Fwd: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a Hard Sell? London 18th Oct 2012

[Herbert Eppel]

I note that Clavertonian David Hirst recommends this, so it must be good :-)

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a Hard Sell? London
18th Oct 2012
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 04:53:22 -0500
From: thomas_b...@btconnect.com
Reply-To: thomas_b...@btconnect.com
To: Energy-l <ener...@lists.iisd.ca>

Date and time: 18th October 2012 9.00am

Location: Hogan Lovells Auditorium, Holborn Viaduct, London, EC1A 2FG

visit: www.smartenergyjourney.co.uk

Cost: £295+VAT – Please quote discount code sej10 (case sensitive) when
booking for a 10% discount

Are we leaving the consumer behind on our journey towards the Smart
Energy Revolution?
Success will depend on active participation from the consumer - not
passive consent - and the technology will only deliver results if
consumers drive it. That must put the consumer, and their comfort,
control and - crucially – savings at the centre of the rollout.

Following last February’s successful two day event, “Delivering the New
Energy Economy”, this seminar brings together all aspects of the smart
spectrum and addresses the key consumer and policy issues affecting the
smart energy transformation.

Consumers always want something different and new – so why is Smart such
a hard sell?

Session 1: Beyond SMIP - Market Design to Deliver on the Low Carbon Promise

Panel Discussion: Market Infrastructure and the Evolving Energy Market

Session 2: Consumer Engagement - Does the Consumer Want What the
Industry Is Offering?

Session 3: Decentralisation - Innovation vs Operational Reality
For more information please

About the Energy and Utility Forum
This event is organised in conjunction with the Energy and Utility
Forum. The Energy and Utility Forum brings together policy makers and
policy shapers in the energy and utilities sectors through
invitation-only events. This enables senior industry figures to discuss
issues of particular importance with key politicians and civil servants
on an informal and open basis. Both sides of the debate and subsequent
policy decisions are, as a result, better informed. Forum discussions
are not a form of lobbying (for either side of the debate) and those
attending events are sufficiently diverse to ensure there can be no
single or parochial point of view. For more information
www.energyandutilityforum.org.uk

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[David Hirst]

Do I?
I did meet another David Hirst at the conference they organised that I went
to in February, and did enjoy the conference, and might even have said nice
things about it, but have not said anything about this one to my knowledge.
But we David Hirsts must show some solidarity, so I can probably support any
statements he made!
To my taste the last event was a bit too corporate and city and finance
oriented. But that, I fear, is the way the world is. And the money extracted
is put to good purposes.
Smart is a hard sell mostly because it isn't Smart.
I do not really believe that corporate thinking is able to deliver what
electricity consumers want. Choice is valueless, and merely gives corporate
VILES opportunities to confuse us. What I want is a good solid sensible and
long term sustainable service, at a reasonable price, without the risk of
getting ripped off or unduly exploited. And I want the industry to
decarbonise, not just to offer me a fairly meaningless feel good low carbon
branded service. I do not want to have to wade through propaganda (on the
benefits of Smart Meters, for example) designed to serve others interests,
and do things that benefit them at my expense. What we are told should be
honest "public service" information, and not buried either in ideological
nonsense.
And decentralisation is unlikely to be worthwhile.
So I am not sure I want to spend £295 to be told why I am wrong!
But I am open to persuasion and sponsorship!
Cheers
David
David Hirst
!-!?!-Hirst Solutions Limited
Mobile:  +44 7831 405443

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For Claverton website visit http://www.claverton-energy.com/

[Neil Crumpton]

Is the proposed UK roll-out of smart meters mandatory - I thought that it was ?  Ed Davey's comment below says 'no legal obligation' "

We believe smart meters will bring important benefits to consumers and to the nation. So I do hope that when your energy supplier offers you the opportunity to have a smart meter you will decide that you want to take up the offer. However, there will not be a legal obligation on individuals to have one.

Edward Davey

http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/about/contact_us/sos_campaigns/ed_resp_stopsm/ed_resp_stopsm.aspx

I note that when looked at more closely most households would not benefit :

http://www.euractiv.com/specialreport-access-energy/consumers-weak-smart-meter-roll-news-513445

It states : 

....However, the consulting firm Frontier Economics has developed a model based on 200 different types of households in order to assess for which consumers smart meters would be financially beneficial. In one case, just 15% of surveyed households in Germany benefited from the country’s compulsory roll-out of smart meters. .... ULB researchers analysed six energy industry studies on the use of smart meters showing savings of between 2-4% in the best cases where consumers opted for their use. The six studies were undertaken by EDF (France), E.ON (Germany), Scottish Power, SSE (Scottish and Southern Energy), CER (Commission for Energy Regulation in Ireland) and Intelliekon (Germany).

I can't figure out what I would do differently to save electricity - I don't have a washing machine to run in the middle of the night (disturbing neighbours and myself / kids etc) and I'm certainly not going to delay boiling water for a cup of tea until the wind is blowing strongly. On a typical annual consumer electricity bill of say £ 500 a 3 % saving (estimated by ULB) would amount to £ 15 a year (note : for whatever percentage of the UK population who are in debt a £ 300 meter would cost around £ 50 per year in interest repayments on a typical bank overdraft - three times as much as the saving !).  

I did some calculations below to assess to what degree smart meters would avoid the back-up gas burn (as per the Hughes discussion) and worked out the comparative costs over the 2020s and beyond. I concluded no benefit on anything like a 3 % electricity bill reduction - due to the interest repayments on the 'investment'.

So can I opt out of having a smart meter - especially if someone shows that an alternative spend (eg on insulation and or CHP-DH) would be a better investment ?

Neil

------------------------------

 

Presumably the main ? energy benefit of a smart Grid would be to smooth Grid electricity demand so reducing warm and cold start ups from the CCGT back-up fleet beyond 2020 (which in a recent Claverton discussion was estimated to reduce theoretical maximum RES gas displacement / savings by say 15-20 %  - fair? ). Would it be right to say IF no back-up were needed then meters could not save any energy/money ? I roughly estimated a back-up burn rising from about 20+ TWh/y in 2020 to around 50 TWh/y in the 2025-2030 period in UK but then declining again post 2030 as more RES comes on stream.

The actual electricity saving would be around 100 kWh per year per domestic consumer assuming a 3 % saving on a 3,400 kWh average annual household consumption - which would save 200 kWh of gas (assuming 50 % CCGT efficiency in back-up mode). If the electricity saving was 3 % across all electricity consumers/sectors then the saving would be about 11 TWh/y of electricity (3 % of 360 TWh/y annual UK consumption to 2030) and so 22 TWh/y of gas avoided (to fuel the CCGTs) at most in the late 2020s - that could be a massive 40 % of the back-up burn being avoided !

Has anyone done / seen any figures as to how much gas a meter-smoothed electricity demand could save per year in gas (imports) and per decade ? Presumably the savings would increase as more RES is built between introduction in 2020 and 2030, rather than being a flat (eg 11 TWh/y / 3 %)  figure.

NGs estimated 2025 central gas price is 90+ pence per therm or £ 31 million per TWh of gas energy in 2025 (34.12 million Therms = 1 TWh of gas) rising from 80p/Therm in 2020 to 100 p/Them by 2030. So 50 TWh/y of 'back-up' gas would cost £ 1.55 billion per year in the mid 2020s rising to £ 1.7 billion by 2030. However, this back-up fuel burn / cost would decline post 2030 as or if more RES is connected up and further reduces troughs etc and consequent fill-ins by gas / CCGT (and much less still IF fuel cells become available). So how much gas energy would smart meters save post 2030 - indeed, assuming the proposed smart meters lifetime was about 30 years from 2020 to 2050. 

A net 'smart-meter' saving of 3 % or 22 TWh/y of (gas) energy avoided would save up to £ 680 million a year in mid 2020s and may rise/peak ? at £ 750 million per year by 2030 on this reckoning. So, the saving over the decade could be up to £ 6.8 billion between 2020-2030 (assuming a total back-up burn of 220 TWh/y over the decade at a cost of £ 31 m/TWh). OR - if the gas burn avoided by meters rises from say 11-22 TWh/y over the 2020s (as I guestimated) as more RES is built then the gas back-up burn over the decade would amount to 165 TWh (10 x 22+11/2) with a total cost avoided of about £ 5.5 billion (assuming a weighted cost of £ 33 m/TWh of gas over the decade). Beyond 2030 the electricity / gas savings would be difficult to assess but probably declining rapidly, dependent on RES roll-out scenario / technology (eg fuel cells) and infrastructure deployed (eg inter-connectors). So a £ 9 billion ? meter UK roll-out spend by 2020 might save £ 9 billion between 2020 across their lifetime (ie to 2050 ish). In which case it would be a very bad investment - due to the interest on 'investment'.

I saw a figure of about £ 9 billion for a UK Smart Meter roll-out - has an 'equivalent spend' on insulation or CHP been assessed in terms of comparative 'energy' benefits (smart meters decreed as 'energy saving'  - and easier billing/user profiling/snooping) ?

I think an additional £ 9 billion spent on insulation and or CHP by 2020 would be a better investment over the period to 2050 (and beyond assuming some/many insulation measures and most DH networks have lifetime of say up to 80+ years).

--------------

[star...@yahoo.com]

Dear Neil and others

 

Smart meters are not mandatory....when I was rung up about a date when I could have one installed , I told British Gas I did not want one....I asked why should I be installing more China manufactured electronics to put British workers out of jobs.....I have not been bothered since.

 

Please spread this message

 

Fred Starr

http://www.hetranslation.co.uk/

[dave andrews]

The benefits to the utilities are huge - can sack meter readers, and have the ability to cut consumers off remotely.  The load management capability and the cost benefit are trivial. Why should we have to pay to yet further inflate their profits?

Dave

Dave Andrews

http://www.claverton-energy.com/

+ 44 (0)  755 265 9166
+ 31 (0)  631 926 885
+ 44 (0) 1225 837978
 
 

[Frank Holland]

Dave,

I guess that when we re-nationalise the lot there will be a benefit to
us as owners, until then why bother.

Frank

[Nick Balmer]

Hello,

As some body who has a Smart Meter installed, and then had the
frustration of having it removed, perhaps my experience might be
useful.

I moved my electricity and gas contract to First Utility just over
three years ago, largely because they offered to install Smart Meters.

It took nearly two years before it was installed.

When I asked them why they hadn't installed it, I was told "because
they hadn't started in my area yet." (Northern Home Counties)

By chance, I encountered the Marketing Director of First Utility at a
conference, where I laid out my disatisfaction. About a month later
they were installing in my area, and I got Smart Metering.

