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John
Nov 6, 2012, 5:29:11 PM11/6/12
to
Are you suggesting I am of the devil? If not, please explain your
meaning.
Does Celia have a track record of telling lies.
--
John
meaning.
Does Celia have a track record of telling lies.
--
John
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 7, 2012, 3:52:51 AM11/7/12
to
"John" wrote in message news:jn3j985t34ggtflsf...@4ax.com...
"Devil's Advocate". You have left the Truth as you admit, thus you no
longer are under the protection of the Lord, and so have succumbed to the
wiles of the Diablos, which is using you against Christ and the teachings
of the Truth.
> Does Celia have a track record of telling lies.
Whenever she, as a professing Christian has opposed 1st Century Scripture
teaching for women as was taught and commanded by either Christ or the
Apostles.
'Our' dearly beloved St. Jude sums it up rather well, John.
"Now I find I must write of something else instead, urging you to stoutly
defend the truth that God gave once for all to his people to keep without
change through the years.
4 I say this because some godless teachers have wormed their way in among
you, saying that after we become Christians we can do just as we like
without fear of God’s punishment. The fate of such people was written long
ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. "
Jude 1:3-4 (TLB)
Jeff...
> Are you suggesting I am of the devil? If not, please explain your
> meaning.
Sadly, John, you have fallen into the bad and sinful habit of acting as the
> meaning.
"Devil's Advocate". You have left the Truth as you admit, thus you no
longer are under the protection of the Lord, and so have succumbed to the
wiles of the Diablos, which is using you against Christ and the teachings
of the Truth.
> Does Celia have a track record of telling lies.
teaching for women as was taught and commanded by either Christ or the
Apostles.
'Our' dearly beloved St. Jude sums it up rather well, John.
"Now I find I must write of something else instead, urging you to stoutly
defend the truth that God gave once for all to his people to keep without
change through the years.
4 I say this because some godless teachers have wormed their way in among
you, saying that after we become Christians we can do just as we like
without fear of God’s punishment. The fate of such people was written long
ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. "
Jude 1:3-4 (TLB)
Jeff...
John
Nov 7, 2012, 6:04:35 AM11/7/12
to
On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:52:51 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
Traditionalist" <jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>"John" wrote in message news:jn3j985t34ggtflsf...@4ax.com...
>> Are you suggesting I am of the devil? If not, please explain your
>> meaning.
>
>Sadly, John, you have fallen into the bad and sinful habit of acting as the
>"Devil's Advocate". You have left the Truth as you admit, thus you no
>longer are under the protection of the Lord, and so have succumbed to the
>wiles of the Diablos, which is using you against Christ and the teachings
>of the Truth.
Whilst I am not a Christian as you rightly say, I still believe God
Traditionalist" <jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>"John" wrote in message news:jn3j985t34ggtflsf...@4ax.com...
>> Are you suggesting I am of the devil? If not, please explain your
>> meaning.
>
>Sadly, John, you have fallen into the bad and sinful habit of acting as the
>"Devil's Advocate". You have left the Truth as you admit, thus you no
>longer are under the protection of the Lord, and so have succumbed to the
>wiles of the Diablos, which is using you against Christ and the teachings
>of the Truth.
and Jesus are true.
I know you won't understand but it has to be an intimate relationship
between man and Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit. I don't have that,
and anything else is a poor imitation.
Now, would you like a cup of water?
>> Does Celia have a track record of telling lies.
>
>Whenever she, as a professing Christian has opposed 1st Century Scripture
>teaching for women as was taught and commanded by either Christ or the
>Apostles.
>
>'Our' dearly beloved St. Jude sums it up rather well, John.
>"Now I find I must write of something else instead, urging you to stoutly
>defend the truth that God gave once for all to his people to keep without
>change through the years.
>
>4 I say this because some godless teachers have wormed their way in among
>you, saying that after we become Christians we can do just as we like
>without fear of God’s punishment. The fate of such people was written long
>ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. "
>Jude 1:3-4 (TLB)
pointing that out.
--
John
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 7, 2012, 10:33:00 AM11/7/12
to
"John" wrote in message news:s1gk98h23sdmq8nb0...@4ax.com...
On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:52:51 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
Traditionalist" <jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>"John" wrote in message news:jn3j985t34ggtflsf...@4ax.com...
>> Are you suggesting I am of the devil? If not, please explain your
>> meaning.
>
>Sadly, John, you have fallen into the bad and sinful habit of acting as
>the
>"Devil's Advocate". You have left the Truth as you admit, thus you no
>longer are under the protection of the Lord, and so have succumbed to the
>wiles of the Diablos, which is using you against Christ and the teachings
>of the Truth.
> Whilst I am not a Christian as you rightly say, I still believe God
> and Jesus are true.
So do the 'Devils' but it won't save them.
"19 You believe in one God? Well and good. So do the devils, and they
shudder. 20 But will you understand, you senseless fellow, that faith
without deeds is dead? "
James 2:18-20 (MOFF)
No offence meant by me, but James speaks the truth, John.
> I know you won't understand but it has to be an intimate relationship
> between man and Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit. I don't have that,
> and anything else is a poor imitation.
> Now, would you like a cup of water?
Actually I am just having a spritzer before my lunch, but thank you, John.
>>> Does Celia have a track record of telling lies.
>>
>>Whenever she, as a professing Christian has opposed 1st Century Scripture
>>teaching for women as was taught and commanded by either Christ or the
>>Apostles.
>>
>>'Our' dearly beloved St. Jude sums it up rather well, John.
>>"Now I find I must write of something else instead, urging you to stoutly
>>defend the truth that God gave once for all to his people to keep without
>>change through the years.
>>
>>4 I say this because some godless teachers have wormed their way in among
>>you, saying that after we become Christians we can do just as we like
>>without fear of God’s punishment. The fate of such people was written long
>>ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
>>"
>>Jude 1:3-4 (TLB)
> So she doesn't have a track record of telling lies.
Err! reading from your book, it appears not.
But reading from my book, the Bible and it's content on the roles of women,
her track record is rather abysmal.
And you know I can always prove it!.....{;o;}
> Thanks for
> pointing that out.
You are always welcome, John, you should know that by now.
Jeff...
Vital Bible Readings for Today
2 Chron...............36
Hosea....................4
Acts.....................20
Intro by Jeff Hickling at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92X0rlMqDGQ
On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:52:51 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
Traditionalist" <jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>"John" wrote in message news:jn3j985t34ggtflsf...@4ax.com...
>> Are you suggesting I am of the devil? If not, please explain your
>> meaning.
>
>Sadly, John, you have fallen into the bad and sinful habit of acting as
>the
>"Devil's Advocate". You have left the Truth as you admit, thus you no
>longer are under the protection of the Lord, and so have succumbed to the
>wiles of the Diablos, which is using you against Christ and the teachings
>of the Truth.
> Whilst I am not a Christian as you rightly say, I still believe God
> and Jesus are true.
"19 You believe in one God? Well and good. So do the devils, and they
shudder. 20 But will you understand, you senseless fellow, that faith
without deeds is dead? "
James 2:18-20 (MOFF)
No offence meant by me, but James speaks the truth, John.
> I know you won't understand but it has to be an intimate relationship
> between man and Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit. I don't have that,
> and anything else is a poor imitation.
> Now, would you like a cup of water?
>>> Does Celia have a track record of telling lies.
>>
>>Whenever she, as a professing Christian has opposed 1st Century Scripture
>>teaching for women as was taught and commanded by either Christ or the
>>Apostles.
>>
>>'Our' dearly beloved St. Jude sums it up rather well, John.
