Recently Joe Zorzin proposed a new topic to ENTS for discussion, namely that of the value of old growth forests and how some of the values that we Ents perceive in old growth ecosystems might be captured and retained by management strategies that seek to create near-old growth conditions. Joe has presented the challenge. I will start the ball rolling with this communication, hopefully to be followed by input from wiser heads and deeper thinkers. Before commencing, though, I want to emphasize that the opinions and feelings I am about to express are strictly my own. In this first e-mail, I will not try to cover the spectrum of considerations inherent in a conceptual framework of value. I don’t feel myself qualified to speak to all potential values of old growth. However, with no false modesty, I believe myself qualified to speak on both the tangibles and intangibles that lie along an approach that draws on the historical, is partly scientific, always aesthetic, and includ es an all-important personal spiritual component. The above ingredients create a kind of old growth value potpourri, and each of us has the power to blend these ingredients to create a personalized old growth value stew. For some Ents, value will lie in the uniqueness of a blend. However, it is toward the largely spiritual nature of old growth that I will initially speak.
The Dawning
To the best of my recollection, the earliest stirring of feelings for old growth forests occurred in my youth while living a couple of years in Knoxville, Tennessee. As I literally stared for the first time at the cloud-capped heights and timeless forests of the Great Smoky Mountains, something stirred inside me. I was 11 years old at the time and infatuated with mountains. I was also a tree aficionado, but in those days, I was most attracted to the West Coast giants. Redwoods, sequoias, and Douglas fir were the species that held my attention and that I longed to see. Other than feeling admiration for individual trees, and playing in local woodlands, eastern forests served mainly as a break to the surrounding fields outside of Knoxville, and more significantly, as a covering for the ancient ridges of the Cumberlands and Blue Ridge. On that initial trip, gazing at the distant Smokies and their carpet of dense forests, it was as if I was unconsciously acknowledging a familiar form from a source deep within my greater self. As I recall, we were heading to the Smokies from Knoxville, TN, to stay a few days in a cabin my rich uncle from Florida had rented for us. The Smokies were magical. I immediately fell in love with them. There were bears, Indians, mountains, and fine forests. I found myself having a new forest experience. My West Coast preferences not withstanding, the shaggy tree covering of the Great Smoky Mountains that surrounded us created in me a nascent yearning, a yearning that my young mind could not readily understand. There was something especially primitive and majestic looking in the red spruce spires I observed high on the ridges. The spruce and fir distinguished the skyline of the Great Smoky Mountains in a way completely new to me. Once we reached the interior of the Smokies, forest-clad high peaks surrounded us on all sides, but one scene especially imprinted itself in my memory banks. For countless visitors, the peaks of the Chimneys make an indelible impression. They did no less for me and the Chimney impact was greatly enhanced by the red spruce spires on the ridge connecting the heath-choked tops of the Chimneys with the main ridgeline of the Smokies. The forests of that connecting ridge presented an image distinctly unlike the woodlands of the Tennessee lowlands with which I was accustomed. The red spruce spires seemed to call to me in some distant way as if I were recalling a past memory grown so dim that all the details were missing with just a shadowy shape remaining. Little did I realize then that the Smokies would launch a many-years-delayed search for ancient eastern forests in the forests of the Northeast as well as in the southern Appalachians. But the Smokies remained my forest icon . In later years, the giant “poplars” along the lowland trails helped quench my ever-present thirst for the sight of big trees. I knew that had not seen anything in the East quite like those columnar forms of giant tulip poplars rising through the dense thickets of rhododendron. In the 1950s, most of the southern forests were young second growth, nondescript, and wimpy. Old growth was not even a concept in the southern mind. Yet, I do believe that at a deep subconscious level, an awareness was developing, an image was forming in my synapses of what a real eastern forest should look like. I was ultimately to come to understand that a forest was not just an assembly of tree trunks. For certain, big trees helped, but a complete forest they do not make. That took a gestalt of forms. One must be able to gaze up into large fan-shaped crowns of emergent forms. Big limbs aloft must fill space high above one’s head and provide diverse habitat for an abundance of tree-dwelling plan ts and animals – a village in the tree tops. At ground level, extensive root structures must speak to nesting and den sites. In real old growth, one feels that one is in the domain of hobbits, elves and forest devas.
The Maturing of the Vision
With a forest past deeply rooted in the southern Appalachians, I can finally articulate, from my current New England perch, what distinguishes old growth for me and what values I associate with our remnant ancient eastern forests. But, I’m getting ahead of myself. In the mid-1980s, I was searching the ravines and ridge sides of the Berkshires for old growth remnants. The thrill of discovery fueled my passions. But the appeal went far beyond the emotional high of discovery. When I encountered an old growth specimen of exceptional proportions, I increasingly saw the forest elders of the Berkshires as living connectors to both an ecological and historical past. The trees served as historical time and place markers, and as one with a nostalgic streak, the old trees gave me a palpable link to the colonial and pre-colonial New England past. I never get that in sterile museum displays presented in glass enclosures or even the most artistic recreations of early forests. But the connection goes far beyond historical connections. Most importantly, when in the presence of old growth, I feel a deeper connection to the Earth and its twisted evolutionary path that I do not experience in post-colonial woodlands, even second growth with large trees. From their auspicious beginning in 1993, the eastern old growth conferences piled up, and I came to increasingly think along scientific lines - I thought of the old growth survivors that we were documenting as living scientific laboratories with many mysteries left to unravel. Perhaps that was their greatest value. My research interests were expanding, but there were plenty of highly accomplished scientists to build the case for retaining old growth remnants as baselines for evaluating environmental changes and to decoding their many mysteries. Other than my growing appetite for forest and tree quantifications and listening to what distinguished scientists were learning about old growth ecosystems, I left it up to the hardcore scientific community to build the a case for value along scientific lines. I continue to feel a strong need to statistically document what I see, but it is not a zero sum game for me. I have remained keenly aware that I am pulled toward individual trees and sites more than others and I continue to wonder why. The answer almost assuredly lies in the nonphysical realm. There is an un-distilled forest elixir at work in my favorite old growth sites. The elixir allows me to transcend the purely visual content of the assemblages of trees, shrubs, herbs, mosses, and the animal citizenry. The old growth spots distill and concentrate a special woodland elixir of the greatest potency – one when partaken induces mental images of a distant past, of a slow, but inexorable march of the species, of life forms becoming all they can be. It is a thirst for this transcendental experience that repeatedly sends me back into the forest. Although, I may express myself publicly and on our ENTS list through tree measurements and mathematical formulae, there is far more subsurface to the subject.
Through Older Eyes
As the years have slipped by, I often think of putting my thoughts about the old growth down onto paper. I want to assure myself as well as others that the appeal of eastern old growth forests has not diminished for me. I still get an uplifted feeling from my walks through corridors of centuries old trees. I still pause to sense their antiquity, and yes, measure their heights. I am inclined to want to more frequently express in public my deep appreciation for being lucky enough to experience old growth elixir in undiluted form. I have also come to a sense of peace about forest processes. I have no desire to change the old woods. I want to let them be. I know that my favored stands will always be in a state of passing and that insects and blights will relentlessly attack them. The older woods will always be in a state of passing, of being replaced by younger woods that possess potential and carry the genetic heritage of their ancestors, but not yet of age or forest wisdo m. That role will remain with the elders. Younger trees cannot match the timeless wisdom of the elders. Each new woodland must first prove itself and from among them merge the giants. Not all are destined to become a Congaree, a Cataloochee, a Hartwick Pines, a Cook Forest, or even a Mohawk Trail State Forest. But whether a site is a declared old growth icon or a place
...
That forest elixir is also addictive! Due to longer hours at work and
preparations for marriage my getting into the woods has been a bit
slim lately. I am having withdrawal symptoms!
> Recently Joe Zorzin proposed a new topic to ENTS for discussion, namely that of the value of old growth forests and how some of the values that we Ents perceive in old growth ecosystems might be captured and retained by management strategies that seek to create near-old growth conditions. Joe has presented the challenge. I will start the ball rolling with this communication, hopefully to be followed by input from wiser heads and deeper thinkers. Before commencing, though, I want to emphasize that the opinions and feelings I am about to express are strictly my own. In this first e-mail, I will not try to cover the spectrum of considerations inherent in a conceptual framework of value. I don't feel myself qualified to speak to all potential values of old growth. However, with no false modesty, I believe myself qualified to speak on both the tangibles and intangibles that lie along an approach that draws on the historical, is partly scientific, always aesthetic, and includ
> es an all-important personal spiritual component. The above ingredients create a kind of old growth value potpourri, and each of us has the power to blend these ingredients to create a personalized old growth value stew. For some Ents, value will lie in the uniqueness of a blend. However, it is toward the largely spiritual nature of old growth that I will initially speak.
> The Dawning
> To the best of my recollection, the earliest stirring of feelings for old growth forests occurred in my youth while living a couple of years in Knoxville, Tennessee. As I literally stared for the first time at the cloud-capped heights and timeless forests of the Great Smoky Mountains, something stirred inside me. I was 11 years old at the time and infatuated with mountains. I was also a tree aficionado, but in those days, I was most attracted to the West Coast giants. Redwoods, sequoias, and Douglas fir were the species that held my attention and that I longed to see. Other than feeling admiration for individual trees, and playing in local woodlands, eastern forests served mainly as a break to the surrounding fields outside of Knoxville, and more significantly, as a covering for the ancient ridges of the Cumberlands and Blue Ridge.
> On that initial trip, gazing at the distant Smokies and their carpet of dense forests, it was as if I was unconsciously acknowledging a familiar form from a source deep within my greater self. As I recall, we were heading to the Smokies from Knoxville, TN, to stay a few days in a cabin my rich uncle from Florida had rented for us. The Smokies were magical. I immediately fell in love with them. There were bears, Indians, mountains, and fine forests. I found myself having a new forest experience. My West Coast preferences not withstanding, the shaggy tree covering of the Great Smoky Mountains that surrounded us created in me a nascent yearning, a yearning that my young mind could not readily understand. There was something especially primitive and majestic looking in the red spruce spires I observed high on the ridges. The spruce and fir distinguished the skyline of the Great Smoky Mountains in a way completely new to me.
