Billion Dollar Question - why did Canberra fail?
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Frank de Jong
Feb 16, 2012, 8:43:11 AM2/16/12
to Earthsharing Canada Google Group
Hello Earthsharing folks, below is a long but interesting chatter by a group of HG luminaries. Frank
--
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Scott Baker <ssbak...@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:44 AM
Subject: Re: Billion Dollar Question - why did Canberra fail?
To: John Poulter <jj...@bigpond.com>, Bill Batt <albany...@gmail.com>, Leo Foley <fol...@gmail.com>
Cc: "gary...@uvm.edu" <gary...@uvm.edu>, "dsp...@spains.com.au" <dsp...@spains.com.au>, Bryan Kavanagh <br...@lvrg.org.au>, Alanna Hartzok <eart...@pa.net>, Ed Dodson <ejdo...@comcast.net>, Lindy Davies <li...@henrygeorge.org>, Deirdre Kent <deirdr...@gmail.com>, Bob Keall <resourc...@xtra.co.nz>, David Collyer <david....@prosper.org.au>, Bernie Hanvey <bha...@wave.co.nz>, John Booth <joh...@weeklytimes.com.au>, Paul Martin <dire...@ceihg.org>, Andrew Keall <ad.k...@clear.net.nz>, Bernie Ogilvy <b.og...@xtra.co.nz>, "Carol Wilcox, preferred" <carol....@labourland.org>, Dr Chris Harris <ce_h...@yahoo.com>, Claire Breen <cbr...@xtra.co.nz>, Bryan Pepperell <bryan.p...@gmail.com>, Ewing Caldwell <ewing.c...@gmail.com>, Eric Constantine <mat...@hyper.net.nz>, Dave Wetzel - TheIU <davewetz...@gmail.com>, Don Riley <ad...@menier.org.uk>, Fernando Scornik Gerstein <lon...@scornik-gerstein.co.uk>, Eric Britton <eric.b...@ecoplan.org>, Fr ank de Jong <fde...@earthsharing.ca>, Fred Harrison <fred.h...@talktalk.net>, Gavin Putland <put...@lvrg.org.au>, Jake Himmelstein <jhimm...@cavtel.net>, Godfrey Dunkley <godfrey...@gmail.com>, Dr Hector Sandler <hsan...@speedy.com.ar>, George L Collins <georg...@aol.com>, Gerald Tait <gera...@slingshot.co.nz>, Geoff Forster <geoff...@netspace.net.au>, Helen Drew <hel...@contact.net.nz>, John Massam <cons...@multiline.com.au>, Juston Fenton <juston...@hp.com>, "k...@earthsharing.org.au" <k...@earthsharing.org.au>, Kevin Shannon <kevinmcsh...@telkomsa.net>, Josh Vincent <jos...@urbantools.org>, Lars Rindsig <la...@larsrindsig.dk>, "ole.lefmann1" <ole.le...@virgin.net>, Maurie Fabrikant <fabm...@optusnet.com.au>, Lloyd Churches <prog...@prosper.org.au>, Mark Horsnell <m12...@xtra.co.nz>, mason gaffney <m.ga...@dslextreme.com>
From: Scott Baker <ssbak...@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:44 AM
Subject: Re: Billion Dollar Question - why did Canberra fail?
To: John Poulter <jj...@bigpond.com>, Bill Batt <albany...@gmail.com>, Leo Foley <fol...@gmail.com>
Cc: "gary...@uvm.edu" <gary...@uvm.edu>, "dsp...@spains.com.au" <dsp...@spains.com.au>, Bryan Kavanagh <br...@lvrg.org.au>, Alanna Hartzok <eart...@pa.net>, Ed Dodson <ejdo...@comcast.net>, Lindy Davies <li...@henrygeorge.org>, Deirdre Kent <deirdr...@gmail.com>, Bob Keall <resourc...@xtra.co.nz>, David Collyer <david....@prosper.org.au>, Bernie Hanvey <bha...@wave.co.nz>, John Booth <joh...@weeklytimes.com.au>, Paul Martin <dire...@ceihg.org>, Andrew Keall <ad.k...@clear.net.nz>, Bernie Ogilvy <b.og...@xtra.co.nz>, "Carol Wilcox, preferred" <carol....@labourland.org>, Dr Chris Harris <ce_h...@yahoo.com>, Claire Breen <cbr...@xtra.co.nz>, Bryan Pepperell <bryan.p...@gmail.com>, Ewing Caldwell <ewing.c...@gmail.com>, Eric Constantine <mat...@hyper.net.nz>, Dave Wetzel - TheIU <davewetz...@gmail.com>, Don Riley <ad...@menier.org.uk>, Fernando Scornik Gerstein <lon...@scornik-gerstein.co.uk>, Eric Britton <eric.b...@ecoplan.org>, Fr ank de Jong <fde...@earthsharing.ca>, Fred Harrison <fred.h...@talktalk.net>, Gavin Putland <put...@lvrg.org.au>, Jake Himmelstein <jhimm...@cavtel.net>, Godfrey Dunkley <godfrey...@gmail.com>, Dr Hector Sandler <hsan...@speedy.com.ar>, George L Collins <georg...@aol.com>, Gerald Tait <gera...@slingshot.co.nz>, Geoff Forster <geoff...@netspace.net.au>, Helen Drew <hel...@contact.net.nz>, John Massam <cons...@multiline.com.au>, Juston Fenton <juston...@hp.com>, "k...@earthsharing.org.au" <k...@earthsharing.org.au>, Kevin Shannon <kevinmcsh...@telkomsa.net>, Josh Vincent <jos...@urbantools.org>, Lars Rindsig <la...@larsrindsig.dk>, "ole.lefmann1" <ole.le...@virgin.net>, Maurie Fabrikant <fabm...@optusnet.com.au>, Lloyd Churches <prog...@prosper.org.au>, Mark Horsnell <m12...@xtra.co.nz>, mason gaffney <m.ga...@dslextreme.com>
Congratulations on having the Land Rent Scheme option, though it is a bit "impure" in that it caps LR based on income. I suppose this makes it palatable to the electorate, but it also has the effect of encouraging cash-poor but land rich landowners, and the 2% discount land rent is, in effect, a subsidy, jacking up land prices for everyone. Still, it is a good option.