>>"Now I find I must write of something else instead, urging you to stoutly
>>defend the truth that God gave once for all to his people to keep without
>>change through the years.
>>
>>4 I say this because some godless teachers have wormed their way in among
>>you, saying that after we become Christians we can do just as we like
>>without fear of God’s punishment. The fate of such people was written long
>>ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
>>"
>>Jude 1:3-4 (TLB)
> So she doesn't have a track record of telling lies.
But reading from my book, the Bible and it's content on the roles of women,
her track record is rather abysmal.
And you know I can always prove it!.....{;o;}
> Thanks for
> pointing that out.
Jeff...
Vital Bible Readings for Today
2 Chron...............36
Hosea....................4
Acts.....................20
Intro by Jeff Hickling at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92X0rlMqDGQ
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 7, 2012, 4:55:14 PM11/7/12
to
"John" wrote in message
of your life and will have to answer before him. so while there is life
there is always hope, but don't leave it too long....{;o;}
> I know you won't understand but it has to be an intimate relationship
> between man and Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit.
If that is true, why has the Holy Spirit deserted you, John?
And how come I am still a dedicated believer in the Truth, and you have
folded?
Jeff...
> Whilst I am not a Christian as you rightly say, I still believe God
> and Jesus are true.
Well, you are in the sense that you are responsible to Christ for the rest
> and Jesus are true.
of your life and will have to answer before him. so while there is life
there is always hope, but don't leave it too long....{;o;}
> I know you won't understand but it has to be an intimate relationship
> between man and Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit.
And how come I am still a dedicated believer in the Truth, and you have
folded?
Jeff...
John
Nov 9, 2012, 11:27:03 AM11/9/12
to
On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:55:14 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
Time is short and I am away until Monday but I will try to answer
better next week.
--
John
>> I know you won't understand but it has to be an intimate relationship
>> between man and Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit.
>
>If that is true, why has the Holy Spirit deserted you, John?
Now if I knew the answer to that.....
>> between man and Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit.
>
>If that is true, why has the Holy Spirit deserted you, John?
Time is short and I am away until Monday but I will try to answer
better next week.
--
John
John
Nov 13, 2012, 7:56:37 AM11/13/12
to
On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:55:14 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
intact, even if that results in eternal damnation.
>> I know you won't understand but it has to be an intimate relationship
>> between man and Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit.
>
>If that is true, why has the Holy Spirit deserted you, John?
Various thoughts. One centres around Hebrews 6 & 10, and could simply
mean that when I left Christianity in 1990 (a final straw that broke
the camel's back) there was no return, hence my subsequent furores
into Christianity in 1999 and 2009 were pointless. God "abandoning"
me in 2000 may simply have been a case of Him not being there in the
first place.
Charismaticism isn't of God, and when the test of healing came, it
couldn't possibly have happened. That raises a whole heap of other
questions like, was I genuinely saved in the first place? As you
know, I went through a period of deliverance when I first became a
Christian, was that all a sham? I know it did happen, but was it of
God?
God doesn't exist, and Christianity is man made. The Bible says the
Holy Spirit will lead you into all Truth, I see precious little
evidence of that, as we all have different idea's of what that truth
is, I will have one definition, John C will have another, Phil will
have another, and Ken will have another, and then there's you :-)
>And how come I am still a dedicated believer in the Truth, and you have
>folded?
You have a dogged fixation with preconceived idea's of what the Bible
says. You like to take it literally UNLESS it disagrees with you, in
which case it magically becomes figurative.
To you, it is simply a queston of will power. I prefer a living
faith, will power was never my strong point!
--
John
>"John" wrote in message
>> Whilst I am not a Christian as you rightly say, I still believe God
>> and Jesus are true.
>
>Well, you are in the sense that you are responsible to Christ for the rest
>of your life and will have to answer before him. so while there is life
>there is always hope, but don't leave it too long....{;o;}
Should I have to stand before Him, I am reassured that my integrity is
>> Whilst I am not a Christian as you rightly say, I still believe God
>> and Jesus are true.
>
>Well, you are in the sense that you are responsible to Christ for the rest
>of your life and will have to answer before him. so while there is life
>there is always hope, but don't leave it too long....{;o;}
intact, even if that results in eternal damnation.
>> I know you won't understand but it has to be an intimate relationship
>> between man and Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit.
>
>If that is true, why has the Holy Spirit deserted you, John?
mean that when I left Christianity in 1990 (a final straw that broke
the camel's back) there was no return, hence my subsequent furores
into Christianity in 1999 and 2009 were pointless. God "abandoning"
me in 2000 may simply have been a case of Him not being there in the
first place.
Charismaticism isn't of God, and when the test of healing came, it
couldn't possibly have happened. That raises a whole heap of other
questions like, was I genuinely saved in the first place? As you
know, I went through a period of deliverance when I first became a
Christian, was that all a sham? I know it did happen, but was it of
God?
God doesn't exist, and Christianity is man made. The Bible says the
Holy Spirit will lead you into all Truth, I see precious little
evidence of that, as we all have different idea's of what that truth
is, I will have one definition, John C will have another, Phil will
have another, and Ken will have another, and then there's you :-)
>And how come I am still a dedicated believer in the Truth, and you have
>folded?
says. You like to take it literally UNLESS it disagrees with you, in
which case it magically becomes figurative.
To you, it is simply a queston of will power. I prefer a living
faith, will power was never my strong point!
--
John
Phil Saunders
Nov 17, 2012, 4:07:02 PM11/17/12
to
On 13/11/2012 12:56, John wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:55:14 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
> Traditionalist" <jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> "John" wrote in message
>>> Whilst I am not a Christian as you rightly say, I still believe God
>>> and Jesus are true.
>> Well, you are in the sense that you are responsible to Christ for the rest
>> of your life and will have to answer before him. so while there is life
>> there is always hope, but don't leave it too long....{;o;}
> Should I have to stand before Him, I am reassured that my integrity is
> intact, even if that results in eternal damnation.
My personal opinion is that nobody can say that Jesus is the Christ
> On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:55:14 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
> Traditionalist" <jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> "John" wrote in message
>>> Whilst I am not a Christian as you rightly say, I still believe God
>>> and Jesus are true.
>> Well, you are in the sense that you are responsible to Christ for the rest
>> of your life and will have to answer before him. so while there is life
>> there is always hope, but don't leave it too long....{;o;}
> Should I have to stand before Him, I am reassured that my integrity is
> intact, even if that results in eternal damnation.
except by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who seeks to follow after Jesus will
not lose out by doing so, even to give a cup of water in his name is
rewarded. These things the bible says.
>
>
>>> I know you won't understand but it has to be an intimate relationship
>>> between man and Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit.
>> If that is true, why has the Holy Spirit deserted you, John?
> Various thoughts. One centres around Hebrews 6 & 10, and could simply
> mean that when I left Christianity in 1990 (a final straw that broke
> the camel's back) there was no return, hence my subsequent furores
> into Christianity in 1999 and 2009 were pointless. God "abandoning"
> me in 2000 may simply have been a case of Him not being there in the
> first place.
alone isn't evidence of anything other than that we have feelings.
>
> Charismaticism isn't of God, and when the test of healing came, it
> couldn't possibly have happened. That raises a whole heap of other
> questions like, was I genuinely saved in the first place? As you
> know, I went through a period of deliverance when I first became a
> Christian, was that all a sham? I know it did happen, but was it of
> God?
> God doesn't exist, and Christianity is man made. The Bible says the
> Holy Spirit will lead you into all Truth, I see precious little
> evidence of that, as we all have different idea's of what that truth
> is, I will have one definition, John C will have another, Phil will
> have another, and Ken will have another, and then there's you :-)
Of course we are all being lead into Jesus who is the truth but we kick
and scream as we go.