> Once we reached the interior of the Smokies, forest-clad high peaks surrounded us on all sides, but one scene especially imprinted itself in my memory banks. For countless visitors, the peaks of the Chimneys make an indelible impression. They did no less for me and the Chimney impact was greatly enhanced by the red spruce spires on the ridge connecting the heath-choked tops of the Chimneys with the main ridgeline of the Smokies. The forests of that connecting ridge presented an image distinctly unlike the woodlands of the Tennessee lowlands with which I was accustomed. The red spruce spires seemed to call to me in some distant way as if I were recalling a past memory grown so dim that all the details were missing with just a shadowy shape remaining. Little did I realize then that the Smokies would launch a many-years-delayed search for ancient eastern forests in the forests of the Northeast as well as in the southern Appalachians. But the Smokies remained my forest icon
> .
> In later years, the giant "poplars" along the lowland trails helped quench my ever-present thirst for the sight of big trees. I knew that had not seen anything in the East quite like those columnar forms of giant tulip poplars rising through the dense thickets of rhododendron. In the 1950s, most of the southern forests were young second growth, nondescript, and wimpy. Old growth was not even a concept in the southern mind. Yet, I do believe that at a deep subconscious level, an awareness was developing, an image was forming in my synapses of what a real eastern forest should look like. I was ultimately to come to understand that a forest was not just an assembly of tree trunks. For certain, big trees helped, but a complete forest they do not make. That took a gestalt of forms. One must be able to gaze up into large fan-shaped crowns of emergent forms. Big limbs aloft must fill space high above one's head and provide diverse habitat for an abundance of tree-dwelling plan
> ts and animals - a village in the tree tops. At ground level, extensive root structures must speak to nesting and den sites. In real old growth, one feels that one is in the domain of hobbits, elves and forest devas.
> The Maturing of the Vision
> With a forest past deeply rooted in the southern Appalachians, I can finally articulate, from my current New England perch, what distinguishes old growth for me and what values I associate with our remnant ancient eastern forests. But, I'm getting ahead of myself. In the mid-1980s, I was searching the ravines and ridge sides of the Berkshires for old growth remnants. The thrill of discovery fueled my passions. But the appeal went far beyond the emotional high of discovery. When I encountered an old growth specimen of exceptional proportions, I increasingly saw the forest elders of the Berkshires as living connectors to both an ecological and historical past. The trees served as historical time and place markers, and as one with a nostalgic streak, the old trees gave me a palpable link to the colonial and pre-colonial New England past. I never get that in sterile museum displays presented in glass enclosures or even the most artistic recreations of early forests. But the
> connection goes far beyond historical connections. Most importantly, when in the presence of old growth, I feel a deeper connection to the Earth and its twisted evolutionary path that I do not experience in post-colonial woodlands, even second growth with large trees.
> From their auspicious beginning in 1993, the eastern old growth conferences piled up, and I came to increasingly think along scientific lines - I thought of the old growth survivors that we were documenting as living scientific laboratories with many mysteries left to unravel. Perhaps that was their greatest value. My research interests were expanding, but there were plenty of highly accomplished scientists to build the case for retaining old growth remnants as baselines for evaluating environmental changes and to decoding their many mysteries. Other than my growing appetite for forest and tree quantifications and listening to what distinguished scientists were learning about old growth ecosystems, I left it up to the hardcore scientific community to build the a case for value along scientific lines. I continue to feel a strong need to statistically document what I see, but it is not a zero sum game for me. I have remained keenly aware that I am pulled toward individual
> trees and sites more than others and I continue to wonder why. The answer almost assuredly lies in the nonphysical realm.
> There is an un-distilled forest elixir at work in my favorite old growth sites. The elixir allows me to transcend the purely visual content of the assemblages of trees, shrubs, herbs, mosses, and the animal citizenry. The old growth spots distill and concentrate a special woodland elixir of the greatest potency - one when partaken induces mental images of a distant past, of a slow, but inexorable march of the species, of life forms becoming all they can be. It is a thirst for this transcendental experience that repeatedly sends me back into the forest. Although, I may express myself publicly and on our ENTS list through tree measurements and mathematical formulae, there is far more subsurface to the subject.
> Through Older Eyes
> As the years have slipped by, I often think of putting my thoughts about the old growth down onto paper. I want to assure myself as well as others that the appeal of eastern old growth forests has not diminished for me. I still get an uplifted feeling from my walks through corridors of centuries old trees. I still pause to sense their antiquity, and yes, measure their heights. I am inclined to want to more frequently express in public my deep appreciation for being lucky enough to experience old growth elixir in undiluted form. I have also come to a sense of peace about forest processes. I have no desire to change the old woods. I want to let them be. I know that my favored stands will always be in a state of passing and that insects and blights will relentlessly attack them. The older woods will always be in a state of passing, of being replaced by younger woods that possess potential and carry the genetic heritage of their ancestors, but not yet of age or forest wisdo
> m. That role will remain with the elders. Younger trees
Thanks and congratualtions on your upcoming marriage. Monica and I look forward to meeting you both at the rendezvous in April. I chose to take a different course on the values article. It was my attempt at opening a door to broader, more reflective thoughts about old growth and also to encourage people to tell their personal stories. Hopefully, some Ents will feel comfortable talking about old growth values from a personal, spiritual direction. I'm sure everybody on this list feel have the feelings that are either deeply spiritual or at least border on the spiritual , but talking about them is not always an easy thing to do.
-------------- Original message -------------- From: James Parton <hawthorn_...@yahoo.com>
> Bob,
> That forest elixir is also addictive! Due to longer hours at work and > preparations for marriage my getting into the woods has been a bit > slim lately. I am having withdrawal symptoms!
> Great article!
> James Parton.
> On Feb 8, 6:17 pm, dbhg...@comcast.net wrote: > > ENTS
> > Introduction
> > Recently Joe Zorzin proposed a new topic to ENTS for discussion, > namely that of the value of old growth forests and how some of the values that > we Ents perceive in old growth ecosystems might be captured and retained by > management strategies that seek to create near-old growth conditions. Joe has > presented the challenge. I will start the ball rolling with this communication, > hopefully to be followed by input from wiser heads and deeper thinkers. Before > commencing, though, I want to emphasize that the opinions and feelings I am > about to express are strictly my own. In this first e-mail, I will not try to > cover the spectrum of considerations inherent in a conceptual framework of > value. I don't feel myself qualified to speak to all potential values of old > growth. However, with no false modesty, I believe myself qualified to speak on > both the tangibles and intangibles that lie along an approach that draws on the > historical, is partly scientific, always aesthetic, and includ > > es an all-important personal spiritual component. The above ingredients create > a kind of old growth value potpourri, and each of us has the power to blend > these ingredients to create a personalized old growth value stew. For some Ents, > value will lie in the uniqueness of a blend. However, it is toward the largely > spiritual nature of old growth that I will initially speak.
> > The Dawning
> > To the best of my recollection, the earliest stirring of feelings > for old growth forests occurred in my youth while living a couple of years in > Knoxville, Tennessee. As I literally stared for the first time at the > cloud-capped heights and timeless forests of the Great Smoky Mountains, > something stirred inside me. I was 11 years old at the time and infatuated with > mountains. I was also a tree aficionado, but in those days, I was most attracted > to the West Coast giants. Redwoods, sequoias, and Douglas fir were the species > that held my attention and that I longed to see. Other than feeling admiration > for individual trees, and playing in local woodlands, eastern forests served > mainly as a break to the surrounding fields outside of Knoxville, and more > significantly, as a covering for the ancient ridges of the Cumberlands and Blue > Ridge. > > On that initial trip, gazing at the distant Smokies and their > carpet of dense forests, it was as if I was unconsciously acknowledging a > familiar form from a source deep within my greater self. As I recall, we were > heading to the Smokies from Knoxville, TN, to stay a few days in a cabin my rich > uncle from Florida had rented for us. The Smokies were magical. I immediately > fell in love with them. There were bears, Indians, mountains, and fine forests. > I found myself having a new forest experience. My West Coast preferences not > withstanding, the shaggy tree covering of the Great Smoky Mountains that > surrounded us created in me a nascent yearning, a yearning that my young mind > could not readily understand. There was something especially primitive and > majestic looking in the red spruce spires I observed high on the ridges. The > spruce and fir distinguished the skyline of the Great Smoky Mountains in a way > completely new to me. > > Once we reached the interior of the Smokies, forest-clad high > peaks surrounded us on all sides, but one scene especially imprinted itself in > my memory banks. For countless visitors, the peaks of the Chimneys make an > indelible impression. They did no less for me and the Chimney impact was greatly > enhanced by the red spruce spires on the ridge connecting the heath-choked tops > of the Chimneys with the main ridgeline of the Smokies. The forests of that > connecting ridge presented an image distinctly unlike the woodlands of the > Tennessee lowlands with which I was accustomed. The red spruce spires seemed to > call to me in some distant way as if I were recalling a past memory grown so dim > that all the details were missing with just a shadowy shape remaining. Little > did I realize then that the Smokies would launch a many-years-delayed search for > ancient eastern forests in the forests of the Northeast as well as in the > southern Appalachians. But the Smokies remained my forest icon > > . > > In later years, the giant "poplars" along the lowland trails > helped quench my ever-present thirst for the sight of big trees. I knew that had > not seen anything in the East quite like those columnar forms of giant tulip > poplars rising through the dense thickets of rhododendron. In the 1950s, most of > the southern forests were young second growth, nondescript, and wimpy. Old > growth was not even a concept in the southern mind. Yet, I do believe that at a > deep subconscious level, an awareness was developing, an image was forming in my > synapses of what a real eastern forest should look like. I was ultimately to > come to understand that a forest was not just an assembly of tree trunks. For > certain, big trees helped, but a complete forest they do not make. That took a > gestalt of forms. One must be able to gaze up into large fan-shaped crowns of > emergent forms. Big limbs aloft must fill space high above one's head and > provide diverse habitat for an abundance of tree-dwelling plan > > ts and animals - a village in the tree tops. At ground level, extensive root > structures must speak to nesting and den sites. In real old growth, one feels > that one is in the domain of hobbits, elves and forest devas.
