Re: [epistemology 8874] Trash
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Georges Metanomski
Jul 3, 2008, 4:14:29 AM7/3/08
to episte...@googlegroups.com
I read periodically in all my lists fanatic, venomous
vomits of antisemitism and anti-americanism dressed up
as anti-zionism, anti-imperialism and humanism.
They boil down to propaganda of Islamist Jihad, with all its atrocities including the preparations of the second
Holocaust.
This time my reaction is triggered by Chazwin's
non-pertinent comments of my historic study "JUDEO
CRISTIAN TRINITY"
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/ESSAYS/judeo_christian_trinity.html
, which I have posted slightly adjusted, as answer to his
post terminating it with:
<<<
On the face of it it seems that Christianity had the chance
to become a renewed Jewishness, a humane ideology of
Creativeness, of Justice and of Love.
Yet, it forfeited it and became instead one of the
most inhumane ideologies of ravage, of injustice and of
hatred. I endeavor to explain the reasons thereof in
"SON 0F MAN Fraudulent bedrock of our civilization"
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/ESSAYS/son_of_man.html
>>>
vomits of antisemitism and anti-americanism dressed up
as anti-zionism, anti-imperialism and humanism.
They boil down to propaganda of Islamist Jihad, with all its atrocities including the preparations of the second
Holocaust.
This time my reaction is triggered by Chazwin's
non-pertinent comments of my historic study "JUDEO
CRISTIAN TRINITY"
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/ESSAYS/judeo_christian_trinity.html
, which I have posted slightly adjusted, as answer to his
post terminating it with:
<<<
On the face of it it seems that Christianity had the chance
to become a renewed Jewishness, a humane ideology of
Creativeness, of Justice and of Love.
Yet, it forfeited it and became instead one of the
most inhumane ideologies of ravage, of injustice and of
hatred. I endeavor to explain the reasons thereof in
"SON 0F MAN Fraudulent bedrock of our civilization"
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/ESSAYS/son_of_man.html
>>>
Without reading either of them and missing all their
essential historic and linguistic points, Chazwin
attacked this termination taken out of context, which
was like denigrating Einstein because he allegedly missed
a beat playing violin. By this occasion he got his
knife into the Jewishness as a belligerent, unjust and
cruel ideology and into me as alleged fanatic of Jewish
fundamentalism.
Now, my disdain of Jewish fundamentalism is clearly documented in two chapters of my site, which I have
indicated in the answer:
1."ISRAEL-PALESTINE AND THE PIGS"
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/POLITICS/israel_palestine_and_the_pigs.html
and
2."WHAT ISRAEL MEANS TO ME"
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/ESSAYS/israel.html
Yet, again Chazwin did not deign to read, let alone to
comment them, but preferred aggressive attacks ad
personam.
Now, writing is good, but doing is better. Just to keep
the record straight, especially for newcomers, I'll
briefly repeat some of my Israel-Palestine experiences.
I had 800 Arab students at the Haifa Uni, where, as part
of my computer supported conflict resolution research,
I have organized the Arab-Jewish workshop on ME conflict
compromise, which triggered the Israeli peace movement.
I still get posts from my former students seeking my
opinions and advise.
I was court martialed for having knocked out, in uniform
and on duty, a superior paratrooper officer indefense of
a Palestinian, whom he was abusing.
I got into serious trouble for defending legitimate
interests of Nazeret Arabs from orthodox Jewish
administrators.
I was involved in reception of survivors of the Black
September, who fled to the arch-foe Israel to avoid
to be murdered by their Arab brothers.
Briefly, I did in one day more for the Palestinians, than
all western "humane" back seat drivers, like Chazwin who,
when all is said and done, can only harm Palestinians by
supporting jihad-islamists, the worst enemies of
Palestinians.
I had patience with Chazwin, noticing that he isn't all there and had to be pitied rather than censured.
But one has to draw somewhere a line.
I draw it at idiotic prefabricated labels, such as
"Zionist Nazism", "Jewish fascist clubs", "Gazan
Holocaust" or "Palestinian genocide".
I don't feel compelled to defend, nor to justify my stand,
but, to keep the record straight, will show the fatuity
of the latter.
Both Intifadas made about 6000 Arab victims, which is of
course 6000 too much, but which represents HALF A DAY
of Auschwitz at its top performance, without counting
Treblinka, Sobibor, Buchenwald, Mauthausen, ...
The second, Polish, Warsaw Insurrection took 250 000 victims, in under 3 months, at the rate of both Intifadas
EVERY TWO DAYS.
Yet, in spite of the extreme brutality, we don't qualify
the crushing of Warsaw Insurrection as "genocide", because
it has been triggered by the Poles, who challenged the
Nazi army, knowing the risks. Many thinking Poles consider
Bor Komorowski's order to attack the Germans as a crime
against the Polish nation and I share this view, without
of course justifying the German brutality.
Both Intifadas were triggered by Islamists, who knew the
risks, who openly endeavor to annihilate Israel and both
lost in 20 years the equivalent of a half day of
Auschwitz, or two days of Warsaw Insurrection.
In the light of these figures Israeli reaction appears
extraordinarily moderate, more moderate than that of any
occupying army fighting an insurrection in history.
One may regret the occupation, one may reasonably
condemn Israeli sporadic brutality or even crimes, but
talking about Palestinian genocide, misusing Intifadas'
victims for Jihad's propaganda insults Armenians,
Bangladeshis, the victims of Red Khmer, of Gulag, of Mao,
of the Holocaust and of Palestinian Intifadas themselves.
So, as I said above, I draw a line at the thoughtless
idiotic prefabricated labels, such as "Zionist Nazism",
"Jewish fascist clubs", "Gazan Holocaust" or
"Palestinian genocide".
I send already the posts of some of their addicts unread
to trash. Henceforth Chazwin will join them.
Georges
PS Having first hand experience in problems of the ME,
I may gladly discuss them with those willing to do it
in reasonable and rational terms.
chazwin
Jul 3, 2008, 8:20:22 AM7/3/08
to Epistemology
I have recently been the recipient of George's vitriolic and
irrational prejudice and ignorance.
Despite his usual view that there are but two categories of humanity;
George and the "village idiots", his attack was "justified" and
accompanied by other unjustifiable and bigoted categories into which
his bile and largesse could be respectively placed: "Christian
culture" and "Jewish Culture".
His attack is confused and demonstrates what I belief to be the
world's greatest problem - the ignorance, stupidity, and bigotry that
accompanies "group think", and especially that sort of group think
that is based upon the irrational foundations of race and religion.
Here is the key point in which the "misunderstanding" began...
> On the face of it it seems that Christianity had the
> chance to become a renewed Jewishness, a humane
> ideology of Creativeness, of Justice and of Love.
> Yet, it forfeited it and became instead one of the
> most inhumane ideologies of ravage, of injustice and
> of hatred.
It is my contention that the ravages of Christianity of the the last
17-1800 years are mainly modeled upon the Jewish acts of violence so
well documented in the Old Testament in which god encouraged and
justifies numerous acts of violence in the name of the Jewish "race".
Umpteen times the British Empire justified its conquest and
enslavement of the world by putting aside the words reported of Jesus
on charity and peace, preferring the Old Testament for them to justify
their dirty work, with the bible in one hand and a gun in the other.
Far from "forfeiting" Jewish ideal, the history of Europe is the
embrace of those ideals.
Perhaps it was unwise of me to interject into the above statement
this:
"Tell that to the people's of Sodom and G, Jericho, and the
Palestinians and any other the others that Jews shunned and excluded
from their little club of fascists." Not knowing (or particularly
caring - (thinking George a rational being) ) that George might have
irrational sympathies for what he bizarrely characterizes as "Jewish
culture" on the one hand and additionally has a subdermal hatred of
his other bizarre category "Christian culture" whatever they might be.
As a person who values and wishes for an extension of secular society
based on reason, and who could be called a "Jew" with as much
justification as a "Gentile", I, was insulted and shocked to be
entered into the category "Christian Culture".
In response in the same post I challenged George if he thought that
"Jewish culture" were any different from "Christian". - "What more so
than Judaism? I think not! Injustice is enshrined in the
core beliefs of Judaism, at least SOME Christians pay lip service to
charity and justice.", I said.
The next exchange is where George's sense and rationalism went
completely off the rails: an example of the pernicious and unfortunate
effects that racism and religion can do the the workings of an
otherwise fine mind. He accuses me of embodying "Christian culture"
simply because I am as capable of identifying violence, bigotry
arrogance and stupidity in human culture....
> The violent, bigoted, arrogant and stupid Christian
> culture and education so elegantly embodied by your post.
Whilst I agree that Christian culture is violent, bigoted, stupid and
arrogant I doubt that you are big enough to admit the same for
Judaism
in which racism and violence is enshrined in its basic principles and
encouraged by its history.
But what is this "Christian culture" if nothing more than a bucket of
George's own bile? It is nothing more than a dustbin category into
which he has conveniently put all the evils of gentile history and
chucked me in too. But George forgets himself. He then forms the
"Jewish Culture" category into which he conveniently forgets the
crimes of the Jewish warriors of the bible and the terrorists that
formed the Jewish state in 1948. He then further compounds his
irrationality by adding:
>You completed it with the unbelievably stupid assertion
>that 2000 years of anti-semitic pogroms are the history
>of Jewish racism and violence.
Of course no such assertion was made by me - it was nothing more than
the rantings of a fool to put up a strawman. And as if to reflect by
projection his own stupidity in this statement he accuses me of making
an "unbeleivably stupid assertion".