>
>> And how come I am still a dedicated believer in the Truth, and you have
>> folded?
> You have a dogged fixation with preconceived idea's of what the Bible
> says. You like to take it literally UNLESS it disagrees with you, in
> which case it magically becomes figurative.
>
> To you, it is simply a queston of will power. I prefer a living
> faith, will power was never my strong point!
away from the truth and walled himself up in a mockery of faith and like
Don Quixote he imagines dragons where only windmills exist.
Whilst he claims to believe what the early Christians did he quite
clearly does not in several areas.
1) He believes that the church was overcome for centuries yet the
scriptures say that of the increase of his government there shall be no
end so the church cannot have shrunk, nor can the gates of hell prevail
against it and yet in Jeff's world it did.
2) Jeff has made the order of the books in the NT a matter of faith, for
if Paul said that women could not speak before he said that they could
well there goes that doctrine. The early church didn't do that.
3) Jeff denies the deity of Christ and yet the early church affirmed it
and were attacked by the Jews because of it.
4) Jeff refuses to congregate with other believers yet the early church
did that and rebuked those who did not. Only the sinful and unrepentant
did not join the assembly, so Jeff is in the group of the wilful
unrepentants.
5) The early church were evangelistic, Jeff does not practice
evangelism. He neither preaches in the street nor in the temples, yet
the early Christians did exactly that and were ordered by Christ and
Paul to do so.
There are many more areas where what Jeff claims is Christianity does
not even resemble that faith delivered once for all that we are to hold
fast.
Jeff has the will to continue in his stubborn and proud stance but love
is neither stubborn nor proud.
I commend you to the gospels and doctrines of grace as taught by Jesus,
Paul, Peter, Timothy, John, James and Jude etc in them we find that God
is not far off or looking away but we have allowed ourselves to depend
on what we feel because in the beginning we felt good things that
accompanied the graces of God but the feelings being gone is not an
indication that the grace is gone.
If I may offer an example. When I walked in to a really hot room I took
off my coat, jumper and hat and gloves which meant I felt more
comfortable and did not sweat. When I had done that I no longer felt
hot. The room was not colder and removing more clothing would not have
made it more comfortable as it had done before. Doubting the presence of
the heat in the room because of this would be silly. Taking off more
clothing would make me cold not comfortable and trying to repeat the
experiment would require me to leave the room and go and get properly
cold first.
The presence of the sun is not disproven by the presence of the night.
In fact the shining of the moon proves that the sun has not moved away.
Phil
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 19, 2012, 3:12:33 AM11/19/12
to
"Phil Saunders" wrote in message news:
> Jeff denies the deity of Christ
LOL!
Jeff denies that God's "Beloved Son" is Almighty God and/or is equal in
power, status and eminence.
"Go find my brothers and tell them that I ascend to my Father and your
Father, my God and your God."
John 20:17 (TLB)
Jesus worships and obeys Almighty God, Almighty God worships and obeys
no-one.
God cannot die, Jesus did die because he was the second Adam, another human
being.
"16 We all know he did not come as an angel but as a human being—yes, a Jew.
17 And it was necessary for Jesus to be like us, his brothers, so that he
could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God, a Priest who
would be both merciful to us and faithful to God in dealing with the sins of
the people.
18 For since he himself has now been through suffering and temptation, he
knows what it is like when we suffer and are tempted, and he is wonderfully
able to help us.
Heb 2:16-18 (TLB)
As for power and status:
Almighty God reigns supreme, even now, Christ only sits at God's right hand
and not on the throne with Him.
For as we know once Jesus has destroyed all kingdoms and subjected them to
his IRON rule, then Christ will finally step down and hand ALL power he was
given by God for such a work in progress.
"The end will come when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father,
having put down all enemies of every kind. 25 For Christ will be King until
he has defeated all his enemies, 26 including the last enemy—death. This too
must be defeated and ended. 27 For the rule and authority over all things
has been given to Christ by his Father; except, of course, Christ does not
rule over the Father himself, who gave him this power to rule. 28 When
Christ has finally won the battle against all his enemies, then he, the Son
of God, will put himself also under his Father’s orders, so that God who has
given him the victory over everything else will be utterly supreme.
1 Cor 15:24-28 (TLB)
Frankly, Phil, I would have thought you would be better serving yourself in
keenly moderating your posts in UKRC, if you ever want to get back to normal
posting this side of the New Year!
7 out of 8 already rejected......does that not say something to you?
http://www.ukrc.info/moderation/?reject=y&refer=y&mod=all&days=5
Jeff...
> Jeff denies the deity of Christ
Jeff denies that God's "Beloved Son" is Almighty God and/or is equal in
power, status and eminence.
"Go find my brothers and tell them that I ascend to my Father and your
Father, my God and your God."
John 20:17 (TLB)
Jesus worships and obeys Almighty God, Almighty God worships and obeys
no-one.
God cannot die, Jesus did die because he was the second Adam, another human
being.
"16 We all know he did not come as an angel but as a human being—yes, a Jew.
17 And it was necessary for Jesus to be like us, his brothers, so that he
could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God, a Priest who
would be both merciful to us and faithful to God in dealing with the sins of
the people.
18 For since he himself has now been through suffering and temptation, he
knows what it is like when we suffer and are tempted, and he is wonderfully
able to help us.
Heb 2:16-18 (TLB)
As for power and status:
Almighty God reigns supreme, even now, Christ only sits at God's right hand
and not on the throne with Him.
For as we know once Jesus has destroyed all kingdoms and subjected them to
his IRON rule, then Christ will finally step down and hand ALL power he was
given by God for such a work in progress.
"The end will come when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father,
having put down all enemies of every kind. 25 For Christ will be King until
he has defeated all his enemies, 26 including the last enemy—death. This too
must be defeated and ended. 27 For the rule and authority over all things
has been given to Christ by his Father; except, of course, Christ does not
rule over the Father himself, who gave him this power to rule. 28 When
Christ has finally won the battle against all his enemies, then he, the Son
of God, will put himself also under his Father’s orders, so that God who has
given him the victory over everything else will be utterly supreme.
1 Cor 15:24-28 (TLB)
Frankly, Phil, I would have thought you would be better serving yourself in
keenly moderating your posts in UKRC, if you ever want to get back to normal
posting this side of the New Year!
7 out of 8 already rejected......does that not say something to you?
http://www.ukrc.info/moderation/?reject=y&refer=y&mod=all&days=5
Jeff...
- .. -- Tim .-.
Nov 19, 2012, 4:02:52 AM11/19/12
to
On 19/11/2012 08:12, 1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist wrote:
>
> Frankly, Phil, I would have thought you would be better serving yourself
> in keenly moderating your posts in UKRC, if you ever want to get back to
> normal posting this side of the New Year!
> 7 out of 8 already rejected......does that not say something to you?
> http://www.ukrc.info/moderation/?reject=y&refer=y&mod=all&days=5
>
> Jeff...
Seems to me that the moderators can lie, cheat, misrepresent people and
>
> Frankly, Phil, I would have thought you would be better serving yourself
> in keenly moderating your posts in UKRC, if you ever want to get back to
> normal posting this side of the New Year!
> 7 out of 8 already rejected......does that not say something to you?
> http://www.ukrc.info/moderation/?reject=y&refer=y&mod=all&days=5
>
> Jeff...
misquote people and twist what they say as much as they like without so
much as an apology, let alone being sanctioned themselves.
Tim.