> > The Maturing of the Vision
> > With a forest past deeply rooted in the southern Appalachians, I > can finally articulate, from my current New England perch, what distinguishes > old growth for me and what values I associate with our remnant ancient eastern > forests. But, I'm getting ahead of myself. In the mid-1980s, I was searching the > ravines and ridge sides of the Berkshires for old growth remnants. The thrill of > discovery fueled my passions. But the appeal went far beyond the emotional high > of discovery. When I encountered an old growth specimen of exceptional > proportions, I increasingly saw the forest elders of the Berkshires as living > connectors to both an ecological and historical past. The trees served as > historical time and place markers, and as one with a nostalgic streak, the old > trees gave me a palpable link to the colonial and pre-colonial New England past. > I never get that in sterile museum displays presented in glass enclosures or > even the most artistic recreations of early forests. But the > > connection goes far beyond historical connections. Most importantly, when in > the presence of old growth, I feel a deeper connection to the Earth and its > twisted evolutionary path that I do not experience in post-colonial woodlands, > even second growth with large trees. > > From their auspicious beginning in 1993, the eastern old growth > conferences piled up, and I came to increasingly think along scientific lines - > I thought of the old growth survivors that we were documenting as living > scientific laboratories with many mysteries left to unravel. Perhaps that was > their greatest value. My research interests were expanding, but there were > plenty of highly accomplished scientists to build the case for retaining old > growth remnants as baselines for evaluating environmental changes and to > decoding their many mysteries. Other than my growing appetite for forest and > tree quantifications and listening to what distinguished scientists were > learning about old growth ecosystems, I left it up to the hardcore scientific > community to build the a case for value along scientific lines. I continue to > feel a strong need to statistically document what I see, but it is not a zero > sum game for me. I have remained keenly aware that I am pulled toward individual > > trees and sites more than others and I continue to wonder why. The answer > almost assuredly lies in the nonphysical realm. > > There is an un-distilled forest elixir at work in my favorite old > growth sites. The elixir allows me to transcend the purely visual content of the > assemblages of trees, shrubs, herbs, mosses, and the animal citizenry. The old > growth spots distill and concentrate a special woodland elixir of the greatest > potency - one when partaken induces mental images of a distant past, of a slow, > but inexorable march of the species, of life forms becoming all they can be. It > is a thirst for this transcendental experience that repeatedly sends me back > into the forest. Although, I may express myself publicly and on our ENTS list > through tree measurements and mathematical formulae, there is far more > subsurface to the subject.
Going into the woods is always a spiritual thing for me. But yes, it
is hard to put into words. I guess work has my thought processes
slowed a bit. I will have to think on it.
Thanks on the congratulations, Joy likes the woods too and was with me
on many of my outings last year. Her foot has been giving her trouble
and I am gonna have to get that fixed--~Laughing~.
Yes, I do look forward to the " Entmoot " and meeting both of you.
> Thanks and congratualtions on your upcoming marriage. Monica and I look forward to meeting you both at the rendezvous in April.
> I chose to take a different course on the values article. It was my attempt at opening a door to broader, more reflective thoughts about old growth and also to encourage people to tell their personal stories. Hopefully, some Ents will feel comfortable talking about old growth values from a personal, spiritual direction. I'm sure everybody on this list feel have the feelings that are either deeply spiritual or at least border on the spiritual , but talking about them is not always an easy thing to do.
> Bob
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: James Parton <hawthorn_...@yahoo.com>
> > Bob,
> > That forest elixir is also addictive! Due to longer hours at work and
> > preparations for marriage my getting into the woods has been a bit
> > slim lately. I am having withdrawal symptoms!
> > Great article!
> > James Parton.
> > On Feb 8, 6:17 pm, dbhg...@comcast.net wrote:
> > > ENTS
> > > Introduction
> > > Recently Joe Zorzin proposed a new topic to ENTS for discussion,
> > namely that of the value of old growth forests and how some of the values that
> > we Ents perceive in old growth ecosystems might be captured and retained by
> > management strategies that seek to create near-old growth conditions. Joe has
> > presented the challenge. I will start the ball rolling with this communication,
> > hopefully to be followed by input from wiser heads and deeper thinkers. Before
> > commencing, though, I want to emphasize that the opinions and feelings I am
> > about to express are strictly my own. In this first e-mail, I will not try to
> > cover the spectrum of considerations inherent in a conceptual framework of
> > value. I don't feel myself qualified to speak to all potential values of old
> > growth. However, with no false modesty, I believe myself qualified to speak on
> > both the tangibles and intangibles that lie along an approach that draws on the
> > historical, is partly scientific, always aesthetic, and includ
> > > es an all-important personal spiritual component. The above ingredients create
> > a kind of old growth value potpourri, and each of us has the power to blend
> > these ingredients to create a personalized old growth value stew. For some Ents,
> > value will lie in the uniqueness of a blend. However, it is toward the largely
> > spiritual nature of old growth that I will initially speak.
> > > The Dawning
> > > To the best of my recollection, the earliest stirring of feelings
> > for old growth forests occurred in my youth while living a couple of years in
> > Knoxville, Tennessee. As I literally stared for the first time at the
> > cloud-capped heights and timeless forests of the Great Smoky Mountains,
> > something stirred inside me. I was 11 years old at the time and infatuated with
> > mountains. I was also a tree aficionado, but in those days, I was most attracted
> > to the West Coast giants. Redwoods, sequoias, and Douglas fir were the species
> > that held my attention and that I longed to see. Other than feeling admiration
> > for individual trees, and playing in local woodlands, eastern forests served
> > mainly as a break to the surrounding fields outside of Knoxville, and more
> > significantly, as a covering for the ancient ridges of the Cumberlands and Blue
> > Ridge.
> > > On that initial trip, gazing at the distant Smokies and their
> > carpet of dense forests, it was as if I was unconsciously acknowledging a
> > familiar form from a source deep within my greater self. As I recall, we were
> > heading to the Smokies from Knoxville, TN, to stay a few days in a cabin my rich
> > uncle from Florida had rented for us. The Smokies were magical. I immediately
> > fell in love with them. There were bears, Indians, mountains, and fine forests.
> > I found myself having a new forest experience. My West Coast preferences not
> > withstanding, the shaggy tree covering of the Great Smoky Mountains that
> > surrounded us created in me a nascent yearning, a yearning that my young mind
> > could not readily understand. There was something especially primitive and
> > majestic looking in the red spruce spires I observed high on the ridges. The
> > spruce and fir distinguished the skyline of the Great Smoky Mountains in a way
> > completely new to me.
> > > Once we reached the interior of the Smokies, forest-clad high
> > peaks surrounded us on all sides, but one scene especially imprinted itself in
> > my memory banks. For countless visitors, the peaks of the Chimneys make an
> > indelible impression. They did no less for me and the Chimney impact was greatly
> > enhanced by the red spruce spires on the ridge connecting the heath-choked tops
> > of the Chimneys with the main ridgeline of the Smokies. The forests of that
> > connecting ridge presented an image distinctly unlike the woodlands of the
> > Tennessee lowlands with which I was accustomed. The red spruce spires seemed to
> > call to me in some distant way as if I were recalling a past memory grown so dim
> > that all the details were missing with just a shadowy shape remaining. Little
> > did I realize then that the Smokies would launch a many-years-delayed search for
> > ancient eastern forests in the forests of the Northeast as well as in the
> > southern Appalachians. But the Smokies remained my forest icon
> > > .
> > > In later years, the giant "poplars" along the lowland trails
> > helped quench my ever-present thirst for the sight of big trees. I knew that had
> > not seen anything in the East quite like those columnar forms of giant tulip
> > poplars rising through the dense thickets of rhododendron. In the 1950s, most of
> > the southern forests were young second growth, nondescript, and wimpy. Old
> > growth was not even a concept in the southern mind. Yet, I do believe that at a
> > deep subconscious level, an awareness was developing, an image was forming in my
> > synapses of what a real eastern forest should look like. I was ultimately to
> > come to understand that a forest was not just an assembly of tree trunks. For
> > certain, big trees helped, but a complete forest they do not make. That took a
> > gestalt of forms. One must be able to gaze up into large fan-shaped crowns of
> > emergent forms. Big limbs aloft must fill space high above one's head and
> > provide diverse habitat for an abundance of tree-dwelling plan
> > > ts and animals - a village in the tree tops. At ground level, extensive root
> > structures must speak to nesting and den sites. In real old growth, one feels
> > that one is in the domain of hobbits, elves and forest devas.
> > > The Maturing of the Vision
> > > With a forest past deeply rooted in the southern Appalachians, I
> > can finally articulate, from my current New England perch, what distinguishes
> > old growth for me and what values I associate with our remnant ancient eastern
> > forests. But, I'm getting ahead of myself. In the mid-1980s, I was searching the
> > ravines and ridge sides of the Berkshires for old growth remnants. The thrill of
> > discovery fueled my passions. But the appeal went far beyond the emotional high
> > of discovery. When I encountered an old growth specimen of exceptional
> > proportions, I increasingly saw the forest elders of the Berkshires as living
> > connectors to both an ecological and historical past. The trees served as
> > historical time and place markers, and as one with a nostalgic streak, the old
> > trees gave me a palpable link to the colonial and pre-colonial New England past.
> > I never get that in sterile museum displays presented in glass enclosures or
> > even the most artistic recreations of early forests. But the
> > > connection goes far beyond historical connections. Most importantly, when in
> > the presence of old growth, I feel a deeper connection to the Earth and its
> > twisted evolutionary path that I do not experience in post-colonial woodlands,
> > even second growth with large trees.
> > > From their auspicious beginning in 1993, the eastern old growth
> > conferences piled up, and I came to increasingly think along scientific lines -
> > I thought of the old growth survivors that we were documenting as living
> > scientific laboratories with many mysteries left to unravel. Perhaps that was
> > their greatest value. My research interests were expanding, but there were
> > plenty of highly accomplished scientists to build the case for retaining old
> > growth remnants as baselines for evaluating environmental changes and to
> > decoding their many mysteries. Other than my growing appetite for forest and
> > tree quantifications and listening to what distinguished scientists were
> > learning about old growth ecosystems, I left it up to the hardcore scientific
> > community to build the a case for value along scientific lines. I continue to
> > feel a strong need to statistically document what I see, but it is not a zero
> > sum game for me. I have remained keenly aware that I am pulled toward individual
> > > trees and sites more than others and I continue to wonder why. The answer
> > almost assuredly lies in the nonphysical realm.
> > > There is an un-distilled forest elixir at
For me, all forests have wonders- but very old trees are like very old people- it's fascinating to contemplate their lives and depth of character. If an entire stand is old- then it's the life of the stand that is exciting to think about- the infinitely complex dynamics that created it- far more complex than anything that humans can create.