I found it very interesting, and tried quite hard to alter my
households habits to change their habits. This proved quite difficult
until after we had solar panels, and my wife became enthusiastic about
waiting until the sun came out. We were able to shift quite a lot of
our usage to daylight hours. My son who has learnt student hours has
been far more difficult to get to change his habits.

Sadly, assuming that they had me locked in First Utility started to
jack up their prices, to the point that they were performing very
poorly compared with other suppliers.

I put up this this until I found that even companies offering Green
Energy like Ecotricity and Good Energy were cheaper.

At that point I decided to change to Ecotricity.

Here my problems started because it turns out that First Utility had
installed Smart Meters that neither Ecotricity or Good Energy (and
several other conventional suppliers) could read.

The end result is that although I have a Smart Electricity meter I
cannot access the data unless I go back to First Utility. The Smart
Gas meter could not be read, and has been replaced with a new Dumb
Meter.

Smart meters are intrinsically at odds with the basic interests of
energy selling companies. They undoubtedly allow the customer to
reduce energy use by making intelligent decisions.

The very last thing energy sellers want is well informed customers, as
they will start to reduce usage.

Reduced usage means reduced sales and profits.

We need government to develop a common standard for smart meters so
that all suppliers can read them, and customers as well.

The specification for these meters should not be set by the energy
selling companies who will deliberately sabotage and delay meters for
as long as possible. The specification should be set independently,
and then the supplied to householders.

Regards

Nick Balmer

[Bill Bordass]

Dear Nick

Sadly you are not the only person who can tell a similar story.

As I see it "Smartt Metering" (not very smart actually) is a demand-side technology that has been captured by the supply side.

The fact that we have these idiotic arrangements and that the suppliers can charge their customers for operating them is scandalous.

The sooner energy suppliers go back to being local regulated monopolies (as they did in California, not that California is perfect), the better. Then they have a chance of working properly with their customers to do technically sensible things, including demand-side, community and renewable systems where appropriate. Owners, occupiers and markets may change, but the buildings, equipment and suppliers stay together.

Oh, dear

Bill

[David Hirst]

But Bill, people keep telling me that the UK is the most advanced in enabling competition, even the Japanese! We even have trade delegations singing the praises of competition to the third world.

Personally, I think competition has been a retrograde step, back to the lunacies of the early 1900s.

I wish politicians would get on with leading and managing the great institutions of the country, like the NHS, and the electricity system, and the railways, and not set out on grand ideological top down reorganisations, whose major impact is to destroy expertise and capability, and replace it with greed as a driver. It happened with rail, it has happened with electricity, and it is happening with the HNS.

At the moment the main competition seems to be between Osborne and Davey, between gas and wind, and between nuclear and the rest of us. I can see little of value emerging.

The centrally managed, centrally dictated, and vastly expensive dumb meter programme is mostly expensive because of the complexity of administering a sort of pretend competition, so that any potential benefits from supposed incentives to be efficient are vastly outweighed by the stifling effect of a large bureaucratic system that fails to enable to the real opportunities from effective influencing of demand.

The only sensible answer is a return to local monopoly retailing of energy with democratic accountability. Successful and effective well before I was born, and what happens in most of the USA.

[Herbert Eppel]

As it happens, I'll be attending a pertinent in Leicester this evening – see details below.

Do you want to send me a list of questions to ask? :-)

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk

Smart home energy management system
Date: 29 October 2012
Time: 18.30 - 20.30
Venue: De Montfort University, Room 207, Hugh Aston Building, The Gateway, Leicester LE1 9BH

This talk provides a timely report from E.ON on their experiences with energy feedback and smart homes. The event will be interactive, providing an opportunity to see what E.ON has learnt and what their trial participants have learnt about energy use in their own home.

Chris Utting, New Technology Consultant, E.ON Energy Infrastructure and End, will use this talk to provide an insight into the energy consumption characteristics of 75 homes in Milton Keynes. The speaker will demonstrate how much an average user knows about energy in their home. This will include some energy myth busting about where our money/energy really goes. The event will also include an overview and interactive demonstration of a Smart Home Energy Management System, one that’s real and not as complex or high tech as we may normally associate with a Smart Home. There will be a demo and overview of what the system does.

The talk will set out the value of a Smart Home system to E.ON, what they have learnt about consumers’ energy consumption, when people use devices and how much energy they use. Refreshments will be served prior to the presentation so please do let us know in advance if you can come along so we have an idea of numbers.

[Steve Browning]

Hi Herb, it will be interesting to see what EoNs conclusions are and what their HEMS can do.  Are there any reports around already?

 

I have a (free) EoN EnergyFit house Electricity demand monitor just to my right, connected (originally after some pain with their firmware/software) to my PC.

I now have over 2 years of 2 hourly demands but that doesent in itself help much with understanding appliance demand use.  It does tell me that demand went up when Marian started working from home.

 

The UK Smart meter initiative is mainly concerned with monitoring (much emphasis on In Home Displays) and of course AMR which will save a fortune in meter readers, allow premises faults to be detected more quickly and enable remote control to restrict supply for non-payment etc.  Note that the massive Italian Smart meter exercise (31million units) was justified on AMR and control of premises supply to combat fraud.

 

There were 100 Smart pilot projects in the States, bankrolled by @£3.7bn of (federal) American Recovery and Reinvestment money.  Some issues in rollout were experienced, especially when PG&E got slapped with a class action lawsuit when the bills went up in Bakersfield due to a coincident rate hike at the time the meters were being installed!  That prompted much action on Customer Engagement (and I wrote FPS 21).  I'm also involved in a GB project n Customer psychology.

 

What seems to come out of the US pilots, apart from AMR, fault detection and supply control, is that some preset Time of Use tariffs can improve main generation operation and customer costs, if applied carefully. 

 

My ideas on storage, smoothing and price influenced control of premises import/export (especially larger sites with CHP) go right back to 2004.

 

Regards

 

Steve

www.eleceffic.com (to get at the FPS docs).

>> From: energy-discussion-group@googlegroups.com

>> [mailto:energy-discussion-gr...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of

[dave andrews]

Hear Hear!

The fundamental stupidity of the basic philosophy of the EU and this govt  is that by introducing competition at all levels, you introduce massive uncertainty and risk and this leads to players having to borrow money at hugely expensive rates, which of course delights the quasi-criminally minded banks ( who foisted this philosophy in the first place).

With regulated monopolies  ie the uk water industry, investors fall over themselves to hand there cash, because effectively they are an arm of government, handed a government backed indefinite monopoly and the right to set prices to guarantee returns,

Exactly the same structure could be set up for chpdh the lowest cost form of carbon reduction and which fits perfectly with high levels of wind energy.

Dave

[Steve Browning]

Hi Nick

 

The issue of early innovation and 'stranded assets' raises its head again.  At least the UK Smart meter project should set up standard proptocols for communication with the premises!!

 

I'm currently in the process of swapping to a First Utility fixed to 3M2014 deal so it will be intersting to see what they want to do with the meters

 

Regards

 

Steve

[Herbert Eppel]

Hi Steve

Yes, sure, I'll ask whether reports are available?

Anything else?

Perhaps I should ask whether the EoN EnergyFit monitors are still useful for customers who decide switch to Ecotricity? :-)

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk

On 29.10.2012 09:15 UK Time, Steve Browning wrote:

Hi Herb, it will be interesting to see what EoNs conclusions are and what their HEMS can do.� Are there any reports around�already?

�

I have a (free)�EoN EnergyFit house Electricity demand monitor just to my right, connected (originally after some pain with their firmware/software) to my PC.

I now have over 2 years of 2 hourly demands but that doesent in itself help much with understanding appliance demand use.� It does tell me that demand went up when Marian started working from home.

�

The UK Smart meter initiative is mainly concerned with monitoring (much emphasis on In Home Displays) and of course AMR which will save a fortune in meter readers, allow premises�faults to be detected more quickly and enable remote control to restrict supply for non-payment etc.� Note that the massive Italian Smart meter exercise (31million units) was justified on AMR and control of premises supply to combat fraud.

�

There were 100 Smart pilot projects in the States, bankrolled by @�3.7bn of (federal) American Recovery and Reinvestment money.� Some issues in rollout were experienced, especially when PG&E got slapped with a class action lawsuit when the bills went up in Bakersfield due to a coincident rate hike at the time the meters were being installed!� That prompted much action on Customer Engagement (and I wrote FPS 21).� I'm also involved in a GB project n Customer psychology.

�

What seems to come out of the US pilots, apart from�AMR, fault detection and supply control,�is that some preset Time of Use tariffs can improve main generation operation and customer costs, if applied carefully.�

�

My ideas on storage, smoothing and price influenced control of premises import/export (especially larger sites with CHP) go right back to 2004.

�

Regards

�

Steve

www.eleceffic.com (to get at the FPS docs).

�

On Monday, 29 October 2012 08:51:41 UTC, HerbEppel wrote:

As it happens, I'll be attending a pertinent in Leicester this evening � see details below.

Do you want to send me a list of questions to ask? :-)

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk

Smart home energy management system
Date: 29 October 2012
Time: 18.30 - 20.30
Venue: De Montfort University, Room 207, Hugh Aston Building, The Gateway, Leicester LE1 9BH

This talk provides a timely report from E.ON on their experiences with energy feedback and smart homes. The event will be interactive, providing an opportunity to see what E.ON has learnt and what their trial participants have learnt about energy use in their own home.

Chris Utting, New Technology Consultant,�E.ON Energy Infrastructure�and End, will use this talk to provide an insight into the energy consumption characteristics of 75 homes in Milton Keynes. The speaker will demonstrate how much an average user knows about energy in their home. This will include some energy myth busting about where our money/energy really goes. The event will also include an overview and interactive demonstration of a Smart Home Energy Management System, one that�s real and not as complex or high tech as we may normally associate with a Smart Home. There will be a demo and overview of what the system does.

The talk will set out the value of a Smart Home system to E.ON, what they have learnt about consumers� energy consumption, when people use devices and how much energy they use. Refreshments will be served prior to the presentation so please do let us know in advance if you can come along so we have an idea of numbers.

On 29.10.2012 08:26 UK Time, David Hirst wrote:

But Bill, people keep telling me that the UK is the most advanced in enabling competition, even the Japanese! We even have trade delegations singing the praises of competition to the third world.

Personally, I think competition has been a retrograde step, back to the lunacies of the early 1900s.

I wish politicians would get on with leading and managing the great institutions of the country, like the NHS, and the electricity system, and the railways, and not set out on grand ideological top down reorganisations, whose major impact is to destroy expertise and capability, and replace it with greed as a driver. It happened with rail, it has happened with electricity, and it is happening with the HNS.