Phil Saunders
Nov 19, 2012, 4:18:49 AM11/19/12
to
On 19/11/2012 08:12, 1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist wrote:
> "Phil Saunders" wrote in message news:
>
>> Jeff denies the deity of Christ
>
> LOL!
> Jeff denies that God's "Beloved Son" is Almighty God and/or is equal
> in power, status and eminence.
> "Go find my brothers and tell them that I ascend to my Father and your
> Father, my God and your God."
> John 20:17 (TLB)
Jeff you may laugh but your quote merely proves my point that you do not
>
>> Jeff denies the deity of Christ
>
> LOL!
> Jeff denies that God's "Beloved Son" is Almighty God and/or is equal
> in power, status and eminence.
> "Go find my brothers and tell them that I ascend to my Father and your
> Father, my God and your God."
> John 20:17 (TLB)
understand scripture.
Let us look at the one you chose from the translation you chose.
Are the people called "brothers" literally Jesus' brothers? No, they are
not. They are in fact his disciples.
Is God the father of the disciples and the father of Jesus? No, God is
the Father of Jesus through the Holy Spirit but the disciples have
literal fathers who are not God.
So you have a verse where literal relationships are not what is being
talked about but spiritual ones. It thus cannot be used to describe the
literal nature of Christ.
However here is one that does
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word
was God"
Later the same author tells us that the Word "became flesh and dwelt
among us".
God, became flesh and dwelt among men.
Could that mean God the Father? No, since he is not the Word because He
was with the Word.
Therefore the person that the Word became was God but not the Father.
Now you must choose from these 2 options
1) Christ was God in the flesh
or
2) God can become not God and is not unchangeable
I will let you tell us which option you believe to be true.
> Jesus worships and obeys Almighty God, Almighty God worships and obeys
> no-one.
> God cannot die, Jesus did die because he was the second Adam, another
> human being.
and be righteous. Christ was God made flesh.
Can God become not God or is Christ God Jeff?
>
> "16 We all know he did not come as an angel but as a human being—yes,
> a Jew. 17 And it was necessary for Jesus to be like us, his brothers,
> so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God,
> a Priest who would be both merciful to us and faithful to God in
> dealing with the sins of the people.
> 18 For since he himself has now been through suffering and temptation,
> he knows what it is like when we suffer and are tempted, and he is
> wonderfully able to help us.
> Heb 2:16-18 (TLB)
Can God become not God or is Christ God Jeff?
>
>
> As for power and status:
> Almighty God reigns supreme, even now, Christ only sits at God's right
> hand and not on the throne with Him.
not.
Can God become not God or is Christ God Jeff?
>
> For as we know once Jesus has destroyed all kingdoms and subjected
> them to his IRON rule, then Christ will finally step down and hand ALL
> power he was given by God for such a work in progress.
>
> "The end will come when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the
> Father, having put down all enemies of every kind. 25 For Christ will
> be King until he has defeated all his enemies, 26 including the last
> enemy—death. This too must be defeated and ended. 27 For the rule and
> authority over all things has been given to Christ by his Father;
> except, of course, Christ does not rule over the Father himself, who
> gave him this power to rule. 28 When Christ has finally won the battle
> against all his enemies, then he, the Son of God, will put himself
> also under his Father’s orders, so that God who has given him the
> victory over everything else will be utterly supreme.
> 1 Cor 15:24-28 (TLB)
>
> Frankly, Phil, I would have thought you would be better serving
> yourself in keenly moderating your posts in UKRC, if you ever want to
> get back to normal posting this side of the New Year!
> 7 out of 8 already rejected......does that not say something to you?
> http://www.ukrc.info/moderation/?reject=y&refer=y&mod=all&days=5
>
> Jeff...
I am being moderated for complaing that you were personally abused by
Celia and then by the moderators and that by doing so they should have
all been sanctioned.
You know this to be true but rather than stand up for what is right, as
Christians are told to do, you would rather hide beind your snide and
silly comments, thinking yourself wise you have become a fool.
You should be as ashamed of yourself as Ken and Mark should be but like
them you have allowed self interest and petty self agrandisment to
become the key aim in your life.
I once attended a brilliant lecture on theology where the lecturer told
how God rebuked him for using his biblical knowledge to win arguments
like some sort of trophy hunter. You don't even have a good knowledge of
scripture, as I have had to point out on not a few occasions, and yet
your aim is not the winning of souls or the increase of the kingdom but
the justification of Jeff.
You think you are rich and comfortable but you do not know that you are
blind and naked. Name the last person you preached the gospel to Jeff,
not told them to be a Christian but told them that through Christ they
can be delivered from all their burdens of sin and fear and enter in to
the glorious kingdom of God. I bet that instead you told them that if
they follow certain rules God might save them.
Phil
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 19, 2012, 4:22:01 AM11/19/12
to
"- .. -- Tim .-." wrote in message
news:UeSdnd7eQ6QgaDTN...@bt.com...
Humm!
It's the product of a Biblically unrefined human nature!
Jeff...
news:UeSdnd7eQ6QgaDTN...@bt.com...
It's the product of a Biblically unrefined human nature!
Jeff...
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 19, 2012, 4:49:44 AM11/19/12
to
"Phil Saunders" wrote in message news:
> Name the last person you preached the gospel to Jeff, not told them to be
> a Christian but told them that through Christ they can be delivered from
> all their burdens of sin and fear and enter in to the glorious kingdom of
> God.
Actually two women, Jenny and her mother Jackie, who own and run the
> a Christian but told them that through Christ they can be delivered from
> all their burdens of sin and fear and enter in to the glorious kingdom of
> God.
'chocolate box' .....over coffee in their village shop some days ago.
> I bet that instead you told them that if they follow certain rules God
> might save them.
they need to know.....{;o;}
Ignorant or ill-informed or misinformed 'Christians' are of little use to
themselves let alone Christ.
Jeff...
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 19, 2012, 5:04:19 AM11/19/12
to
"Phil Saunders" wrote in message news:MRmqs.230873$g62....@fx06.am4...
cleared.
> You know this to be true but rather than stand up for what is right, as
> Christians are told to do, you would rather hide beind your snide and
> silly comments, thinking yourself wise you have become a fool.
Hum!
So I suppose your wisdom is in "your snide and silly comment" which has the
following penalty according to Christ.
"Whoever calls another believer a fool will answer for it in hellfire."
Matt 5:22 (GW)
No wonder you hardly restrain your language, the habit has become so
embedded deep within your soul, it is now part of your personality.
"26 If a person thinks that he is religious but can't control his tongue, he
is fooling himself. That person's religion is worthless."
James 1:26 (GW)
Jeff...
On 19/11/2012 08:12, 1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist wrote:
>> Frankly, Phil, I would have thought you would be better serving yourself
>> in keenly moderating your posts in UKRC, if you ever want to get back to
>> normal posting this side of the New Year!
>> 7 out of 8 already rejected......does that not say something to you?
>> http://www.ukrc.info/moderation/?reject=y&refer=y&mod=all&days=5
>>
>> Jeff...
>> Frankly, Phil, I would have thought you would be better serving yourself
>> in keenly moderating your posts in UKRC, if you ever want to get back to
>> normal posting this side of the New Year!
>> 7 out of 8 already rejected......does that not say something to you?
>> http://www.ukrc.info/moderation/?reject=y&refer=y&mod=all&days=5
>>
>> Jeff...
> I am being moderated for complaing that you were personally abused by
> Celia and then by the moderators and that by doing so they should have all
> been sanctioned.
I did notice, but thought it wiser to keep out of it until the smoke had
> Celia and then by the moderators and that by doing so they should have all
> been sanctioned.
cleared.