My response:
I made no such assertion.
Post 1948 will do, and any other time in the past, when the Jews have
been in control of land, sought control of land or otherwise tried to
deprive others of theirs. I see no distinction between the behavior
of Jews in "Isreal" and that of the Gentiles who support them, except
that racial exclusivity is part of Judaism, whereas in Christianity
anyone from any "race" can act like a twat.
So what from George's vitriolic response am I to conclude?
For my part I do not see my self as part of either Jewish or Christian
culture, though the land in which I live is nominally Christian (as is
George's I would bet) and my ancestry and physical mutilation could
ascribe me as Jewish. I regard these categories as unworthy
descriptors; replete with far too many overlapping concerns and
prejudices; too vague; and like most such categories only of use to
the bigot to chastise, vilify and persecute. I have chosen neither
category for myself as I have chosen to remove myself from the victim
mentality I see amongst Jews in which every characteristic of their
lives is all due to the Holocaust, even in the second and third
generation: a convenient object with which to blame inadequacies -
reassuring. Though this evil should never be forgotten it should not
be allowed to destroy lives and mentalities. Neither should it be used
to excuse bad behaviour and irrational thinking.
Judge by deed and not by word. The deeds of which we speak are well
documented, all members of the Abrahamic religions are bigoted and
violent at the core. We will never grow up as a species until we learn
to undo these delusions.
irrational prejudice and ignorance.
Despite his usual view that there are but two categories of humanity;
George and the "village idiots", his attack was "justified" and
accompanied by other unjustifiable and bigoted categories into which
his bile and largesse could be respectively placed: "Christian
culture" and "Jewish Culture".
His attack is confused and demonstrates what I belief to be the
world's greatest problem - the ignorance, stupidity, and bigotry that
accompanies "group think", and especially that sort of group think
that is based upon the irrational foundations of race and religion.
Here is the key point in which the "misunderstanding" began...
> On the face of it it seems that Christianity had the
> chance to become a renewed Jewishness, a humane
> ideology of Creativeness, of Justice and of Love.
> Yet, it forfeited it and became instead one of the
> most inhumane ideologies of ravage, of injustice and
> of hatred.
17-1800 years are mainly modeled upon the Jewish acts of violence so
well documented in the Old Testament in which god encouraged and
justifies numerous acts of violence in the name of the Jewish "race".
Umpteen times the British Empire justified its conquest and
enslavement of the world by putting aside the words reported of Jesus
on charity and peace, preferring the Old Testament for them to justify
their dirty work, with the bible in one hand and a gun in the other.
Far from "forfeiting" Jewish ideal, the history of Europe is the
embrace of those ideals.
Perhaps it was unwise of me to interject into the above statement
this:
"Tell that to the people's of Sodom and G, Jericho, and the
Palestinians and any other the others that Jews shunned and excluded
from their little club of fascists." Not knowing (or particularly
caring - (thinking George a rational being) ) that George might have
irrational sympathies for what he bizarrely characterizes as "Jewish
culture" on the one hand and additionally has a subdermal hatred of
his other bizarre category "Christian culture" whatever they might be.
As a person who values and wishes for an extension of secular society
based on reason, and who could be called a "Jew" with as much
justification as a "Gentile", I, was insulted and shocked to be
entered into the category "Christian Culture".
In response in the same post I challenged George if he thought that
"Jewish culture" were any different from "Christian". - "What more so
than Judaism? I think not! Injustice is enshrined in the
core beliefs of Judaism, at least SOME Christians pay lip service to
charity and justice.", I said.
The next exchange is where George's sense and rationalism went
completely off the rails: an example of the pernicious and unfortunate
effects that racism and religion can do the the workings of an
otherwise fine mind. He accuses me of embodying "Christian culture"
simply because I am as capable of identifying violence, bigotry
arrogance and stupidity in human culture....
> The violent, bigoted, arrogant and stupid Christian
> culture and education so elegantly embodied by your post.
Whilst I agree that Christian culture is violent, bigoted, stupid and
arrogant I doubt that you are big enough to admit the same for
Judaism
in which racism and violence is enshrined in its basic principles and
encouraged by its history.
But what is this "Christian culture" if nothing more than a bucket of
George's own bile? It is nothing more than a dustbin category into
which he has conveniently put all the evils of gentile history and
chucked me in too. But George forgets himself. He then forms the
"Jewish Culture" category into which he conveniently forgets the
crimes of the Jewish warriors of the bible and the terrorists that
formed the Jewish state in 1948. He then further compounds his
irrationality by adding:
>You completed it with the unbelievably stupid assertion
>that 2000 years of anti-semitic pogroms are the history
>of Jewish racism and violence.
Of course no such assertion was made by me - it was nothing more than
the rantings of a fool to put up a strawman. And as if to reflect by
projection his own stupidity in this statement he accuses me of making
an "unbeleivably stupid assertion".
My response:
I made no such assertion.
Post 1948 will do, and any other time in the past, when the Jews have
been in control of land, sought control of land or otherwise tried to
deprive others of theirs. I see no distinction between the behavior
of Jews in "Isreal" and that of the Gentiles who support them, except
that racial exclusivity is part of Judaism, whereas in Christianity
anyone from any "race" can act like a twat.
So what from George's vitriolic response am I to conclude?
For my part I do not see my self as part of either Jewish or Christian
culture, though the land in which I live is nominally Christian (as is
George's I would bet) and my ancestry and physical mutilation could
ascribe me as Jewish. I regard these categories as unworthy
descriptors; replete with far too many overlapping concerns and
prejudices; too vague; and like most such categories only of use to
the bigot to chastise, vilify and persecute. I have chosen neither
category for myself as I have chosen to remove myself from the victim
mentality I see amongst Jews in which every characteristic of their
lives is all due to the Holocaust, even in the second and third
generation: a convenient object with which to blame inadequacies -
reassuring. Though this evil should never be forgotten it should not
be allowed to destroy lives and mentalities. Neither should it be used
to excuse bad behaviour and irrational thinking.
Judge by deed and not by word. The deeds of which we speak are well
documented, all members of the Abrahamic religions are bigoted and
violent at the core. We will never grow up as a species until we learn
to undo these delusions.
chazwin
Jul 3, 2008, 8:44:09 AM7/3/08
to Epistemology
On Jul 3, 9:14 am, Georges Metanomski <zg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I read periodically in all my lists fanatic, venomous
> vomits of antisemitism and anti-americanism dressed up
> as anti-zionism, anti-imperialism and humanism.
> They boil down to propaganda of Islamist Jihad, with all its atrocities including the preparations of the second
> Holocaust.
> This time my reaction is triggered by Chazwin's
> non-pertinent comments of my historic study "JUDEO
> CRISTIAN TRINITY
comment on his historic study, as I am want to judge my deeds and not
words. And the deeds of the members of the Abrahamic religions speak
volumes about their aggression and violence.
>
> Without reading either of them and missing all their
> essential historic and linguistic points, Chazwin
> attacked this termination taken out of context, which
> was like denigrating Einstein because he allegedly missed
> a beat playing violin. By this occasion he got his
> knife into the Jewishness as a belligerent, unjust and
> cruel ideology and into me as alleged fanatic of Jewish
> fundamentalism.
> Now, my disdain of Jewish fundamentalism is clearly documented in two chapters of my site, which I have
> indicated in the answer:
> and
> 2."WHAT ISRAEL MEANS TO ME"http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/ESSAYS/israel.html
>
> Yet, again Chazwin did not deign to read, let alone to
> comment them, but preferred aggressive attacks ad
> personam.
Dear oh dear Georgie - it was you that threw around the expletive my
> 2."WHAT ISRAEL MEANS TO ME"http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/ESSAYS/israel.html
>
> Yet, again Chazwin did not deign to read, let alone to
> comment them, but preferred aggressive attacks ad
> personam.
friend, not I.
My attacks were on the deeds of what you laughingly called "Jewish
culture" and "Christian culture". I was merely pointing out that which
your perfect "objective" study failed to notice, that Christianity in
trampling across Europe and the Middle East found a friend in the
exploits of the Jews, authorised by god and so, in that book, found a
useful companion to justify their aggression and violence.
I can find no common ground with a shameless apologist who attempts to
paint any one of these religions in a pure light of peace and reason
based on semantic games. You are no different from the Muslims who
declare that Islam is a religion of peace.
If You REALLY want to insist that Christianity missed the chance to "
become a renewed Jewishness, a humane ideology of Creativeness, of
Justice and of Love." Then you will also have to insist that Judaism
missed the same chance during its history of conquest. The Old
Testament is the history of the Jewish people and their violence and
the violence of their god. Thus Judaism, Islam and Christianity are
not characterized by these qualities, which you hold so dear.
You might as well say that Christianity failed its own creed of
"turning the other cheek" and "loving thy neighbor". I don't believe
the "fantasy world" construction of the Christians any more than
George's fantasy re-construction of Judaism. Judaism was never a
culture of Creativeness, Justice and Peace to anyone who was not in
their exclusive, racially defined club.
Religions set themselves apart and that is the root of conflict.
chazwin
Jul 3, 2008, 4:36:32 PM7/3/08
to Epistemology
Trash, wont pick it up
Take them lights away
Trash, wont pick it up
Dont take your life away
Trash, dont try to take my life away
And please dontcha ask me if I hate you
If you dont know what I'm doin (whatcha know is)
Cus I dont know if I do
Cus the way that I feel with you
And take a lovers leap with you
And go to fairyland with you
Go to heaven blue with you
I just dont know if I do
I just dont know if I do
---break---
Uh, how do call your lover boy?
archytas
Jul 3, 2008, 8:53:36 PM7/3/08
to Epistemology
Garbage all.
