Okay, I'll bite. Aside from being easier to edit on a today's systems,
what does the pro hdv crowd argue?

Well, I'm a pro in the sense that I make (part of) my living with  
filmmaking, not in the sense of high budget gear (well, sometimes, if  
rented, but most of the time I use my own stuff). I have a Sony Z1,  
because at the time that was available and the V1, let alone the  
successors of the Z1 were not available. And HDV was quite new than.

I think the difference in not so big as some suggest. That is, speaking of  
the long GOP intercodes used by HDV and AVCHD. THe last one also has, to  
my knowledge, a intracode flavour, like our good old DV. I can imagine  
that one has certain advantages.
AVCHD and other MPEG4 flavours do have a better algorithm, more efficient  
than MPEG2. But I hear, like Perry, many people who denounce AVCHD and are  
still touting HDV.

FWIW,
Ton Guiking

Op Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:54:43 +0200 schreef Joe Parker  
<joepark...@gmail.com>:

That's a very interesting question! I don't have any obvious answers but I
have seen some VERY colorful language on other lists!
I think the actual workflow scenarios and even the simple physical factors
of who has the shots in their briefcase is often overlooked, especially in a
broadcast crew environment. Shooting tapeless makes a lot of sense to a guy
or small crew that takes it all the way through from acquire to edit, but in
a large crew scenario it can become a bit of a nightmare.
The company I work for hires out cameras (+kit) to mostly broadcast crews. I
would say we currently have about 10:1 HDV to solid state handycams. These
are all XDCamEX or P2, we don't do (or have much call for) AVCHD cameras. I
think one major problem with AVCHD is it lacks a recognized 'standard'.

To be fair, I personally don't deal with these cameras. I work exclusively
with 'big' cameras like HDCam. XDCamHD and DVCPRO. As I said, I'm a bit of
an outsider looking in!
Perry Mitchell

I've been reading a lot about using the Canon HFS10 for acquisition in  
conjunction with
1.) HDMI recording to avoid AVCHD issues
2.) SGBlade Depth Of Field adaptor from the UK

Also
1.) HFS10
2.) Magic Bullet for color grading

View this video clip and download the HD version to see it up close.  
The results are truly astonishing.

http://vimeo.com/5400592

Richard

On Jul 27, 2009, at 3:52 PM, Perry Mitchell wrote:

hi Richard,
The footage (and info) you've shared on the HFS10 makes a remarkable
case, because its low price makes it possible to do HD here and now.

The question I have, though, is how well it renders motion (fast
moving cam, or still cam but fast moving object). I wonder if this is
a function of the CAMERA or the CODEC? I'd appreciate a test of this,
if you dont mind - sure would like to see it.

rgds/ RandyQ

 From what I've seen, avoiding AVCHD in the camera permits 4:2:2  
recording and some of the motion artifacts..comparing AVCHD to HDMI  
captured footage side by side.  No question that the HDMI captures
using the same camera are better.  But that does make acquisition more  
difficult because you need
a small computer that accepts a PCI card for the recording device.  
The other thing I'm seeing with
DOF adaptors is they utilize a spinning disc inside for the projected  
image.  This means a little motor
whirring away.  From what I can tell, if you're trying to record audio  
from the camera mic,
then these adaptors aren't for you.  I haven't read user reports or  
experienced this first hand, but common sense seems to say that these  
adaptors make significant noise.

The problem with evaluating these motion captures online is the  
distribution method needed to see them.  All the preview clips are  
compressed and therefore hard to judge..thus downloading the original  
HD clips is necessary, but as I've found on one 200MB clip I  
downloaded, my MacBook Pro can't keep the full 24Mbs going without  
skipping.  Maybe I need an external drive to test this, or run it off  
a memory stick.

Based on what I've seen, the motion artifacts...i.e. shutters is more  
pronounced by the AVCHD codec,
because I don't see them in the HDMI captured footage which is using  
the identical camera and footage.

My camera arrives tomorrow, so I'll be glad to run some tests for you!

Richard

On Jul 27, 2009, at 6:41 PM, Randy Quimpo wrote:

Hey Richard,
What are you using for HDMI captures, a BMD Intensity?  What type of a file
and compression format is the end result after HDMI capture?  (Isn't HDMI
uncompressed, similar to DVI and HD-SDI, i.e. a high bandwidth signal?)

24Mbs playback on MacBook Pro: it may be purely a graphics or decoding
issue.  From what I hear, the graphics chip in many MacBook Pros is not fast
enough for HD playback, and a faster drive may not help.  After all, 24Mbs
is less than 3MB/s and most drives made in the last 5 years should handle
that with ease. I find that on my Windows desktop machine, some compressed
files playback easily in full screen, and some choke down to 2-3fps.  All of
these were 640x480 or smaller resolution.  Natively, without full screen,
both playback fine without choking.

A.