> You know this to be true but rather than stand up for what is right, as
> Christians are told to do, you would rather hide beind your snide and
> silly comments, thinking yourself wise you have become a fool.
So I suppose your wisdom is in "your snide and silly comment" which has the
following penalty according to Christ.
"Whoever calls another believer a fool will answer for it in hellfire."
Matt 5:22 (GW)
No wonder you hardly restrain your language, the habit has become so
embedded deep within your soul, it is now part of your personality.
"26 If a person thinks that he is religious but can't control his tongue, he
is fooling himself. That person's religion is worthless."
James 1:26 (GW)
Jeff...
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 19, 2012, 5:19:33 AM11/19/12
to
"Phil Saunders" wrote in message news:MRmqs.230873$g62....@fx06.am4...
incidentally, I prefer my beliefs over your Calvinistic indoctrinated
twisted heresies.
Jeff...
On 19/11/2012 08:12, 1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist wrote:
> "Phil Saunders" wrote in message news:
>>> Jeff denies the deity of Christ
>>
>> LOL!
>> Jeff denies that God's "Beloved Son" is Almighty God and/or is equal in
>> power, status and eminence.
>> "Go find my brothers and tell them that I ascend to my Father and your
>> Father, my God and your God."
>> John 20:17 (TLB)
> Jeff you may laugh but your quote merely proves my point that you do not
> understand scripture.
Look Phil, I understand it perfectly to my own satisfaction and
> "Phil Saunders" wrote in message news:
>>> Jeff denies the deity of Christ
>>
>> LOL!
>> Jeff denies that God's "Beloved Son" is Almighty God and/or is equal in
>> power, status and eminence.
>> "Go find my brothers and tell them that I ascend to my Father and your
>> Father, my God and your God."
>> John 20:17 (TLB)
> Jeff you may laugh but your quote merely proves my point that you do not
> understand scripture.
incidentally, I prefer my beliefs over your Calvinistic indoctrinated
twisted heresies.
Jeff...
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
Nov 20, 2012, 1:19:37 AM11/20/12
to
Is Christadelphianism Christian?
by Matt Slick
No, Christadelphianism is not Christian. Like all cults,
Christadelphianism denies one or more of the essential doctrines of
Christianity: Jesus is God, the physical resurrection, and salvation
by grace. In this case, it is the deity of Christ and salvation by
grace through faith that are the problems with this group.
In regards to Jesus, it teaches that....
Jesus had a sinful nature (The Christadelphians, What They
Believe, by Harry Tennant, The Christadelphian, England, p. 74 - this
is a Christadelphian book.)
Jesus needed salvation, (Christadelphian Answers, ed. by Frank G.
Jannaway, The Herald Press, p. 25 - another Christadelphian book).
Jesus is not God in flesh (Answers, p. 22).
That Jesus' atonement was not substitutionary (Answers, p. 25;
What They Believe, p. 71).
Baptism is necessary for salvation (What They Believe, p. 71,72,
207-210)
Of primary importance is what the Christadelphians say about Jesus.
They deny He is divine in nature. According to John 1:1,14, John 8:58
(with Exodus 3:14), and Col. 2:9, Jesus is God.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we
beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full
of grace and truth," (John 1:1,14).
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham
was born, I am,"(John 8:58). With, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO
I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM
has sent me to you," (Exodus 3:14).
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily
form," (Col. 2:9).
Furthermore, Jesus said in John 8:24, "I said therefore to you, that
you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you
shall die in your sins." Also, John the Apostle said in 1 John 4:2-4,
"By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that
Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit
that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of
the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it
is already in the world." You can see that denying that Jesus has
come in the flesh (that He is God in flesh per John 1:1,14), is the
spirit of antichrist.
Since we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9), it is crucial
to have the proper object of faith. All Satan has to do is to get
someone to believe in a false Jesus and the person is lost (Matt.
24:24). A false Jesus cannot save and only the true Jesus reveals the
true God (John 14:6; Luke 10:22; John 17:3). Since Jesus is actually
God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8), it
follows that those who deny His divine nature -- and ascribe a sinful
one to Him as the Christadelphians do -- cannot have the true Jesus
and are, therefore, serving a false God.
Second, the Christadelphians deny the substitutionary atonement of
Jesus. They say that He did not take our place on the cross and that
He did not bear our sins. This is in direct contradiction to
Scripture. 1 Pet. 2:24 says, "He Himself bore our sins in His body on
the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by
His wounds you were healed." Instead, they teach a kind of
representation that was not effective to remove sin and say, "Christ
did not die as our substitute, but as our representative," (Answers,
p. 25).
Additionally, in Answers, page 24, it says, "But it is equally true
that, being 'made sin for us' (2 Cor. 5:21), he himself required a sin
offering..." In other words, they are saying that Jesus Himself also
needed to be saved. This is absolutely unbiblical and heretical and
needs to be labeled for what it is: false doctrine. Jesus was without
sin (1 Pet. 2:22), the exact representation of the nature of God (Heb.
1:3). Since God is sinless and Holy, so is Jesus in nature and
essence.
Furthermore, the Christadelphians, by having a Jesus who has a sin
nature, cannot have a proper sacrifice by which their sins have an
atonement. According to the Old Testament, the sacrifice for sins had
to be without blemish (Deut. 17:1). Having a sin nature would be a
definite blemish which would invalidate the sacrifice.
Third, the Christadelphians add a work to salvation. They say that
baptism is part of the saving process. But, baptism is not necessary
for salvation. Instead, it is a representation of the inward reality
of regeneration (1 Pet. 3:21), a covenant sign of God's work upon the
heart (Col. 2:11-12). Gal. 5:1-12 speaks of the grave error of some
people who thought that they needed to partake in some part of the Law
(circumcision) to be saved. Paul quickly denounced them with very
strong words (Gal. 5:12).
Additionally, Rom. 5:1 says that we are justified by faith, not by
faith and baptism. Rom. 3:28 says we are saved not by the works of
the Law; that is, not by anything that we do. Since our righteous
deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6), we must completely
rely upon the grace of God for our salvation -- which is by faith in
Jesus who is God, the creator, in flesh.
The Christadelphian religion is a false religion. It is definitely not
Christian. This is not to say that there are not decent people who
intend to serve God honestly and truthfully. But sincerity does not
bridge the gap between God and man. Only the blood of the real Jesus
does that, not a false Christ with a sin nature who himself needed
salvation.
http://carm.org/religious-movements/christadelphianism/christadelphianism-christian
by Matt Slick
No, Christadelphianism is not Christian. Like all cults,
Christadelphianism denies one or more of the essential doctrines of
Christianity: Jesus is God, the physical resurrection, and salvation
by grace. In this case, it is the deity of Christ and salvation by
grace through faith that are the problems with this group.
In regards to Jesus, it teaches that....
Jesus had a sinful nature (The Christadelphians, What They
Believe, by Harry Tennant, The Christadelphian, England, p. 74 - this
is a Christadelphian book.)
Jesus needed salvation, (Christadelphian Answers, ed. by Frank G.
Jannaway, The Herald Press, p. 25 - another Christadelphian book).
Jesus is not God in flesh (Answers, p. 22).
That Jesus' atonement was not substitutionary (Answers, p. 25;
What They Believe, p. 71).
Baptism is necessary for salvation (What They Believe, p. 71,72,
207-210)
Of primary importance is what the Christadelphians say about Jesus.
They deny He is divine in nature. According to John 1:1,14, John 8:58
(with Exodus 3:14), and Col. 2:9, Jesus is God.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we
beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full
of grace and truth," (John 1:1,14).
