Re: "source freedom" - market mechanisms

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

Hi Patrick, ( cc: very small lists )

thats it!

We are on a similar wave lenght...

You are based in the states ? Or on the european subcontinent ?

I notice you relate yourself to http://www.telekommunisten.net/venture-communism ?

If you pass nearby Berlin in August, we could meet at the ecotopia or in Leipzig.

http://ecotopia2010.org/

http://www.facebook.com/agnucius#!/group.php?gid=53071439438&ref=ts

Alex Rollin has been working on a cooperative model :

http://alexrollin.com/content/cooperative-ecology-project

http://p2pfoundation.net/Cooperative_Ecology_Project

While I am discussing with Gael and Jan on the design of a tool enabling resource allocation through accreditation - but we still need to find a way of programming it.

An approach very similar to an older and more advanced project, from which I feel inspired and hope to be able to integrate, developed and programmed by Robin Upton, through a F2F approach :

http://www.altruists.org/projects/ge/ff/

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:12 AM, Patrick Anderson <agnu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey Dante,

I really like the http://ShareWiki.org/en/Leipzig_project idea.

I've been working (on paper) on a larger-scale solution that meets the
minimum requirements needed to allow us to 'pay' ourselves by
utilizing our productive outputs - eventually eliminating some of the
reasons we currently use money.

Here are my rough thoughts so far:

----
'Regular' money will probably be needed, especially at the start.  But
as we become productive, we can 'pay' ourselves from the value we
create.  So instead of trying to earn $10 to buy a meal, we avoid
paying the $10 by using Nature and tools to create the meal.


We should charge a Price above Cost (Profit) against the uninvested,
but we must treat that extra income as that Payer's investment into
more Sources of the type needed to supply another instance of the
purchased Objective.  This will cause the newcomer to also gain a
foothold as we grow so he becomes an active part of the solution as a
property co-owner along with the rest of us.

----
* Ways to invest:
** Organize Customers to Pre-Pay for an Objective (say shelter), then
use those funds to buy the Sources (group housing).
** Organize Customers to Pre-Pay for an Objective (say Almonds), then
use those funds to buy the Sources (Northern Almond Trees).
** Attract skilled Artisans who will commit to supply the labor needed
to achive our goals.
** Attract regular Venture Capitalists if necessary.

----
* Ways to benefit:
** Customers with Source Ownership get paid by receiving a product "at
cost" as a side-effect of their ownership in the Sources of that
product.
** Workers receive Shelter, Food, Clothing, Sanitation as an
rudimentary "Standard of Living" (a Basic Outcome).
** VCs receive a % of the Profit charged against the uninvested.


----
* Space and Equipment rental: These supply a Basic Outcome for Work
Investors and also attract more Customers as we continue to overgrow
Capitalism.

** Private rooms that appears as a Hotel or Apartment to the uninvested.

** A group kitchen that appears as a Restaurant to the uninvested.

** Storage/Recycling/Free shop that appears as a Rental Agency and/or
Storage Unit to the uninvested.

** Tools to create and repair wood and metal: initally used to fix-up
our Leipzig and later used to attract more Customers (who need such
work done in their own homes).

** Machines to wash, repair and create clothing and shoes appears as a
Laundromat/Seamstress.

** Computers running Free Software for programming, gaming, internet,
etc. appears as a "Internet Cafe" and/or Video Arcade to the
uninvested.

** Video/Music equipment and dance floor appears as a 'Club' to the uninvested.

** A large shared space that appears as a Meeting Hall to the uninvested.

** Swimming pool, Sauna, weights, etc. appears as a 'GYM' to the uninvested.


----
* Permaculture: Start with gardening but concentrate on perinneals -
especially trees for protein and and oils (nuts, olives, avacados).
** The output helps compensate Pre-Paying Customers and Committed Workers.
** Any surplus can be sold to non-owning Customers at a Price above Cost
** When we run out of land owned by us, we can offer contracted
landscaping services (Permascaping) where the customer eventually pays
no money, but instead compensates by relinquishing a % of the output
of those plants and animals.

----
* Recurring Costs:
** Taxes might be avoided if we can qualify as a not-for-profit
enterprise.  Should we consider creating a religion as a supporting
role?  We could claim "Physical Salvation through Reverence for
Nature".

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 6:36 PM, Patrick Anderson <agnu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I notice you relate yourself
> to http://www.telekommunisten.net/venture-communism ?