Alex P. Real
Jul 3, 2008, 10:04:39 AM7/3/08
to episte...@googlegroups.com
Hi Georges, Chazwin et al,
Newcomer here, sorry where I may not follow group etiquette. I registered about a month ago and was delighted by the level until "Amoram needs to go" and the heated Georges-Chazwin argument, which my ignorance leads me to believe are somewhat off-topic (?). As still an outsider my balance is that none of you is winning or (apparently) managing to make partisans, rather the whole group seems to be losing through this conflict. The realm of belief and group belonging is certainly a delicate issue and you’ve both made strong comments which have reached us all, maybe unpleasant to some.
Email writing can prove tricky, in a rush we can all write things we otherwise wouldn’t. Don’t you think it’s time to aim at solutions? I cannot know, but it looks like you’ve been exchanging emails before this, could you refer to previous relationship as a starting point?
If it serves to some purpose, glad to hold a calm (respectful) discussion on the subject. The so-called “three religions of the Book” encompass both admirable and horror stories, and despite not a believer, I try to learn from each and their cast on culture and society. Not infrequently worst excesses seem to lie with political manipulation of beliefs rather than core faith principles.
Cheers,
Alex
-----Mensaje original-----
De: episte...@googlegroups.com [mailto:episte...@googlegroups.com] En nombre de Georges Metanomski
Enviado el: jueves, 03 de julio de 2008 10:14
Para: episte...@googlegroups.com
Asunto: [epistemology 8884] Re: Trash
chazwin
Jul 4, 2008, 7:53:14 PM7/4/08
to Epistemology
On Jul 3, 3:04 pm, "Alex P. Real" <alex.pr...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi Georges, Chazwin et al,
>
> Newcomer here, sorry where I may not follow group etiquette.
current little tiff between him and I was based on me hitting a raw
semitic nerve of George's. If he wants to sulk and trash my posts then
so be it. But I'm sure he will be big enough to read them and see
where the discussion went off the rails.
Personally I quite enjoy the to and fro as it is part of the reason I
contribute.
So get involved!
> I registered
> about a month ago and was delighted by the level until "Amoram needs to go"
> and the heated Georges-Chazwin argument, which my ignorance leads me to
> believe are somewhat off-topic (?). As still an outsider my balance is that
> none of you is winning or (apparently) managing to make partisans, rather
> the whole group seems to be losing through this conflict.
no particular agenda or aim. It's just a forum to try out ideas on
other people - the more controversial the better in my opinion.
I can see why the "AMA has to go" might put you off. I am to blame for
that. I could not fathom his writings and wondered whether anyone else
did - often groups are plagued with SPAMMERS and TROLLS. MY headline
was inflammatory but I hoped to wake up this (often sleepy NG).
There are some clever people who contribute here so why not try a
posting of your own?
> html
nominal9
Jul 4, 2008, 8:21:44 PM7/4/08
to Epistemology
Georges,
As someone whom you have.... relegated to trash many months ago.....
as well as whom you have.... Spit upon... in word if not in deed. I
don't know what to tell you.... I definitely think that you do tend to
go A WHOLE LOT OVERBOARD in your reactions to what YOU CONSIDER to be
sleights against Jews.
Me, I have "railed" against ZIONIST RACISTS... and I am morally PROUD
OF IT.... So, does the ZIONIST RACIST label get the same "contempt"
from you as the ZIONIST NAZIISM label? Apparently, considering the
"welcome" that I got from you months ago.
George, if you read this, I want to reiterate my words to you of that
time. I admit the historic facts of the WWII Holocaust and I condemn
all of those historic attrocities. But I have to also admit and
condemn the attrocities committed upon the Palestinians by the Zionist
movement and what has become the Jewish State of Israel.
You say in your words that you also condemn "many" of those Zionist
attrocities.... But Georges, let's be clear, for all of your own
personal moderation (or your self-appraised opinion of it), in my own
and maybe in other people's opinion.... your "moderation" toward the
Palestinians is still too harsh. That's the best way I can put it. I
do not think that you go far enough in your attitude or understanding
of the Palestinian side of things....That's my own opinion of it, of
course.
nominal9
So, will you read and respond to me, Georges?... Or am I still
relegated to "trash".
Think about it... Just how "moderate" or understanding can you truly
be.... if you relegate people to "trash".... But then, I myself
relegate such "Censoring People" to my own "NOMINAL9 CENSORSHIP HALL
OF SHAME"... an eternity in Hell with their heads "literally" with
their heads stuck up their asses and with shit for brains....just as
they have lived "figuratively" in life..... You are already made that
list, you know, Georges.
nominal9
> 1."ISRAEL-PALESTINE AND THE PIGS"http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/POLITICS/israel_palestine_and_th...
As someone whom you have.... relegated to trash many months ago.....
as well as whom you have.... Spit upon... in word if not in deed. I
don't know what to tell you.... I definitely think that you do tend to
go A WHOLE LOT OVERBOARD in your reactions to what YOU CONSIDER to be
sleights against Jews.
Me, I have "railed" against ZIONIST RACISTS... and I am morally PROUD
OF IT.... So, does the ZIONIST RACIST label get the same "contempt"
from you as the ZIONIST NAZIISM label? Apparently, considering the
"welcome" that I got from you months ago.
George, if you read this, I want to reiterate my words to you of that
time. I admit the historic facts of the WWII Holocaust and I condemn
all of those historic attrocities. But I have to also admit and
condemn the attrocities committed upon the Palestinians by the Zionist
movement and what has become the Jewish State of Israel.
You say in your words that you also condemn "many" of those Zionist
attrocities.... But Georges, let's be clear, for all of your own
personal moderation (or your self-appraised opinion of it), in my own
and maybe in other people's opinion.... your "moderation" toward the
Palestinians is still too harsh. That's the best way I can put it. I
do not think that you go far enough in your attitude or understanding
of the Palestinian side of things....That's my own opinion of it, of
course.
nominal9
So, will you read and respond to me, Georges?... Or am I still
relegated to "trash".
Think about it... Just how "moderate" or understanding can you truly
be.... if you relegate people to "trash".... But then, I myself
relegate such "Censoring People" to my own "NOMINAL9 CENSORSHIP HALL
OF SHAME"... an eternity in Hell with their heads "literally" with
their heads stuck up their asses and with shit for brains....just as
they have lived "figuratively" in life..... You are already made that
list, you know, Georges.
nominal9
chazwin
Jul 5, 2008, 5:27:05 AM7/5/08
to Epistemology
Whilst many "jews" have got on with their lives and avoided having
generations of Jews blighted by the holocaust, others have adopted the
victim mentality and tend to blame all their ills on cross
generational effects of the holocaust.
There was a program on BBC recently simply called "Jews", at times it
had me in tears learning the stories of those than had managed to
survive and escape Nazi Germany, but who had lost much of their
family, left behind gassed to death.
But as the 2nd and 3rd generation continued to identify personal and
emotional characteristics that had been the consequence of their
recent ancestors I could not help but think that it was time to get on
and change. For example one woman of about 30 blamed the fact that she
liked to keep a nest-egg in the bank because of an underlying fear
that she might need to run, another blamed the lack of her emotional
intelligence on the fact the her mum had cut her self off emotionally.
There were other examples, the most tragic was the daughter of a woman
(a small child who escaped the camps) who had destroyed her life in an
obsessive research campaign of the holocaust, loosing home and family,
the daughter also adopted the same obsession and returned to their
previous European home after 70 years, devoid of language, to live
alone with her obsession having abandoned her entire British life and
friends.
We all carry the scars of our parents and Gparents. My Grandfather
hideously died slowly of cancer before I was born my mother who was
very close to him became an emotional wreck never able to express
herself. It seems to me that there is an element of choice, that I too
could have blamed my problems on the fact of having an emotionally
scarred mother. Having a big thing like th holocaust presents us with
a range of easily identifiable excuses that are universally
understood. This "victim mentality" can cause irrational behavior. I
wonder if George would care to examine that as a possibility for his
own?
generations of Jews blighted by the holocaust, others have adopted the
victim mentality and tend to blame all their ills on cross
generational effects of the holocaust.
There was a program on BBC recently simply called "Jews", at times it
had me in tears learning the stories of those than had managed to
survive and escape Nazi Germany, but who had lost much of their
family, left behind gassed to death.
But as the 2nd and 3rd generation continued to identify personal and
emotional characteristics that had been the consequence of their
recent ancestors I could not help but think that it was time to get on
and change. For example one woman of about 30 blamed the fact that she
liked to keep a nest-egg in the bank because of an underlying fear
that she might need to run, another blamed the lack of her emotional
intelligence on the fact the her mum had cut her self off emotionally.
There were other examples, the most tragic was the daughter of a woman
(a small child who escaped the camps) who had destroyed her life in an
obsessive research campaign of the holocaust, loosing home and family,
the daughter also adopted the same obsession and returned to their
previous European home after 70 years, devoid of language, to live
alone with her obsession having abandoned her entire British life and
friends.