As for banks that don't want to lend strictly on houses and not on land, remind them that that is exactly what they do when the make a car loan (or a boat/motorcycle/mobile home etc. loan). The car is a depreciating asset too, and no one is charging for the land under the tires (perhaps they should? At least let's have congestion pricing), yet somehow banks have figured out how to make a profit on this.
From: John Poulter <jj...@bigpond.com>
To: 'Bill Batt' <albany...@gmail.com>; 'Leo Foley' <fol...@gmail.com>
Cc: gary...@uvm.edu; 'Scott Baker' <ssbak...@yahoo.com>; dsp...@spains.com.au; 'Bryan Kavanagh' <br...@lvrg.org.au>; 'Alanna Hartzok' <eart...@pa.net>; 'Ed Dodson' <ejdo...@comcast.net>; 'Lindy Davies' <li...@henrygeorge.org>; 'Deirdre Kent' <deirdr...@gmail.com>; 'Bob Keall' <resourc...@xtra.co.nz>; 'David Collyer' <david....@prosper.org.au>; 'Bernie Hanvey' <bha...@wave.co.nz>; 'John Booth' <joh...@weeklytimes.com.au>; 'Paul Martin' <dire...@ceihg.org>; 'Andrew Keall' <ad.k...@clear.net.nz>; 'Bernie Ogilvy' <b.og...@xtra.co.nz>; "'Carol Wilcox, preferred'" <carol....@labourland.org>; 'Dr Chris Harris' <ce_h...@yahoo.com>; 'Claire Breen' <cbr...@xtra.co.nz>; 'Bryan Pepperell' <bryan.p...@gmail.com>; 'Ewing Caldwell' <ewing.c...@gmail.com>; 'Eric Constantine' <mat...@hyper.net.nz>; 'Dave Wetzel - TheIU' <davewetz...@gmail.com>; 'Don Riley' <ad...@menier.org.uk>; 'Fernando Scornik Gerstein' <lon...@scornik-gerstein.co.uk>; 'Eric Britton' <eric.b...@ecoplan.org>; 'Fr ank de Jong' <fde...@earthsharing.ca>; 'Fred Harrison' <fred.h...@talktalk.net>; 'Gavin Putland' <put...@lvrg.org.au>; 'Jake Himmelstein' <jhimm...@cavtel.net>; 'Godfrey Dunkley' <godfrey...@gmail.com>; 'Dr Hector Sandler' <hsan...@speedy.com.ar>; 'George L Collins' <georg...@aol.com>; 'Gerald Tait' <gera...@slingshot.co.nz>; 'Geoff Forster' <geoff...@netspace.net.au>; 'Helen Drew' <hel...@contact.net.nz>; 'John Massam' <cons...@multiline.com.au>; 'Juston Fenton' <juston...@hp.com>; k...@earthsharing.org.au; 'Kevin Shannon' <kevinmcsh...@telkomsa.net>; 'Josh Vincent' <jos...@urbantools.org>; 'Lars Rindsig' <la...@larsrindsig.dk>; 'ole.lefmann1' <ole.le...@virgin.net>; 'Maurie Fabrikant' <fabm...@optusnet.com.au>; 'Lloyd Churches' <prog...@prosper.org.au>; 'Mark Horsnell' <m12...@xtra.co.nz>; 'mason gaffney' <m.ga...@dslextreme.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:56 PM
Subject: RE: Billion Dollar Question - why did Canberra fail?
Great, so you've created a private land trust. So I don't understand your hostility to the idea of community land trusts.
Don Newey created a Georgist community near Santa Cruz. As soon as he lost control of the board they voted to reduce the land dues, and retain the rent. Houses went up to market rate, probably around $600-$700,000 currently near Santa Cruz, and only rich hippies can live there now.
You must have done something right to prevent that.
Congratulations.
Gary
>
> BTW, I forgot to say to Gary that our community constitution > requires proceeds on winding up to be
> donated to a similar enterprise -- in other words, shareholders > cannot force a sale of the lands
> to pocket dollar profit.
>
> Also, shares cannot be transferred (but rather only surrendered or > cancelled), so speculators are
> blocked there too.
>
> Shareholders are limited to selling their improvements at a value > independently assessed.
>
>
> DS
>
>> I agree with David Spain. CLTs are a dead end for Georgism. They're
>> 'successful' because, like Arden and Fairhaven they're NOT Georgist. BTW,
>> David's a lawyer, a former officer in the Vietnam war who founded
>> Australia's first commune, which hasn't been sold off for millions, and I
>> don't believe you're arguing for hippy communes instead of Georgism are you,
>> David?