At the moment the main competition seems to be between Osborne and Davey, between gas and wind, and between nuclear and the rest of us. I can see little of value emerging.

The centrally managed, centrally dictated, and vastly expensive dumb meter programme is mostly expensive because of the complexity of administering a sort of pretend competition, so that any potential benefits from supposed incentives to be efficient are vastly outweighed by the stifling effect of a large bureaucratic system that fails to enable to the real opportunities from effective influencing of demand.

The only sensible answer is a return to local monopoly retailing of energy with democratic accountability. Successful and effective well before I was born, and what happens in most of the USA.

Cheers

David

David Hirst

!-!?!-Hirst Solutions Limited

Mobile:� +44 7831 405443

�

-----Original Message-----
From: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com [mailto:energy-discussion-gr...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bordass
Sent: 29 October 2012 08:05
To: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Claverton] Fwd: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a Hard Sell? London 18th Oct 2012

�

Dear Nick

�

Sadly you are not the only person who can tell a similar story.

�

As I see it "Smartt Metering" (not very smart actually) is a demand-side technology that has been captured by the supply side.�

�

The fact that we have these idiotic arrangements and that the suppliers can charge their customers for operating them is scandalous.

�

The sooner energy suppliers go back to being local regulated monopolies (as they did in California, not that California is perfect), the better.� Then they have a chance of working properly with their customers to do technically sensible things, including demand-side, community and renewable systems where appropriate.� Owners, occupiers and markets may change, but the buildings, equipment and suppliers stay together.

�

Oh, dear

�

Bill

�

�

�

On 29 Oct 2012, at 07:40, Nick Balmer wrote:

�

> cannot access the data unless I go back to First Utility.� The Smart

> Gas meter could not be read, and has been replaced with a new Dumb

> Meter.

>

> Smart meters are intrinsically at odds with the basic interests of

> energy selling companies. They undoubtedly allow the customer to

> reduce energy use by making intelligent decisions.

>

> The very last thing energy sellers want is well informed customers, as

> they will start to reduce usage.

>

> Reduced usage means reduced sales and profits.

>

> We need government to develop a common standard for smart meters so

> that all suppliers can read them, and customers as well.

>

> The specification for these meters should not be set by the energy

> selling companies who will deliberately sabotage and delay meters for

> as long as possible.� The specification should be set independently,

> and then the supplied to householders.

>

> Regards

>

> Nick Balmer

>

> On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Neil Crumpton

> <neil.c...@btconnect.com> wrote:

>> Is the proposed UK roll-out of smart meters mandatory - I thought

>> that it was ?� Ed Davey's comment below says 'no legal obligation' "

>>

>> We believe smart meters will bring important benefits to consumers

>> and to the nation. So I do hope that when your energy supplier offers

>> you the opportunity to have a smart meter you will decide that you

>> want to take up the offer. However, there will not be a legal

>> obligation on individuals to have one.

>> Edward Davey

>>

>> http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/about/contact_us/sos_campaigns/

>> ed_resp_stopsm/ed_resp_stopsm.aspx

>>

>> I note that when looked at more closely most households would not benefit :

>>

>> http://www.euractiv.com/specialreport-access-energy/consumers-weak-sm

>> art-meter-roll-news-513445

>>

>> It states :

>> ....However, the consulting firm Frontier Economics has developed a

>> model based on 200 different types of households in order to assess

>> for which consumers smart meters would be financially beneficial. In

>> one case, just 15% of surveyed households in Germany benefited from

>> the country�s compulsory roll-out of smart meters. .... ULB

>> researchers analysed six energy industry studies on the use of smart

>> meters showing savings of between 2-4% in the best cases where

>> consumers opted for their use. The six studies were undertaken by EDF

>> (France), E.ON (Germany), Scottish Power, SSE (Scottish and Southern

>> Energy), CER (Commission for Energy Regulation in

>> Ireland) and Intelliekon (Germany).

>>

>> I can't figure out what I would do differently to save electricity -

>> I don't have a washing machine to run in the middle of the night

>> (disturbing neighbours and myself / kids etc) and I'm certainly not

>> going to delay boiling water for a cup of tea until the wind is

>> blowing strongly. On a typical annual consumer electricity bill of

>> say � 500 a 3 % saving (estimated by ULB) would amount to � 15 a year

>> (note : for whatever percentage of the UK population who are in debt

>> a � 300 meter would cost around � 50 per year in interest repayments

>> on a typical bank overdraft - three times as much as the saving !).

>>

>> I did some calculations below to assess to what degree smart meters

>> would avoid the back-up gas burn (as per the Hughes discussion) and

>> worked out the comparative costs over the 2020s and beyond. I

>> concluded no benefit on anything like a 3 % electricity bill

>> reduction - due to the interest repayments on the 'investment'.

>>

>> So can I opt out of having a smart meter - especially if someone

>> shows that an alternative spend (eg on insulation and or CHP-DH)

>> would be a better investment ?

>>

>> Neil

>>

>> ------------------------------

>>

>> Presumably the main ? energy benefit of a smart Grid would be to

>> smooth Grid electricity demand so reducing warm and cold start ups

>> from the CCGT back-up fleet beyond 2020 (which in a recent Claverton

>> discussion was estimated to reduce theoretical maximum RES gas

>> displacement / savings by say 15-20 %� - fair? ). Would it be right

>> to say IF no back-up were needed then meters could not save any

>> energy/money ? I roughly estimated a back-up burn rising from about

>> 20+ TWh/y in 2020 to around 50 TWh/y in the 2025-2030 period in UK but then declining again post 2030 as more RES comes on stream.

>>

>> The actual electricity saving would be around 100 kWh per year per

>> domestic consumer assuming a 3 % saving on a 3,400 kWh average annual

>> household consumption - which would save 200 kWh of gas (assuming 50

>> % CCGT efficiency in back-up mode). If the electricity saving was 3 %

>> across all electricity consumers/sectors then the saving would be

>> about 11 TWh/y of electricity (3 % of 360 TWh/y annual UK consumption

>> to 2030) and so 22 TWh/y of gas avoided (to fuel the CCGTs) at most

>> in the late 2020s - that could be a massive 40 % of the back-up burn being avoided !

>>

>> Has anyone done / seen any figures as to how much gas a

>> meter-smoothed electricity demand could save per year in gas (imports) and per decade ?

>> Presumably the savings would increase as more RES is built between

>> introduction in 2020 and 2030, rather than being a flat (eg 11 TWh/y

>> / 3 %) figure.

>>

>> NGs estimated 2025 central gas price is 90+ pence per therm or � 31

>> million per TWh of gas energy in 2025 (34.12 million Therms = 1 TWh

>> of gas) rising from 80p/Therm in 2020 to 100 p/Them by 2030. So 50

>> TWh/y of 'back-up' gas would cost � 1.55 billion per year in the mid

>> 2020s rising to � 1.7 billion by 2030. However, this back-up fuel

>> burn / cost would decline post 2030 as or if more RES is connected up

>> and further reduces troughs etc and consequent fill-ins by gas / CCGT

>> (and much less still IF fuel cells become available). So how much gas

>> energy would smart meters save post 2030 - indeed, assuming the

>> proposed smart meters lifetime was about 30 years from

>> 2020 to 2050.

>>

>> A net 'smart-meter' saving of 3 % or 22 TWh/y of (gas) energy avoided

>> would save up to � 680 million a year in mid 2020s and may rise/peak

>> ? at � 750 million per year by 2030 on this reckoning. So, the saving

>> over the decade could be up to � 6.8 billion between 2020-2030

>> (assuming a total back-up burn of 220 TWh/y over the decade at a cost

>> of � 31 m/TWh). OR - if the gas burn avoided by meters rises from say

>> 11-22 TWh/y over the 2020s (as I

>> guestimated) as more RES is built then the gas back-up burn over the

>> decade would amount to 165 TWh (10 x 22+11/2) with a total cost

>> avoided of about �

>> 5.5 billion (assuming a weighted cost of � 33 m/TWh of gas over the decade).

>> Beyond 2030 the electricity / gas savings would be difficult to

>> assess but probably declining rapidly, dependent on RES roll-out

>> scenario / technology (eg fuel cells) and infrastructure deployed (eg

>> inter-connectors). So a � 9 billion ? meter UK roll-out spend by 2020

>> might save � 9 billion between

>> 2020 across their lifetime (ie to 2050 ish). In which case it would

>> be a very bad investment - due to the interest on 'investment'.

>>

>> I saw a figure of about � 9 billion for a UK Smart Meter roll-out -

>> has an 'equivalent spend' on insulation or CHP been assessed in terms

>> of comparative 'energy' benefits (smart meters decreed as 'energy

>> saving'� - and easier billing/user profiling/snooping) ?

>>

>> I think an additional � 9 billion spent on insulation and or CHP by

>> So I am not sure I want to spend �295 to be told why I am wrong!

>> But I am open to persuasion and sponsorship!

>> Cheers

>> David

>> David Hirst

>> !-!?!-Hirst Solutions Limited

>> Mobile:� +44 7831 405443

>>

>>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: energy-discussion-group@googlegroups.com

>> [mailto:energy-discussion-gr...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of

>> Herbert Eppel

>> Sent: 20 September 2012 20:36

>> To: Claverton Discussion

>> Subject: [Claverton] Fwd: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such

>> a Hard Sell? London 18th Oct 2012

>>

>> I note that Clavertonian David Hirst recommends this, so it must be

>> good :-)

>>

>> Herbert Eppel

>> www.HETranslation.co.uk

>>

>>

>> -------- Original Message --------

>> Subject: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a Hard Sell?

>> London 18th Oct 2012

>> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 04:53:22 -0500

>> From: thomas_b...@btconnect.com

>> Reply-To: thomas_b...@btconnect.com

>> To: Energy-l <ener...@lists.iisd.ca>

>>

>> Date and time: 18th October 2012 9.00am

>>

>> Location: Hogan Lovells Auditorium, Holborn Viaduct, London, EC1A 2FG

>>

>> visit: www.smartenergyjourney.co.uk

>>

>> Cost: �295+VAT � Please quote discount code sej10 (case sensitive)

>> when booking for a 10% discount

>>

>> Are we leaving the consumer behind on our journey towards the Smart

>> Energy Revolution?

>> Success will depend on active participation from the consumer - not

>> passive consent - and the technology will only deliver results if

>> consumers drive it. That must put the consumer, and their comfort,

>> control and - crucially � savings at the centre of the rollout.

>>

>> Following last February�s successful two day event, �Delivering the

>> New Energy Economy�, this seminar brings together all aspects of the

>> smart spectrum and addresses the key consumer and policy issues

>> affecting the smart energy transformation.