We all carry the scars of our parents and Gparents. My Grandfather
hideously died slowly of cancer before I was born my mother who was
very close to him became an emotional wreck never able to express
herself. It seems to me that there is an element of choice, that I too
could have blamed my problems on the fact of having an emotionally
scarred mother. Having a big thing like th holocaust presents us with
a range of easily identifiable excuses that are universally
understood. This "victim mentality" can cause irrational behavior. I
wonder if George would care to examine that as a possibility for his
own?
archytas
Jul 5, 2008, 5:45:59 AM7/5/08
to Epistemology
We all find it hard to live with our capacity for genocide, what lurks
beneath and so on. We all know the most avoid politically correct
arse is likely to be racist, sexist and worse under the espoused
theory. I note that in Borisville (once London) it is now OK to
appoint crooked religious freaks as deputy mayors and not be worried
that a crooked conman is the best we can do to prevent knife and gun
crime. Elsewhere we stop a young man from doing a medicine degree
because of a minor burglary conviction. There is often a warmth at
the heart of communities that work and live together, but also
darkness at noon. We need a better complexity in argument that allows
us to include more without entering pendantry of bickering. Georges
is right to point to some nasty stuff coing from the Islamic hoarde -
yet as in this term, we are demonising too.
> > > in reasonable and rational terms.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
beneath and so on. We all know the most avoid politically correct
arse is likely to be racist, sexist and worse under the espoused
theory. I note that in Borisville (once London) it is now OK to
appoint crooked religious freaks as deputy mayors and not be worried
that a crooked conman is the best we can do to prevent knife and gun
crime. Elsewhere we stop a young man from doing a medicine degree
because of a minor burglary conviction. There is often a warmth at
the heart of communities that work and live together, but also
darkness at noon. We need a better complexity in argument that allows
us to include more without entering pendantry of bickering. Georges
is right to point to some nasty stuff coing from the Islamic hoarde -
yet as in this term, we are demonising too.
>
> - Show quoted text -
AMA
Jul 6, 2008, 6:59:43 PM7/6/08
to Epistemology
Hi Chaz,
===========
Do you mean "Amoram has to go". Cos if my posts did really disturb
you, you never shew it.
=========
> The realm of
>
> > belief and group belonging is certainly a delicate issue and you've both
> > made strong comments which have reached us all, maybe unpleasant to some.
=========
Alex I completely agree with you. Everyone was raised and educated in
a system that, for everyone, is the TRUE ONE.
When I was young, I was thaught that Jews were Machiavelic enough to
get into the Palestinian territory and to buy all the lands. We also
were thaught about the zionist movement.
When I talked to people from other countrie, they told different
versions of the same historical period.
I guess that either what I, and them, were thaught was right.
Perception may be different because of the fundamental differences
(religion, in this case).
We have now a Palestinians claiming they're victims (I think it's
true). We have Israelites claiming the land is their's ( the're deeply
convinced, so in their reference frame it's true).
I guess that they're all true and all wrong.
the point is that some of georges words are unpleasant to me, but I'm
sure he doesn't want to hurt and that he's sincere. Chazwin seemes
rational and with a great background, so he knows what he's saying. I
really think that no one will convince the other, so I join my voice
to Alex's and ask u, with respect, to avoid this kind of insolvable
issues.
Sorry if I hurt someone,
===========
I can see why the "AMA has to go" might put you off. I am to blame
for
> that. I could not fathom his writings and wondered whether anyone else
> did -
===========
for
> that. I could not fathom his writings and wondered whether anyone else
> did -
Do you mean "Amoram has to go". Cos if my posts did really disturb
you, you never shew it.
=========
> The realm of
>
> > belief and group belonging is certainly a delicate issue and you've both
> > made strong comments which have reached us all, maybe unpleasant to some.
Alex I completely agree with you. Everyone was raised and educated in
a system that, for everyone, is the TRUE ONE.
When I was young, I was thaught that Jews were Machiavelic enough to
get into the Palestinian territory and to buy all the lands. We also
were thaught about the zionist movement.
When I talked to people from other countrie, they told different
versions of the same historical period.
I guess that either what I, and them, were thaught was right.
Perception may be different because of the fundamental differences
(religion, in this case).
We have now a Palestinians claiming they're victims (I think it's
true). We have Israelites claiming the land is their's ( the're deeply
convinced, so in their reference frame it's true).
I guess that they're all true and all wrong.
the point is that some of georges words are unpleasant to me, but I'm
sure he doesn't want to hurt and that he's sincere. Chazwin seemes
rational and with a great background, so he knows what he's saying. I
really think that no one will convince the other, so I join my voice
to Alex's and ask u, with respect, to avoid this kind of insolvable
issues.
Sorry if I hurt someone,
chazwin
Jul 6, 2008, 8:21:17 PM7/6/08
to Epistemology
On Jul 6, 11:59 pm, AMA <andalibmed...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Chaz,
> ===========
> I can see why the "AMA has to go" might put you off. I am to blame
> for> that. I could not fathom his writings and wondered whether anyone else
> > did -
>
> ===========
>
> Do you mean "Amoram has to go". Cos if my posts did really disturb
> you, you never shew it.
impenetrable.
For example:
"But our intelligence is making in the "t" time only the punctual
instantaneous analysis of this complex /\. At present we analyze only
the two terminal points at the base of this /\ and we perceive this
punctual complexity how our electro-magnetism. Through the progression
of our temporal analysis, this /\ will appear always more short, till
it becomes the high "inversion point" (the "death point" of the
separation between the Analytic electric Spirit of the Observer, and
the body... that cannot more permit that electric advancement).
The future of the same "analysis" is a /\ always more high, and - on
the base of the advancing electrical life - we'll advance magnetically
and with antimatter body in the past time of the same "constructive"
life of now, perceiving the inverse "destructive" dynamic, with all
the actions returning in their causes, always more remote and
fundamental ones. Entered again in the maternal uterus, afterwards
we'll be connected to our 2 parents, 4 grandfathers, 8, 16, 32... ALL
the "HOLY FATHER" "
This makes no sense to me whatever. And I wondered if anyone else
could make sense of it.
what I say personally, and displays the very characteristics and
behavioural traits that are at the very heart of the problem: insults
tribalism and bigotry.
He falsely accuses me of anti-semitism, whilst I have as much right to
claim to be semitic as anyone. I choose to reject tribalism. I reject
it in favour of trying to see that the Palestinians have a valid
claim.
When I was young I cheered on the Israelis in 1967 and 1974, because I
did not understand why Arabs would want to attack, as I had no
knowledge of the situation in 1948 - and the British News service were
not falling over themselves to remind anyone. At that time I puzzled
over why Golda Mayer had said that the Palestinians were no different
from Jordanians. It took time to realise that she was actually
denigrating those that had adopted a Palestinian identity no more or
less valid than anyone identifying themselves as a Jew.
It is this tendancy, group think, tribalism which stands in the way of
progress in human affairs and George is guilty of that crime.
>
> read more »
ornamentalmind
Jul 6, 2008, 10:43:40 PM7/6/08
to Epistemology
"This makes no sense to me whatever. And I wondered if anyone else
could make sense of it." - chaz
I can't!
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
chazwin
Jul 7, 2008, 6:47:07 AM7/7/08
to Epistemology
ornamentalmind wrote:
> "This makes no sense to me whatever. And I wondered if anyone else
> could make sense of it." - chaz
>
> I can't!
AMA
Jul 7, 2008, 8:21:37 AM7/7/08
to Epistemology
Please Chaz, read my posts again. I'm not Amoram. I don' either
understand his posts.
I can't see why your linking me with him or her.
I'm AMA: Andalib Mohamed Ali.
I'm torn between your point of view and Georges one.
> ...
>
> read more »
understand his posts.
I can't see why your linking me with him or her.
I'm AMA: Andalib Mohamed Ali.
I'm torn between your point of view and Georges one.
>
> read more »
chazwin
Jul 7, 2008, 9:32:18 AM7/7/08
to Epistemology
My mistake .
> ...
>
> read more »
>
> read more »
archytas
Jul 7, 2008, 10:46:48 AM7/7/08
to Epistemology
Torn between Georges and Chaz - get a life you muppet!
AMA
Jul 7, 2008, 12:22:53 PM7/7/08
to Epistemology
Thank you for your understanding of the situation.
I'm not really fluent in English, but isn't muppet exagerated? I can't
see why U allow your self to attack me this way, for free.
Did U get your life? Are you opinions cristallised or can they
change?
This last days everyone is showing a kind of nervousity, ????????????
I really thought before reading all these last posts that intelligent
and cultivated people would never have to be violent. Thank you for
proving me that my opinion was wrong (but not cristallised).
> ...
>
> read more »
I'm not really fluent in English, but isn't muppet exagerated? I can't
see why U allow your self to attack me this way, for free.
Did U get your life? Are you opinions cristallised or can they
change?
This last days everyone is showing a kind of nervousity, ????????????
I really thought before reading all these last posts that intelligent
and cultivated people would never have to be violent. Thank you for
proving me that my opinion was wrong (but not cristallised).