>>
>> - BK
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> ole.lefmann1; Maurie Fabrikant; 'Leo Foley'; Lloyd Churches; Mark Horsnell;
>> mason gaffney
>> Subject: Re: the Billion Dollar Question - what is full land rent?
>>
>> Wow! That's an interesting perspective. While LVT reform has gone virtually
>> nowhere in the US, and site rating, and LVT has backslid elsewhere,
>> community land trusts have developed thousands of
>> properties, and taken land off the market to become affordable.
>> Legislation is not required. They can be done privately with little
>> government interference, just like conservation trusts (Nature Conservancy).
>>
>> Your freehold commune if successful, will have their land become extremely
>> valuable, and then will be gentrified and only rich hippies will be able to
>> afford it.
>>
>> Meanwhile our Champlain Housing Trust has removed hundreds of land sites
>> from the market IN PERPETUITY. 75% of the land gains (should be 100%, but
>> no one is perfect) is retained by the trust, NOT BY THE OWNER. This is the
>> essence of Georgism: Take the land rent away from the rentier. The trust
>> then recycles this accumulated land rent into a downpayment for the next
>> owner. What this means is that they buy down the price of the land using
>> accumulated land rent. It is as if the land value never went up since the
>> original purchase of the property, or close to it.
>>
>> For example, In my case the market value of the condo is $156,000, but my
>> mortgage is for $105,000, saving me around $300 per month. The trade off is
>> that I forgo future profit from this property. DS have you forgone future
>> profit from your property like all good Georgists should do?
>>
>> There are many valid strategies and we should welcome them all. A diverse
>> approach is more likely to succeed.
>>
>> GF
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Rindsig'; 'ole.lefmann1'; 'Maurie Fabrikant'; 'Leo Foley'; 'Lloyd
>> Churches'; 'Mark Horsnell'; 'mason gaffney'
>>>> Subject: Re: the Billion Dollar Question - what is full land rent?
>>>>
>>>> Some Community land trusts have land lease agreements. There should
>>>> be lots of legal language there.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
--
Leo Foley
31 Brushy Creek Rd
Lenah Valley, Tas 7008
ph 62 286486
0427 286486
As for banks that don't want to lend strictly on houses and not on land, remind them that that is exactly what they do when the make a car loan (or a boat/motorcycle/mobile home etc. loan). The car is a depreciating asset too, and no one is charging for the land under the tires (perhaps they should? At least let's have congestion pricing), yet somehow banks have figured out how to make a profit on this.
From: John Poulter <jj...@bigpond.com>
To: 'Bill Batt' <albany...@gmail.com>; 'Leo Foley' <fol...@gmail.com>
Cc: gary...@uvm.edu; 'Scott Baker' <ssbak...@yahoo.com>; dsp...@spains.com.au; 'Bryan Kavanagh' <br...@lvrg.org.au>; 'Alanna Hartzok' <eart...@pa.net>; 'Ed Dodson' <ejdo...@comcast.net>; 'Lindy Davies' <li...@henrygeorge.org>; 'Deirdre Kent' <deirdr...@gmail.com>; 'Bob Keall' <resourc...@xtra.co.nz>; 'David Collyer' <david....@prosper.org.au>; 'Bernie Hanvey' <bha...@wave.co.nz>; 'John Booth' <joh...@weeklytimes.com.au>; 'Paul Martin' <dire...@ceihg.org>; 'Andrew Keall' <ad.k...@clear.net.nz>; 'Bernie Ogilvy' <b.og...@xtra.co.nz>; "'Carol Wilcox, preferred'" <carol....@labourland.org>; 'Dr Chris Harris' <ce_h...@yahoo.com>; 'Claire Breen' <cbr...@xtra.co.nz>; 'Bryan Pepperell' <bryan.p...@gmail.com>; 'Ewing Caldwell' <ewing.c...@gmail.com>; 'Eric Constantine' <mat...@hyper.net.nz>; 'Dave Wetzel - TheIU' <davewetz...@gmail.com>; 'Don Riley' <ad...@menier.org.uk>; 'Fernando Scornik Gerstein' <lon...@scornik-gerstein.co.uk>; 'Eric Britton' <eric.b...@ecoplan.org>; 'Fr ank de Jong' <fde...@earthsharing.ca>; 'Fred Harrison' <fred.h...@talktalk.net>; 'Gavin Putland' <put...@lvrg.org.au>; 'Jake Himmelstein' <jhimm...@cavtel.net>; 'Godfrey Dunkley' <godfrey...@gmail.com>; 'Dr Hector Sandler' <hsan...@speedy.com.ar>; 'George L Collins' <georg...@aol.com>; 'Gerald Tait' <gera...@slingshot.co.nz>; 'Geoff Forster' <geoff...@netspace.net.au>; 'Helen Drew' <hel...@contact.net.nz>; 'John Massam' <cons...@multiline.com.au>; 'Juston Fenton' <juston...@hp.com>; k...@earthsharing.org.au; 'Kevin Shannon' <kevinmcsh...@telkomsa.net>; 'Josh Vincent' <jos...@urbantools.org>; 'Lars Rindsig' <la...@larsrindsig.dk>; 'ole.lefmann1' <ole.le...@virgin.net>; 'Maurie Fabrikant' <fabm...@optusnet.com.au>; 'Lloyd Churches' <prog...@prosper.org.au>; 'Mark Horsnell' <m12...@xtra.co.nz>; 'mason gaffney' <m.ga...@dslextreme.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:56 PM
Subject: RE: Billion Dollar Question - why did Canberra fail?