>>

>> Consumers always want something different and new � so why is Smart

�

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Claverton group.

For options visit http://groups.google.com/group/energy-discussion-group

For Claverton website visit http://www.claverton-energy.com/

�

�

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�

[Nick Balmer]

Hello Herbert,

Please do....

> Perhaps I should ask whether the EoN EnergyFit monitors are still useful for
> customers who decide switch to Ecotricity? :-)

Nick

[Steve Browning]

Hi all

 

The Energy Fit device is a rebadged Current Cost 128 monitor.  It has a wireless sender clamped around one pole of the incoming supply.  The display records instantaneous demand and some day/night energy data while the memory has a rolling 30 day database of 2 hour energy consumption.    Once or twice a month I pull the data out to a CSV file then copy to a structured workbook with one sheet per month.   

 

I think it reads positive whether you are Importing or Exporting (I dont export).

 

It is entirely independent of the Utility meter or supplier.

 

Best Regards

 

Steve

[dave andrews]

this would have been a much better device for the govt to force the utilities to install....much cheaper

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Claverton group.
For options visit http://groups.google.com/group/energy-discussion-group
For Claverton website visit http://www.claverton-energy.com/
 
 

--

[Colin Boughton-Smith]

All

 

To be frank UK smart metering to satisfy EU Smart Metering Directives are in somewhat of a shambles in both the I&C market and the domestic market. This is because DECC have appointed OFGEM to manage the processes and the whole scene is being dominated by Big Six and big meter manufacturer lobbying; there is little or no consumer voice.

 

I would suggest you are better off for the time being with your clip-on device rather than a Utility Supplier smart meter. These device might be inaccurate as most assume a constant voltage in the maths – current x volts - but what is important is the trends not ultimate accuracy.

 

I got into AMR because I realised when I was an Energy Consultant that the devil was in the detail. The old method of conducting an audit which culminated in a big fat paper report which nobody actioned anyway, was too expensive, whereas AMR gave the ability to conduct continuous and automatic auditing typically every 30 minutes.

 

Some old slides of mine!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having been AMRing since 1993 and indeed the instigator of the Carbon Trust trials, what I can say is that by applying aM&T (as it is now generally become known -ESTA Metering and Monitoring Subgroup and Carbon Trust - see latest update to ECA Criteria – Google aM&T )  many millions of pounds of money and carbon emission savings have been made in the Industrial and Commercial (I &C) market. Now dabbling with the domestic market and social housing in particular, I am convinced that in the right hands, significant savings can be made here by the application of aM&T/AMR.

 

However to you guys who receive/send Claverton emails etc, I hope you have nothing or little to save by the application of smart metering! You should have already implemented most of your savings measures! It is the general public who are not so well informed as you where the saving lie.

 

Regards

 

 

Colin Boughton-Smith
Director

T. +44 (0) 1628 664056  |  E.  Co...@meteringtech.com  |  W.  www.energymeteringtechnology.com

Energy Metering Technology Ltd | Lloyd House | 57 High Street | Burnham | Slough | SL1 7JX | Registered in England and Wales No. 2180497

                                                                                                                                      

                                  

P Before printing, please think about the environment

 

 

 

This electronic message contains information from Energy Metering Technology Ltd. which may be privileged or confidential.
The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient be
aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this
electronic message in error, please notify us by telephone or email (to the numbers or address above) immediately.

 

From: dave andrews [mailto:tynin...@gmail.com]
Sent: 29 October 2012 18:06
To: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com; Colin Boughton-Smith; mike everest
Subject: Re: [Claverton] Fwd: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a Hard Sell? London 18th Oct 2012

 

this would have been a much better device for the govt to force the utilities to install....much cheaper

[Stephen Browning]

Hi all

 

The EoN energy Fit does not of course do AMR.  I think there is still some clever stuff we can do in the I/C sector (especially sites with generation) , as over half the demand is in this sector's hhr metered premises.

 

The UK Smart project has a standard comms interface then the domestic customer can chose a HAN system to suit their needs.  That will go down to appliance level and there are people beavering away at IHDs to better present the information.

 

As I say in FPS 21, the main thing is to make advanced customer Electricity management automatic; this was also brought out by the UK Power exchange (APX) rep at a recent PRASEG seminar. 

After all, the customers in the 3 sectors are busy

making widgets (industrial)

selling stuff and making money (commercial)

and

getting on with life (domestic)

to spend their time running the Electricity system!!  We need some clever (partly AI) stuff to improve the way premises appliances operate.

 

Florida Power and Light identified 22 Demographic groups in their area and came up with 45 tariff structures!! 

 

Best Regards

Steve

www.eleceffic.com

Skype name    stephenbrowning

 

[dave andrews]

Yeah but....how much actual cash is all this load shifting going to save? End of the day, not a lot, most of the bil le is fuel......

[Stephen Browning]

Hi Dave

 

Indeed, the question is the value of equipping 26 million domestic properties with Smart??    Hence my ideas for working with the larger premises and simpler comms.

 

The future fossil plant running profiles with Big wind will be more variable from hour within day and from day to day than at present (FPS4/20). 

Getting the customer the respond that lot isn't as simple as working with a repetitive pattern.

 

Best Regards

Steve

Tel Home +44 (0) 118 954 0082

Mobile     +44 (0) 783 664 5454

[Stephen Browning]

http://www.euractiv.com/specialreport-access-energy/consumers-weak-smart-meter-roll-news-513445

 

 

Best Regards

Steve

[dave andrews]

Steven will you be able to ferret out some specific estimates of cost and actual energy reduction for existing houses? And or get some contacts that I can quiz? Many thanks.dave.

[dave andrews]

personally I think the whole idea of using smart meters to smooth / shift load significantly to deal with wind is a fantasy.

[dave andrews]

Steve, what i need is a single global figure for on average, for all uk 25 million houses, how much is worth spending per house, and how much in kWh does it cut the energy demand for heating? Someone must have a ballpark. From my research so far the best i can come up with is about 10k for halving the average heating fuel reduction.....

On 30 October 2012 09:50, Steve Browning <stephen....@ntlworld.com> wrote:

Hi Dave, its a big area so different developers concentrate of different propery types.  Have a  look at the Exhibitor list and their full details which might allow you to target the companies most relevant.

 

http://www.retro-expo.co.uk/events/exhibitor-list

 

Just off to get the train....

 

Steve

[Neil Crumpton]

Dave, 

I agree. In my previous posting I estimated a 3 % electricity (bill ?) saving (estimated by some utility studies for SMs) if applied at national scale would mean that the gas burn penalty in backing-up of 60 GW of wind would be reduced by a massive 40 % - see below.

Can't believe that - in a major wind-changing weather event, eg requiring say 8 GW of warm ramp-ups and cold CCGT starts per hour for two hours, what devices/uses would DOMESTIC consumers be load-shedding/shifting in their millions to significantly moderate the warm/cold starts at that scale ? 

I could see industry and commercial sector doing more with SMs.... NGs annual domestic electricity demand estimate fro 2020-2030 averages about 90 TWh/y compared to non-domestic demand at 200-220 TWh/y - ie over double the opportunity in the non-domestic sector - why not leave SMs in those sectors (which may have CHP systems, etc on site).

NG's central estimate for electricity saving by full SM roll-out is just 4.5 TWh/y in 2030 with peak demand shift of 6.7%. IF two third of that electricity saving is in the non-domestic sector then just 1.5 TWh/y would be from 25+ million domestic SMs ! or just 60 kWh per year per household - saving £ 10 per year....

If post 2030 electric vehicle charging and or heat pumps are being taken up large scale then perhaps roll something out mid to late 2020s when other new techs may obviate SM need.

Neil

If the electricity saving was 3 % across all electricity consumers/sectors then the saving would be about 11 TWh/y of electricity (3 % of 360 TWh/y annual UK consumption to 2030) and so 22 TWh/y of gas avoided (to fuel the CCGTs) at most in the late 2020s - that could be a massive 40 % of the back-up burn being avoided !  [ Fred and I had estimated in a previous posting a back-up burn penalty of 15-20 % so around 50 TWh/y of gas for 60 GW of wind ]

1.5 TWh/y / 25 million = 1.5 MWh/y / 25 = 1,500 kWh/y / 25

<image001.png>

 

 

 

<image002.png>

 

 

Having been AMRing since 1993 and indeed the instigator of the Carbon Trust trials, what I can say is that by applying aM&T (as it is now generally become known -ESTA Metering and Monitoring Subgroup and Carbon Trust - see latest update to ECA Criteria – Google aM&T )  many millions of pounds of money and carbon emission savings have been made in the Industrial and Commercial (I &C) market. Now dabbling with the domestic market and social housing in particular, I am convinced that in the right hands, significant savings can be made here by the application of aM&T/AMR.

 

However to you guys who receive/send Claverton emails etc, I hope you have nothing or little to save by the application of smart metering! You should have already implemented most of your savings measures! It is the general public who are not so well informed as you where the saving lie.

 

Regards

 

 

Colin Boughton-Smith
Director

T. +44 (0) 1628 664056  |  E.  Co...@meteringtech.com  |  W.  www.energymeteringtechnology.com

Energy Metering Technology Ltd | Lloyd House | 57 High Street | Burnham | Slough | SL1 7JX | Registered in England and Wales No. 2180497

<image003.gif>                                                                                                                                      

                                  

P Before printing, please think about the environment

 

  <image004.jpg>

[Neil Crumpton]

Dave,

Although the BEAMA 'Heating & Hot Water Pathways to 2020' report below covers active efficiency measures in buildings rather than passive insulation it has lots of useful UK building stock energy consumption data :

http://www.beama.org.uk/en/news/index.cfm/hhwt_pathways_2020_report

The report says that heating (space and water) comprise just over 80 % of domestic energy demand - and the figure on page 28 show that water heating comprises a considerable 31 % of 'heating'. So assuming no significant lifestyle changes (eg less washing !) most reductions in water heating demand would be from better boilers etc rather than lagged cylinders etc.

This puts more pressure on passive (insulation) measures to walls / roof / floor / windows to achieve whatever reductions (boilers will eventually get replaced anyway when time-served) 

So does your 'halving' refer to the total heating need or the space heating need ?

ie per 100 units of demand = 30 water heating + 70 space heating    

so 'halving' could be :  

50 units demand = 30 water heating + 20 space heating    OR   65 units demand = 30 water heating + 35 space heating 

There would presumably be a big cost difference (tending to exponential ?) in reducing space heating from 70 to 20 compared to 35....