>
> read more »
ornamentalmind
Jul 7, 2008, 4:47:08 PM7/7/08
to Epistemology
> So I'm not going mad? - chaz
No guarantees chaz! ;-)
No guarantees chaz! ;-)
chazwin
Jul 8, 2008, 3:35:03 AM7/8/08
to Epistemology
On Jul 7, 9:47 pm, ornamentalmind <ornamentalm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > So I'm not going mad? - chaz
>
> No guarantees chaz! ;-)
>
> read more »
archytas
Jul 8, 2008, 4:26:38 AM7/8/08
to Epistemology
Some of the Muppets were OK AMA - the mad Swedish scientist.
chazwin
Jul 9, 2008, 7:46:01 AM7/9/08
to Epistemology
On Jul 8, 9:26 am, archytas <nwte...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Some of the Muppets were OK AMA - the mad Swedish scientist.
compared.
archytas
Jul 10, 2008, 12:36:24 PM7/10/08
to Epistemology
You self-deeclared Muppet, you Chaz! He was my favourite to, though
best of all was not seeing any of the furry squits! I'd have set them
at war with that bastard form - The Fraggles - with enough ammo to
ensure mutual desttruction!
best of all was not seeing any of the furry squits! I'd have set them
at war with that bastard form - The Fraggles - with enough ammo to
ensure mutual desttruction!
Alex P. Real
Jul 7, 2008, 5:01:53 PM7/7/08
to episte...@googlegroups.com
Hi AMA,
I can see why you're divided and your changing views according to times.
Setting Georges & Chaz's posts aside, the Israel-Palestinian conflict is
multi-angled and its long history provides us with periodical horror stories
on both sides, leaving outsiders rather clueless and at the mercy of
lobby-driven media. When undergrad I conducted some research to try make up
my mind upon the subject. I came across all sorts of views & people:
Pro-Palestinian, pro-Great Jordan, pan-Arabic, pan-Islamic, pan-Islamist,
Jewish-laic-against Israel, Jewish-orthodox-Zionist, Jewish-laic-Zionist,
Jewish-laic-pro-Palestinian (yep, there are)... Besides good friends along
the way, the conclusion I arrived at was resisting manipulation and refusal
to take sides. I respect both parties' pain too much and there are rather
many intervening third-party interests to reach a suitably grounded
judgment. Do we outsiders really have to make a choice? By taking sides
don't we risk reinforcing confrontation? What worries me is the legacy for
those generations growing amidst war (AKA "conflict"). What's the acceptable
toll towards victory? Who benefits from the conflict? 60 yrs are rather long
to believe there are no interests in continuity.
Cheers,
Alex
-----Mensaje original-----
De: episte...@googlegroups.com [mailto:episte...@googlegroups.com] En
nombre de AMA
Enviado el: lunes, 07 de julio de 2008 18:23
Para: Epistemology
Asunto: [epistemology 8921] Re: Trash
AMA
Jul 11, 2008, 6:58:55 PM7/11/08
to Epistemology
Hi Alex,
Actually my heart's leading me to be pro-palestinian according to a
chymeric pan- arabic feeling. This is because of my nationality and
the "religious" education I received.
But, and it's hard to do, when I try to get out of my own cultural
framework, I'm ready to understand the Israelites point of view.
In the country where I grew up, we are faced with "the reality" that
palestinians were, are, looted; their houses are bombed, the children
are killed with bullet when they defend their families with stones,
trees are cut, land is stolen.... I guess that in Israel people are
confronted to another "reality" their facing a country of crazy
mollahs and thousands of people ready to kill, to die, a country of
impure beduins, stupid people come from the desert and unable to
cultivate that secularly holy land.
I got my own sharp view and a defined position but their not neutral.
So I'm able to understand others views and respect them. The only
point is the that way these views can be conveyed and the words used
should not be violent, they must not hurt.
Cheers,
> ...
>
> read more »
Actually my heart's leading me to be pro-palestinian according to a
chymeric pan- arabic feeling. This is because of my nationality and
the "religious" education I received.
But, and it's hard to do, when I try to get out of my own cultural
framework, I'm ready to understand the Israelites point of view.
In the country where I grew up, we are faced with "the reality" that
palestinians were, are, looted; their houses are bombed, the children
are killed with bullet when they defend their families with stones,
trees are cut, land is stolen.... I guess that in Israel people are
confronted to another "reality" their facing a country of crazy
mollahs and thousands of people ready to kill, to die, a country of
impure beduins, stupid people come from the desert and unable to
cultivate that secularly holy land.
I got my own sharp view and a defined position but their not neutral.
So I'm able to understand others views and respect them. The only
point is the that way these views can be conveyed and the words used
should not be violent, they must not hurt.
Cheers,
>
> read more »
archytas
Jul 12, 2008, 9:12:31 AM7/12/08
to Epistemology
There is undoubtably a lobby that wants to bomb Iran and one that
wants to do so to raise barbarian populism to vote for the right. The
complexity is obvious to anyone prepared to look. The question is
always whether we can cut through the idiocy and the way this is used
to rule us all. I have seen what AMA has - though at the distance of
an academic worker in the middle east. Our eldest daughter lives in
Israel and the best part of my month is often shared with Orthodox
Jews at thei table. The problem is hardly ever with ordinary people,
but what they become in the ideologies used to manipulate us. To say
this is trite - the solutions evade us so that even sensible criticism
is somehow part of the problem.
wants to do so to raise barbarian populism to vote for the right. The
complexity is obvious to anyone prepared to look. The question is
always whether we can cut through the idiocy and the way this is used
to rule us all. I have seen what AMA has - though at the distance of
an academic worker in the middle east. Our eldest daughter lives in
Israel and the best part of my month is often shared with Orthodox
Jews at thei table. The problem is hardly ever with ordinary people,
but what they become in the ideologies used to manipulate us. To say
this is trite - the solutions evade us so that even sensible criticism
is somehow part of the problem.
AMA
Jul 12, 2008, 5:58:55 PM7/12/08
to Epistemology
Sensibility is the head corner stone of the problem (solution).
Who can change people can change the world.
I hope peace, safety and good health to your daughter, your family and
you.
Who can change people can change the world.
I hope peace, safety and good health to your daughter, your family and
you.
archytas
Jul 12, 2008, 10:33:41 PM7/12/08
to Epistemology
Here's to that and yours AMA.
chazwin
Jul 14, 2008, 6:01:00 AM7/14/08
to Epistemology
This is a particularly difficult one. As a person with some Jewish
ancestry, but no Arab, and as a person brought up through the 60s and
70s with a media that portrayed the Arabs as the aggressors in the two
big wars of the time, the tendancy was to support the Israeli cause.
But most aggressions have a deeper root cause, and we have to admit
into consideration the formation of the Israeli state which I once
thought was a straightforward and legal possession from the League of
Nations and the United Nations; a legal application of the British
mandate gained after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
There area other factors.
George correctly put me straight on the moment of nationhood: a Jewish
terrorist organization seized control the day before the expiry of the
mandate.
This was back up by the USA who sent 1000s of Sherman tanks to back
up the coup.
From the fall of Ottoman Jews were in a minority in the region, only
reaching 22% by 1948.
The League of Nations who brokered the deal were basically a British
run organisation, that had NO relevant Arabian representatives on the
council. Indeed as Palestine was under the mandate, Britain was its
only representative.
Palestinians (that is the persons actually living in what was to
become Israel), never agreed to Jewish Nationhood.
After 1948 it took a further 20 years or so for Arab nations to build
sufficient arms to challenge the American weaponry of the Israeli
state. Though true that Arabs started the "6day" and "yom Kippur" wars
that does not necessarily make them the original aggresors.
After 60 years one might like to think that Israel is now a fait-
accompli. I would like to think that peace could reign in Palestine.
Then I am not a Palestinian and cannot easily put my feet in his
shoes, and until the Israelis take on their feelings and their
problems directly whilst acknowledging the unprecedented and draconia
methods of the formation of its own existence than there will be no
peace. I do not see any of that happening soon. Neither do I think
that the Palestinians will easily forget the hardships, indignities,
and disenfranchisement that they have suffered and continue to
suffer.
There are parallels with Ireland where the current troubles date back
easily as far as the civil war circa 1650. It has taken this 350 years
of various types of conflict to settle the matter. The current
settlement take into account how people "feel" about their nationality
and religious identity.
The 1998 Belfast Agreement between the British and Irish governments
provides that:
it is the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify
themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may
so choose, and accordingly [the two governments] confirm that their
right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both
Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the
status of Northern Ireland.
Both sides have agreed to the utility and practicality of this
statement. Would this work for Palestine/Israel?
> ...
>
> read more »
ancestry, but no Arab, and as a person brought up through the 60s and
70s with a media that portrayed the Arabs as the aggressors in the two
big wars of the time, the tendancy was to support the Israeli cause.
But most aggressions have a deeper root cause, and we have to admit
into consideration the formation of the Israeli state which I once
thought was a straightforward and legal possession from the League of
Nations and the United Nations; a legal application of the British
mandate gained after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
There area other factors.
George correctly put me straight on the moment of nationhood: a Jewish
terrorist organization seized control the day before the expiry of the
mandate.
This was back up by the USA who sent 1000s of Sherman tanks to back
up the coup.
From the fall of Ottoman Jews were in a minority in the region, only
reaching 22% by 1948.
The League of Nations who brokered the deal were basically a British
run organisation, that had NO relevant Arabian representatives on the
council. Indeed as Palestine was under the mandate, Britain was its
only representative.
Palestinians (that is the persons actually living in what was to
become Israel), never agreed to Jewish Nationhood.
After 1948 it took a further 20 years or so for Arab nations to build
sufficient arms to challenge the American weaponry of the Israeli
state. Though true that Arabs started the "6day" and "yom Kippur" wars
that does not necessarily make them the original aggresors.
After 60 years one might like to think that Israel is now a fait-
accompli. I would like to think that peace could reign in Palestine.