Hi, at present the ACT government has introduced a very novel new Land Rent Scheme.
Given the current very high price of both vacant and developed land in the capital the ACT government stepped in and introduced its Land Rent Scheme. With free land available people are now able rent a block and get on and build a house. In the early days (back 4 years) the banks and other lending institutions refused to support it, because land in the current non Georgian system is an appreciating asset while a house is a depreciating asset. As treasurer of the HGFA I negotiated with the Commonwealth Public Service Union the only supporter of the Land Rent Scheme for the Foundation to be an investor and provide money for mortgages. The Foundation’s investment is currently earning 6.1%
The scheme is becoming so popular that resource rich states are looking at introducing the same thing to help incoming workers around mining towns get a foot hold and settle down with their family.
The link below will give you all you need to know about our Capital Cities partial return to a land rent Scheme. The Banks have now come on board.
Regards John Poulter
From: Bill Batt [mailto:albany...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, 16 February 2012 1:55 PM
To: Leo Foley
Cc: gary...@uvm.edu; Scott Baker; dsp...@spains.com.au; Bryan Kavanagh; Alanna Hartzok; Ed Dodson; Lindy Davies; Deirdre Kent; Bob Keall; David Collyer; Bernie Hanvey; John Booth; Paul Martin; Andrew Keall; Bernie Ogilvy; Carol Wilcox, preferred; Dr Chris Harris; Claire Breen; Bryan Pepperell; Ewing Caldwell; Eric Constantine; Dave Wetzel - TheIU; Don Riley; Fernando Scornik Gerstein; Eric Britton; Fr ank de Jong; Fred Harrison; Gavin Putland; Jake Himmelstein; Godfrey Dunkley; Dr Hector Sandler; George L Collins; Gerald Tait; Geoff Forster; Helen Drew; John Poulter; John Massam; Juston Fenton; k...@earthsharing.org.au; Kevin Shannon; Josh Vincent; Lars Rindsig; ole.lefmann1; Maurie Fabrikant; Lloyd Churches; Mark Horsnell; mason gaffney
Subject: Re: Billion Dollar Question - why did Canberra fail?
Sent: Thursday, 16 February 2012 1:55 PM
To: Leo Foley
Cc: gary...@uvm.edu; Scott Baker; dsp...@spains.com.au; Bryan Kavanagh; Alanna Hartzok; Ed Dodson; Lindy Davies; Deirdre Kent; Bob Keall; David Collyer; Bernie Hanvey; John Booth; Paul Martin; Andrew Keall; Bernie Ogilvy; Carol Wilcox, preferred; Dr Chris Harris; Claire Breen; Bryan Pepperell; Ewing Caldwell; Eric Constantine; Dave Wetzel - TheIU; Don Riley; Fernando Scornik Gerstein; Eric Britton; Fr ank de Jong; Fred Harrison; Gavin Putland; Jake Himmelstein; Godfrey Dunkley; Dr Hector Sandler; George L Collins; Gerald Tait; Geoff Forster; Helen Drew; John Poulter; John Massam; Juston Fenton; k...@earthsharing.org.au; Kevin Shannon; Josh Vincent; Lars Rindsig; ole.lefmann1; Maurie Fabrikant; Lloyd Churches; Mark Horsnell; mason gaffney
Subject: Re: Billion Dollar Question - why did Canberra fail?
Leo, I for one would like very much to read the article about the Canberra experience, as I'm sure others would . Please send it along. Thanks. B.
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 9:44 PM, Leo Foley <fol...@gmail.com> wrote:
Interesting discusion, and shows why we should share our knowledge and experiences.
Canberra was established on a land rent (lease) basis, but those who were sent there didn't all 'share the vision'. Canberra was a compromise site for Australia's capital, sited half way between the competing big cities, Melbourne and Sydney. People sent there were mostly public servants who really would have preferred to stay in the 'big smoke'. They weren't keen on paying a land rent during their time in Canberra (so no capital gain on their house), and then having to buy back in to the Sydney property market after they had 'served their time'. Quite simply, it became unpopular because it didn't work for those who lived there. Theirs was a rational position, and shows the need to introduce Georgism on a national basis. Sorry, but that's the conclusion!
I'll attach an article on the Canberra experience, for those interested.
And a comment on Community Land Trusts. We don't have any operating in Australia, so many Georgists here are skeptical. I am a big fan, on the basis that small wins are required to convince people that there are bigger wins to be had. That is, set one up now, and look back in 10 years. But my discussions with local politicians have fallen on deaf ears, so its hardly worth getting excited about. They work well in the US, and (lesser) in UK. They could work in Australia, but they are just a step towards our goal. I will continue to promote them, but (again) I can understand why people want to change the rules once they are properly housed, and become social aspirants. Maslow told us all about our human 'heirarchy of needs'. That fits with George's comment that we seek to satisfy our needs with the least exertion. So, why should we be surprised when people get greedy. Its natural. We have to establish the rules so they can't be undermined.
Leo Foley
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 3:28 AM, Gary Flomenhoft <gary...@uvm.edu> wrote:
Scott has hit the crux of the matter. Even when lvt succeeds it is often reversed. One problem is the "dog in the manger", homeowners who benefit from retained land rent.
George explained it himself as the basic economic motivation: "People seek to fill their needs with the least possible effort". What could be less effort than no effort? We have to address this.
How to prevent backsliding?
1) A land trust: "IN PERPETUITY" seems to be one way.
2) LVT: seems subject to revocation.