Neil

[dave andrews]

My halving refers to total delivered energy, ie space heating plus water heating....Dave

[Herbert Eppel]

Sorry about the delay in providing feedback on this interesting event, which apparently was the best-attended EI East Midlands event for years. The speaker, Chris Utting from E.ON, was excellent, and he patiently and comprehensively responded to the numerous questions from the audience.

The project is still ongoing, and they haven't produced any (public) reports yet. Chris said he would consider making some of his presentation slides available. I'll forward these if/when they materialise.

Meanwhile, there is a pertinent recent press release at <http://pressreleases.eon-uk.com/blogs/eonukpressreleases/archive/2012/10/08/1870.aspx> and a related article at <http://www.homeheatingguide.co.uk/blog/e-on-to-make-homes-smarter-and-greener-with-new-partnership.html>.

I think the main general conclusion was that, in situations where consumers already use lights and other electrical appliances wisely, the electricity saving potential of this kind of technology is limited, but significant savings in gas consumption are to be expected from smart heating controls (e.g. smart control of individual radiators).

Some of the more detailed information Chris provided was also very interesting. For example, did you know that standby consumption of TVs is around 0.5 W these days (because apparently there is pertinent legislation in place), whereas the standby consumption of Sky and similar boxes (e.g. Virgin) is almost 20 W (because these devices are, unfortunately, not yet covered by legislation)?

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk



http://www.bristol.ac.uk/eng-systems-centre/idc/vacancies/edf-energy.html

On 29.10.2012 09:15 UK Time, Steve Browning wrote:

Hi Herb, it will be interesting to see what EoNs conclusions are and what their HEMS can do.� Are there any reports around�already?

�

I have a (free)�EoN EnergyFit house Electricity demand monitor just to my right, connected (originally after some pain with their firmware/software) to my PC.

I now have over 2 years of 2 hourly demands but that doesent in itself help much with understanding appliance demand use.� It does tell me that demand went up when Marian started working from home.

�

The UK Smart meter initiative is mainly concerned with monitoring (much emphasis on In Home Displays) and of course AMR which will save a fortune in meter readers, allow premises�faults to be detected more quickly and enable remote control to restrict supply for non-payment etc.� Note that the massive Italian Smart meter exercise (31million units) was justified on AMR and control of premises supply to combat fraud.

�

There were 100 Smart pilot projects in the States, bankrolled by @�3.7bn of (federal) American Recovery and Reinvestment money.� Some issues in rollout were experienced, especially when PG&E got slapped with a class action lawsuit when the bills went up in Bakersfield due to a coincident rate hike at the time the meters were being installed!� That prompted much action on Customer Engagement (and I wrote FPS 21).� I'm also involved in a GB project n Customer psychology.

�

What seems to come out of the US pilots, apart from�AMR, fault detection and supply control,�is that some preset Time of Use tariffs can improve main generation operation and customer costs, if applied carefully.�

�

My ideas on storage, smoothing and price influenced control of premises import/export (especially larger sites with CHP) go right back to 2004.

�

Regards

�

Steve

www.eleceffic.com (to get at the FPS docs).

�

On Monday, 29 October 2012 08:51:41 UTC, HerbEppel wrote:

As it happens, I'll be attending a pertinent in Leicester this evening � see details below.

Do you want to send me a list of questions to ask? :-)

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk

Smart home energy management system
Date: 29 October 2012
Time: 18.30 - 20.30
Venue: De Montfort University, Room 207, Hugh Aston Building, The Gateway, Leicester LE1 9BH

This talk provides a timely report from E.ON on their experiences with energy feedback and smart homes. The event will be interactive, providing an opportunity to see what E.ON has learnt and what their trial participants have learnt about energy use in their own home.

Chris Utting, New Technology Consultant,�E.ON Energy Infrastructure�and End, will use this talk to provide an insight into the energy consumption characteristics of 75 homes in Milton Keynes. The speaker will demonstrate how much an average user knows about energy in their home. This will include some energy myth busting about where our money/energy really goes. The event will also include an overview and interactive demonstration of a Smart Home Energy Management System, one that�s real and not as complex or high tech as we may normally associate with a Smart Home. There will be a demo and overview of what the system does.

The talk will set out the value of a Smart Home system to E.ON, what they have learnt about consumers� energy consumption, when people use devices and how much energy they use. Refreshments will be served prior to the presentation so please do let us know in advance if you can come along so we have an idea of numbers.

On 29.10.2012 08:26 UK Time, David Hirst wrote:

But Bill, people keep telling me that the UK is the most advanced in enabling competition, even the Japanese! We even have trade delegations singing the praises of competition to the third world.

Personally, I think competition has been a retrograde step, back to the lunacies of the early 1900s.

I wish politicians would get on with leading and managing the great institutions of the country, like the NHS, and the electricity system, and the railways, and not set out on grand ideological top down reorganisations, whose major impact is to destroy expertise and capability, and replace it with greed as a driver. It happened with rail, it has happened with electricity, and it is happening with the HNS.

At the moment the main competition seems to be between Osborne and Davey, between gas and wind, and between nuclear and the rest of us. I can see little of value emerging.

The centrally managed, centrally dictated, and vastly expensive dumb meter programme is mostly expensive because of the complexity of administering a sort of pretend competition, so that any potential benefits from supposed incentives to be efficient are vastly outweighed by the stifling effect of a large bureaucratic system that fails to enable to the real opportunities from effective influencing of demand.

The only sensible answer is a return to local monopoly retailing of energy with democratic accountability. Successful and effective well before I was born, and what happens in most of the USA.

Cheers

David

David Hirst

!-!?!-Hirst Solutions Limited

Mobile:� +44 7831 405443

�

-----Original Message-----

From: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com [mailto:energy-discussion-gr...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bordass
Sent: 29 October 2012 08:05
To: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Claverton] Fwd: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a Hard Sell? London 18th Oct 2012

�

Dear Nick

�

Sadly you are not the only person who can tell a similar story.

�

As I see it "Smartt Metering" (not very smart actually) is a demand-side technology that has been captured by the supply side.�

�

The fact that we have these idiotic arrangements and that the suppliers can charge their customers for operating them is scandalous.

�

The sooner energy suppliers go back to being local regulated monopolies (as they did in California, not that California is perfect), the better.� Then they have a chance of working properly with their customers to do technically sensible things, including demand-side, community and renewable systems where appropriate.� Owners, occupiers and markets may change, but the buildings, equipment and suppliers stay together.

�

Oh, dear

�

Bill

�

�

�

On 29 Oct 2012, at 07:40, Nick Balmer wrote:

�

> cannot access the data unless I go back to First Utility.� The Smart

> Gas meter could not be read, and has been replaced with a new Dumb

> Meter.

>

> Smart meters are intrinsically at odds with the basic interests of

> energy selling companies. They undoubtedly allow the customer to

> reduce energy use by making intelligent decisions.

>

> The very last thing energy sellers want is well informed customers, as

> they will start to reduce usage.

>

> Reduced usage means reduced sales and profits.

>

> We need government to develop a common standard for smart meters so

> that all suppliers can read them, and customers as well.

>

> The specification for these meters should not be set by the energy

> selling companies who will deliberately sabotage and delay meters for

> as long as possible.� The specification should be set independently,

> and then the supplied to householders.

>

> Regards

>

> Nick Balmer

>

> On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Neil Crumpton

> <neil.c...@btconnect.com> wrote:

>> Is the proposed UK roll-out of smart meters mandatory - I thought

>> that it was ?� Ed Davey's comment below says 'no legal obligation' "

>>

>> We believe smart meters will bring important benefits to consumers

>> and to the nation. So I do hope that when your energy supplier offers

>> you the opportunity to have a smart meter you will decide that you

>> want to take up the offer. However, there will not be a legal

>> obligation on individuals to have one.

>> Edward Davey

>>

>> http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/about/contact_us/sos_campaigns/

>> ed_resp_stopsm/ed_resp_stopsm.aspx

>>

>> I note that when looked at more closely most households would not benefit :

>>

>> http://www.euractiv.com/specialreport-access-energy/consumers-weak-sm

>> art-meter-roll-news-513445

>>

>> It states :

>> ....However, the consulting firm Frontier Economics has developed a

>> model based on 200 different types of households in order to assess

>> for which consumers smart meters would be financially beneficial. In

>> one case, just 15% of surveyed households in Germany benefited from

>> the country�s compulsory roll-out of smart meters. .... ULB

>> researchers analysed six energy industry studies on the use of smart

>> meters showing savings of between 2-4% in the best cases where

>> consumers opted for their use. The six studies were undertaken by EDF

>> (France), E.ON (Germany), Scottish Power, SSE (Scottish and Southern

>> Energy), CER (Commission for Energy Regulation in

>> Ireland) and Intelliekon (Germany).

>>

>> I can't figure out what I would do differently to save electricity -

>> I don't have a washing machine to run in the middle of the night

>> (disturbing neighbours and myself / kids etc) and I'm certainly not

>> going to delay boiling water for a cup of tea until the wind is

>> blowing strongly. On a typical annual consumer electricity bill of

>> say � 500 a 3 % saving (estimated by ULB) would amount to � 15 a year

>> (note : for whatever percentage of the UK population who are in debt

>> a � 300 meter would cost around � 50 per year in interest repayments

>> on a typical bank overdraft - three times as much as the saving !).

>>

>> I did some calculations below to assess to what degree smart meters

>> would avoid the back-up gas burn (as per the Hughes discussion) and

>> worked out the comparative costs over the 2020s and beyond. I

>> concluded no benefit on anything like a 3 % electricity bill

>> reduction - due to the interest repayments on the 'investment'.

>>

>> So can I opt out of having a smart meter - especially if someone

>> shows that an alternative spend (eg on insulation and or CHP-DH)

>> would be a better investment ?

>>

>> Neil

>>

>> ------------------------------

>>

>> Presumably the main ? energy benefit of a smart Grid would be to

>> smooth Grid electricity demand so reducing warm and cold start ups

>> from the CCGT back-up fleet beyond 2020 (which in a recent Claverton

>> discussion was estimated to reduce theoretical maximum RES gas

>> displacement / savings by say 15-20 %� - fair? ). Would it be right

>> to say IF no back-up were needed then meters could not save any

>> energy/money ? I roughly estimated a back-up burn rising from about

>> 20+ TWh/y in 2020 to around 50 TWh/y in the 2025-2030 period in UK but then declining again post 2030 as more RES comes on stream.