But, that leaves open the ancient question- what is the role of humans in the bigger scheme of things? If it's decided that that role is positive, then there's no reason why humans can't interact with forests in a way as to add something- including the very qualities that Bob discusses in his essay- even spiritual values. The forests don't have to be degraded by the human touch, though that's the basic assumption.
This gets to the idea of managing for "near old growth"- retaining much of the features of old growth with a light touch. Done, carefully, I suggest that you can have your cake and eat it too. Let the forest mature so that it has a very large stand volume- then never let that volume drop below some level- for example, if you have a mixed stand of pine, hemlock and hardwoods in the NE it could easily get way over 20 MBF/acre. Then, every decade remove only 2-4 MBF/acre while leaving the stand over 20 MBF/acre. Often we only remove only 2-4 MBF any ways, but that's with stands which only have twice that- so it cycles between 8 MBF/acre down to 4, then back to 8. If it started at 24 MBF/acre, then remove 4- down to 20, then let it get back to 24, ad infinitum. And, if done right, that 4 MBF/ac could be worth 10 times as much as the typical value received when harvesting younger stands- because most of the trees could be veneer quality. So, everybody gains- more valuable timber for the owner, foresters and wood industry- while retaining "near old growth" forever. It just means that the owner, forester and wood industry will have to wait a long time to see the benefits.
Given the fact that managing that forest for a century or more to arrive at "near old growth" conditions will be financially difficult for all involved, society needs to start compensating forest owners for ecosystem values- which everyone agrees exist but which nobody wants to pay for. Recently the state of Mass., in its "current use" tax program decide to RAISE the taxes of those forest owners with land in the state's current use system, Chapter 61- obviously proving their lack of a long term vision for the forests. Not only should property taxes be wiped out for forest land, society must start paying for those ecosystem services- if forest owners decide to manage for the long term, including some of this "near old growth" style mgt.
Such "near old growth" silviculture might necessitate a new state licensing program- only some foresters will be considered qualified to do it. <G>
----- Original Message ----- From: dbhg...@comcast.net To: entstrees@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:17 PM Subject: [ENTS] Valuing the old growth
********** (snipped)
In Summary
Despite the pull of the old growth, years of searching for remnants can create a kind of apathy in one. What difference will one more stand make? But, growth in the number of sites isn't the point. Each old growth stand has its uniqueness, its spirit gestalt, and harbors the separate spirits of its many denizens. In aggregate, old growth forests are an important signature of the Earth. As I expect the ENTS list to reveal, their value and appeal can be developed along many lines of thought. But for me, it is their spiritual essence that forms the base of the old growth forest value pyramid. If this sounds elusive, it is. Spiritual essence makes the old growth accessible to some, but distant from others, and in seeking, there is the implication of a personal journey.
I will conclude with the following thoughts. Perhaps to be able to know and fully value an old growth forest, one must first get in touch with one's own spiritual essence. This cannot be accomplished with only the five physical senses at work - and everyone's path is personal and unique, but no richer trip can be made. Perhaps then, the highest value of the old growth is in its power to induce such a spiritual search in each of us for meaning, a soul journey to recapture our Earth roots, if you will. If this is the case, I cannot imagine a greater test of value for the Earth's remaining primary forests.
You have articulated incredibly well a process of thought and timing that I believe is achievable and possible for the Appalachian hardwood region as well as the white pine forests of New England.
This discussion intrigues me greatly and I am heartened to read your conclusions as it parallels much of what I have observed and personally recorded but never seen written down and I appreciate your insights.
----- Original Message ----- From: ForestR...@aol.com To: entstrees@googlegroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 10:55 AM Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
Joe:
You have articulated incredibly well a process of thought and timing that I believe is achievable and possible for the Appalachian hardwood region as well as the white pine forests of New England.
This discussion intrigues me greatly and I am heartened to read your conclusions as it parallels much of what I have observed and personally recorded but never seen written down and I appreciate your insights.
Russ
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
I love the idea of ³managing for old growth.². But what do you use every 10 years to harvest a helicopter? I would love to carry out this idea on my working forest, but having just been through a hideous experience with a logging job last summer, I have my doubts as to whether it¹s achievable. It just tears me up to look at my recovering forest all torn up again. I have another forest that is definitely approaching old growth and this recent experience has only reinforced my feeling that no logging at all can be done there. I can¹t risk it. Hopefully, our economic situation will not deteriorate and force us to log. -- Carolyn Summers 63 Ferndale Drive Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706 914-478-5712
From: Joseph Zorzin <jjzor...@verizon.net> Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 10:31:31 -0500 To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
For me, all forests have wonders- but very old trees are like very old people- it's fascinating to contemplate their lives and depth of character. If an entire stand is old- then it's the life of the stand that is exciting to think about- the infinitely complex dynamics that created it- far more complex than anything that humans can create.
But, that leaves open the ancient question- what is the role of humans in the bigger scheme of things? If it's decided that that role is positive, then there's no reason why humans can't interact with forests in a way as to add something- including the very qualities that Bob discusses in his essay- even spiritual values. The forests don't have to be degraded by the human touch, though that's the basic assumption.
This gets to the idea of managing for "near old growth"- retaining much of the features of old growth with a light touch. Done, carefully, I suggest that you can have your cake and eat it too. Let the forest mature so that it has a very large stand volume- then never let that volume drop below some level- for example, if you have a mixed stand of pine, hemlock and hardwoods in the NE it could easily get way over 20 MBF/acre. Then, every decade remove only 2-4 MBF/acre while leaving the stand over 20 MBF/acre. Often we only remove only 2-4 MBF any ways, but that's with stands which only have twice that- so it cycles between 8 MBF/acre down to 4, then back to 8. If it started at 24 MBF/acre, then remove 4- down to 20, then let it get back to 24, ad infinitum. And, if done right, that 4 MBF/ac could be worth 10 times as much as the typical value received when harvesting younger stands- because most of the trees could be veneer quality. So, everybody gains- more valuable timber for the owner, foresters and wood industry- while retaining "near old growth" forever. It just means that the owner, forester and wood industry will have to wait a long time to see the benefits.
Given the fact that managing that forest for a century or more to arrive at "near old growth" conditions will be financially difficult for all involved, society needs to start compensating forest owners for ecosystem values- which everyone agrees exist but which nobody wants to pay for. Recently the state of Mass., in its "current use" tax program decide to RAISE the taxes of those forest owners with land in the state's current use system, Chapter 61- obviously proving their lack of a long term vision for the forests. Not only should property taxes be wiped out for forest land, society must start paying for those ecosystem services- if forest owners decide to manage for the long term, including some of this "near old growth" style mgt.
Such "near old growth" silviculture might necessitate a new state licensing program- only some foresters will be considered qualified to do it. <G>
> Despite the pull of the old growth, years of searching for > remnants can create a kind of apathy in one. What difference will one more > stand make? But, growth in the number of sites isn¹t the point. Each old > growth stand has its uniqueness, its spirit gestalt, and harbors the separate > spirits of its many denizens. In aggregate, old growth forests are an > important signature of the Earth. As I expect the ENTS list to reveal, their > value and appeal can be developed along many lines of thought. But for me, it > is their spiritual essence that forms the base of the old growth forest value > pyramid. If this sounds elusive, it is. Spiritual essence makes the old > growth accessible to some, but distant from others, and in seeking, there is > the implication of a personal journey.
> I will conclude with the following thoughts. Perhaps to be able > to know and fully value an old growth forest, one must first get in touch > with one¹s own spiritual essence. This cannot be accomplished with only the > five physical senses at work - and everyone¹s path is personal and unique, > but no richer trip can be made. Perhaps then, the highest value of the old > growth is in its power to induce such a spiritual search in each of us for > meaning, a soul journey to recapture our Earth roots, if you will. If this is > the case, I cannot imagine a greater test of value for the Earth¹s remaining > primary forests.
> I love the idea of ³managing for old growth.². But what do you use every 10
> years to harvest a helicopter? I would love to carry out this idea on my
> working forest, but having just been through a hideous experience with a
> logging job last summer, I have my doubts as to whether it¹s achievable. It
> just tears me up to look at my recovering forest all torn up again. I have
> another forest that is definitely approaching old growth and this recent
> experience has only reinforced my feeling that no logging at all can be done
> there. I can¹t risk it. Hopefully, our economic situation will not
> deteriorate and force us to log.
> --
> Carolyn Summers
> 63 Ferndale Drive
> Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706
> 914-478-5712
> From: Joseph Zorzin <jjzor...@verizon.net>
> Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 10:31:31 -0500
> To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
> For me, all forests have wonders- but very old trees are like very old
> people- it's fascinating to contemplate their lives and depth of character.
> If an entire stand is old- then it's the life of the stand that is exciting
> to think about- the infinitely complex dynamics that created it- far more
> complex than anything that humans can create.
> But, that leaves open the ancient question- what is the role of humans in
> the bigger scheme of things? If it's decided that that role is positive,
> then there's no reason why humans can't interact with forests in a way as to
> add something- including the very qualities that Bob discusses in his essay-
> even spiritual values. The forests don't have to be degraded by the human
> touch, though that's the basic assumption.
> This gets to the idea of managing for "near old growth"- retaining much of
> the features of old growth with a light touch. Done, carefully, I suggest
> that you can have your cake and eat it too. Let the forest mature so that it
> has a very large stand volume- then never let that volume drop below some
> level- for example, if you have a mixed stand of pine, hemlock and hardwoods
> in the NE it could easily get way over 20 MBF/acre. Then, every decade
> remove only 2-4 MBF/acre while leaving the stand over 20 MBF/acre. Often we
> only remove only 2-4 MBF any ways, but that's with stands which only have
> twice that- so it cycles between 8 MBF/acre down to 4, then back to 8. If it
> started at 24 MBF/acre, then remove 4- down to 20, then let it get back to
> 24, ad infinitum. And, if done right, that 4 MBF/ac could be worth 10 times
> as much as the typical value received when harvesting younger stands-
> because most of the trees could be veneer quality. So, everybody gains- more
> valuable timber for the owner, foresters and wood industry- while retaining
> "near old growth" forever. It just means that the owner, forester and wood
> industry will have to wait a long time to see the benefits.