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham
was born, I am,"(John 8:58). With, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO
I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM
has sent me to you," (Exodus 3:14).
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily
form," (Col. 2:9).
Furthermore, Jesus said in John 8:24, "I said therefore to you, that
you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you
shall die in your sins." Also, John the Apostle said in 1 John 4:2-4,
"By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that
Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit
that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of
the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it
is already in the world." You can see that denying that Jesus has
come in the flesh (that He is God in flesh per John 1:1,14), is the
spirit of antichrist.
Since we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9), it is crucial
to have the proper object of faith. All Satan has to do is to get
someone to believe in a false Jesus and the person is lost (Matt.
24:24). A false Jesus cannot save and only the true Jesus reveals the
true God (John 14:6; Luke 10:22; John 17:3). Since Jesus is actually
God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8), it
follows that those who deny His divine nature -- and ascribe a sinful
one to Him as the Christadelphians do -- cannot have the true Jesus
and are, therefore, serving a false God.
Second, the Christadelphians deny the substitutionary atonement of
Jesus. They say that He did not take our place on the cross and that
He did not bear our sins. This is in direct contradiction to
Scripture. 1 Pet. 2:24 says, "He Himself bore our sins in His body on
the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by
His wounds you were healed." Instead, they teach a kind of
representation that was not effective to remove sin and say, "Christ
did not die as our substitute, but as our representative," (Answers,
p. 25).
Additionally, in Answers, page 24, it says, "But it is equally true
that, being 'made sin for us' (2 Cor. 5:21), he himself required a sin
offering..." In other words, they are saying that Jesus Himself also
needed to be saved. This is absolutely unbiblical and heretical and
needs to be labeled for what it is: false doctrine. Jesus was without
sin (1 Pet. 2:22), the exact representation of the nature of God (Heb.
1:3). Since God is sinless and Holy, so is Jesus in nature and
essence.
Furthermore, the Christadelphians, by having a Jesus who has a sin
nature, cannot have a proper sacrifice by which their sins have an
atonement. According to the Old Testament, the sacrifice for sins had
to be without blemish (Deut. 17:1). Having a sin nature would be a
definite blemish which would invalidate the sacrifice.
Third, the Christadelphians add a work to salvation. They say that
baptism is part of the saving process. But, baptism is not necessary
for salvation. Instead, it is a representation of the inward reality
of regeneration (1 Pet. 3:21), a covenant sign of God's work upon the
heart (Col. 2:11-12). Gal. 5:1-12 speaks of the grave error of some
people who thought that they needed to partake in some part of the Law
(circumcision) to be saved. Paul quickly denounced them with very
strong words (Gal. 5:12).
Additionally, Rom. 5:1 says that we are justified by faith, not by
faith and baptism. Rom. 3:28 says we are saved not by the works of
the Law; that is, not by anything that we do. Since our righteous
deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6), we must completely
rely upon the grace of God for our salvation -- which is by faith in
Jesus who is God, the creator, in flesh.
The Christadelphian religion is a false religion. It is definitely not
Christian. This is not to say that there are not decent people who
intend to serve God honestly and truthfully. But sincerity does not
bridge the gap between God and man. Only the blood of the real Jesus
does that, not a false Christ with a sin nature who himself needed
salvation.
http://carm.org/religious-movements/christadelphianism/christadelphianism-christian
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 20, 2012, 4:33:05 AM11/20/12
to
>Is Christadelphianism Christian?
>by Matt Slick
> No, Christadelphianism is not Christian.
Not only is this man a blatant liar before God, he is also ignorant of
>by Matt Slick
> No, Christadelphianism is not Christian.
Scripture teaching.
Anyone no matter what their 'pedigree', who believes on Christ thus being
"Called by God" obeys Christ's first commandment afterwards, and is THEN
been baptized by water immersion becomes a "Brother of Christ".
Whether they turn out finally as a faithful brother or an unfaithful
brother is a different matter entirely.
Only the judgment seat will declare that one.
" For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on
Christ....... 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and
heirs according to the promise."
Gal 3:27-29 (KJV)
Thus Mr. Slick is not quite so 'Slick' after all.
Sadly the most irrational, ignorant, foolish folks of all, are those who
continue to have the delusion that they are Christians and yet have never
been immersed in the waters of baptism.
Not only are they not Christians or brethren of Christ, they are doomed to
the fires of hell unless they see sense, wake up!!!
Here is true wisdom for Mr. 'not-so-slick' and any other "Silly/Foolish" men
who refuse to baptised AFTER belief.
" And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins,
calling on the name of the Lord"
Acts 22:16 (KJV)
Jeff...
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 20, 2012, 5:01:47 AM11/20/12
to
"Phil Saunders" wrote in message news:
>Are the people called "brothers" literally Jesus' brothers? No, they are
>not.
Yes they are!
>not.
Jesus called them his brothers which is much closer then a mere brother in
the flesh.
>They are in fact his disciples.
>Is God the father of the disciples and the father of Jesus?
"but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute
you; 45 that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven:......Ye
therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matt 5:43-48 (ASV)
"8 Be not therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye
have need of, before ye ask him."
"9 After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name."
"15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father
forgive your trespasses."
Matt 6:8-15 (ASV)
There's stacks more do you want them?
>No, God is the Father of Jesus through the Holy Spirit but the disciples
>have literal fathers who are not God.
"One God and Father of ALL, who is over ALL, and through ALL, and in ALL.
Eph 4:5-6 (ASV)
Amen! for ALL!
>So you have a verse where literal relationships are not what is being
>talked about but spiritual ones. It thus cannot be used to describe the
>literal nature of Christ.
"We all know he did not come as an angel but as a HUMAN being—yes, a Jew. 17
And it was necessary for Jesus to be like us, his brothers"
Heb 2:16-18 (TLB)
Amen!
Jeff...
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 20, 2012, 8:04:42 AM11/20/12
to
"Phil Saunders" wrote in message news:
>You think you are rich
Well take away the few thousand needed to bury me, and then pay my taxes,
and in material aspects I aint that rich.
>and comfortable
Yes! I am 'comfortable' even though living in a 40 year old mobile home,
along with a payment free moored 40 year old boat, going to work in a 9
year old car [at the end of the month] and still working for a living at
aged 68 [at the end of the month.]
>but you do not know that you are blind and naked.
Only the Lord can really answer that one....{;o;}
Jeff...
"1-2 Let me add this, dear brothers: You already know how to please God in
your daily living, for you know the commands we gave you from the Lord Jesus
himself. Now we beg you—yes, we demand of you in the name of the Lord
Jesus—that you live more and more closely to that ideal."
1 Thess 4:1 (TLB)
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
Nov 20, 2012, 12:50:29 PM11/20/12
to
1Co 1:17 -For Christ sent me not to baptize,
but to preach the gospel:
not with wisdom of words,
lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
2Th 3:6 - Now we command you, brethren,
in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh
disorderly,
and not after the tradition which he received of us.
1Ti 3:15 -But if I tarry long,
that thou mayest know
how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God,
which is the church of the living God,
the pillar and ground of the truth.
1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may
wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the
apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a
position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted
bishops
in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to
our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like
what
these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden
mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to "the perfect"
apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them
especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches
themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very
perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving
behind
as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to
these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly,
would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away,
the direst calamity.
2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as
this,
to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to
confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil
self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion,
assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by
indicating
that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very
ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome
by
the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing
out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means
of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity
that
every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-
eminent authority,6 that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the
apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those
[faithful men] who exist everywhere.