Then I am not a Palestinian and cannot easily put my feet in his
shoes, and until the Israelis take on their feelings and their
problems directly whilst acknowledging the unprecedented and draconia
methods of the formation of its own existence than there will be no
peace. I do not see any of that happening soon. Neither do I think
that the Palestinians will easily forget the hardships, indignities,
and disenfranchisement that they have suffered and continue to
suffer.
There are parallels with Ireland where the current troubles date back
easily as far as the civil war circa 1650. It has taken this 350 years
of various types of conflict to settle the matter. The current
settlement take into account how people "feel" about their nationality
and religious identity.
The 1998 Belfast Agreement between the British and Irish governments
provides that:
it is the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify
themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may
so choose, and accordingly [the two governments] confirm that their
right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both
Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the
status of Northern Ireland.
Both sides have agreed to the utility and practicality of this
statement. Would this work for Palestine/Israel?
>
> read more »
chazwin
Jul 14, 2008, 6:07:02 AM7/14/08
to Epistemology
On Jul 12, 2:12 pm, archytas <nwte...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> There is undoubtably a lobby that wants to bomb Iran and one that
> wants to do so to raise barbarian populism to vote for the right. The
> complexity is obvious to anyone prepared to look. The question is
> always whether we can cut through the idiocy and the way this is used
> to rule us all. I have seen what AMA has - though at the distance of
> an academic worker in the middle east. Our eldest daughter lives in
> Israel and the best part of my month is often shared with Orthodox
> Jews at thei table. The problem is hardly ever with ordinary people,
> but what they become in the ideologies used to manipulate us. To say
> this is trite - the solutions evade us so that even sensible criticism
> is somehow part of the problem.
power, land, prestige, but are they not fed by the masses? Is it a
simple case of the masses being manipulated like dupes? Should not
"ordinary people" take on the responsibility for their views? Can it
be said the the architechs of the Thrid Reich were not encouraged by
the cheering masses, could they have done it without the support of
everyday patriots? Is not the the little man that places the Zyklon-B
into the gas chamber equally as guilty as Hitler?
If they were treated as such maybe things would be different?
>
> read more »
archytas
Jul 14, 2008, 9:59:25 AM7/14/08
to Epistemology
You confuse my intentions a bit Chaz - but generally what you state is
the case. They create a state of governmentality in which there are
such cheering masses - I suspect many really harbour daft notions of
wanting to show the Maddinnerjacket what's for. Difficult to know
what starts such a vicious circle.
the case. They create a state of governmentality in which there are
such cheering masses - I suspect many really harbour daft notions of
wanting to show the Maddinnerjacket what's for. Difficult to know
what starts such a vicious circle.
chazwin
Jul 14, 2008, 11:48:00 AM7/14/08
to Epistemology
On Jul 14, 2:59 pm, archytas <nwte...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> You confuse my intentions a bit Chaz - but generally what you state is
> the case.
telescope. Or would it be better to say using a microscope rather than
a telescope??
"The German people were 100% responsible for Hitler. He was their
monster, and their responsibility." Is this not as valid as blaming
WW2 and the holocaust on Hitler and his cronies? maybe not, but if
such were possible then individuals might be forced to take personal
responsibility?
They create a state of governmentality in which there are
> such cheering masses - I suspect many really harbour daft notions of
> wanting to show the Maddinnerjacket what's for. Difficult to know
> what starts such a vicious circle.
by the press and I keep trying to find the j"obvious" ustification
for him to forebear on the acquisition of nukes when so many others
around him have theirs.
>
> read more »
AMA
Jul 14, 2008, 3:05:03 PM7/14/08
to Epistemology
Hi don't you think that propaganda that mastered by the Reich could
manipulate people.
In this case we can say that they were volunteers but under the
"spell" of that Magic power that Hitler got.
He really knew how to convince them (sometimes with "fake" scientific
evidences) that they really were superior to all the other races and
that the Jews were at their opposite in his Scale.
Also like those White Christians (all along the 19th century) that
went through Africa to Christianise the wild black populations. The
bloody issue between the Utus and the Tutsis is a direct consequence
of colonization. White scientists "proved" that one of the Utus or the
Tutsis (can't remember) had a bigger skull than the other tribe, so
they were "classified" as being more "intelligent" (as far a black man
can be) and thus they were affected to "intellectual" function while
the others were hand workers. But behind all this propaganda stood the
church in a complicity with the political power. The masses were (are)
easy to manipulate.
> ...
>
> read more »
manipulate people.
In this case we can say that they were volunteers but under the
"spell" of that Magic power that Hitler got.
He really knew how to convince them (sometimes with "fake" scientific
evidences) that they really were superior to all the other races and
that the Jews were at their opposite in his Scale.
Also like those White Christians (all along the 19th century) that
went through Africa to Christianise the wild black populations. The
bloody issue between the Utus and the Tutsis is a direct consequence
of colonization. White scientists "proved" that one of the Utus or the
Tutsis (can't remember) had a bigger skull than the other tribe, so
they were "classified" as being more "intelligent" (as far a black man
can be) and thus they were affected to "intellectual" function while
the others were hand workers. But behind all this propaganda stood the
church in a complicity with the political power. The masses were (are)
easy to manipulate.
>
> read more »
chazwin
Jul 14, 2008, 3:52:32 PM7/14/08
to Epistemology
On Jul 14, 8:05 pm, AMA <andalibmed...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi don't you think that propaganda that mastered by the Reich could
> manipulate people.
flattered by being called superior. In the same way Hitler flattered
himself.
>
> In this case we can say that they were volunteers but under the
> "spell" of that Magic power that Hitler got.
>
> He really knew how to convince them (sometimes with "fake" scientific
> evidences) that they really were superior to all the other races and
> that the Jews were at their opposite in his Scale.
people to take responsibility. Which type are you?
>
> Also like those White Christians (all along the 19th century) that
> went through Africa to Christianise the wild black populations. The
> bloody issue between the Utus and the Tutsis is a direct consequence
> of colonization.
pastorlaist community (Tutsi aristocracy) taking over the management
of a more docile sedentary agricultualist community (Hutu).[This is a
common model of invasion expansion, most characterized by the Mongol
empire]. The German imperialists employed this( once racial division
which had become, through social mobility and intermarriage, more of a
class distinction), difference to more easily rule the country. But
the distinction was already present and had less to do with race than
class. Not even hutu and tutsi can tell each other apart.
Science has more lately measured Y chromesome to prove that there is
almost no difference between the two groups. Difference in physical
size is due wholly to differences in diet. The richer Tutsi enjoying
protein rich food, whilst the Hutu depend on carbo-hydrates.
Cite Wiki { Rodney (1972) argued that the physical differences were a
result of social development, namely that the Twa's diminutive stature
was a result of chronic malnutrition resulting from their hunter-
gatherer lifestyle and that Tutsi physical stature was a result of a
pastoralist protein-rich diet compared to the relatively poor food
available to the agriculturalist Hutu.}
Paradoxiaclly the Genocide was as a result of this study - which whist
it denied any racial differences, pointed out that he Hutu were poorly
fed and undernourished.
White scientists "proved" that one of the Utus or the
> Tutsis (can't remember) had a bigger skull than the other tribe, so
> they were "classified" as being more "intelligent" (as far a black man
> can be) and thus they were affected to "intellectual" function while
> the others were hand workers. But behind all this propaganda stood the
> church in a complicity with the political power. The masses were (are)
> easy to manipulate.
>
> read more »
AMA
Jul 14, 2008, 5:29:45 PM7/14/08
to Epistemology
Thank you for sharpening my information.
Sincerely,
> ...
>
> read more »
Sincerely,
>
> read more »
AMA
Jul 14, 2008, 5:31:23 PM7/14/08
to Epistemology
What about propaganda and masses manipulation?
> ...
>
> read more »
>
> read more »
archytas
Jul 14, 2008, 7:18:49 PM7/14/08
to Epistemology
There were claims that Hutus and Tutsis were not really tribes at all,
but segregated by their Belgian colonial masters. I suspect this is
untrue as I read somewhere that the oral histories of the genocides
were hundreds of years old - but I don't know.
I'm not sure Hitler was a monster of the German people - there was a
lot of fascism and super-hero leadership about in the world. The
manipulation of ignorance continues. We have just seen a massive take-
over by conservatism lead to $10,000 dollars apiece for everyone on
the planet being 'invested' in debt insurance and have hardly batted
an eye.
but segregated by their Belgian colonial masters. I suspect this is
untrue as I read somewhere that the oral histories of the genocides
were hundreds of years old - but I don't know.
I'm not sure Hitler was a monster of the German people - there was a
lot of fascism and super-hero leadership about in the world. The
manipulation of ignorance continues. We have just seen a massive take-
over by conservatism lead to $10,000 dollars apiece for everyone on
the planet being 'invested' in debt insurance and have hardly batted
an eye.
