========~o-o-o~+-+~ o=o"""""""""""""""""

Just after the Berlin Wall was opened I was speaking to someone who
came from West Berlin. Her reaction was "Oh no, all those East Germans
with their appalling accents will be coming over"

On the subject of reunification, the next day on the Today program on
BCC Radio 4 they were interviewing various "notable" people about the
situation. A very interesting comment was made by some notable Frenchman
that Germany has only ever been unified between ~1890 and 1945 and
it wasn't exactly as runaway success then.

david shepherd
INMOS ltd

perhaps we need eunet.nostalgia

As I came home too late to see any news on November 9th, and didn't read a
newspaper in the morning, the first time I heard about the opening of the
borders was on eunet.politics. Since then I have watched this newsgroup
and was really disappointed as no articles were submitted concerning this
topic. However, I didn't want to start a discussion about reunification
here, as I felt this should be done by non-Germans. Maybe other people in
Germany thought the same way.

As far as I watched, talk.politics.* were concerned with their own business,
as was soc.politics. On the german Newsgroup sub.politik ( translation of
"politik" needed? ), however, a discussion began, but flaming this or that
politician was the issue.

I doubt that any East German Computer is on any network, at least legally.
Forgot the Cocom-agreement? But maybe guests from the GDR ar here?! If they
get access to the computers... And, some days ago, a former east german
computer scientist told on TV that he had found a well paid job in West Germany
soon after he arrived. He now works for one of our major military-equipment
companies...

Opinions about reunification are different, here in West Germany. Different
generatons think differently: Older people still remember times when Germany
was one state, or when the separation was much less self-evident as it is now
(or was, until now). Our generation has never known any east border than that
to GDR. On the other hand, both Germanies have much more in common than just
the language. It is hard to say what, but I often get the feeling that they
have much more in common with the west germans than, e.g., the french or the
dutch. But this refers to Austrians and german-speaking Swiss' too, and no one
wants really to be 'reunified' with Austria or Switzerland. In my opinion,
if the borders within Germany are as open as those to Austria and Switzer-
land, in both directions (currently the East Germans can easier come and go
as we West Germans), and the currencies free exchangeable at a fair rate,
there is no more need for reunification. Other people may think different.
But I think, with a reunification there would arise some very hard problems:

Hey, where's all those other Germans?! Am I all alone around here?

Well, I am from West Berlin, maybe I should comment on that German Reunifica-
tion debate.

Our constitution says we all must strive for final reunification of Germany. I
have always thought of that as the formation of a Republic of Germany consist-
ing of and limited to the FRG, the GDR, and all of Berlin.

We should leave the "German" territory east of the Oder-Neisse border (Poland's
present western border) well alone. The Poles should keep that forever.

I personally am in favour of reunification. It will solve a lot of problems
we are now having with visitors and refugees (oops, they don't have to flee
any more, they just come over) from the East. The come over, get those 100 DM,
and start shopping. Then they go back. They bring public transportation to
the brink of collapse around here. I am really happy they can come and go to
their heart's content, but if they all come at once, they spell trouble.

Then they have those *nasty* stinking cars ... well, many problems.

But reunification does not depend on us alone. The East Germans must be in
favour of it too. And I don't think they are, at least not right now.

My opinion is this: If we (all Germans) want it, let's do it. I get angry
looking at all those false friends (US, UK, France, ...) who have been paying
lip-service to the idea for four decades and have always silently (or sometimes
even openly) opposed it.

If they are Western Democracies, they must favour self-determination of the
German people. If they fear for their security, all right: Defend us, at as
far as I am concerned, there does not have to a German army. I like that idea
very much.
--
 \\   .    Martin P Ibert, Westendallee 100 d, 1000 Berlin 19, West Germany  //
 || |\ /|  E-mail mart...@netmbx.UUCP ...!uunet!unido!tmpmbx!netmbx!martini  ||
 || | | |  ----------------------------------------------------------------  ||
 //        Voelker der Welt, schaut auf diese Stadt!                         \\

[ Sorry for having inadvertedly posted an uncomplete version of this
  Article before. #@%$!@-Computers! ]

As I came home too late to see any news on November 9th, and didn't read a
newspaper in the morning, the first time I heard about the opening of the
borders was on eunet.politics. Since then I have watched this newsgroup
and was really disappointed as no articles were submitted concerning this
topic. However, I didn't want to start a discussion about reunification
here, as I felt this should be done by non-Germans. Maybe other people in
Germany thought the same way.