>>

>> The actual electricity saving would be around 100 kWh per year per

>> domestic consumer assuming a 3 % saving on a 3,400 kWh average annual

>> household consumption - which would save 200 kWh of gas (assuming 50

>> % CCGT efficiency in back-up mode). If the electricity saving was 3 %

>> across all electricity consumers/sectors then the saving would be

>> about 11 TWh/y of electricity (3 % of 360 TWh/y annual UK consumption

>> to 2030) and so 22 TWh/y of gas avoided (to fuel the CCGTs) at most

>> in the late 2020s - that could be a massive 40 % of the back-up burn being avoided !

>>

>> Has anyone done / seen any figures as to how much gas a

>> meter-smoothed electricity demand could save per year in gas (imports) and per decade ?

>> Presumably the savings would increase as more RES is built between

>> introduction in 2020 and 2030, rather than being a flat (eg 11 TWh/y

>> / 3 %) figure.

>>

>> NGs estimated 2025 central gas price is 90+ pence per therm or � 31

>> million per TWh of gas energy in 2025 (34.12 million Therms = 1 TWh

>> of gas) rising from 80p/Therm in 2020 to 100 p/Them by 2030. So 50

>> TWh/y of 'back-up' gas would cost � 1.55 billion per year in the mid

>> 2020s rising to � 1.7 billion by 2030. However, this back-up fuel

>> burn / cost would decline post 2030 as or if more RES is connected up

>> and further reduces troughs etc and consequent fill-ins by gas / CCGT

>> (and much less still IF fuel cells become available). So how much gas

>> energy would smart meters save post 2030 - indeed, assuming the

>> proposed smart meters lifetime was about 30 years from

>> 2020 to 2050.

>>

>> A net 'smart-meter' saving of 3 % or 22 TWh/y of (gas) energy avoided

>> would save up to � 680 million a year in mid 2020s and may rise/peak

>> ? at � 750 million per year by 2030 on this reckoning. So, the saving

>> over the decade could be up to � 6.8 billion between 2020-2030

>> (assuming a total back-up burn of 220 TWh/y over the decade at a cost

>> of � 31 m/TWh). OR - if the gas burn avoided by meters rises from say

>> 11-22 TWh/y over the 2020s (as I

>> guestimated) as more RES is built then the gas back-up burn over the

>> decade would amount to 165 TWh (10 x 22+11/2) with a total cost

>> avoided of about �

>> 5.5 billion (assuming a weighted cost of � 33 m/TWh of gas over the decade).

>> Beyond 2030 the electricity / gas savings would be difficult to

>> assess but probably declining rapidly, dependent on RES roll-out

>> scenario / technology (eg fuel cells) and infrastructure deployed (eg

>> inter-connectors). So a � 9 billion ? meter UK roll-out spend by 2020

>> might save � 9 billion between

>> 2020 across their lifetime (ie to 2050 ish). In which case it would

>> be a very bad investment - due to the interest on 'investment'.

>>

>> I saw a figure of about � 9 billion for a UK Smart Meter roll-out -

>> has an 'equivalent spend' on insulation or CHP been assessed in terms

>> of comparative 'energy' benefits (smart meters decreed as 'energy

>> saving'� - and easier billing/user profiling/snooping) ?

>>

>> I think an additional � 9 billion spent on insulation and or CHP by

>> So I am not sure I want to spend �295 to be told why I am wrong!

>> But I am open to persuasion and sponsorship!

>> Cheers

>> David

>> David Hirst

>> !-!?!-Hirst Solutions Limited

>> Mobile:� +44 7831 405443

>>

>>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: energy-discussion-group@googlegroups.com

>> [mailto:energy-discussion-gr...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of

>> Herbert Eppel

>> Sent: 20 September 2012 20:36

>> To: Claverton Discussion

>> Subject: [Claverton] Fwd: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such

>> a Hard Sell? London 18th Oct 2012

>>

>> I note that Clavertonian David Hirst recommends this, so it must be

>> good :-)

>>

>> Herbert Eppel

>> www.HETranslation.co.uk

>>

>>

>> -------- Original Message --------

>> Subject: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a Hard Sell?

>> London 18th Oct 2012

>> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 04:53:22 -0500

>> From: thomas_b...@btconnect.com

>> Reply-To: thomas_b...@btconnect.com

>> To: Energy-l <ener...@lists.iisd.ca>

>>

>> Date and time: 18th October 2012 9.00am

>>

>> Location: Hogan Lovells Auditorium, Holborn Viaduct, London, EC1A 2FG

>>

>> visit: www.smartenergyjourney.co.uk

>>

>> Cost: �295+VAT � Please quote discount code sej10 (case sensitive)

>> when booking for a 10% discount

>>

>> Are we leaving the consumer behind on our journey towards the Smart

>> Energy Revolution?

>> Success will depend on active participation from the consumer - not

>> passive consent - and the technology will only deliver results if

>> consumers drive it. That must put the consumer, and their comfort,

>> control and - crucially � savings at the centre of the rollout.

>>

>> Following last February�s successful two day event, �Delivering the

>> New Energy Economy�, this seminar brings together all aspects of the

>> smart spectrum and addresses the key consumer and policy issues

>> affecting the smart energy transformation.

>>

>> Consumers always want something different and new � so why is Smart

�

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�
�

[Herbert Eppel]

I forgot to mention that the link to the Bristol University page at the bottom of my message was supposed to illustrate example of ongoing research in this area.

See also BBC article at <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20173641>

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk

[Frank Holland]

On Thu, 2012-11-08 at 12:23 +0000, Herbert Eppel wrote:
> I think the main general conclusion was that, in situations where
> consumers already use lights and other electrical appliances wisely,
> the electricity saving potential of this kind of technology is
> limited,

exactly! CFL, timers etc

> but significant savings in gas consumption are to be expected from
> smart heating controls (e.g. smart control of individual radiators).

How about simple thermostatic valves? £5.69 from Scewfix.

Frank

[dave andrews]

But the cost cutting ( sack meter readers, easy cut off consumers) potentials  are massive. So we pay for bigger profits  and less money into the real economy

Frank

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Dave Andrews

http://www.claverton-energy.com/

Dave Andrews https://twitter.com/home

[Herbert Eppel]

On 08.11.2012 13:12 UK Time, Frank Holland wrote:

>> but significant savings in gas consumption are to be expected from
>> smart heating controls (e.g. smart control of individual radiators).
>
> How about simple thermostatic valves? �5.69 from Scewfix.

Yes, simple, but not smart enough.

As I indicated, the future is smart control (i.e. timer-based or remote,
e.g. via smartphone) of individual radiators.

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk

[Herbert Eppel]

See also "Generating ideas for smart-meter engagement" at <http://www.cse.org.uk/news/view/1692>.

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk

[Frank Holland]

Herbert,

When I installed the central heating in this house, over 40 years ago, I
installed a simple programmer (since replaced because it was
electromechanical), this allows the the heating to be switched on and
off over various times. Then there is a house thermostat, then each
radiator has it's own thermostat.

What else is needed? Why so called smart control?

I am not a dinosaur, I just do not see the need for more technology.

Frank

[Herbert Eppel]

But why oppose this kind of smart technology when it offers potentially
quite significant energy savings?

I for one would certainly control my heating system differently if I had
the technology available.

For example, I could imagine heating my office to 18�C and the rest of
the house only to 14�C during the day (as long as the cats and the dog
don't complain :-) ). Faffing around with conventional thermostatic
radiator valves is too tedious for achieving this.

Herbert

[Bill Bordass]

Dear Herbert

What we have found in the past mostly in non-domestic buildings which are supposed to get more management - is that the technology runs far ahead of its usability, and that the cost of supporting and maintaining the technology is not affordable, leaving the cure worse than the disease. See for example the attached paper from work we did nearly 20 years ago.

Today, sadly, not much has changed. Indeed, domestic buildings have been catching the nondomestic disease as allegedly smart systems fail to operate as intended.

We need much more attention to detail on what really works in practice.

With good wishes

Bill

[Kevin]

Dear Bill

Your attached paper is excellent!!

Thanks!

Kevin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bordass" <bilbo...@aol.com>
To: <energy-disc...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Claverton] Feedback on E.ON Smart Homes presentation - was: UK
Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a Hard Sell? London 18th Oct 2012

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Colin Boughton-Smith]

I refer to the E mail below:

You guys simply do not get it!

As I said the other day I would be appalled if any Claverton does not have energy efficiency under control in your own dwellings! It's those that are not as informed as you where energy is being wasted. My company EMT has been monitoring (every 15/30 minutes) I&C premises for years (since 1993) and you would be amazed at the wastage identified when one closely monitors consumption. We have been monitoring some domestics now for the last four years and the similar type of savings are being identified - typically things being left on unnecessarily. In many social housing dwellings the British thermostat (also called a Window) is being used.

The main issue and barrier to eke out these savings for UKPLC is that DECC and OFGEM are unwittingly (I hope!) putting barriers for entrepreneurial, innovative and competitive monitoring services to be offered to consumers by limiting fiscal meter data access for monitoring to the Big Six.

Regards

Colin Boughton-Smith
Director
T. +44 (0) 1628 664056  |  E.  Co...@meteringtech.com  |  W.  www.energymeteringtechnology.com
Energy Metering Technology Ltd | Lloyd House | 57 High Street | Burnham | Slough | SL1 7JX | Registered in England and Wales No. 2180497
                                                                                                                                      
                                  

 Before printing, please think about the environment

 

This electronic message contains information from Energy Metering Technology Ltd. which may be privileged or confidential.
The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient be
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electronic message in error, please notify us by telephone or email (to the numbers or address above) immediately.

-----Original Message-----
From: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com [mailto:energy-disc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Holland
Sent: 08 November 2012 13:33
To: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com

[Herbert Eppel]

Dear Bill

Thank you for your reply and the paper.

I dare say what is required is a fine balance between building
(services) design, user expectations and behaviour, and advanced technology.

Regards

Herbert

[Frank Holland]

On Thu, 2012-11-08 at 14:27 +0000, Colin Boughton-Smith wrote:
> The main issue and barrier to eke out these savings for UKPLC is that
> DECC and OFGEM are unwittingly (I hope!) putting barriers for
> entrepreneurial, innovative and competitive monitoring services to be
> offered to consumers by limiting fiscal meter data access for
> monitoring to the Big Six.

You have a very good point there, Colin, I for one do not want my
domestic household being controlled for profit by some power
company...who will probably be foreign anyway!

Frank

[Frank Holland]

Herbert,

We are going to have to disagree on this one...it would take about 2
minutes to reset the radiator thermostats!

Frank

[dave andrews]

Colin - suggest re send your letter on the meter scandal again.  Dave

Frank

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[Stephen Browning]

Hi Bill - Quite a long history of complex BEMS systems not being managed
properly.
We have lots of flash technology, but need to use it properly and/or make it
'clever'......