3) Leasehold: Canberra Australia used to lease all their property, but I've heard they have reverted to freehold. Hong Kong?
4) Value capture at time of sale: ???
etc.
I think one answer is in the land rent dividend. We visited Alaska last year to do research for a book about the Alaska Permanent Fund. The officials involved told us unequivocally, that without the dividend there would be no fund. It would have been liquidated long ago by the legislature. They have tried several times, but it requires a referendum and it gets voted down.
Without a dividend from land rent, it's just another burdensome tax that goes to the corrupt gummint. Thomas Paine had it right in "Agrarian Justice".
Gary
Scott Baker wrote:
George explained it himself as the basic economic motivation: "People seek to fill their needs with the least possible effort". What could be less effort than no effort? We have to address this.
How to prevent backsliding?
1) A land trust: "IN PERPETUITY" seems to be one way.
2) LVT: seems subject to revocation.
3) Leasehold: Canberra Australia used to lease all their property, but I've heard they have reverted to freehold. Hong Kong?
4) Value capture at time of sale: ???
etc.
I think one answer is in the land rent dividend. We visited Alaska last year to do research for a book about the Alaska Permanent Fund. The officials involved told us unequivocally, that without the dividend there would be no fund. It would have been liquidated long ago by the legislature. They have tried several times, but it requires a referendum and it gets voted down.
Without a dividend from land rent, it's just another burdensome tax that goes to the corrupt gummint. Thomas Paine had it right in "Agrarian Justice".
Gary
Scott Baker wrote:
This sort of thing happens so often - it happened in NYC in the 1930s, it happened in Pittsburgh in the 1990s - that I'm beginning to consider it a weakness of Georgism itself. That is, when the Land Rent becomes so great, things get to a point where Landed interests want to take it back for themselves, and worse, they are aided by complicit politicians, perhaps on promises of future campaign support. Of course, we all know this exists in the present tense, but why is it that the people develop amnesia over how things used to be before Land Rent was collected for the common good? Is it because income and other taxes are not reduced at the same time - and then also re-raised when the Land Rent stops being a source of government revenues? Is it because "deficits don't matter"...until they do? Our victories are so hard-won and few. We should be loath to give them up!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Gary Flomenhoft <gary...@uvm.edu>
*To:* dsp...@spains.com.au
*Cc:* Bryan Kavanagh <br...@lvrg.org.au>; 'Alanna Hartzok' <eart...@pa.net>; 'Ed Dodson' <ejdo...@comcast.net>; 'Lindy Davies' <li...@henrygeorge.org>; 'Scott Baker' <ssbak...@yahoo.com>; 'Deirdre Kent' <deirdr...@gmail.com>; 'Bob Keall' <resourc...@xtra.co.nz>; 'David Collyer' <david....@prosper.org.au>; 'Bernie Hanvey' <bha...@wave.co.nz>; 'John Booth' <joh...@weeklytimes.com.au>; 'Paul Martin' <dire...@ceihg.org>; 'Bill Batt' <albany...@gmail.com>; 'Andrew Keall' <ad.k...@clear.net.nz>; 'Bernie Ogilvy' <b.og...@xtra.co.nz>; "'Carol Wilcox, preferred'" <carol....@labourland.org>; 'Dr Chris Harris' <ce_h...@yahoo.com>; 'Claire Breen' <cbr...@xtra.co.nz>; 'Bryan Pepperell' <bryan.p...@gmail.com>; 'Ewing Caldwell' <ewing.c...@gmail.com>; 'Eric Constantine' <mat...@hyper.net.nz>; 'Dave Wetzel - TheIU' <davewetz...@gmail.com>; 'Don Riley' <ad...@menier.org.uk>; 'Fernando Scornik Gerstein' <lon...@scornik-gerstein.co.uk>; 'Eric Britton' <eric.b...@ecoplan.org>; 'Fr ank de Jong' <fde...@earthsharing.ca>; 'Fred Harrison' <fred.h...@talktalk.net>; 'Gavin Putland' <put...@lvrg.org.au>; 'Jake Himmelstein' <jhimm...@cavtel.net>; 'Godfrey Dunkley' <godfrey...@gmail.com>; 'Dr Hector Sandler' <hsan...@speedy.com.ar>; 'George L Collins' <georg...@aol.com>; 'Gerald Tait' <gera...@slingshot.co.nz>; 'Geoff Forster' <geoff...@netspace.net.au>; 'Helen Drew' <hel...@contact.net.nz>; 'John Poulter' <jj...@bigpond.com>; 'John Massam' <cons...@multiline.com.au>; 'Juston Fenton' <juston...@hp.com>; k...@earthsharing.org.au; 'Kevin Shannon' <kevinmcsh...@telkomsa.net>; 'Josh Vincent' <jos...@urbantools.org>; 'Lars Rindsig' <la...@larsrindsig.dk>; 'ole.lefmann1' <ole.le...@virgin.net>; 'Maurie Fabrikant' <fabm...@optusnet.com.au>; 'Leo Foley' <fol...@gmail.com>; 'Lloyd Churches' <prog...@prosper.org.au>; 'Mark Horsnell' <m12...@xtra.co.nz>; 'mason gaffney' <m.ga...@dslextreme.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:14 AM
*Subject:* Re: the Billion Dollar Question - what is full land rent?