> Given the fact that managing that forest for a century or more to arrive at
> "near old growth" conditions will be financially difficult for all involved,
> society needs to start compensating forest owners for ecosystem values-
> which everyone agrees exist but which nobody wants to pay for. Recently the
> state of Mass., in its "current use" tax program decide to RAISE the taxes
> of those forest owners with land in the state's current use system, Chapter
> 61- obviously proving their lack of a long term vision for the forests. Not
> only should property taxes be wiped out for forest land, society must start
> paying for those ecosystem services- if forest owners decide to manage for
> the long term, including some of this "near old growth" style mgt.
> Such "near old growth" silviculture might necessitate a new state licensing
> program- only some foresters will be considered qualified to do it. <G>
> > Despite the pull of the old growth, years of searching for
> > remnants can create a kind of apathy in one. What difference will one more
> > stand make? But, growth in the number of sites isn¹t the point. Each old
> > growth stand has its uniqueness, its spirit gestalt, and harbors the separate
> > spirits of its many denizens. In aggregate, old growth forests are an
> > important signature of the Earth. As I expect the ENTS list to reveal, their
> > value and appeal can be developed along many lines of thought. But for me, it
> > is their spiritual essence that forms the base of the old growth forest value
> > pyramid. If this sounds elusive, it is. Spiritual essence makes the old
> > growth accessible to some, but distant from others, and in seeking, there is
> > the implication of a personal journey.
> > I will conclude with the following thoughts. Perhaps to be able
> > to know and fully value an old growth forest, one must first get in touch
> > with one¹s own spiritual essence. This cannot be accomplished with only the
> > five physical senses at work - and everyone¹s path is personal and unique,
> > but no richer trip can be made. Perhaps then, the highest value of the old
> > growth is in its power to induce such a spiritual search in each of us for
> > meaning, a soul journey to recapture our Earth roots, if you will. If this is
> > the case, I cannot imagine a greater test of value for the Earth¹s remaining
> > primary forests.- Hide quoted text -
Re: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growthThe fact that you had a horrible experience is 100% due to the total failure of the corrupt forestry establishment which tolerates, condones and defends such "timber beasts". Your experience is the same of thousands of other owners which is the real reason there is so little real forestry because you associate "forestry" with what you experienced. Meanwhile, the idiotic forestry establishment claims forestry is rare because of the low value of so many trees in the woods!- which are all so common because the timber beasts left them!
But, tree harvesting can be done with little damage to the ground or remaining trees.
When Mike Leonard and I rant ferociously against the phony, corrupt, forestry establishment- many people trash us- when they should be trashing the forestry establishment for allowing the trashing of the forests.
When you say, "force us to log"- the term should be "apply silviculture to the forest with a forester who actually practices real forestry".
----- Original Message ----- From: Carolyn Summers To: entstrees@googlegroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 8:42 PM Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
I love the idea of "managing for old growth.". But what do you use every 10 years to harvest - a helicopter? I would love to carry out this idea on my working forest, but having just been through a hideous experience with a logging job last summer, I have my doubts as to whether it's achievable. It just tears me up to look at my recovering forest all torn up again. I have another forest that is definitely approaching old growth and this recent experience has only reinforced my feeling that no logging at all can be done there. I can't risk it. Hopefully, our economic situation will not deteriorate and force us to log. -- Carolyn Summers 63 Ferndale Drive Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706 914-478-5712
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: Joseph Zorzin <jjzor...@verizon.net> Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 10:31:31 -0500 To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
For me, all forests have wonders- but very old trees are like very old people- it's fascinating to contemplate their lives and depth of character. If an entire stand is old- then it's the life of the stand that is exciting to think about- the infinitely complex dynamics that created it- far more complex than anything that humans can create.
But, that leaves open the ancient question- what is the role of humans in the bigger scheme of things? If it's decided that that role is positive, then there's no reason why humans can't interact with forests in a way as to add something- including the very qualities that Bob discusses in his essay- even spiritual values. The forests don't have to be degraded by the human touch, though that's the basic assumption.
This gets to the idea of managing for "near old growth"- retaining much of the features of old growth with a light touch. Done, carefully, I suggest that you can have your cake and eat it too. Let the forest mature so that it has a very large stand volume- then never let that volume drop below some level- for example, if you have a mixed stand of pine, hemlock and hardwoods in the NE it could easily get way over 20 MBF/acre. Then, every decade remove only 2-4 MBF/acre while leaving the stand over 20 MBF/acre. Often we only remove only 2-4 MBF any ways, but that's with stands which only have twice that- so it cycles between 8 MBF/acre down to 4, then back to 8. If it started at 24 MBF/acre, then remove 4- down to 20, then let it get back to 24, ad infinitum. And, if done right, that 4 MBF/ac could be worth 10 times as much as the typical value received when harvesting younger stands- because most of the trees could be veneer quality. So, everybody gains- more valuable timber for the owner, foresters and wood industry- while retaining "near old growth" forever. It just means that the owner, forester and wood industry will have to wait a long time to see the benefits.
Given the fact that managing that forest for a century or more to arrive at "near old growth" conditions will be financially difficult for all involved, society needs to start compensating forest owners for ecosystem values- which everyone agrees exist but which nobody wants to pay for. Recently the state of Mass., in its "current use" tax program decide to RAISE the taxes of those forest owners with land in the state's current use system, Chapter 61- obviously proving their lack of a long term vision for the forests. Not only should property taxes be wiped out for forest land, society must start paying for those ecosystem services- if forest owners decide to manage for the long term, including some of this "near old growth" style mgt.
Such "near old growth" silviculture might necessitate a new state licensing program- only some foresters will be considered qualified to do it. <G>
Despite the pull of the old growth, years of searching for remnants can create a kind of apathy in one. What difference will one more stand make? But, growth in the number of sites isn't the point. Each old growth stand has its uniqueness, its spirit gestalt, and harbors the separate spirits of its many denizens. In aggregate, old growth forests are an important signature of the Earth. As I expect the ENTS list to reveal, their value and appeal can be developed along many lines of thought. But for me, it is their spiritual essence that forms the base of the old growth forest value pyramid. If this sounds elusive, it is. Spiritual essence makes the old growth accessible to some, but distant from others, and in seeking, there is the implication of a personal journey.
I will conclude with the following thoughts. Perhaps to be able to know and fully value an old growth forest, one must first get in touch with one's own spiritual essence. This cannot be accomplished with only the five physical senses at work - and everyone's path is personal and unique, but no richer trip can be made. Perhaps then, the highest value of the old growth is in its power to induce such a spiritual search in each of us for meaning, a soul journey to recapture our Earth roots, if you will. If this is the case, I cannot imagine a greater test of value for the Earth's remaining primary forests.
My best guess if you were to adopt a program of frequent entries into a patch of woodland all sorts of criteria would have to be known like how many total acres, how old the forest is you are starting with as well as the overall fertility and productivity of the land you are working with. Access would be essential through the land...not excessively large or wide roads but permanently established and maintained trails where invasive species are monitored and or controlled.
Criteria will be different for every forest and climate type with lots of local geologic variations added to make the process a tad more complex.
Yes, James, what a help, a great picture like yours is worth 1000 words. So many people thought that it was a native species. I hate to disillusion folks, but there are consequences to planting so many non-natives. I also showed a photo of a solid acre of daylilies (another plant many people think is native) growing into a forest - no germination of trees - just solid, wall-to-wall daylilies choking out everything else. When I gave this most recent presentation, people seemed to be more familiar with the concept that these invasive plants are actually causing harm.. I think the volunteer vine-cutting groups are raising awareness, at least in our region.
Thanks for donating photos for educational purposes. If you ever need invasive species photos, I'll be happy to reciprocate. And maybe if it warms up a little, I'll try to branch out and photograph some of our bigger trees. Not up to your standards, but I'll give it a try. I've always found trees hard to photograph, I'm much better at Trilliums. -- Carolyn Summers 63 Ferndale Drive Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706 914-478-5712
> From: James Parton <hawthorn_...@yahoo.com> > Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> > Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 18:07:04 -0800 (PST) > To: ENTSTrees <entstrees@googlegroups.com> > Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
> Carolyn,
> To give a comliment. I always find your posts informative. Did your > presentation on invasives go well? Hopefully my pictures helped you a > little.
> James Parton.
> On Feb 10, 8:42 pm, Carolyn Summers <csumm...@springmail.com> wrote: >> I love the idea of ³managing for old growth.². But what do you use every 10 >> years to harvest a helicopter? I would love to carry out this idea on my >> working forest, but having just been through a hideous experience with a >> logging job last summer, I have my doubts as to whether it¹s achievable. It >> just tears me up to look at my recovering forest all torn up again. I have >> another forest that is definitely approaching old growth and this recent >> experience has only reinforced my feeling that no logging at all can be done >> there. I can¹t risk it. Hopefully, our economic situation will not >> deteriorate and force us to log. >> -- >> Carolyn Summers >> 63 Ferndale Drive >> Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706 >> 914-478-5712
>> From: Joseph Zorzin <jjzor...@verizon.net> >> Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> >> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 10:31:31 -0500 >> To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> >> Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
>> For me, all forests have wonders- but very old trees are like very old >> people- it's fascinating to contemplate their lives and depth of character. >> If an entire stand is old- then it's the life of the stand that is exciting >> to think about- the infinitely complex dynamics that created it- far more >> complex than anything that humans can create.
>> But, that leaves open the ancient question- what is the role of humans in >> the bigger scheme of things? If it's decided that that role is positive, >> then there's no reason why humans can't interact with forests in a way as to >> add something- including the very qualities that Bob discusses in his essay- >> even spiritual values. The forests don't have to be degraded by the human >> touch, though that's the basic assumption.
>> This gets to the idea of managing for "near old growth"- retaining much of >> the features of old growth with a light touch. Done, carefully, I suggest >> that you can have your cake and eat it too. Let the forest mature so that it >> has a very large stand volume- then never let that volume drop below some >> level- for example, if you have a mixed stand of pine, hemlock and hardwoods >> in the NE it could easily get way over 20 MBF/acre. Then, every decade >> remove only 2-4 MBF/acre while leaving the stand over 20 MBF/acre. Often we >> only remove only 2-4 MBF any ways, but that's with stands which only have >> twice that- so it cycles between 8 MBF/acre down to 4, then back to 8. If it >> started at 24 MBF/acre, then remove 4- down to 20, then let it get back to >> 24, ad infinitum. And, if done right, that 4 MBF/ac could be worth 10 times >> as much as the typical value received when harvesting younger stands- >> because most of the trees could be veneer quality. So, everybody gains- more >> valuable timber for the owner, foresters and wood industry- while retaining >> "near old growth" forever. It just means that the owner, forester and wood >> industry will have to wait a long time to see the benefits.