3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the
Church,
committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of
this
Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him
succeeded
Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles,
Clement
was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed
apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have
the
preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their
traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there
were
many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles.
In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred
among
the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome despatched a most
powerful
letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their
faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from
the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of
heaven
and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called
Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spake with Moses,
set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for
the
devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so,
may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached
by
the Churches, and may also understand the apostolical tradition of
the
Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are
now
propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god
beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this
Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus;
then,
sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus,
who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then
after
him, Anicetus. Sorer having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now,
in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the
episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical
tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have
come
down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the
same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the
apostles until now, and handed down in truth.
4. But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and
conversed
with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia,
appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early
youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very
old
man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom,7 departed this
life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the
apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are
true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also
those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,-a man
who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth,
than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was
who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away
from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he
had received this one and sole truth from the apostles,-that, namely,
which is handed down by the Church.8 "
Irenaeus Book III, Chapter III
but to preach the gospel:
not with wisdom of words,
lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
2Th 3:6 - Now we command you, brethren,
in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh
disorderly,
and not after the tradition which he received of us.
1Ti 3:15 -But if I tarry long,
that thou mayest know
how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God,
which is the church of the living God,
the pillar and ground of the truth.
1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may
wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the
apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a
position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted
bishops
in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to
our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like
what
these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden
mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to "the perfect"
apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them
especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches
themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very
perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving
behind
as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to
these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly,
would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away,
the direst calamity.
2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as
this,
to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to
confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil
self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion,
assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by
indicating
that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very
ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome
by
the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing
out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means
of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity
that
every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-
eminent authority,6 that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the
apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those
[faithful men] who exist everywhere.
3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the
Church,
committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of
this
Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him
succeeded
Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles,
Clement
was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed
apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have
the
preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their
traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there
were
many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles.
In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred
among
the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome despatched a most
powerful
letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their
faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from
the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of
heaven
and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called
Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spake with Moses,
set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for
the
devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so,
may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached
by
the Churches, and may also understand the apostolical tradition of
the
Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are
now
propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god
beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this
Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus;
then,
sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus,
who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then
after
him, Anicetus. Sorer having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now,
in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the
episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical
tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have
come
down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the
same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the
apostles until now, and handed down in truth.
4. But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and
conversed
with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia,
appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early
youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very
old
man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom,7 departed this
life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the
apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are
true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also
those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,-a man
who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth,
than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was
who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away
from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he
had received this one and sole truth from the apostles,-that, namely,
which is handed down by the Church.8 "
Irenaeus Book III, Chapter III
Phil Saunders
Nov 20, 2012, 6:13:20 PM11/20/12
to
me, sanction me for things that are not sanctionable and then stop all
the posts I send afterward to prove their dishonesty.
They do this because the group lets them. Those that object are punished.
Phil
- .. -- Tim .-.
Nov 21, 2012, 3:13:28 AM11/21/12
to
me, the response of some was to say, "Tim, you're becoming like Phil
Saunders"! But I find that Ken, when his usual strategies have failed,
such as his futile attempts at ridicule, or changing the subject, or
diverting attention to some minor point such as precise definitions of
words, or deliberate choice and use of inflammatory and inaccurate
words, he then switches to lies and attributing claims to people that
they never made.
If challenged on this, he is likely to say, "Oh well, I was just being
sacrastic". In other words, he was hoping his lie would not be spotted,
but when it is he has an excuse ready waiting in the wings. Of course,
sarcasm is "The lowest form of wit" so probably best avoided anyway!
Typical of the more sort-of 'fundamentalist' preacher, he has the
politician's approach of 'Almost NEVER admit you're wrong'. IMO some of
his behaviour reflects the Daily Fail's approach, and perhaps he has
been over-exposed to that awful newspaper!
It is a shame, but just lately he seems to have singled me out for more
rigorous attacks, and IMO it is his persistance in this, rather than any
one incident, that means he has over-stepped the boundaries of what
should be acceptable according to the Charter, but still no apology from
him, and still he has not even been warned let alone sanctioned.
Used to being a preacher 'Six feet above contradiction', he is not able
to accept there are different views held by others that may be just as
valid as his own, and that, like the rest of us, he is going to get it
wrong sometimes!
Tim.
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 21, 2012, 4:10:06 AM11/21/12
to
"Phil Saunders" wrote in message news:9aUqs.600664
~me, sanction me for things that are not sanctionable and then stop all
~the posts I send afterward to prove their dishonesty.
~
~They do this because the group lets them. Those that object are punished.
As Mark has stated, you [and Tim] can go to uk.net.news.moderation and put
your objections there and Mark will answer them without fear of being
moderated or posts rejected.
So you could repost all the ones that he has rejected in ukrc. and air your
case in public so to speak.
Jeff...
On 19/11/2012 09:02, - .. -- Tim .-. wrote:
> On 19/11/2012 08:12, 1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist wrote:
>> Frankly, Phil, I would have thought you would be better serving yourself
>> in keenly moderating your posts in UKRC, if you ever want to get back to
>> normal posting this side of the New Year!
>> 7 out of 8 already rejected......does that not say something to you?
>> http://www.ukrc.info/moderation/?reject=y&refer=y&mod=all&days=5
>>
>> Jeff...
>
> Seems to me that the moderators can lie, cheat, misrepresent people and
> misquote people and twist what they say as much as they like without so
> much as an apology, let alone being sanctioned themselves.
>
> Tim.
~They have been doing that to me for some time now. They tell lies about
> On 19/11/2012 08:12, 1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist wrote:
>> Frankly, Phil, I would have thought you would be better serving yourself
>> in keenly moderating your posts in UKRC, if you ever want to get back to
>> normal posting this side of the New Year!
>> 7 out of 8 already rejected......does that not say something to you?
>> http://www.ukrc.info/moderation/?reject=y&refer=y&mod=all&days=5
>>
>> Jeff...
>
> Seems to me that the moderators can lie, cheat, misrepresent people and
> misquote people and twist what they say as much as they like without so
> much as an apology, let alone being sanctioned themselves.
>
> Tim.
~me, sanction me for things that are not sanctionable and then stop all
~the posts I send afterward to prove their dishonesty.
~
~They do this because the group lets them. Those that object are punished.
As Mark has stated, you [and Tim] can go to uk.net.news.moderation and put
your objections there and Mark will answer them without fear of being
moderated or posts rejected.
So you could repost all the ones that he has rejected in ukrc. and air your
case in public so to speak.
Jeff...
Phil Saunders
Nov 21, 2012, 5:11:33 AM11/21/12
to
Mark knows that the group has no authority to take any action. It does
not require him to answer anything at all. By moving the discussion away
from the NG he hides it from most of the group.
Go and check the server and you will see that after the 7th of November
none of my posts were rejected until after I pointed out that the period
of moderation was over. At that point Mark claimed that it wasn't and
then rejected a post to make another 7 days of manual moderation possible.
If you had any integrity you would do that, so you won't.
So here, for your delectation is the proof
article reached server at 2012-11-05 19:17:48
refer to moderator at 2012-11-05 19:20:10
- *manual reject * at 2012-11-07 07:39:53
Moderator: mark
the very next entry is
article reached server at 2012-11-16 11:14:55
refer to moderator at 2012-11-16 11:20:01
- *manual reject * at 2012-11-17 12:12:09
Moderator: mark
Now count the days between them and you will find that it is more than 7.
Mark is a liar, proven to be so yet again.