*From:* Gary Flomenhoft <gary...@uvm.edu>
*To:* dsp...@spains.com.au
*Cc:* Bryan Kavanagh <br...@lvrg.org.au>; 'Alanna Hartzok' <eart...@pa.net>; 'Ed Dodson' <ejdo...@comcast.net>; 'Lindy Davies' <li...@henrygeorge.org>; 'Scott Baker' <ssbak...@yahoo.com>; 'Deirdre Kent' <deirdr...@gmail.com>; 'Bob Keall' <resourc...@xtra.co.nz>; 'David Collyer' <david....@prosper.org.au>; 'Bernie Hanvey' <bha...@wave.co.nz>; 'John Booth' <joh...@weeklytimes.com.au>; 'Paul Martin' <dire...@ceihg.org>; 'Bill Batt' <albany...@gmail.com>; 'Andrew Keall' <ad.k...@clear.net.nz>; 'Bernie Ogilvy' <b.og...@xtra.co.nz>; "'Carol Wilcox, preferred'" <carol....@labourland.org>; 'Dr Chris Harris' <ce_h...@yahoo.com>; 'Claire Breen' <cbr...@xtra.co.nz>; 'Bryan Pepperell' <bryan.p...@gmail.com>; 'Ewing Caldwell' <ewing.c...@gmail.com>; 'Eric Constantine' <mat...@hyper.net.nz>; 'Dave Wetzel - TheIU' <davewetz...@gmail.com>; 'Don Riley' <ad...@menier.org.uk>; 'Fernando Scornik Gerstein' <lon...@scornik-gerstein.co.uk>; 'Eric Britton' <eric.b...@ecoplan.org>; 'Fr ank de Jong' <fde...@earthsharing.ca>; 'Fred Harrison' <fred.h...@talktalk.net>; 'Gavin Putland' <put...@lvrg.org.au>; 'Jake Himmelstein' <jhimm...@cavtel.net>; 'Godfrey Dunkley' <godfrey...@gmail.com>; 'Dr Hector Sandler' <hsan...@speedy.com.ar>; 'George L Collins' <georg...@aol.com>; 'Gerald Tait' <gera...@slingshot.co.nz>; 'Geoff Forster' <geoff...@netspace.net.au>; 'Helen Drew' <hel...@contact.net.nz>; 'John Poulter' <jj...@bigpond.com>; 'John Massam' <cons...@multiline.com.au>; 'Juston Fenton' <juston...@hp.com>; k...@earthsharing.org.au; 'Kevin Shannon' <kevinmcsh...@telkomsa.net>; 'Josh Vincent' <jos...@urbantools.org>; 'Lars Rindsig' <la...@larsrindsig.dk>; 'ole.lefmann1' <ole.le...@virgin.net>; 'Maurie Fabrikant' <fabm...@optusnet.com.au>; 'Leo Foley' <fol...@gmail.com>; 'Lloyd Churches' <prog...@prosper.org.au>; 'Mark Horsnell' <m12...@xtra.co.nz>; 'mason gaffney' <m.ga...@dslextreme.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:14 AM
*Subject:* Re: the Billion Dollar Question - what is full land rent?
Great, so you've created a private land trust. So I don't understand your hostility to the idea of community land trusts.
Don Newey created a Georgist community near Santa Cruz. As soon as he lost control of the board they voted to reduce the land dues, and retain the rent. Houses went up to market rate, probably around $600-$700,000 currently near Santa Cruz, and only rich hippies can live there now.
You must have done something right to prevent that.
Congratulations.
Gary
>
> BTW, I forgot to say to Gary that our community constitution > requires proceeds on winding up to be
> donated to a similar enterprise -- in other words, shareholders > cannot force a sale of the lands
> to pocket dollar profit.
>
> Also, shares cannot be transferred (but rather only surrendered or > cancelled), so speculators are
> blocked there too.
>
> Shareholders are limited to selling their improvements at a value > independently assessed.
>
>
> DS
>
>> I agree with David Spain. CLTs are a dead end for Georgism. They're
>> 'successful' because, like Arden and Fairhaven they're NOT Georgist. BTW,
>> David's a lawyer, a former officer in the Vietnam war who founded
>> Australia's first commune, which hasn't been sold off for millions, and I
>> don't believe you're arguing for hippy communes instead of Georgism are you,
>> David?
>>
>> - BK
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Gary Flomenhoft [mailto:Gary...@uvm.edu <mailto:Gary...@uvm.edu>]
>> Sent: Sunday, 12 February 2012 1:17 AM
>> Sent: Sunday, 12 February 2012 1:17 AM
>> To: dsp...@spains.com.au <mailto:dsp...@spains.com.au>
>> Cc: Alanna Hartzok; 'Ed Dodson'; Lindy Davies; Scott Baker; 'Deirdre Kent';
>> Bob Keall; David Collyer; Bernie Hanvey; John Booth; Paul Martin; Bill Batt;
>> Andrew Keall; Bernie Ogilvy; Carol Wilcox, preferred; Dr Chris Harris;
>> Claire Breen; Bryan Kavanagh; 'Bryan Pepperell'; Ewing Caldwell; Eric
>> Constantine; Dave Wetzel - TheIU; Don Riley; Fernando Scornik Gerstein; Eric
>> Britton; Fr ank de Jong; 'Fred Harrison'; Gavin Putland; 'Jake Himmelstein';
>> Godfrey Dunkley; Dr Hector Sandler; George L Collins; Gerald Tait; 'Geoff
>> Forster'; 'Helen Drew'; John Poulter; John Massam; Juston Fenton;
>> Cc: Alanna Hartzok; 'Ed Dodson'; Lindy Davies; Scott Baker; 'Deirdre Kent';
>> Bob Keall; David Collyer; Bernie Hanvey; John Booth; Paul Martin; Bill Batt;
>> Andrew Keall; Bernie Ogilvy; Carol Wilcox, preferred; Dr Chris Harris;
>> Claire Breen; Bryan Kavanagh; 'Bryan Pepperell'; Ewing Caldwell; Eric
>> Constantine; Dave Wetzel - TheIU; Don Riley; Fernando Scornik Gerstein; Eric
>> Britton; Fr ank de Jong; 'Fred Harrison'; Gavin Putland; 'Jake Himmelstein';
>> Godfrey Dunkley; Dr Hector Sandler; George L Collins; Gerald Tait; 'Geoff
>> Forster'; 'Helen Drew'; John Poulter; John Massam; Juston Fenton;
>> k...@earthsharing.org.au <mailto:k...@earthsharing.org.au>; Kevin Shannon; Josh Vincent; Lars Rindsig;
>> ole.lefmann1; Maurie Fabrikant; 'Leo Foley'; Lloyd Churches; Mark Horsnell;
>> mason gaffney
>> Subject: Re: the Billion Dollar Question - what is full land rent?