>> Given the fact that managing that forest for a century or more to arrive at >> "near old growth" conditions will be financially difficult for all involved, >> society needs to start compensating forest owners for ecosystem values- >> which everyone agrees exist but which nobody wants to pay for. Recently the >> state of Mass., in its "current use" tax program decide to RAISE the taxes >> of those forest owners with land in the state's current use system, Chapter >> 61- obviously proving their lack of a long term vision for the forests. Not >> only should property taxes be wiped out for forest land, society must start >> paying for those ecosystem services- if forest owners decide to manage for >> the long term, including some of this "near old growth" style mgt.
>> Such "near old growth" silviculture might necessitate a new state licensing >> program- only some foresters will be considered qualified to do it. <G>
>>> Despite the pull of the old growth, years of searching for >>> remnants can create a kind of apathy in one. What difference will one more >>> stand make? But, growth in the number of sites isn¹t the point. Each old >>> growth stand has its uniqueness, its spirit gestalt, and harbors the >>> separate >>> spirits of its many denizens. In aggregate, old growth forests are an >>> important signature of the Earth. As I expect the ENTS list to reveal, >>> their >>> value and appeal can be developed along many lines of thought. But for me, >>> it >>> is their spiritual essence that forms the base of the old growth forest >>> value >>> pyramid. If this sounds elusive, it is. Spiritual essence makes the old >>> growth accessible to some, but distant from others, and in seeking, there >>> is >>> the implication of a personal journey.
>>> I will conclude with the following thoughts. Perhaps to be able >>> to know and fully value an old growth forest, one must first get in touch >>> with one¹s own spiritual essence. This cannot be accomplished with only the >>> five physical senses at work - and everyone¹s path is personal and unique, >>> but no richer trip can be made. Perhaps then, the highest value of the old >>> growth is in its power to induce such a spiritual search in each of us for >>> meaning, a soul journey to recapture our Earth roots, if you will. If this >>> is >>> the case, I cannot imagine a greater test of value for the Earth¹s >>> remaining >>> primary forests.- Hide quoted text -
I think I understand your point, but, in fact, I have the best forester in the Catskills working for me. I have a 480a Forest Plan (NYS) that he and I worked on together. Unfortunately, the NYSDEC requires a timeline and our time was up and we needed to harvest or pay penalties. If I had a crystal ball, I would have paid the penalties. Because the forest was high-graded before we purchased it, I needed to cut out a lot of hemlocks and open up areas for the few remaining cherry and birch to regenerate. I don¹t have to tell you that hemlock prices are in the toilet. We had a very difficult time finding a logger who would even bid on this job. When we found someone he started out in the winter on frozen ground and all was well. Spring came early. To make a long story short, he did not abide by the terms of his contract and one of his employees took the skidder for a joy ride. -- Carolyn Summers 63 Ferndale Drive Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706 914-478-5712
From: Joseph Zorzin <jjzor...@verizon.net> Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:16:51 -0500 To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
The fact that you had a horrible experience is 100% due to the total failure of the corrupt forestry establishment which tolerates, condones and defends such "timber beasts". Your experience is the same of thousands of other owners which is the real reason there is so little real forestry because you associate "forestry" with what you experienced. Meanwhile, the idiotic forestry establishment claims forestry is rare because of the low value of so many trees in the woods!- which are all so common because the timber beasts left them!
But, tree harvesting can be done with little damage to the ground or remaining trees.
When Mike Leonard and I rant ferociously against the phony, corrupt, forestry establishment- many people trash us- when they should be trashing the forestry establishment for allowing the trashing of the forests.
When you say, "force us to log"- the term should be "apply silviculture to the forest with a forester who actually practices real forestry".
> I love the idea of ³managing for old growth.². But what do you use every 10 > years to harvest a helicopter? I would love to carry out this idea on my > working forest, but having just been through a hideous experience with a > logging job last summer, I have my doubts as to whether it¹s achievable. It > just tears me up to look at my recovering forest all torn up again. I have > another forest that is definitely approaching old growth and this recent > experience has only reinforced my feeling that no logging at all can be done > there. I can¹t risk it. Hopefully, our economic situation will not > deteriorate and force us to log. > -- > Carolyn Summers > 63 Ferndale Drive > Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706 > 914-478-5712
> From: Joseph Zorzin <jjzor...@verizon.net> > Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> > Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 10:31:31 -0500 > To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> > Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
> For me, all forests have wonders- but very old trees are like very old > people- it's fascinating to contemplate their lives and depth of character. > If an entire stand is old- then it's the life of the stand that is exciting > to think about- the infinitely complex dynamics that created it- far more > complex than anything that humans can create.
> But, that leaves open the ancient question- what is the role of humans in the > bigger scheme of things? If it's decided that that role is positive, then > there's no reason why humans can't interact with forests in a way as to add > something- including the very qualities that Bob discusses in his essay- even > spiritual values. The forests don't have to be degraded by the human touch, > though that's the basic assumption.
> This gets to the idea of managing for "near old growth"- retaining much of > the features of old growth with a light touch. Done, carefully, I suggest > that you can have your cake and eat it too. Let the forest mature so that it > has a very large stand volume- then never let that volume drop below some > level- for example, if you have a mixed stand of pine, hemlock and hardwoods > in the NE it could easily get way over 20 MBF/acre. Then, every decade remove > only 2-4 MBF/acre while leaving the stand over 20 MBF/acre. Often we only > remove only 2-4 MBF any ways, but that's with stands which only have twice > that- so it cycles between 8 MBF/acre down to 4, then back to 8. If it > started at 24 MBF/acre, then remove 4- down to 20, then let it get back to > 24, ad infinitum. And, if done right, that 4 MBF/ac could be worth 10 times > as much as the typical value received when harvesting younger stands- because > most of the trees could be veneer quality. So, everybody gains- more valuable > timber for the owner, foresters and wood industry- while retaining "near old > growth" forever. It just means that the owner, forester and wood industry > will have to wait a long time to see the benefits.
> Given the fact that managing that forest for a century or more to arrive at > "near old growth" conditions will be financially difficult for all involved, > society needs to start compensating forest owners for ecosystem values- which > everyone agrees exist but which nobody wants to pay for. Recently the state > of Mass., in its "current use" tax program decide to RAISE the taxes of those > forest owners with land in the state's current use system, Chapter 61- > obviously proving their lack of a long term vision for the forests. Not only > should property taxes be wiped out for forest land, society must start paying > for those ecosystem services- if forest owners decide to manage for the long > term, including some of this "near old growth" style mgt.
> Such "near old growth" silviculture might necessitate a new state licensing > program- only some foresters will be considered qualified to do it. <G>
>> Despite the pull of the old growth, years of searching for >> remnants can create a kind of apathy in one. What difference will one more >> stand make? But, growth in the number of sites isn¹t the point. Each old >> growth stand has its uniqueness, its spirit gestalt, and harbors the >> separate spirits of its many denizens. In aggregate, old growth forests are >> an important signature of the Earth. As I expect the ENTS list to reveal, >> their value and appeal can be developed along many lines of thought. But >> for me, it is their spiritual essence that forms the base of the old growth >> forest value pyramid. If this sounds elusive, it is. Spiritual essence >> makes the old growth accessible to some, but distant from others, and in >> seeking, there is the implication of a personal journey.
>> I will conclude with the following thoughts. Perhaps to be able >> to know and fully value an old growth forest, one must first get in touch >> with one¹s own spiritual essence. This cannot be accomplished with only the >> five physical senses at work - and everyone¹s path is personal and unique, >> but no richer trip can be made. Perhaps then, the highest value of the old >> growth is in its power to induce such a spiritual search in each of us for >> meaning, a soul journey to recapture our Earth roots, if you will. If this >> is the case, I cannot imagine a greater test of value for the Earth¹s >> remaining primary forests.
Thanks, Russ. I really think that better tools are needed for timber extraction in sensitive locations. Using skidders in moist forests is like trying to cut a cake with a sledge hammer. -- Carolyn Summers 63 Ferndale Drive Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706 914-478-5712
From: <ForestR...@aol.com> Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:31:58 EST To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
Carolyn:
My best guess if you were to adopt a program of frequent entries into a patch of woodland all sorts of criteria would have to be known like how many total acres, how old the forest is you are starting with as well as the overall fertility and productivity of the land you are working with. Access would be essential through the land...not excessively large or wide roads but permanently established and maintained trails where invasive species are monitored and or controlled.
Criteria will be different for every forest and climate type with lots of local geologic variations added to make the process a tad more complex.
I did not know daylilies were not native. I am so used to seeing them
growing on roadsides and creekbanks around here that I thought nothing
of it. The same goes for multiflora rose. I have confused them with
the native carolina rose for years. One difference they have is the
native carolina has straight thorns. The multiflora is curved. I have
always called both " pasture roses " and have always loved them.
Unfortunantly multiflora is often very invasive along a woodland edge.
Actually good woodland photography is quite difficult. Getting the
highlights and shadows balanced without the darks being black and the
highlights burning out can be a pain. Then there is sensor bleed and
chromatic aberration. PhotoShop really helps!
James P.
On Feb 11, 10:56 pm, Carolyn Summers <csumm...@springmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, James, what a help, a great picture like yours is worth 1000 words. So
> many people thought that it was a native species. I hate to disillusion
> folks, but there are consequences to planting so many non-natives. I also
> showed a photo of a solid acre of daylilies (another plant many people think
> is native) growing into a forest - no germination of trees - just solid,
> wall-to-wall daylilies choking out everything else. When I gave this most
> recent presentation, people seemed to be more familiar with the concept that
> these invasive plants are actually causing harm.. I think the volunteer
> vine-cutting groups are raising awareness, at least in our region.
> Thanks for donating photos for educational purposes. If you ever need
> invasive species photos, I'll be happy to reciprocate. And maybe if it
> warms up a little, I'll try to branch out and photograph some of our bigger
> trees. Not up to your standards, but I'll give it a try. I've always found
> trees hard to photograph, I'm much better at Trilliums.