Phil
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 21, 2012, 5:20:30 AM11/21/12
to
"Phil Saunders" wrote in message news:gP1rs.345592$W63.1...@fx05.am4...
~Jeff
~Mark knows that the group has no authority to take any action. It does
~not require him to answer anything at all. By moving the discussion away
~from the NG he hides it from most of the group.
OK.
Suit yourself, but at least your rejected posts would get an airing.
Jeff..
~Mark knows that the group has no authority to take any action. It does
~not require him to answer anything at all. By moving the discussion away
~from the NG he hides it from most of the group.
OK.
Suit yourself, but at least your rejected posts would get an airing.
Jeff..
Phil Saunders
Nov 21, 2012, 5:21:40 AM11/21/12
to
I am not a self publicist
Phil
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 21, 2012, 5:26:05 AM11/21/12
to
wrote in message news:c0193a55-37ca-4f8d-b62e-
baptism"
then.
Stay as you are, still in your sins and no hope of everlasting life.
Like I say, it's your choice, but you can never tell the the Lord you were
never warned, time after time, after time.
Jeff...
"16 And now, why delay? Go and be baptized and be cleansed from your sins,
calling on the name of the Lord.’
Acts 22:16 (TLB)
>1Co 1:17 -For Christ sent me not to baptize,
>but to preach the gospel:
>not with wisdom of words,
>lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
We, it's your choice don't get baptised in water "Buried with him in
>but to preach the gospel:
>not with wisdom of words,
>lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
baptism"
then.
Stay as you are, still in your sins and no hope of everlasting life.
Like I say, it's your choice, but you can never tell the the Lord you were
never warned, time after time, after time.
Jeff...
"16 And now, why delay? Go and be baptized and be cleansed from your sins,
calling on the name of the Lord.’
Acts 22:16 (TLB)
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 21, 2012, 5:29:02 AM11/21/12
to
"Phil Saunders" wrote in message news:KY1rs.345593$W63....@fx05.am4...
~ And?
Seven posts seems a lot of work for nothing.
Jeff...
Seven posts seems a lot of work for nothing.
Jeff...
Phil Saunders
Nov 21, 2012, 5:29:12 AM11/21/12
to
Phil
Steve Wilson
Nov 21, 2012, 12:18:08 PM11/21/12
to
why should any of it warrant moderation? It almost seems that you want
to shut-down posters that succeed in getting under your skin.
I don't like u.k.r.c because it's moderation threshold is too low. I
find it makes for a rather artificial environment.
Steve Wilson
- .. -- Tim .-.
Nov 21, 2012, 3:04:53 PM11/21/12
to
John
Nov 22, 2012, 6:55:40 AM11/22/12
to
On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 21:07:02 +0000, Phil Saunders
<philip....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>On 13/11/2012 12:56, John wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:55:14 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
>> Traditionalist" <jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "John" wrote in message
>>>> Whilst I am not a Christian as you rightly say, I still believe God
>>>> and Jesus are true.
>>> Well, you are in the sense that you are responsible to Christ for the rest
>>> of your life and will have to answer before him. so while there is life
>>> there is always hope, but don't leave it too long....{;o;}
>> Should I have to stand before Him, I am reassured that my integrity is
>> intact, even if that results in eternal damnation.
>
>My personal opinion is that nobody can say that Jesus is the Christ
>except by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who seeks to follow after Jesus will
>not lose out by doing so, even to give a cup of water in his name is
>rewarded. These things the bible says.
True
<philip....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>On 13/11/2012 12:56, John wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:55:14 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
>> Traditionalist" <jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "John" wrote in message
>>>> Whilst I am not a Christian as you rightly say, I still believe God
>>>> and Jesus are true.
>>> Well, you are in the sense that you are responsible to Christ for the rest
>>> of your life and will have to answer before him. so while there is life
>>> there is always hope, but don't leave it too long....{;o;}
>> Should I have to stand before Him, I am reassured that my integrity is
>> intact, even if that results in eternal damnation.
>
>My personal opinion is that nobody can say that Jesus is the Christ
>except by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who seeks to follow after Jesus will
>not lose out by doing so, even to give a cup of water in his name is
>rewarded. These things the bible says.
>> Charismaticism isn't of God, and when the test of healing came, it
>> couldn't possibly have happened. That raises a whole heap of other
>> questions like, was I genuinely saved in the first place? As you
>> know, I went through a period of deliverance when I first became a
>> Christian, was that all a sham? I know it did happen, but was it of
>> God?
>
>Deliverance is a hard way round rather than the direct way.
Sorry, I've only just seen this post, but thank you for your
encouragement.
--
John
Phil Saunders
Nov 22, 2012, 12:00:24 PM11/22/12
to
you are truly free.
If the son shall set you free then you shall be free indeed. One
requires no more deliverance than knowing this to be true.
Phil
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 22, 2012, 4:59:21 PM11/22/12
to
"John" wrote in message news:te4sa85rtqc9eprgl...@4ax.com...
" Even the demons believe that--and shudder."
James 2:19 (NIV)
On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 21:07:02 +0000, Phil Saunders
>>My personal opinion is that nobody can say that Jesus is the Christ
>>except by the Holy Spirit.
>
>True!
>>except by the Holy Spirit.
>
" Even the demons believe that--and shudder."
James 2:19 (NIV)
Phil Saunders
Nov 22, 2012, 6:56:18 PM11/22/12
to
true. If you deny it then you deny the scripture.
You are such a dumb ass
Phil
John
Nov 23, 2012, 3:32:06 AM11/23/12
to
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 21:59:21 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
1 Corinthians 12:3 Not like you to deny scripture. (Actually you
have twisted the verse by leaving the first part out, but no matter)
Do you actually believe what James says here? You can't dismiss this
as human nature because our human nature denies there is one God.
--
John
have twisted the verse by leaving the first part out, but no matter)
Do you actually believe what James says here? You can't dismiss this
as human nature because our human nature denies there is one God.
--
John
John
Nov 23, 2012, 3:32:52 AM11/23/12
to
My story s here about half way down.
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.religion.christian/browse_thread/thread/1c59971638702a46/bc368a593575b3a8?hl=en-GB&lnk=gst&q=leave+him+alone#bc368a593575b3a8
--
John
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Nov 23, 2012, 4:07:22 PM11/23/12
to
"John" wrote in message
>Do you actually believe what James says here? You can't dismiss this
>as human nature because our human nature denies there is one God.
Not according to St.Paul.
"20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are
clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his
everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse"
Romans 1:20 (ASV)
Jeff...
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 21:59:21 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
>"John" wrote in message news:te4sa85rtqc9eprgl...@4ax.com...
>On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 21:07:02 +0000, Phil Saunders
>>>>My personal opinion is that nobody can say that Jesus is the Christ
>>>>except by the Holy Spirit.
>>>
>>>True!
>>
>>" Even the demons believe that--and shudder."
>>James 2:19 (NIV)
> 1 Corinthians 12:3 Not like you to deny scripture. (Actually you
> have twisted the verse by leaving the first part out, but no matter)
It still applies.
>On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 21:07:02 +0000, Phil Saunders
>>>>My personal opinion is that nobody can say that Jesus is the Christ
>>>>except by the Holy Spirit.
>>>
>>>True!
>>
>>" Even the demons believe that--and shudder."
>>James 2:19 (NIV)
> 1 Corinthians 12:3 Not like you to deny scripture. (Actually you
> have twisted the verse by leaving the first part out, but no matter)
>Do you actually believe what James says here? You can't dismiss this
>as human nature because our human nature denies there is one God.
"20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are
clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his
everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse"
Romans 1:20 (ASV)
Jeff...
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