>>
>> Wow! That's an interesting perspective. While LVT reform has gone virtually
>> nowhere in the US, and site rating, and LVT has backslid elsewhere,
>> community land trusts have developed thousands of
>> properties, and taken land off the market to become affordable.
>> Legislation is not required. They can be done privately with little
>> government interference, just like conservation trusts (Nature Conservancy).
>>
>> Your freehold commune if successful, will have their land become extremely
>> valuable, and then will be gentrified and only rich hippies will be able to
>> afford it.
>>
>> Meanwhile our Champlain Housing Trust has removed hundreds of land sites
>> from the market IN PERPETUITY. 75% of the land gains (should be 100%, but
>> no one is perfect) is retained by the trust, NOT BY THE OWNER. This is the
>> essence of Georgism: Take the land rent away from the rentier. The trust
>> then recycles this accumulated land rent into a downpayment for the next
>> owner. What this means is that they buy down the price of the land using
>> accumulated land rent. It is as if the land value never went up since the
>> original purchase of the property, or close to it.
>>
>> For example, In my case the market value of the condo is $156,000, but my
>> mortgage is for $105,000, saving me around $300 per month. The trade off is
>> that I forgo future profit from this property. DS have you forgone future
>> profit from your property like all good Georgists should do?
>>
>> There are many valid strategies and we should welcome them all. A diverse
>> approach is more likely to succeed.
>>
>> GF
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting dsp...@spains.com.au <mailto:dsp...@spains.com.au>:
>>
>>> CLTs are a dead-end compromise with land monopolism, only attractive
>>> to timid urban compromisers.
>>>
>>> Shove them.
>>>
>>> Our hippie commune, like scores of them around here, is incorporated
>>> as a company and owns its land freehold directly without encumbrances.
>>> The company constitution defines & guarantees shareholder rights. Why
>>> complicate things by interleaving trustees & leases? You trying to
>>> kowtow to land price and to make lawyers rich?
>>>
>>>
>>> DS
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Re CLT land lease agreements, the one that best incorporates Georgist
>>>> land rent approach is the School of Living. This lease agreement
>>>> attempts to calculate the CLT rent based on surrounding land value,
>>>> so it contains some formula to do so. You can find it by scrolling
>>>> down in the Appendix of the Land Rights course here:
>>>>
>>>> http://course.earthrights.net/node/78
>>>>
>>>> If you have trouble accessing this you may need to register for the
>>>> course first here: www.course.earthrights.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>>
>>>> From: Gary Flomenhoft
>>>> Date: 2/9/2012 12:29:41 PM
>>>> To: Edward Dodson
>>>> Cc: 'Alanna Hartzok'; 'Lindy Davies'; 'Scott Baker'; 'Deirdre
>>>> Kent'; Bob Keall'; 'David Collyer'; 'Bernie Hanvey'; 'John Booth';
>>>> 'Paul Martin ; 'Bill Batt'; 'Andrew Keall'; 'Bernie Ogilvy';
>>>> 'Carol Wilcox, preferred ; 'Dr Chris Harris'; 'Claire Breen'; 'Bryan
>> Kavanagh'; 'Bryan Pepperell'
>>>> 'David Spain'; 'Ewing Caldwell'; 'Eric Constantine'; 'Dave
>>>> Wetzel - TheIU'; 'Don Riley'; 'Fernando Scornik Gerstein'; 'Eric
>>>> Britton'; 'Frank de Jong'; 'Fred Harrison'; 'Gavin Putland';
>>>> 'Jake Himmelstein'; 'Godfrey Dunkley'; 'Dr Hector Sandler';
>>>> 'George L Collins'; 'Gerald Tait'; 'Geoff Forster'; 'Helen Drew';
>>>> 'John Poulter'; 'John Massam'; 'Juston Fenton';
>>
>>> CLTs are a dead-end compromise with land monopolism, only attractive
>>> to timid urban compromisers.
>>>
>>> Shove them.
>>>
>>> Our hippie commune, like scores of them around here, is incorporated
>>> as a company and owns its land freehold directly without encumbrances.
>>> The company constitution defines & guarantees shareholder rights. Why
>>> complicate things by interleaving trustees & leases? You trying to
>>> kowtow to land price and to make lawyers rich?