> --
> Carolyn Summers
> 63 Ferndale Drive
> Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706
> 914-478-5712
> > From: James Parton <hawthorn_...@yahoo.com>
> > Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com>
> > Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 18:07:04 -0800 (PST)
> > To: ENTSTrees <entstrees@googlegroups.com>
> > Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
> > Carolyn,
> > To give a comliment. I always find your posts informative. Did your
> > presentation on invasives go well? Hopefully my pictures helped you a
> > little.
> > James Parton.
> > On Feb 10, 8:42 pm, Carolyn Summers <csumm...@springmail.com> wrote:
> >> I love the idea of ³managing for old growth.². But what do you use every 10
> >> years to harvest a helicopter? I would love to carry out this idea on my
> >> working forest, but having just been through a hideous experience with a
> >> logging job last summer, I have my doubts as to whether it¹s achievable. It
> >> just tears me up to look at my recovering forest all torn up again. I have
> >> another forest that is definitely approaching old growth and this recent
> >> experience has only reinforced my feeling that no logging at all can be done
> >> there. I can¹t risk it. Hopefully, our economic situation will not
> >> deteriorate and force us to log.
> >> --
> >> Carolyn Summers
> >> 63 Ferndale Drive
> >> Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706
> >> 914-478-5712
> >> From: Joseph Zorzin <jjzor...@verizon.net>
> >> Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com>
> >> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 10:31:31 -0500
> >> To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com>
> >> Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
> >> For me, all forests have wonders- but very old trees are like very old
> >> people- it's fascinating to contemplate their lives and depth of character.
> >> If an entire stand is old- then it's the life of the stand that is exciting
> >> to think about- the infinitely complex dynamics that created it- far more
> >> complex than anything that humans can create.
> >> But, that leaves open the ancient question- what is the role of humans in
> >> the bigger scheme of things? If it's decided that that role is positive,
> >> then there's no reason why humans can't interact with forests in a way as to
> >> add something- including the very qualities that Bob discusses in his essay-
> >> even spiritual values. The forests don't have to be degraded by the human
> >> touch, though that's the basic assumption.
> >> This gets to the idea of managing for "near old growth"- retaining much of
> >> the features of old growth with a light touch. Done, carefully, I suggest
> >> that you can have your cake and eat it too. Let the forest mature so that it
> >> has a very large stand volume- then never let that volume drop below some
> >> level- for example, if you have a mixed stand of pine, hemlock and hardwoods
> >> in the NE it could easily get way over 20 MBF/acre. Then, every decade
> >> remove only 2-4 MBF/acre while leaving the stand over 20 MBF/acre. Often we
> >> only remove only 2-4 MBF any ways, but that's with stands which only have
> >> twice that- so it cycles between 8 MBF/acre down to 4, then back to 8. If it
> >> started at 24 MBF/acre, then remove 4- down to 20, then let it get back to
> >> 24, ad infinitum. And, if done right, that 4 MBF/ac could be worth 10 times
> >> as much as the typical value received when harvesting younger stands-
> >> because most of the trees could be veneer quality. So, everybody gains- more
> >> valuable timber for the owner, foresters and wood industry- while retaining
> >> "near old growth" forever. It just means that the owner, forester and wood
> >> industry will have to wait a long time to see the benefits.
> >> Given the fact that managing that forest for a century or more to arrive at
> >> "near old growth" conditions will be financially difficult for all involved,
> >> society needs to start compensating forest owners for ecosystem values-
> >> which everyone agrees exist but which nobody wants to pay for. Recently the
> >> state of Mass., in its "current use" tax program decide to RAISE the taxes
> >> of those forest owners with land in the state's current use system, Chapter
> >> 61- obviously proving their lack of a long term vision for the forests. Not
> >> only should property taxes be wiped out for forest land, society must start
> >> paying for those ecosystem services- if forest owners decide to manage for
> >> the long term, including some of this "near old growth" style mgt.
> >> Such "near old growth" silviculture might necessitate a new state licensing
> >> program- only some foresters will be considered qualified to do it. <G>
> >>> Despite the pull of the old growth, years of searching for
> >>> remnants can create a kind of apathy in one. What difference will one more
> >>> stand make? But, growth in the number of sites isn¹t the point. Each old
> >>> growth stand has its uniqueness, its spirit gestalt, and harbors the
> >>> separate
> >>> spirits of its many denizens. In aggregate, old growth forests are an
> >>> important signature of the Earth. As I expect the ENTS list to reveal,
> >>> their
> >>> value and appeal can be developed along many lines of thought. But for me,
> >>> it
> >>> is their spiritual essence that forms the base of the old growth forest
> >>> value
> >>> pyramid. If this sounds elusive, it is. Spiritual essence makes the old
> >>> growth accessible to some, but distant from others, and in seeking, there
> >>> is
> >>> the implication of a personal journey.
> >>> I will conclude with the following thoughts. Perhaps to be able
> >>> to know and fully value an old growth forest, one must first get in touch
> >>> with one¹s own spiritual essence. This cannot be accomplished with only the
> >>> five physical senses at work - and everyone¹s path is personal and unique,
> >>> but no richer trip can be made. Perhaps then, the highest value of the old
> >>> growth is in its power to induce such a spiritual search in each of us for
> >>> meaning, a soul journey to recapture our Earth roots, if you will. If this
> >>> is
> >>> the case, I cannot imagine a greater test of value for the Earth¹s
> >>> remaining
> >>> primary forests.- Hide quoted text -
> From: James Parton <hawthorn_...@yahoo.com> > Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:24:33 -0800 (PST) > To: ENTSTrees <entstrees@googlegroups.com> > Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
> Carolyn,
> I did not know daylilies were not native. I am so used to seeing them > growing on roadsides and creekbanks around here that I thought nothing > of it. The same goes for multiflora rose. I have confused them with > the native carolina rose for years. One difference they have is the > native carolina has straight thorns. The multiflora is curved. I have > always called both " pasture roses " and have always loved them. > Unfortunantly multiflora is often very invasive along a woodland edge.
> Actually good woodland photography is quite difficult. Getting the > highlights and shadows balanced without the darks being black and the > highlights burning out can be a pain. Then there is sensor bleed and > chromatic aberration. PhotoShop really helps!
> James P.
> On Feb 11, 10:56 pm, Carolyn Summers <csumm...@springmail.com> wrote: >> Yes, James, what a help, a great picture like yours is worth 1000 words. So >> many people thought that it was a native species. I hate to disillusion >> folks, but there are consequences to planting so many non-natives. I also >> showed a photo of a solid acre of daylilies (another plant many people think >> is native) growing into a forest - no germination of trees - just solid, >> wall-to-wall daylilies choking out everything else. When I gave this most >> recent presentation, people seemed to be more familiar with the concept that >> these invasive plants are actually causing harm.. I think the volunteer >> vine-cutting groups are raising awareness, at least in our region.
>> Thanks for donating photos for educational purposes. If you ever need >> invasive species photos, I'll be happy to reciprocate. And maybe if it >> warms up a little, I'll try to branch out and photograph some of our bigger >> trees. Not up to your standards, but I'll give it a try. I've always found >> trees hard to photograph, I'm much better at Trilliums. >> -- >> Carolyn Summers >> 63 Ferndale Drive >> Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706 >> 914-478-5712
>>> From: James Parton <hawthorn_...@yahoo.com> >>> Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> >>> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 18:07:04 -0800 (PST) >>> To: ENTSTrees <entstrees@googlegroups.com> >>> Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
>>> Carolyn,
>>> To give a comliment. I always find your posts informative. Did your >>> presentation on invasives go well? Hopefully my pictures helped you a >>> little.
>>> James Parton.
>>> On Feb 10, 8:42 pm, Carolyn Summers <csumm...@springmail.com> wrote: >>>> I love the idea of ³managing for old growth.². But what do you use every >>>> 10 >>>> years to harvest a helicopter? I would love to carry out this idea on my >>>> working forest, but having just been through a hideous experience with a >>>> logging job last summer, I have my doubts as to whether it¹s achievable. >>>> It >>>> just tears me up to look at my recovering forest all torn up again. I have >>>> another forest that is definitely approaching old growth and this recent >>>> experience has only reinforced my feeling that no logging at all can be >>>> done >>>> there. I can¹t risk it. Hopefully, our economic situation will not >>>> deteriorate and force us to log. >>>> -- >>>> Carolyn Summers >>>> 63 Ferndale Drive >>>> Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706 >>>> 914-478-5712
>>>> From: Joseph Zorzin <jjzor...@verizon.net> >>>> Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> >>>> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 10:31:31 -0500 >>>> To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com> >>>> Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
>>>> For me, all forests have wonders- but very old trees are like very old >>>> people- it's fascinating to contemplate their lives and depth of character. >>>> If an entire stand is old- then it's the life of the stand that is exciting >>>> to think about- the infinitely complex dynamics that created it- far more >>>> complex than anything that humans can create.
>>>> But, that leaves open the ancient question- what is the role of humans in >>>> the bigger scheme of things? If it's decided that that role is positive, >>>> then there's no reason why humans can't interact with forests in a way as >>>> to >>>> add something- including the very qualities that Bob discusses in his >>>> essay- >>>> even spiritual values. The forests don't have to be degraded by the human >>>> touch, though that's the basic assumption.
>>>> This gets to the idea of managing for "near old growth"- retaining much of >>>> the features of old growth with a light touch. Done, carefully, I suggest >>>> that you can have your cake and eat it too. Let the forest mature so that >>>> it >>>> has a very large stand volume- then never let that volume drop below some >>>> level- for example, if you have a mixed stand of pine, hemlock and >>>> hardwoods >>>> in the NE it could easily get way over 20 MBF/acre. Then, every decade >>>> remove only 2-4 MBF/acre while leaving the stand over 20 MBF/acre. Often we >>>> only remove only 2-4 MBF any ways, but that's with stands which only have >>>> twice that- so it cycles between 8 MBF/acre down to 4, then back to 8. If >>>> it >>>> started at 24 MBF/acre, then remove 4- down to 20, then let it get back to >>>> 24, ad infinitum. And, if done right, that 4 MBF/ac could be worth 10 times >>>> as much as the typical value received when harvesting younger stands- >>>> because most of the trees could be veneer quality. So, everybody gains- >>>> more >>>> valuable timber for the owner, foresters and wood industry- while retaining >>>> "near old growth" forever. It just means that the owner, forester and wood >>>> industry will have to wait a long time to see the benefits.