As far as I watched, talk.politics.* were concerned with their own business,
as was soc.politics. On the german Newsgroup sub.politik ( translation of
"politik" needed? ), however, a discussion began, but flaming this or that
politician was the issue.

I doubt that any East German Computer is on any network, at least legally.
Forgot the Cocom-agreement? But maybe guests from the GDR ar here?! If they
get access to the computers... And, some days ago, a former east german
computer scientist told on TV that he had found a well paid job in West Germany
soon after he arrived. He now works for one of our major military-equipment
companies...

Opinions about reunification are different, here in West Germany. Different
generatons think differently: Older people still remember times when Germany
was one state, or when the separation was much less self-evident as it is now
(or was, until now). Our generation has never known any east border than that
to GDR. On the other hand, both Germanies have much more in common than just
the language. It is hard to say what, but I often get the feeling that they
have much more in common with the west germans than, e.g., the french or the
dutch. But this refers to Austrians and german-speaking Swiss' too, and no one
wants really to be 'reunified' with Austria or Switzerland. In my opinion,
if the borders within Germany are as open as those to Austria and Switzer-
land, in both directions (currently the East Germans can easier come and go
as we West Germans), and the currencies free exchangeable at a fair rate,
there is no more need for reunification. Other people may think different.
But I think, with a reunification there would arise some very hard problems:

1) The economic differences between both Germanies will, if this is not
   prevented, lead to a sell-out of East Germany. Literally! The course
   was 5DM:100M for east german money, yesterday, and it is said that some
   west germans are already collecting M to buy houses etc. in East Germany
   when the borders are completely open. I get the impression that most
   West Germans are not willing to spend a single DM of their personal wealth
   for reunification.
2) Both Germanies belong to different political blocks, and none of the blocks
   will let 'their' Germany go to the other one. West Germans would not want
   to change, too. I don't know about the East Germans. So the only solution
   would be a reunified neutral Germany. Other states don't seem to like this
   idea much. Germany can't do this without consent of her neighbours. And,
   if it ever comes to a war, Germany will be the battlefield, despite all
   neutrality.

Another point is, that in most West Germans' imagination, reunifications
means merely swallowing East Germany, politically and economically.

This doesn't exclude reunification forever. If GDR has achieved a certain
economic standard, and the military blocks become more and more meaning-
less, and we West Germans learn to accept East Germany as a political unit
herself instead of Uncle Ivan's front garden, then reunification may be
on the agenda.

In another article, d...@inmos.co.uk (David Shepherd) wrote::

Germany was unified between 1871 and 1945. But unified does not refer to
a centrally governed state, like France. Germany was always, from the
early middle ages to now, except between 1935 and 1945, a federation of
(more or less) souvereign states. (Hitler deprived the states of the second
empire of their souvereignity.) From the 10th century to the end of the
30 years war in 1645, there was the 'Reich', the first german Empire, a
collection of kingdoms and duchesies with one of the kings as emperor.
His power dependet on his personal power and abilities and on the local kings
and dukes, but most times he was really gouverning. This changed 1645, but
the empire existed on, formally. The emperor, however, was now politically
meaningless. This empire ceased to exist in 1815.

esgibtkeinausgezeichnetesinertialsystemalleinertialsystemesindgleichwertig
                                 |
Oliver Bonten                    | From inside Germany:
Lehrstuhl D f. Mathematik        |     mathed@rwthinf
RWTH Aachen                      |
                                 | From outside Germany:
D-5100 Aachen                    |     F...@DACTH51.bitnet
West-Germany                     |
                                 |
The above are Institute's accounts, so add a 'to: Oliver Bonten' - line

I must say I felt extremely jealous of Berliners that weekend...  It w a s
a momentous occassion, a cathartic release of decades of tension.

What is happening in central Europe is a rapid, domino collapse of Stalinism,
due in no small part to Solidarnosc and Gorbachov...   The opportunities for
the future are immense.  But I believe we may be in for some surprises with
erstwhile purveyors of "freedom and democracy" resisting the necessary
military adjustments and questions of nation status.  After all, there is
an awful lot of investment and self-interest involved with military funding
that will drive some people into hankering after the "status-quo".  My hope
is that the current movement sows the seeds for a de-militarised Central
Europe that can prosper and spread to the nether regions.