>>>
>>>
>>> DS
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Re CLT land lease agreements, the one that best incorporates Georgist
>>>> land rent approach is the School of Living. This lease agreement
>>>> attempts to calculate the CLT rent based on surrounding land value,
>>>> so it contains some formula to do so. You can find it by scrolling
>>>> down in the Appendix of the Land Rights course here:
>>>>
>>>> http://course.earthrights.net/node/78
>>>>
>>>> If you have trouble accessing this you may need to register for the
>>>> course first here: www.course.earthrights.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>>
>>>> From: Gary Flomenhoft
>>>> Date: 2/9/2012 12:29:41 PM
>>>> To: Edward Dodson
>>>> Cc: 'Alanna Hartzok'; 'Lindy Davies'; 'Scott Baker'; 'Deirdre
>>>> Kent'; Bob Keall'; 'David Collyer'; 'Bernie Hanvey'; 'John Booth';
>>>> 'Paul Martin ; 'Bill Batt'; 'Andrew Keall'; 'Bernie Ogilvy';
>>>> 'Carol Wilcox, preferred ; 'Dr Chris Harris'; 'Claire Breen'; 'Bryan
>> Kavanagh'; 'Bryan Pepperell'
>>>> 'David Spain'; 'Ewing Caldwell'; 'Eric Constantine'; 'Dave
>>>> Wetzel - TheIU'; 'Don Riley'; 'Fernando Scornik Gerstein'; 'Eric
>>>> Britton'; 'Frank de Jong'; 'Fred Harrison'; 'Gavin Putland';
>>>> 'Jake Himmelstein'; 'Godfrey Dunkley'; 'Dr Hector Sandler';
>>>> 'George L Collins'; 'Gerald Tait'; 'Geoff Forster'; 'Helen Drew';
>>>> 'John Poulter'; 'John Massam'; 'Juston Fenton';
>>>> k...@earthsharing.org.au <mailto:k...@earthsharing.org.au>; 'Kevin Shannon'; 'Josh Vincent'; 'Lars
>>>> Rindsig'; 'ole.lefmann1'; 'Maurie Fabrikant'; 'Leo Foley'; 'Lloyd
>> Churches'; 'Mark Horsnell'; 'mason gaffney'
>>>> Subject: Re: the Billion Dollar Question - what is full land rent?
>>>>
>>>> Some Community land trusts have land lease agreements. There should
>>>> be lots of legal language there.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Quoting Edward Dodson <ejdo...@comcast.net <mailto:ejdo...@comcast.net>>:
>>>>
>>>>> Alanna asks:
>>>>> Might you list the ways you prefer that government acquire land? And
>>>>> do
>>>> you
>>>>> have a model template government land lease agreement?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ed here:
>>>>> The most effective way to achieve efficient land use without huge
>>>>> public outcries is community-based planning that invites all
>>>>> stakeholders to participate. Then, the community is in a position to
>>>>> direct public
>>>> officials
>>>>> to acquire land for specific purposes, whether for development, to
>>>>> be set aside as open space or parks, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not aware that any of the attorneys at law who have been active
>>>>> in
>>>> the
>>>>> Henry George movement (and there have been quite a few) ever drafted
>>>>> a
>>>> model
>>>>> land lease agreement, but maybe this has been done somewhere at some
>>>>> point
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gary Flomenhoft, BSME, MPP, CEE
>>>> Fellow, Gund Institute for Ecological Economics
>>>> 802-656-2996
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> Gary Flomenhoft, BSME, MPP, CEE
>> Fellow, Gund Institute for Ecological Economics
>> 802-656-2996
>>
>>
>>
>>
--
Gary Flomenhoft, BSME, MPP, CEE
Fellow, Gund Institute for Ecological Economics
802-656-2996
>>>>
>>>>> Alanna asks:
>>>>> Might you list the ways you prefer that government acquire land? And
>>>>> do
>>>> you
>>>>> have a model template government land lease agreement?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ed here:
>>>>> The most effective way to achieve efficient land use without huge
>>>>> public outcries is community-based planning that invites all
>>>>> stakeholders to participate. Then, the community is in a position to
>>>>> direct public
>>>> officials
>>>>> to acquire land for specific purposes, whether for development, to
>>>>> be set aside as open space or parks, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not aware that any of the attorneys at law who have been active
>>>>> in
>>>> the
>>>>> Henry George movement (and there have been quite a few) ever drafted
>>>>> a
>>>> model
>>>>> land lease agreement, but maybe this has been done somewhere at some
>>>>> point
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gary Flomenhoft, BSME, MPP, CEE
>>>> Fellow, Gund Institute for Ecological Economics
>>>> 802-656-2996
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> Gary Flomenhoft, BSME, MPP, CEE
>> Fellow, Gund Institute for Ecological Economics
>> 802-656-2996
>>
>>
>>
>>
--
Gary Flomenhoft, BSME, MPP, CEE
Fellow, Gund Institute for Ecological Economics
802-656-2996
--
Leo Foley
31 Brushy Creek Rd
Lenah Valley, Tas 7008
ph 62 286486
0427 286486
--
Bill Batt
680 North Pearl St., Albany, New York 12204-1729
v: 518-462-5068; fax: 866-492-9804 hwb...@yahoo.com
*The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one*
Archilochus (c.650 B.C.)
Bill Batt
680 North Pearl St., Albany, New York 12204-1729
v: 518-462-5068; fax: 866-492-9804 hwb...@yahoo.com
*The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one*
Archilochus (c.650 B.C.)
--
Frank de Jong
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