As I say in my Smart Customer paper, things need to be automatic; we've got
better things to do than run our services.......

As regards rad control, there are now wireless heads to fit on existing TRV
bodies with associated control software.
www.heat-save.com

I wonder how long before that goes into the 'gimmick' collection.....

Best Regards

Steve
Tel Home +44 (0) 118 954 0082
Mobile +44 (0) 783 664 5454
www.eleceffic.com
Skype name stephenbrowning

-----Original Message-----
From: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:energy-disc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bordass
Sent: 08 November 2012 13:59
To: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Claverton] Feedback on E.ON Smart Homes presentation - was: UK
Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a Hard Sell? London 18th Oct 2012

[dave andrews]

I once spent an entire night in a boiler house watching a chp unit to see why the heat exchangers kept failing and found it was because at midnight all circulation pumps were turned off for one hour, including the loop my chp unit was connected to.

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[Herbert Eppel]

Fair enough, but given a choice I would rather do it from my computer or
smartphone, especially if the system gave me the option to set actual
temperatures for individual rooms, rather than having to guess TRV settings.

Herbert

[Frank Holland]

And when the power goes down? Or more likely when your windows system
crashes?

Frank

[Herbert Eppel]

When the power goes down the pump stops working anyway.

As for Windows crashing, in my experience Windows 7 is rock-solid.

Herbert

[dave andrews]

See, with William Orchard chp unit at every substation, the power never goes down, and you dont need a pump in your house anyway.................:-)

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[Herbert Eppel]

Steve

Where is your Smart Customer paper? Did you post it here in the past?

Thanks for pointing out the HeatSave website. Fascinating. I wasn't
aware that this kind of technology is already available off-the-shelf.
Could be quite fun. Would be interesting to see what they charge for the
different kits (see �TBA info at <http://www.heat-save.com/products>). I
might send them an e-mail.

Perhaps a silly question: Can these gadgets be installed without
draining the system?

And how exactly does the temperature control work? The website refers to
"Patented 'Dual Sensor Technology' for accurate temperature control".

Herbert

[Colin Boughton-Smith]

All

Our Dave Andrews has just suggested I send out again the open letter I sent to Greg Barker, Minister of State for Energy the week before last. Please find attached.

Somebody said they didn't understand the issues so here is a brief summary:

There are three main issues:

Issue 1 - in the I&C (Industrial and Commercial) gas supply market, gas meters are being changed out totally unnecessary to change from one owner, National Grid Metering to ANother MAM (Meter Asset Manager) simply because of a loop hole left by OFGEM in gas meter competition arrangements. This will be costing the consumer but they do not know this because they do not get visibility of the costs because of Issue 2 below:

Issue 2 - through the OFGEM competitive gas meter provision arrangements, the cost of gas metering is bundled up in the unit cost of gas so the consumer has no visibility of how much he is paying for the gas meter and gas meter maintenance. What is the point of having competition in gas metering if the consumer never sees what he is paying for?

Issue 3 - When the unnecessary gas meter change out is made the consumer has to arrange a shutdown for his whole operation (typically a hospital, University etc.) and his AMR (sometimes an EMT DATA BIRD system) is disconnected to boot, losing valuable gas consumption data for consumer Utility management!

Regards

Colin Boughton-Smith
Director
T. +44 (0) 1628 664056  |  E.  Co...@meteringtech.com  |  W.  www.energymeteringtechnology.com
Energy Metering Technology Ltd | Lloyd House | 57 High Street | Burnham | Slough | SL1 7JX | Registered in England and Wales No. 2180497
                                                                                                                                      
                                  
 Before printing, please think about the environment

 

This electronic message contains information from Energy Metering Technology Ltd. which may be privileged or confidential.
The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient be
aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this
electronic message in error, please notify us by telephone or email (to the numbers or address above) immediately.


-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Boughton-Smith
Sent: 08 November 2012 14:27
To: 'energy-disc...@googlegroups.com'
Cc: Nigel Orchard; Robin Hale
Subject: RE: [Claverton] Feedback on E.ON Smart Homes presentation - was: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a Hard Sell? London 18th Oct 2012

I refer to the E mail below:

You guys simply do not get it!

As I said the other day I would be appalled if any Claverton does not have energy efficiency under control in your own dwellings! It's those that are not as informed as you where energy is being wasted. My company EMT has been monitoring (every 15/30 minutes) I&C premises for years (since 1993) and you would be amazed at the wastage identified when one closely monitors consumption. We have been monitoring some domestics now for the last four years and the similar type of savings are being identified - typically things being left on unnecessarily. In many social housing dwellings the British thermostat (also called a Window) is being used.

The main issue and barrier to eke out these savings for UKPLC is that DECC and OFGEM are unwittingly (I hope!) putting barriers for entrepreneurial, innovative and competitive monitoring services to be offered to consumers by limiting fiscal meter data access for monitoring to the Big Six.

Regards

Colin Boughton-Smith
Director
T. +44 (0) 1628 664056  |  E.  Co...@meteringtech.com  |  W.  www.energymeteringtechnology.com Energy Metering Technology Ltd | Lloyd House | 57 High Street | Burnham | Slough | SL1 7JX | Registered in England and Wales No. 2180497
                                                                                                                                      
                                  

P Before printing, please think about the environment

 

This electronic message contains information from Energy Metering Technology Ltd. which may be privileged or confidential.
The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by telephone or email (to the numbers or address above) immediately.

-----Original Message-----
From: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com [mailto:energy-disc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Holland

Sent: 08 November 2012 13:33
To: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com

[dave andrews]

and some of these gas meters can be quite expensive....£5000..................

[dave andrews]

Colin, 

I would respectfully suggest you re send the letter just using the 3 paragraphs below?  It would be easier for them to understand. Have you sent it to your MP - they are quite good at following this sort of thing up if you write to them.?

Dave

On 8 November 2012 16:52, Colin Boughton-Smith <Co...@meteringtech.com> wrote:

[dave andrews]

andy - could you put this on the site please?  Dave

On 8 November 2012 16:52, Colin Boughton-Smith <Co...@meteringtech.com> wrote:

[Frank Holland]

You are lucky with your windows 7.

I'll put the epee away now!

Frank

[David Hirst]

Herbert,
Yes, it is a nice technology, if it all works!
We currently use wax thermostatic radiator valves, and so the radiators have
valves that are designed to take thermostatic caps. I think we should be
able to change the caps without draining the system, but it depends upon the
fitting adopted. Valves in pipes can be changed by freezing either side of
where you make the break, but this is hard next to a radiator.
What concerns me would be the power source for the radiator valves. The
radio bit is manageable, but actually driving the valves would need non
trivial force, and so some motive power. How is this done? How long do the
batteries last. Can they use the heat energy from the water.
How far away can the dongle be from the radiator. If Zigbee (or even wi-fi)
reaching a whole house might be difficult.
I see you can download the software for free. Has anybody had a look? Does
it look usable and convenient, or do you need a hacking degree?

David
David Hirst
!-!?!-Hirst Solutions Limited

Mobile: +44 7831 405443

[Stephen Browning]

Colin,

 

You could also try Alan Whitehead MP, chairman of PRASEG they are pretty good at chasing Energy ministers. 

Rhys Williams, the  PRASEG co-ordinator is of course on this group.

 

Best Regards

Steve

Tel Home +44 (0) 118 954 0082

Mobile     +44 (0) 783 664 5454

www.eleceffic.com

Skype name    stephenbrowning

 

 

From: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com [mailto:energy-disc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of dave andrews
Sent: 08 November 2012 16:08
To: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Nigel Orchard; Robin Hale
Subject: Re: [Claverton] Feedback on E.ON Smart Homes presentation - was: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a Hard Sell? London 18th Oct 2012

 

Colin, 

 

I would respectfully suggest you re send the letter just using the 3 paragraphs below?  It would be easier for them to understand. Have you sent it to your MP - they are quite good at following this sort of thing up if you write to them.?

 

Dave

On 8 November 2012 16:52, Colin Boughton-Smith <Co...@meteringtech.com> wrote:

All

Our Dave Andrews has just suggested I send out again the open letter I sent to Greg Barker, Minister of State for Energy the week before last. Please find attached.

Somebody said they didn't understand the issues so here is a brief summary:

There are three main issues:

Issue 1 - in the I&C (Industrial and Commercial) gas supply market, gas meters are being changed out totally unnecessary to change from one owner, National Grid Metering to ANother MAM (Meter Asset Manager) simply because of a loop hole left by OFGEM in gas meter competition arrangements. This will be costing the consumer but they do not know this because they do not get visibility of the costs because of Issue 2 below:

Issue 2 - through the OFGEM competitive gas meter provision arrangements, the cost of gas metering is bundled up in the unit cost of gas so the consumer has no visibility of how much he is paying for the gas meter and gas meter maintenance. What is the point of having competition in gas metering if the consumer never sees what he is paying for?

Issue 3 - When the unnecessary gas meter change out is made the consumer has to arrange a shutdown for his whole operation (typically a hospital, University etc.) and his AMR (sometimes an EMT  DATA BIRD system) is disconnected to boot, losing valuable gas consumption data for consumer Utility management!


Regards

Colin Boughton-Smith
Director
T. +44 (0) 1628 664056  |  E.  Co...@meteringtech.com  |  W.  www.energymeteringtechnology.com
Energy Metering Technology Ltd | Lloyd House | 57 High Street | Burnham | Slough | SL1 7JX | Registered in England and Wales No. 2180497
                                                                                                                                      
                                  

[Stephen Browning]

Herbert and all

My Future Power Systems docs are all down the trail from www.eleceffic.com

FPS 21 is the 'Smart Customer'; head to the end first to see the salient
points.

Best Regards

Steve
Tel Home +44 (0) 118 954 0082
Mobile +44 (0) 783 664 5454
www.eleceffic.com
Skype name stephenbrowning



-----Original Message-----
From: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com

[mailto:energy-disc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Herbert Eppel
Sent: 08 November 2012 15:43

[Stephen Browning]

Hi All

You can indeed change thermo valve heads without having to open the pipe
connections; they just hand screw down onto the valve body.

The Heatsave leaflet I have quotes a number of manufacturers whose TRV
bodies are compatable with their head (common thread pitch and diameter).
Includes the manufacturer of my valves which I've had for 16 years (some
cheaper varieties can 'stick shut' in Summer after a much shorter time in
use).

One issue with thermo valves is 'position' as they are right next to the hot
radiator.
The temperature they sense for the room is dependent on how they are aligned
(vertical if on the flow side, horizontal if on the return) and where the
rad is situated in the room. You can of course compensate for that
manually. Some designs also had a remote thermocouple with a thin
connecting tube so that they could be positioned away from the rad. Not too
elegant I'm afraid.