>>>> Given the fact that managing that forest for a century or more to arrive at >>>> "near old growth" conditions will be financially difficult for all >>>> involved, >>>> society needs to start compensating forest owners for ecosystem values- >>>> which everyone agrees exist but which nobody wants to pay for. Recently the >>>> state of Mass., in its "current use" tax program decide to RAISE the taxes >>>> of those forest owners with land in the state's current use system, Chapter >>>> 61- obviously proving their lack of a long term vision for the forests. Not >>>> only should property taxes be wiped out for forest land, society must start >>>> paying for those ecosystem services- if forest owners decide to manage for >>>> the long term, including some of this "near old growth" style mgt.
>>>> Such "near old growth" silviculture might necessitate a new state licensing >>>> program- only some foresters will be considered qualified to do it. <G>
>>>>> Despite the pull of the old growth, years of searching for >>>>> remnants can create a kind of apathy in one. What difference will one >>>>> more >>>>> stand make? But, growth in the number of sites isn¹t the point. Each old >>>>> growth stand has its uniqueness, its spirit gestalt, and harbors the >>>>> separate >>>>> spirits of its many denizens. In aggregate, old growth forests are an >>>>> important signature of the Earth. As I expect the ENTS list to reveal, >>>>> their >>>>> value and appeal can be developed along many lines of thought. But for >>>>> me, >>>>> it >>>>> is their spiritual essence that forms the base of the old growth forest >>>>> value >>>>> pyramid. If this sounds elusive, it is. Spiritual essence makes the old >>>>> growth accessible to some, but distant from others, and in seeking, there >>>>> is >>>>> the implication of a personal journey.
>>>>> I will conclude with the following thoughts. Perhaps to be >>>>> able >>>>> to know and fully value an old growth forest, one must first get in touch >>>>> with one¹s own spiritual essence. This cannot be accomplished with only >>>>> the >>>>> five physical senses at work - and everyone¹s path is personal and >>>>> unique, >>>>> but no richer trip can be made. Perhaps then, the highest value of the >>>>> old >>>>> growth is in its power to induce such a spiritual search in each of us >>>>> for >>>>> meaning, a soul journey to recapture our Earth roots, if you will. If >>>>> this >>>>> is >>>>> the case, I cannot imagine a greater test of value for the Earth¹s >>>>> remaining >>>>> primary forests.- Hide quoted text -
> I guess I better start practicing.
> --
> Carolyn Summers
> 63 Ferndale Drive
> Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706
> 914-478-5712
> > From: James Parton <hawthorn_...@yahoo.com>
> > Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com>
> > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:24:33 -0800 (PST)
> > To: ENTSTrees <entstrees@googlegroups.com>
> > Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
> > Carolyn,
> > I did not know daylilies were not native. I am so used to seeing them
> > growing on roadsides and creekbanks around here that I thought nothing
> > of it. The same goes for multiflora rose. I have confused them with
> > the native carolina rose for years. One difference they have is the
> > native carolina has straight thorns. The multiflora is curved. I have
> > always called both " pasture roses " and have always loved them.
> > Unfortunantly multiflora is often very invasive along a woodland edge.
> > Actually good woodland photography is quite difficult. Getting the
> > highlights and shadows balanced without the darks being black and the
> > highlights burning out can be a pain. Then there is sensor bleed and
> > chromatic aberration. PhotoShop really helps!
> > James P.
> > On Feb 11, 10:56 pm, Carolyn Summers <csumm...@springmail.com> wrote:
> >> Yes, James, what a help, a great picture like yours is worth 1000 words. So
> >> many people thought that it was a native species. I hate to disillusion
> >> folks, but there are consequences to planting so many non-natives. I also
> >> showed a photo of a solid acre of daylilies (another plant many people think
> >> is native) growing into a forest - no germination of trees - just solid,
> >> wall-to-wall daylilies choking out everything else. When I gave this most
> >> recent presentation, people seemed to be more familiar with the concept that
> >> these invasive plants are actually causing harm.. I think the volunteer
> >> vine-cutting groups are raising awareness, at least in our region.
> >> Thanks for donating photos for educational purposes. If you ever need
> >> invasive species photos, I'll be happy to reciprocate. And maybe if it
> >> warms up a little, I'll try to branch out and photograph some of our bigger
> >> trees. Not up to your standards, but I'll give it a try. I've always found
> >> trees hard to photograph, I'm much better at Trilliums.
> >> --
> >> Carolyn Summers
> >> 63 Ferndale Drive
> >> Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706
> >> 914-478-5712
> >>> From: James Parton <hawthorn_...@yahoo.com>
> >>> Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com>
> >>> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 18:07:04 -0800 (PST)
> >>> To: ENTSTrees <entstrees@googlegroups.com>
> >>> Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
> >>> Carolyn,
> >>> To give a comliment. I always find your posts informative. Did your
> >>> presentation on invasives go well? Hopefully my pictures helped you a
> >>> little.
> >>> James Parton.
> >>> On Feb 10, 8:42 pm, Carolyn Summers <csumm...@springmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> I love the idea of ³managing for old growth.². But what do you use every
> >>>> 10
> >>>> years to harvest a helicopter? I would love to carry out this idea on my
> >>>> working forest, but having just been through a hideous experience with a
> >>>> logging job last summer, I have my doubts as to whether it¹s achievable.
> >>>> It
> >>>> just tears me up to look at my recovering forest all torn up again. I have
> >>>> another forest that is definitely approaching old growth and this recent
> >>>> experience has only reinforced my feeling that no logging at all can be
> >>>> done
> >>>> there. I can¹t risk it. Hopefully, our economic situation will not
> >>>> deteriorate and force us to log.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Carolyn Summers
> >>>> 63 Ferndale Drive
> >>>> Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706
> >>>> 914-478-5712
> >>>> From: Joseph Zorzin <jjzor...@verizon.net>
> >>>> Reply-To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com>
> >>>> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 10:31:31 -0500
> >>>> To: <entstrees@googlegroups.com>
> >>>> Subject: [ENTS] Re: Valuing the old growth
> >>>> For me, all forests have wonders- but very old trees are like very old
> >>>> people- it's fascinating to contemplate their lives and depth of character.
> >>>> If an entire stand is old- then it's the life of the stand that is exciting
> >>>> to think about- the infinitely complex dynamics that created it- far more
> >>>> complex than anything that humans can create.
> >>>> But, that leaves open the ancient question- what is the role of humans in
> >>>> the bigger scheme of things? If it's decided that that role is positive,
> >>>> then there's no reason why humans can't interact with forests in a way as
> >>>> to
> >>>> add something- including the very qualities that Bob discusses in his
> >>>> essay-
> >>>> even spiritual values. The forests don't have to be degraded by the human
> >>>> touch, though that's the basic assumption.
> >>>> This gets to the idea of managing for "near old growth"- retaining much of
> >>>> the features of old growth with a light touch. Done, carefully, I suggest
> >>>> that you can have your cake and eat it too. Let the forest mature so that
> >>>> it
> >>>> has a very large stand volume- then never let that volume drop below some
> >>>> level- for example, if you have a mixed stand of pine, hemlock and
> >>>> hardwoods
> >>>> in the NE it could easily get way over 20 MBF/acre. Then, every decade
> >>>> remove only 2-4 MBF/acre while leaving the stand over 20 MBF/acre. Often we
> >>>> only remove only 2-4 MBF any ways, but that's with stands which only have
> >>>> twice that- so it cycles between 8 MBF/acre down to 4, then back to 8. If
> >>>> it
> >>>> started at 24 MBF/acre, then remove 4- down to 20, then let it get back to
> >>>> 24, ad infinitum. And, if done right, that 4 MBF/ac could be worth 10 times
> >>>> as much as the typical value received when harvesting younger stands-
> >>>> because most of the trees could be veneer quality. So, everybody gains-
> >>>> more
> >>>> valuable timber for the owner, foresters and wood industry- while retaining
> >>>> "near old growth" forever. It just means that the owner, forester and wood
> >>>> industry will have to wait a long time to see the benefits.
> >>>> Given the fact that managing that forest for a century or more to arrive at
> >>>> "near old growth" conditions will be financially difficult for all
> >>>> involved,
> >>>> society needs to start compensating forest owners for ecosystem values-
> >>>> which everyone agrees exist but which nobody wants to pay for. Recently the
> >>>> state of Mass., in its "current use" tax program decide to RAISE the taxes
> >>>> of those forest owners with land in the state's current use system, Chapter
> >>>> 61- obviously proving their lack of a long term vision for the forests. Not
> >>>> only should property taxes be wiped out for forest land, society must start
> >>>> paying for those ecosystem services- if forest owners decide to manage for
> >>>> the long term, including some of this "near old growth" style mgt.
> >>>> Such "near old growth" silviculture might necessitate a new state licensing
> >>>> program- only some foresters will be considered qualified to do it. <G>
> >>>>> Despite the pull of the old growth, years of searching for
> >>>>> remnants can create a kind of apathy in one. What difference will one
> >>>>> more
> >>>>> stand make? But, growth in the number of sites isn¹t the point. Each old
> >>>>> growth stand has its uniqueness, its spirit gestalt, and harbors the
> >>>>> separate
> >>>>> spirits of its many denizens. In aggregate, old growth forests are an
> >>>>> important signature of the Earth. As I expect the ENTS list to reveal,
> >>>>> their
> >>>>> value and appeal can be developed along many lines of thought. But for
> >>>>> me,
> >>>>> it
> >>>>> is their spiritual essence that forms the base of the old growth forest
> >>>>> value
> >>>>> pyramid. If this sounds elusive, it is. Spiritual essence makes the old
> >>>>> growth accessible to some, but distant from others, and in seeking, there
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> the implication of a personal journey.
> >>>>> I will conclude with the following thoughts. Perhaps to be
> >>>>> able
> >>>>> to know and fully value an old growth forest, one must first get in touch
> >>>>> with one¹s own spiritual essence. This cannot be accomplished with only
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> five physical senses at work - and everyone¹s path is personal and
> >>>>> unique,
> >>>>> but no richer trip can be made. Perhaps then, the highest value of the
> >>>>> old
> >>>>> growth is in its power to induce such a spiritual search in each of us
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> meaning, a soul journey to recapture our Earth roots, if you will. If
> >>>>> this
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> the case, I cannot imagine a greater test of value for the Earth¹s
> >>>>> remaining
> >>>>> primary forests.- Hide quoted text -