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 7:00 PM, Richard Lin <r...@showcardetailing.com>wrote:

Hi Alex!

I actually haven't done any HDMI captures yet.  I've just been  
following a guy in the UK that has the same camera I'm about to buy  
that has been doing a lot of work with the DOF adaptors and Cineform.  
I believe it is uncompressed.

I can play back 720p footage just fine, but 1080i or p seems just too  
much.

I can't believe how immersed I've become in the last few months....for  
the longest time, DV was "good enough" for me and my customers...then  
I get an HDTV, and discover how great BluRay looks, and then I'm  
watching HD Movies from iTunes...everybody should own a Flip Ultra  
HD...it's as convenient to shoot video as it is to take a picture with  
your iPhone..that really transformed my thinking about doing away with  
digital tape and how good AVCHD is!

 From there, I wanted the convenience of the Flip with real world  
camera features and even better quality!  OMG it never ends!  lol.

Richard

On Jul 27, 2009, at 7:29 PM, Alex G. wrote:

They are also at least an order less reliable than the cameras and often
require a degree in mechanical engineering to put them together!
I suspect that for the occasional DOF use, it would be more cost effective
to invest in a TTL digital stills camera that we were talking about
recently. Of course, if you already have a drawer full of Zeiss Superspeeds
then you will have another opinion!
FWIW
Perry Mitchell

I've been hearing about this great thing called HDMI (mostly from
Richard Lin, haha), but what is it really? Another format option to
record in? If its superior to AVCHD, how do we record in it?

rgds/ RandyQ

--
Randy Quimpo
Corporate Film maker

http://www.q2digitalstudio.com

I guess I'm still stuck on how to capture/import avchd into FCP. I'm  
getting by quite nicely thankyou with DV cameras in my high school  
video lab, but kids are coming in with all kinds of cameras.  I  
understand the long GOP issues with AVCHD, and FCP7 in particular is  
supposed to handle all kinds of formats on the timeline, but the  
ProRes workflow seems to be a hassle.

Neil Poese

On Jul 27, 2009, at 8:55 PM, Richard Lin wrote:

HDMI is one type of uncompressed video and audio connections.
It is common for HD devices, including PS3, newer Blu-ray players,
HDTV LCD Panels.
Video card with HDMI connections is also available, like :
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

Actually it's not a format.  It's a method of gaining access to the  
video signal akin to SDI.

You've seen the big bundle of component cables from a professional  
deck along with audio cables right?  Combine all of them into a single  
digital cable with connectors slimmer than a USB and you've got HDMI.

Recording directly from the camcorder via HDMI is kind of like the old  
days of recording the camera output of a pro SVHS camera to a better  
format like D9 using s-video.  The camera was capable of recording  
better video than the recording medium which was the limiting factor.  
But now with HDMI we do it digitally.

However I am unclear as to what format or file type it is...as Alex  
had questioned.

The Black Magic Design Intensity retails for $199, so it's not that  
expensive to have the capability...it works on either the Mac or PC.

Richard

On Jul 28, 2009, at 7:48 AM, Randy Quimpo wrote:

I see - so the question is what you record the HDMI data into, and how
do you edit with it. Is this what that Black Magic thingy does? I
thought thats just an interface?

Neil, may I ask, why is ProRes workflow a hassle?

(AJA Ki Pro and IO HD might just handle everything you throw at them - as
long as the end result is in ProRes :D)
A.

Oh I forgot to mention that manufacturers like HDMI because it also  
utilizes copy protection known as HDCP.  Copy Protected media like HD  
movies from Apple iTunes will prevent any signal from displaying.  
However for our own use, there are no restrictions.

I bought a DVD player for under $100 that has HDMI outputs for my  
Samsung HDTV.  As was mentioned, my PS3 also has HDMI outputs.

So does the Flip Ultra HD, even though it's a mini HDMI.  I made sure  
my new Canon HFS10 also had an HDMI connector.

Richard

On Jul 28, 2009, at 7:48 AM, Randy Quimpo wrote:

Bingo.  HDMI is uncompressed, and is primarily an interface (not a file
format) that combines up to 1080p video and multiple channels of audio.  No
timecode as far as I know.  BMD Intensity will capture it uncompressed, and
so will AJA Kona LHi.
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:06 AM, Randy Quimpo <randy.qui...@gmail.com>wrote:

I see - its uncompressed 1080p video. When the BMD captures it, does
it save a QT file? I can imagine this thing is impossibly heavy to
edit.

--
Randy Quimpo
Corporate Film maker

http://www.q2digitalstudio.com

The specs say this:

Processing      
Colorspace Conversion   Hardware based real time.
HD Down Conversion      Real time 1080HD and 720HD to standard definition  
during video playback.
Real time standard definition to 1080HD and 720HD during video capture.
Real time effects       Apple Final Cut Pro™ internal effects on Mac OS X™.
Adobe® Premiere Pro® internal effects in DV, MJPEG and uncompressed  
edit formats.