Alex P. Real
Jul 15, 2008, 4:32:20 AM7/15/08
to episte...@googlegroups.com
Thanks indeed for the food for thought. I've seen both what AMA has and the
uttermost fear in which some Israeli live. Following prior research I
conducted content analysis on media coverage re ME events (UK, US, French,
Spanish, Arabic, Palestinian, Israeli) 2,5 years ago. The approach in
Israeli English-speaking media differed substantially from elsewhere at
times of crisis. Fear of external threat and the daunt of further war might
lead to what may be perceived as "overreaction" in other contexts. The
kidnapping of two soldiers led to massive response, but the fear of invasion
was very real in Israeli media and chat rooms. I agree that every individual
is responsible for his/her own deeds but socio-cultural frameworks play a
decisive role shaping perceptions. If individuals believe their life is at
peril, are they overreacting? On the other hand, we've all seen Palestinian
kids portrayed with Kalashnikov or fighting tanks with stones. How can
parents allow this is for sure one reading, but when there is nothing left
what's the alternative? Would the international community otherwise
remember? Is it more rational to let oneself be killed or to do it by own
hand inflicting casualties upon the "enemy"? A little bit more complex than
Paradise rewards stereotyped in the media. Doesn't this somewhat recall the
Prisoner's Dilemma?
uttermost fear in which some Israeli live. Following prior research I
conducted content analysis on media coverage re ME events (UK, US, French,
Spanish, Arabic, Palestinian, Israeli) 2,5 years ago. The approach in
Israeli English-speaking media differed substantially from elsewhere at
times of crisis. Fear of external threat and the daunt of further war might
lead to what may be perceived as "overreaction" in other contexts. The
kidnapping of two soldiers led to massive response, but the fear of invasion
was very real in Israeli media and chat rooms. I agree that every individual
is responsible for his/her own deeds but socio-cultural frameworks play a
decisive role shaping perceptions. If individuals believe their life is at
peril, are they overreacting? On the other hand, we've all seen Palestinian
kids portrayed with Kalashnikov or fighting tanks with stones. How can
parents allow this is for sure one reading, but when there is nothing left
what's the alternative? Would the international community otherwise
remember? Is it more rational to let oneself be killed or to do it by own
hand inflicting casualties upon the "enemy"? A little bit more complex than
Paradise rewards stereotyped in the media. Doesn't this somewhat recall the
Prisoner's Dilemma?
I don't support islamiyyin movements, but who has been feeding, clothing,
schooling the needy for years in many Arab countries? Probably not pertinent
outside a Muslim context, but one of the most effective tools to counteract
them is Islam itself to highlight manipulations. Force maybe THE defensive
tool, but when making use of it are not pre-conceptions reinforced?
Holocaust was possibly the most hideous event in humankind. Remembrance is
imperative to honour victims and avoid repetition, but I don't quite follow
the application of such an atrocious memory to current ME conflict.
Re WWII and German citizen support to Hitler, for the sake of balance isn't
WWI toll being left aside? Didn't Hitler win the election before disclosing
his genocide agenda? Wasn't one of his original aims to re-build pre-WWI
grandeur? Weren't there also substantial non-Jew Germans gassed? Massive
sterilization? Experimentation? Not to forget 1 million gypsies. Did every
German citizen knew and supported it? Any room for visible opposition in a
totalitarian regime? Weren't there open conflicts between the Wehrmach and
SS? Why did other European countries looked to another side for such a long
time? Was internationalization associated to stopping genocide? It sadly
seems not. Stalin didn't match Hitler but his track of Jewish killing was
also impressive, so maybe analysis of the Holocaust origins should be linked
to the context since late 19th C progroms and Romanticism intellectual
discourse.
Post-WWII psychological research on the authoritative character, influence
and submission phenomena, drawing on research by Adorno, Horkheimer & Fromm
illustrated how easily anybody could follow "crazy" instructions and
leadership. If I remember correctly one of them involved "guinea pigs"
believing they were inflicting electric shocks to an actor behind a glass
window, and fake death was not unusual.
Alex
-----Mensaje original-----
De: episte...@googlegroups.com [mailto:episte...@googlegroups.com] En
nombre de chazwin
Enviado el: lunes, 14 de julio de 2008 12:07
Para: Epistemology
Asunto: [epistemology 8964] Re: Trash
chazwin
Jul 16, 2008, 6:35:32 AM7/16/08
to Epistemology
its citizens? Is the tragedy any worse that the personal tragedy
suffered by thousands of British households who lost loved ones during
the Blitz? Or indeed the people of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki?
Further the "holocaust" has ceised to include Gypsies, Mentally
disabled, and the other categories that suffered and is now a crime
against Jews alone.
The Holocaust is a media propoganda event for zionists. It continues
to victimise 2nd and 3 rd generation Jews, making it equally as hard
to get on with their lives. Rememberance is one thing, but turning it
into a media event and a cause celebre is another matter.
Remembrance is
> imperative to honour victims and avoid repetition, but I don't quite follow
> the application of such an atrocious memory to current ME conflict.
the horror was fresh in the mind of the British Mandate? If the Jews
had not suffered this genocide the British would not have provided the
opening they did.
>
> Re WWII and German citizen support to Hitler, for the sake of balance isn't
> WWI toll being left aside? Didn't Hitler win the election before disclosing
> his genocide agenda? Wasn't one of his original aims to re-build pre-WWI
> grandeur? Weren't there also substantial non-Jew Germans gassed? Massive
> sterilization? Experimentation? Not to forget 1 million gypsies
They are forgotten and Hitler won that part of his hate war.
>
> read more »
Alex P. Real
Jul 16, 2008, 2:39:28 PM7/16/08
to episte...@googlegroups.com
-----Mensaje original-----
De: episte...@googlegroups.com [mailto:episte...@googlegroups.com] En
nombre de chazwin
Enviado el: miércoles, 16 de julio de 2008 12:36
Para: Epistemology
Asunto: [epistemology 8985] Re: Trash
It is indeed difficult to establish a ranking of human horror; from my point of view it’s the perfect “rational” state planning, the scale and extreme documentation of extermination that leads Nazism to higher positions.
Remembrance is
> imperative to honour victims and avoid repetition, but I don't quite
> the application of such an atrocious memory to current ME conflict.
Indeed - but does it happen? Was not the state of Israel formed whilst
the horror was fresh in the mind of the British Mandate? If the Jews
had not suffered this genocide the British would not have provided the
opening they did.
Sure, I was referring to what you’ve termed media propaganda and the cynical few who use the magnitude of holocaust to minimize Palestinian casualties.
>
> Re WWII and German citizen support to Hitler, for the sake of balance isn't
> WWI toll being left aside? Didn't Hitler win the election before disclosing
> his genocide agenda? Wasn't one of his original aims to re-build pre-WWI
> grandeur? Weren't there also substantial non-Jew Germans gassed? Massive
> sterilization? Experimentation? Not to forget 1 million gypsies
Sadly there is no one now to represent this part of the holocaust.
They are forgotten and Hitler won that part of his hate war.
Nazis documented every act extremely well and there has been substantial research from every angle aimed at how and why it happened, including ordinary citizens, very relevant if wanting to avoid repetition.
ornamentalmind
Jul 16, 2008, 3:56:35 PM7/16/08
to Epistemology
Two associated topics:
RE:"Weren't there also substantial non-Jew Germans gassed? Massive
I am one of the persons in the Holocaust History Project that replies
to questions from our readers. It is possible that you will receive
other replies from my colleagues.
The first camp to use colored badges to identify their prisoners was
Dachau. Their color scheme can be viewed at the following site:
http://www.igc.org/ddickerson/dachau-badges.html
The main classifications were:
Political - Red
Criminal - Green
Antisocial - Black
Homosexual - Pink
Emigrant - Blue
Jehovah's Witness - Purple
Jews - Yellow
The badges were usually in the form of triangles. A Jewish
"antisocial" might then wear a yellow patch with a black one placed in
such a way that together they form a star. The badges could also have
lettering and other symbols. I would presume that intellectuals were
probably considered to be political prisoners, but I am not certain.
The Dachau badges don't appear to be significantly different to the
badges used in Auschwitz. You might wish to see the response my
colleague, Yale Edeiken, made to a similar question:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/triangles.shtml
Yours sincerely,
Harry W. Mazal OBE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: "Sure, I was referring to what you’ve termed media propaganda and
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/jimmy-carter-speaks-out-for-human-rights-in-gaza/
On Jul 16, 11:39 am, "Alex P. Real" <alex.pr...@googlemail.com>
RE:"Weren't there also substantial non-Jew Germans gassed? Massive
sterilization? Experimentation? Not to forget 1 million gypsies"
Harry W. Mazal OBE responds:
I am one of the persons in the Holocaust History Project that replies
to questions from our readers. It is possible that you will receive
other replies from my colleagues.
The first camp to use colored badges to identify their prisoners was
Dachau. Their color scheme can be viewed at the following site:
http://www.igc.org/ddickerson/dachau-badges.html
The main classifications were:
Political - Red
Criminal - Green
Antisocial - Black
Homosexual - Pink
Emigrant - Blue
Jehovah's Witness - Purple
Jews - Yellow
The badges were usually in the form of triangles. A Jewish
"antisocial" might then wear a yellow patch with a black one placed in
such a way that together they form a star. The badges could also have
lettering and other symbols. I would presume that intellectuals were
probably considered to be political prisoners, but I am not certain.
The Dachau badges don't appear to be significantly different to the
badges used in Auschwitz. You might wish to see the response my
colleague, Yale Edeiken, made to a similar question:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/triangles.shtml
Yours sincerely,
Harry W. Mazal OBE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: "Sure, I was referring to what you’ve termed media propaganda and
the cynical
few who use the magnitude of holocaust to minimize Palestinian
casualties."
President Carter speaks out against cruelty in Gaza
few who use the magnitude of holocaust to minimize Palestinian
casualties."