[dave andrews]

andy  / Steve '--can we organise a link swa please???

[dave andrews]

and anyway you would drain down to fiddle  wilth rads ' use pipe freezing....

[Herbert Eppel]

David

Thanks for your helpful feedback, encouraged by which I intended to try
the software, but I don't seem to be able to download it.

When I click on either of the download links at
<http://www.heat-save.com/download> the URL changes to
<http://www.heat-save.com/download#> but nothing happens.

Also, I note that they advertise remote control at
<http://www.heatingsave.co.uk/home>, but the "Find out More" link leads
to an unrelated page.

Looks like they need to do a bit more work on their website. Hopefully
their actual products are more reliable!

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk

[Herbert Eppel]

Steve

Thanks for your helpful feedback.

The HeatSave leaflet you mentioned doesn't appear to be available for
download from their website. Pity.

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk

[Herbert Eppel]

Got it, thank you.

Very interesting, and plenty of food for thought, methinks.

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk

[David Hirst]

Herbert,
It happens to me too.
The parent company seems to be http://www.tensor.co.uk/, which looks real,
and there is at least a theoretical synergy with the heatsave product. But
it is outside their normal expertise, and they may have not thought through
all that it means.
Otherwise I would be suspicious of a scam.

[Herbert Eppel]

David

Thanks for your further reply.

I don't think it is a scam. They explain the background at
<http://www.heatingsave.co.uk/home/about-us>. I think they just need to
do a bit more work on their website. I'm minded to send them an e-mail
(could be quite long :-) )

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk

[David Hirst]

I agree, but it all makes them look pretty thoroughly unprofessional. It is
potentially a big market, and they have not thought through how to tackle
it.
The ISO9000 quality assured claim is utterly worthless, at least to
customers. What does MCS mean?

[Steve Browning]

Hi All

 

So, Heat save seem to have two websites   

www.heat-save.com   and www.heatingsave.com   with different products listed.

I take David's point re Tensor and the fact that they are branching into a new field.

 

One thing you can't see on the web sites is the list of which manufacturers' TRVs are compatable with their wireless heads (£65 for one). 

The info is publicly available on the leaflet I got from them at Retro-Expo last week so I'll repeat it here. 

However, Herbert if that is contravening Claverton site policy please feel free to delete the post.

It is also probably best to check if a specific valve model is compatable (esp older types) by phoning them.

 

The manufaturers quoted are:-

Barlo, Braukmann, Drayton (mine are TRV4's which are still in production), Honeywell, Landis and Gyr DuoGyr, Myson, Pegler, Regis (B&Q), Siemens (and many others). 

 

Regards

 

Steve

 

 

As regards the wireless Thermo valves

[Steve Browning]

As regards sector energy use, it might be worth having a look at the energy flow charts. 

 

http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/publications/flow/flow.aspx

 

The I&C sectors do show a big reduction over the last few years.  I'm sure that is not all attributable to the economic downturn....

 

Regards

 

Steve

On Thursday, 8 November 2012 14:27:11 UTC, Colin Boughton-Smith wrote:

I refer to the E mail below:  

You guys simply do not get it!

As I said the other day I would be appalled if any Claverton does not have energy efficiency under control in your own dwellings! It's those that are not as informed as you where energy is being wasted. My company EMT has been monitoring (every 15/30 minutes) I&C premises for years (since 1993) and you would be amazed at the wastage identified when one closely monitors consumption. We have been monitoring some domestics now for the last four years and the similar type of savings are being identified - typically things being left on unnecessarily. In many social housing dwellings the British thermostat (also called a Window) is being used.

The main issue and barrier to eke out these savings for UKPLC is that DECC and OFGEM are unwittingly (I hope!) putting barriers for entrepreneurial, innovative and competitive monitoring services to be offered to consumers by limiting fiscal meter data access for monitoring to the Big Six.

Regards

Colin Boughton-Smith
Director
T. +44 (0) 1628 664056  |  E.  Co...@meteringtech.com  |  W.  www.energymeteringtechnology.com
Energy Metering Technology Ltd | Lloyd House | 57 High Street | Burnham | Slough | SL1 7JX | Registered in England and Wales No. 2180497
                                                                                                                                      
                                  

 Before printing, please think about the environment

 

This electronic message contains information from Energy Metering Technology Ltd. which may be privileged or confidential.
The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient be
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-----Original Message-----
From: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com [mailto:energy-discussion-gr...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Holland
Sent: 08 November 2012 13:33
To: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Claverton] Feedback on E.ON Smart Homes presentation - was: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a Hard Sell? London 18th Oct 2012

[Herbert Eppel]

Hi Steve

Thanks for the info.

I think it is safe to say the their web presence is in a bit of a mess.

I intend to send them an e-mail. I'll report back if/when I get a reply.

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk

On 10.11.2012 10:04 UK Time, Steve Browning wrote:
> Hi All
> So, Heat save seem to have two websites

> www.heat-save.com <http://www.heat-save.com> and www.heatingsave.com
> <http://www.heatingsave.com> with different products listed.

> www.HETranslation.co.uk <http://www.HETranslation.co.uk>

> > www.HETranslation.co.uk <http://www.HETranslation.co.uk>

> >>> www.heat-save.com <http://www.heat-save.com>

> >>>
> >>> I wonder how long before that goes into the 'gimmick'
> collection.....
> >>>
> >>> Best Regards
> >>>
> >>> Steve
> >>> Tel Home +44 (0) 118 954 0082
> >>> Mobile +44 (0) 783 664 5454

> >>> www.eleceffic.com <http://www.eleceffic.com>

> >>>>>> www.HETranslation.co.uk <http://www.HETranslation.co.uk>

[dave andrews]

The only thing you need to note from the flow charts is that the power station waste heat is greater than the gas energy going into buildings...Dave

[Steve Browning]

What is also missing is waste from the energy delivered,

 

The fossil fired transport waste is @75%. 

 

This shows up on the US analysis of Energy input and consumption by country; only 2007 I'm afraid but it did take Laurence Livermore Uni 4 years to put it together!!

 

https://energy.llnl.gov/informatics.php

 

https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/archive.html#international_archive

Head towards the bottom and the International Flow Charts 2007 pdf

 

Looking at the totals for US UK and China is quite interesting.....

 

Regards

 

Steve

[paul chandler]

MCS = Microgeneration Certification Scheme.  The competent persons scheme for renewables run by NICEIC, ECA etc.  i.e. they are approved solar hotwater installers
Paul

[James Birkin]

Hi David

this is probably a question with an obvious answer - but why cannot your
concept of highlighting system stress as a function of reduced frequency be
applied to billing? Ie electricity supplied at lower frequencies is more
expensive and that supplied at higher ones is less expensive?



Is it simply too data intensive?


Regards


James Birkin

-----Original Message-----
From: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:energy-disc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of David Hirst
Sent: 21 September 2012 10:04
To: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Claverton] Fwd: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a
Hard Sell? London 18th Oct 2012

Do I?
I did meet another David Hirst at the conference they organised that I went
to in February, and did enjoy the conference, and might even have said nice
things about it, but have not said anything about this one to my knowledge.
But we David Hirsts must show some solidarity, so I can probably support any
statements he made!
To my taste the last event was a bit too corporate and city and finance
oriented. But that, I fear, is the way the world is. And the money extracted
is put to good purposes.
Smart is a hard sell mostly because it isn't Smart.
I do not really believe that corporate thinking is able to deliver what
electricity consumers want. Choice is valueless, and merely gives corporate
VILES opportunities to confuse us. What I want is a good solid sensible and
long term sustainable service, at a reasonable price, without the risk of
getting ripped off or unduly exploited. And I want the industry to
decarbonise, not just to offer me a fairly meaningless feel good low carbon
branded service. I do not want to have to wade through propaganda (on the
benefits of Smart Meters, for example) designed to serve others interests,
and do things that benefit them at my expense. What we are told should be
honest "public service" information, and not buried either in ideological
nonsense.
And decentralisation is unlikely to be worthwhile.
So I am not sure I want to spend £295 to be told why I am wrong!
But I am open to persuasion and sponsorship!
Cheers

David
David Hirst
!-!?!-Hirst Solutions Limited
Mobile:  +44 7831 405443


-----Original Message-----
From: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:energy-disc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Herbert Eppel
Sent: 20 September 2012 20:36
To: Claverton Discussion
Subject: [Claverton] Fwd: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a Hard
Sell? London 18th Oct 2012

I note that Clavertonian David Hirst recommends this, so it must be good :-)

Herbert Eppel
www.HETranslation.co.uk

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: UK Smart Energy Journey: Why is Smart such a Hard Sell? London 18th
Oct 2012

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 04:53:22 -0500
From: thomas_b...@btconnect.com
Reply-To: thomas_b...@btconnect.com
To: Energy-l <ener...@lists.iisd.ca>

Date and time: 18th October 2012 9.00am

Location: Hogan Lovells Auditorium, Holborn Viaduct, London, EC1A 2FG

visit: www.smartenergyjourney.co.uk

Cost: £295+VAT – Please quote discount code sej10 (case sensitive) when
booking for a 10% discount

Are we leaving the consumer behind on our journey towards the Smart Energy
Revolution?
Success will depend on active participation from the consumer - not passive
consent - and the technology will only deliver results if consumers drive
it. That must put the consumer, and their comfort, control and - crucially –
savings at the centre of the rollout.

Following last February’s successful two day event, “Delivering the New
Energy Economy”, this seminar brings together all aspects of the smart
spectrum and addresses the key consumer and policy issues affecting the
smart energy transformation.

Consumers always want something different and new – so why is Smart such a
hard sell?

Session 1: Beyond SMIP - Market Design to Deliver on the Low Carbon Promise

Panel Discussion: Market Infrastructure and the Evolving Energy Market

Session 2: Consumer Engagement - Does the Consumer Want What the Industry Is
Offering?

Session 3: Decentralisation - Innovation vs Operational Reality For more
information please

About the Energy and Utility Forum
This event is organised in conjunction with the Energy and Utility Forum.
The Energy and Utility Forum brings together policy makers and policy
shapers in the energy and utilities sectors through invitation-only events.
This enables senior industry figures to discuss issues of particular
importance with key politicians and civil servants on an informal and open
basis. Both sides of the debate and subsequent policy decisions are, as a
result, better informed. Forum discussions are not a form of lobbying (for
either side of the debate) and those attending events are sufficiently
diverse to ensure there can be no single or parochial point of view. For
more information www.energyandutilityforum.org.uk

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