Windows™ and Mac OS X™ Compatible

Plug into Windows™ or Mac OS X™ computers with the same card, and use  
your favorite software, including Final Cut Pro™, Premiere Pro, After  
Effects, Photoshop, Fusion™ and many more. Intensity is fully  
DirectShow™ and QuickTime™ compatible, which adds HDMI capture and  
playback ability to your computer. DirectShow and QuickTime™ allows  
Intensity to work with a wide range of software for editing, design  
and paint, through to the exciting video utility software that allows  
custom desktop based video solutions. Blackmagic Media Express is also  
included for easy capture and playback of real time HD and SD video.

Professional Video Standards

Instantly switch between HD and SD video standards including HDTV  
1080i/59.94, 1080i/50, 720p/59.94, 720p/50, NTSC and PAL. Intensity  
allows capture in professional file formats which are fully compatible  
with Blackmagic Design’s DeckLink and Multibridge capture cards, so  
you can deliver finished television programs, music videos and other  
work at broadcast standards.

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

On Jul 28, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Randy Quimpo wrote:

 From what I see here on Aja's website:

Use the KONA LHi hardware-based flexible connectivity to capture to  
QuickTime™ at 10-bit and 8-bit uncompressed formats as well as Apple  
ProRes 422, DVCPRO HD and more.

The AJA KONA LHi bridges the gap between legacy analog devices and the  
latest 3G SDI and HDMI v1.3a enabled products. KONA LHi interfaces  
with the latest PCIe Apple Mac OSX hardware and QuickTime software  
applications. AJA drivers offer integrated support for Apple Final Cut  
Studio. KONA LHi allows editing, monitoring and mastering of  
professional quality video in an affordable, easy to use product.

KONA LHi offers a full host of no-compromise features: 10 or 8-bit  
uncompressed video, 3G/HD/SD SDI I/O including support for 1080p50/60,  
analog composite/S-Video/SD-HD component video I/O, 2-channel AES/8-
channel SDI embedded audio I/O, 2-channel balanced audio I/O, and  
broadcastquality hardware-based up/down/cross-conversion for flexible  
SD and HD post production. Also, HDMI v1.3a capability at 30 bits per  
pixel allows full support of the latest 10-bit monitors.

More reading:

http://dv411.com/konacards.html

Richard

On Jul 28, 2009, at 8:12 AM, Alex G. wrote:

Jeez, the BMD and the like makes me feel like I've been living in a
cave for the past few years.

I know the feeling!!

Here's more info on what the output is of the BMD

  Uncompressed HD video will require some hefty hard drive support,  
however, with multiple drives striped in a fast RAID. This proposition  
has the potential for making uncompressed HD capture a fairly  
complicated and resource intensive procedure for day-to-day use.  
Blackmagic recognizes this and will also allow you to capture into a  
variety of other compressed HD formats, such as DVCPRO HD and  
Blackmagic's own Online JPEG codec. Capturing to these codecs  
drastically cuts down on the computing resources necessary for editing  
HD video. One clear advantage for small camcorders using the AVCHD  
format is the ability to take your video and transcode it to a format  
that is easier to edit, as few video editing packages currently  
support AVCHD video.

http://www.videomaker.com/article/13256/2/

Richard

On Jul 28, 2009, at 8:21 AM, Randy Quimpo wrote:

It's not heavy to edit at all as long as the system is set up to edit
uncompressed, i.e. has fast storage, gobs of RAM and decent graphics.  As
Perry mentioned earlier, the codec couldn't have been any simpler, but it
does eat 1TB disks for breakfast. :)

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:14 AM, Randy Quimpo <randy.qui...@gmail.com>wrote:

Hi Randy!

I've been following Richard's posts too -- he's got me sold on
the Flip!

HDMI is just a connector/cable for consumer HD gear - for hooking
things like Blu-Ray decks to HD televisions.

I haven't used any of this HD gear yet, but have been extensively
studying it as we are going to move our little production company
over to HD some time this year.

My guess is that Richard is playing the footage out of the HDMI
port on his camera into an AJA/Other box to capture in FCP.
AVCHD, and Panasonic's pro oriented AVC-Intra, is very pretty
(have demo'd it). But the compression scheme is very complex and
brings computers to a crawl when editing. In the old days, the
disks couldn't keep up; now it's the CPUs!

I'm wondering if the stuttering he is seeing is due to the
computer choking on playback? Or maybe due to a poor
render/transcode into another codec? When he captures via HDMI
out into FCP, the footage gets transcoded to a codec like ProRes
that is easier for the editing computer to play back.

My thoughts, anyway.... will have to let Richard speak for
himself once he wakes up over there on the other side of the Pacific!

Tim Selander
Tokyo, Japan

No sooner do I post this, then a bunch of new posts come in from
the man himself with all the details -- Hi Richard. You're up early!

Tim