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/jimmy-carter-speaks-out-for-human-rights-in-gaza/
On Jul 16, 11:39 am, "Alex P. Real" <alex.pr...@googlemail.com>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
chazwin
Jul 16, 2008, 6:54:30 PM7/16/08
to Epistemology
Of course! But the simple fact that you have to ask the question only
goes to show that the Holocaust has become a Jewish media circus.
> President Carter speaks out against cruelty in Gazahttp://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/jimmy-carter-speaks-out-f...
> ...
>
> read more »
goes to show that the Holocaust has become a Jewish media circus.
>
> read more »
ornamentalmind
Jul 16, 2008, 8:17:41 PM7/16/08
to Epistemology
Perhaps I haven't been keeping up with the topic.
I know that one person here was, rhetorically perhaps, asking about
the different 'additional' classes of people held, tortured and killed
in 'the Holocaust'. I don't know how old this person is.
When somehow "the simple fact that you have to ask the question..."
apparently anthropomorphizing humanity as a whole rather than
recognizing that details fade over time as generations die out and is
then suggested as being a cause and/or a result of what has been
presented by one of the specific groups, Jews, and additionally then
characterizes this presentation as being a 'media circus' clearly is
as much propaganda as is that presented as being such.
.
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know that one person here was, rhetorically perhaps, asking about
the different 'additional' classes of people held, tortured and killed
in 'the Holocaust'. I don't know how old this person is.
When somehow "the simple fact that you have to ask the question..."
apparently anthropomorphizing humanity as a whole rather than
recognizing that details fade over time as generations die out and is
then suggested as being a cause and/or a result of what has been
presented by one of the specific groups, Jews, and additionally then
characterizes this presentation as being a 'media circus' clearly is
as much propaganda as is that presented as being such.
.
zinnic
Jul 17, 2008, 12:11:25 AM7/17/08
to Epistemology
On Jul 16, 7:17 pm, ornamentalmind <ornamentalm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Perhaps I haven't been keeping up with the topic.
> I know that one person here was, rhetorically perhaps, asking about
> the different 'additional' classes of people held, tortured and killed
> in 'the Holocaust'. I don't know how old this person is.
> When somehow "the simple fact that you have to ask the question..."
> apparently anthropomorphizing humanity as a whole rather than
> recognizing that details fade over time as generations die out and is
> then suggested as being a cause and/or a result of what has been
> presented by one of the specific groups, Jews, and additionally then
> characterizes this presentation as being a 'media circus' clearly is
> as much propaganda as is that presented as being such.
> >
>
Occasionally, I peek into into Epistemology to check if the "know it
alls" have finally had their say. That their contempt for
imperfections of human motivations and actions has subsided to the
extent that they now address solutions for current problems that
inevitably have arisen from past actions. There is no turning back
the clock. Let us try to make the very best omelette from what we
have. Eggs once broken and mixed cannot be reconstituted.
Will keep on checking this NG. Hope rises eternal!
Zinnic
chazwin
Jul 17, 2008, 3:53:58 AM7/17/08
to Epistemology
On Jul 17, 1:17 am, ornamentalmind <ornamentalm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Perhaps I haven't been keeping up with the topic.
> I know that one person here was, rhetorically perhaps, asking about
> the different 'additional' classes of people held, tortured and killed
> in 'the Holocaust'. I don't know how old this person is.
> When somehow "the simple fact that you have to ask the question..."
> apparently anthropomorphizing humanity as a whole
humaniaty as a whole..."? - are you crazy?
rather than
> recognizing that details fade over time as generations die out and is
> then suggested as being a cause and/or a result of what has been
> presented by one of the specific groups, Jews, and additionally then
> characterizes this presentation as being a 'media circus' clearly is
> as much propaganda as is that presented as being such.
think of Jews in gas chambers, they being the only interest group who
has a large core following and media circus. The only other one who
does is homosexuals. I cannot say why homosexuals do not consider the
holocaust to be an appropriate item for publicity. Perhaps they do
not wish to upset their recent progress by reminding queer bashers how
they might be made to suffer in the future - maybe they are just a
more forward looking individualist kind of group, and good luck to
them.
Alex P. Real
Jul 17, 2008, 7:54:21 AM7/17/08
to episte...@googlegroups.com
All questions were rhetorical to point out to other victims (Germans and
not), though cut & paste and a growing thread may convey a different
impression; anyway my post was rather long. Sorry where I may not have
expressed myself accurately.
It's difficult to tackle every sensibility and words can lead to readings
one doesn't really expect, but I don't quite follow why the very pertinent
reference to Dachau badges was associated to an address by Carter. I didn't
perceive any reference to US foreign policy, though some subtleties may be
lost upon me. The "cynical few" I personally had in mind are those
supporters of Israeli views who block any conversation on ME conflict by
making reference to Holocaust. Fortunately few, because such attitude
actually deters further external understanding and support (at least in
Europe), and might provide further arguments to some of most radical Arab
views; and these may feed and make convenient use of veritable dangerous
"revisionism".
In some European countries "Israel's use of the Holocaust in the ME
conflict" is a rather spread and dangerous argument, besides trivialization
it fuels anti-Semitism. Illegal and/or politically incorrect but not
vanished.
nombre de ornamentalmind
Enviado el: jueves, 17 de julio de 2008 2:18
Para: Epistemology
Asunto: [epistemology 9003] Re: Trash
not), though cut & paste and a growing thread may convey a different
impression; anyway my post was rather long. Sorry where I may not have
expressed myself accurately.
It's difficult to tackle every sensibility and words can lead to readings
one doesn't really expect, but I don't quite follow why the very pertinent
reference to Dachau badges was associated to an address by Carter. I didn't
perceive any reference to US foreign policy, though some subtleties may be
lost upon me. The "cynical few" I personally had in mind are those
supporters of Israeli views who block any conversation on ME conflict by
making reference to Holocaust. Fortunately few, because such attitude
actually deters further external understanding and support (at least in
Europe), and might provide further arguments to some of most radical Arab
views; and these may feed and make convenient use of veritable dangerous
"revisionism".
In some European countries "Israel's use of the Holocaust in the ME
conflict" is a rather spread and dangerous argument, besides trivialization
it fuels anti-Semitism. Illegal and/or politically incorrect but not
vanished.
nombre de ornamentalmind
Enviado el: jueves, 17 de julio de 2008 2:18
Para: Epistemology
Asunto: [epistemology 9003] Re: Trash
ornamentalmind
Jul 17, 2008, 3:19:40 PM7/17/08
to Epistemology
Perhaps we are from different eras too.
I remember as a child the numerous magazine articles, photos and
movies that showed not only the mounds of dead starved bodies but also
the 'medical' experimentation inflicted on twins, women, the grossly
mentally impaired, the gypsies etc. These were not only in news clips
but were and still are shown and/or made the topics of articles,
movies, books etc.
I will admit that here in the homophobic US I saw and read little
about the homosexuals until the last decade or two. They *were*
mentioned, but only in passing. Now it too is the topic of movies and
TV programs that I've seen.
All of this is but to share that I know that the majority of the focus
was and is placed on Jews, who were the majority of those held in
concentration camps. And, perhaps since there was less focus on the
rest of those interred, members here may not have been exposed to that
which has and is being presented.
I remember as a child the numerous magazine articles, photos and
movies that showed not only the mounds of dead starved bodies but also
the 'medical' experimentation inflicted on twins, women, the grossly
mentally impaired, the gypsies etc. These were not only in news clips
but were and still are shown and/or made the topics of articles,
movies, books etc.
I will admit that here in the homophobic US I saw and read little
about the homosexuals until the last decade or two. They *were*
mentioned, but only in passing. Now it too is the topic of movies and
TV programs that I've seen.
All of this is but to share that I know that the majority of the focus
was and is placed on Jews, who were the majority of those held in
concentration camps. And, perhaps since there was less focus on the
rest of those interred, members here may not have been exposed to that
which has and is being presented.
archytas
Jul 19, 2008, 8:43:20 PM7/19/08
to Epistemology
There was a time when concentration camps primarily held women in
order to force submission of the men. This was the case in the Boer
War and in the dreadful techniques used in forcing Africans to work in
rubber harvesting. The revolting use of 'scientific management' in
the latter is also reflected amongst the Nazis.
order to force submission of the men. This was the case in the Boer
War and in the dreadful techniques used in forcing Africans to work in
rubber harvesting. The revolting use of 'scientific management' in
the latter is also reflected amongst the Nazis.
chazwin
Jul 20, 2008, 6:03:50 AM7/20/08
to Epistemology
It is certainly worth remembering that the British invented the modern
concentration camp in S. Africa. But as they same history teaches us
that we learn nothing from history. The Romans had concentration camps
in Dacia where they held Goths who were refugees from the Huns. They
had been offered lands in the empire but were being held as a kind of
buffer against the Hunish invaders. Most of them perished of hunger
and were selling their daughters to Romans soldiers for dogmeat before
the end.
I think it is important for all, especially the Jews, that ALL the
groups held in concentration camps should be remembered. Need I say
why?
> ...
>
> read more »
concentration camp in S. Africa. But as they same history teaches us
that we learn nothing from history. The Romans had concentration camps
in Dacia where they held Goths who were refugees from the Huns. They
had been offered lands in the empire but were being held as a kind of
buffer against the Hunish invaders. Most of them perished of hunger
and were selling their daughters to Romans soldiers for dogmeat before
the end.
I think it is important for all, especially the Jews, that ALL the
groups held in concentration camps should be remembered. Need I say
why?
>
> read more »
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