Well, I've been communicating with Dmytri Kleiner for quite a few
years because of his clarity in writing about fundamental concepts in
economics.

But I do not fully subscribe to the "Venture Communism" plan because
it has the same flaw that almost all 'alternative' organizational
forms seem suffer: it assumes that ownership of the Means of
Production must be limited to those who have the skills need to
operate them (the Workers), whereas my approach is to insure the Means
of Production are held by those who need the outputs (the Consumers).

I like this interesting differentiation.

I remember reading some posts with similar ideas somewhere in my daily flow of emails.

Probably some posts you sent on some list.

> While I am discussing with Gael and Jan on the design of a tool enabling
> resource allocation through accreditation - but we still need to find a way
> of programming it.

Could you give me a concrete example of what you mean by "resource allocation"?

Yes.

I imagine an emergent resource allocation information system, which can be a combination of an emergent governance system with an emergent economic system,

through a granular approach.

It involves individual choices from participating peers , for transactions they request or support, based on information of the transactions they may have access to.

Information of former transactions ( accredited transactions / recognized donations or debt ) accessible either publicly, or through a system of private keys ( a f2f system, such as the one Robin Upton seems to be working on at the moment )

Hence every choice, from every participant, can be based on their personal choices,

and can in turn be recognized, either in the form of a donation, or in the form of debt.

In effect, the system / network of data bases is accessible by a program which enables the creation of "requests", of "support" ( donation ) , and of more complex combinations, such as "requests" related to "support" ( corresponds to a precondition, such as a need to enable support that can be enabled through a donation, or can correspond to an IOU / debt )

Intentional objects can be created ( such as projects / objectives , ... ),

legal status/frameworks can be used as objects in such system to enable certain kind of transfer of transactions ( such as using a specific not for profit legal status as to enable tax deduction from a monetary donation - which I could imagine be also invested in use value infrastructures ),

and requests can be made by any participant in the system according to their own needs ( which relates requests to their own profiles, as object ),

or according to the needs of projects.

Support can be given in response to requests, in the form of donations, or conditional support ( IOU , or a pre-conditional donation , including, for example, a pledged transaction - note : I still need to verify the idea related to pledges )

The network of data bases is supposed to increase access to an overview of interdependencies, and enable complex forms of ongoing transactions, or even enable to establish "donation derivatives" , etc

It is inherently very simple, but can, in the way I imagine it, enable greatly complex forms  of transactions, involving a combination of types of transactions.

I also imagine it to be potentially combined with clearing mechanisms, which can choose to route around conditional transactions, and favor certain types of transactions , such as donations.

I also imagine that by making certain intentional preferences visible, which could be added to the system, the emergent system of users can enable resources to be converged in an emergent way through an addition of individual choices,

towards potential "intentional markets", which could represent a sum of individual preferences according to a percentage of resources they vote to invest in certain types of projects or intentions.

The idea is to have a system which is granular, but enables metadata for all transactions.

I still imagine all kind of applications, but I hope that the current description gives some kind of idea of what I may mean by emergent forms of resource allocation ?

It could be used for emergent and transparent forms of self management, including in companies and government agencies,

also enabling such data bases to communicate with each other and "see" each other,

but this, I guess, depends if they ( various data bases of peer users , or of peers themselves in a f2f system ) want to make their economies and governance available to each other.

I am also inspired by Robin Upton,

and started brainstorming about such ideas some two years ago,

when attempting to understand how to reverse the consciousness of debt based units,

while making it possible for them to exist and work together with IOU's,

and enable a transfer of IOU's into recognition of donations :

http://cashwiki.org/en/Debt_to_Intention

Robin Upton's presentation :

http://www.altruists.org/f598
also see Robin Upton's f2f : http://www.altruists.org/projects/ge/ff/
and wiki :  http://wiki.friend2friend.net/wiki/Main_Page
and wikipedia general description of a f2f : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friend-to-friend

 

> If you pass nearby Berlin in August, we could meet at the ecotopia or in
> Leipzig.

I'd love to, but must spend most of my time earning Federal Reserve
Notes to pay-back bankers (who initially created the FRNs "out of thin
air") so I have a place to sleep.

Would you like to go bankrupt ? ( I understand it is easier to go personally bankrupt in the US ( and in the UK ? )  then on the european subcontinent )

Are there any mutual support groups in the US for people that want to go bankrupt / become insolvent ?

 

After you go bankrupt, I can ask some friend in Leipzig to host you :)

Or do you have a family to take care of which requires Federal Reserve Notes ?